Player “Roles” in Group Dungeons?

Doctordarkspawn

geonsocal wrote: »

I really appreciate everyone's input and feedback...

the group dungeon aspect of the game is still something I'm not all that familiar with...

@Doctordarkspawn ...so, I take it you are not using the "optimal" class for tanking: dragon knight, but, rather a templar for a tank...

i haven't had a chance yet to run a dungeon with a coordinated group (1 healer, 1 tank, 2 dps)...but, it would seem that while you are just running with random folks doing dailies or grinding for gear - it's best to have a tank that can heal, and a healer that can tank...also, if you're main focus is on dealing damage - you need to make sure you can also heal and shield yourself...

Here's the thing.

DPS is not allowed the same leeway the other roles are. If a DPS is not souly commited to DPS, that DPS is likely to get kicked. Tank and healer have a little more leeway outside of vet trials, at which everything gets sacrificed because that content does not allow for it.

MEBengalsFan2001

failkiwib16_ESO wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

I know exactly how you feel, Geonsocal.

I'm a PVP-er. I hate the idea of farming dungeons for loot. But I'd like to experience all the content in game - so would like to do all dungeons once - with the quest and exploring every nook and cranny.

But from what I've seen in other MMO's, most PVE-ers just want speed-runs of content they've done a million times over and often don't have the patience for the wide-eyed dungeon-virgin.
For me the result is just not bothering. I don't want to slow others down, and I don't want to feel rushed. I don't want my first run at a particular dungeon to be stressful (and therefore spoiled) because of the other players.

Also on the roles.. another thing that's put me off is not really having one. As a pvp-er, that's my build. I've not really been around long enough to have built up multiple sets for different roles, and to understand those roles. I wear heavy armour, use s+b and ransack as my main attack. That would make me a tank I guess - but I'm certainly not running with capped resists/maxed hp and whatever else a tank should have. I'm just what I'd probably call a front-line dd in pvp. I do steady damage, can take steady damage, can escape when need be. Funny thing is, I can solo a number of vet dungeons, but am afraid to group for them as I don't know my role!

@Biro123 well Ransack in PVE is a taunt and only used by tanks to take aggro from heavy hitting mobs and bosses - I would advice you against using that skill in pve, unless you actually join as a tank.

Most people don't mind you running whatever build, as long as you can to a certain degree deliver on your role. If you choose all 3 roles, you get a small notification about it when you get pushed into a group via the grouping tool - change your skills according to that. You can also join groups outside of grouping tool and ask people what role they need.
tank/heal
tank/dd
heal/dd
tank
heal
dd (It's possible for hybrids to pull 17k-25k dps as pure DD.)

A few of my pvp friends run builds like yours, and just switch out their skills depending on the groups needs, and it works just fine. Most dungeons don't require BiS gear or specific amount of resistances, extremely high dps or anything like that, it just requires a little l2p untill you get experienced enough to remember mechanics.

If you sound nice in general and ask people to explain you dungeons, they will be more than willing to do so - specially if you run them as a tank or healer. But let your group know that you are new before it's too late. (Certain dungeons like veteran WGT requires that you have minimum 1 ranged attack to kill 7k hp portals with very fast, and the endboss have a lot of 1-shot mechanics ...so always let your group know in advance, before you suddenly start wiping at the end of a dungeon)

One shot mechanics, HOW AWESOME!....

I hate that crap.....Does the game at least give a tell sign when the boss is doing it one shot mechanic....

lehran

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

One shot mechanics, HOW AWESOME!....

I hate that crap.....Does the game at least give a tell sign when the boss is doing it one shot mechanic....

Usually, yes. Depends on the boss, some of them are very fast and you have very little time to react, other times you see them a mile off. Sometimes there's no tell for the mechanic itself, but it's consistently right after some other attack, so you need to know the boss's rotation to be able to effectively counteract it.

Edit: There is no specific tell for "this attack is a oneshot", you just have to know which attacks you need to do your best to block/avoid (depends on the attack). All of the oneshots generally have the regular tells though (red on ground if AoE, white/red sparks for blockable/interruptable attacks). If the boss is really nice, they'll even tell you what you need to do right before it happens.

Asardes

Tank and healer matter a lot in dungeons. As DD it's likely that 20-40% of your DPS output comes from ground based AoE DoTs. If you don't have a tank to aggro and hold the mobs together they move away and DPS drops like a rock. Also, if nobody aggroes and CCs the mobs they'll usually go for you and slam you in the face. You would have to interrupt your attacks to block unless you want to die, as bosses hit well above healer & DD HP and even some mobs hit close to that, which also leads to significant DPS drop. In this game recovery and maximum damage subtract from each other. If you want maximum damage you have to decrease recovery and vice versa. If there isn't a healer there to run repentance, shards, elemental drain, orbs, you will run out of resources pretty fast, if your build is optimized for maximum damage. Also critical chance matters a lot for DDs because critical hits down the enemies faster, doing at least +50% more damage. That's why you would see DDs with 60-90% critical chance from thief mundus and various passives. It also matters for healers. Because a good healer relies on HoTs, not spamming bust heals which are expensive. If HoTs consistently crit, and you have high spell damage and maximum magicka, you would not need to use burst heals that often. Also sustain in heavy armor is crap in PvE. In PvP you can afford to get hit often, and recover resources from the constitution passive because the damage is cut in half by battle spirit. But in PvE you don't get hit as often, and when you do, you are getting hit hard. All cost reduction, recovery, critical chance passives are tied to wearing light or medium armor, and the most important of them require you wear at least 5 pieces. Wearing 5/1/1 as healer and magicka DD is optimal, stamina DDs run 0/7/0 or 0/6/1 - that works too. But a healer or DD with 5+ pieces of heavy armor would struggle in any veteran dungeon. Sure they can be done, but they will be very frustrating with such a build around.

ArchMikem

geonsocal wrote: »

well, being the avid pvper that I am – I reacted in the only way I could think of – I started trying to “bash” both of the other two players in the group (it may have just been one of the two whom put up that vote – but, I was a little irked at the moment)…

To be honest, I skimmed some parts, but that's where you lost me.

geonsocal

good stuff @Asardes...I'm learning to appreciate you dungeon explorers more and more...

just started doing dailies - made the mistake of trying to do spindleglutch II...ugh, I hate spiders...

my group got wiped over and over at the last boss...we had no healer (3 templars, and 1 mag sorc, who kept trying to hide in a corner), but, no dedicated healer...I tried tanking, but, wasn't really able to do that great a job...

dang that last boss was tough...

man, I'm starting to understand the learning curve involved with doing more "challenging" group content...particularly those "one shot" boss mechanics...

I am happy though that after over a year and a half in the game there is "new" content for me to sink my teeth in...

@ArchMikem ...you're too funny

geonsocal

quick question please...recently tried adapting my pvp magplar into a dungeon healer...currently 5 light/2 heavy...1 light monster helm, 4 light julianos + both staffs, 5 rattlecage...

I'd like to find a more heal friendly alternative to rattlecage, will use 3 jewels and 2 armor...if at all possible, would like to farm it overland...thanks...

Calluna

Synfaer wrote: »

Most groups don't mind if you say you want to do the quest at the start of the dungeon, otherwise its usually just a smash & grab.

Actually, a Dev posted the stats on the Chests with a pretty chart and everything. Its about 12.5% chance for each trait to drop. Still a 25% chance for Training/Prosperous, but it's not 90%

Yep I can make a pretty chart too, doesn't have to rely on raw data to be impressive either. I've been on plenty of dungeon runs where EVERY bit of gear looted was either prosperous or training. Here are some stats for you; I have completed 18 runs of FG1 this week, to show for it, I have 6 training helms, 7 prosperous helms, 2 Well fitted, 2 reinforced and 1 Impenetrable. Yes its too small a sample to be relevant but its my version of the pretty chart and it happens too frequently to be even remotely funny anymore.

And I have never seen that in all the dungeons I have run. So.... RNG

Asardes

Rattlecage is pretty bad set for PvE. Mainly because it has healthy jewelry and all your heals scale on maximum magicka and spell damage. You get indeed a bit more health but that doesn't really help a lot. If you get hit hard you are going to die. 17-18K is all you need unless you keep doing stupid things like standing in AoE or not blocking. You only save one slot on your bar and that's not that vital. Actually you can slot structured entropy exactly to gain more health on one of your bars if you have trouble. For starters you can use something like 5 Seducer or Julianos, 2 Torug's pact and a mismatched monster set that gives you more spell power. Willpower jewelry is superior to rattlecage in every way. It can be bought cheaply now with arcane trait. Later on you can start farming SPC and replacing some of your crafted pieces until you get 5 pieces, for the group buff bonus.

geonsocal wrote: »

good stuff @Asardes...I'm learning to appreciate you dungeon explorers more and more...

just started doing dailies - made the mistake of trying to do spindleglutch II...ugh, I hate spiders...

my group got wiped over and over at the last boss...we had no healer (3 templars, and 1 mag sorc, who kept trying to hide in a corner), but, no dedicated healer...I tried tanking, but, wasn't really able to do that great a job...

Are you sure it wasn't actually Spindleclutch 1? Spindleclutch 2 has no spiders and the boss is very easy. Spindle 1 has one shot "spit" mechanic and I understand why staying alive without healer is so hard. Even with blocking that boss hits pretty hard. In that fight shields are necessary. Preferably harness/dampen magicka because blazing shield scales on maximum health, not magicka and it will only amount to 5-6K. Also going in a dungeon without dedicated healer is a bad idea. You can drop the tank for most and run with 3 DDs but someone should at least be part time healer.

geonsocal

@Asardes ...as always - big thanks, when you speak - i try to make sure to listen...think I actually have a spare set of willpower in the bank...

now that I've started actually doing daily pledges i'm starting to get my monster sets together...

did not know blazing shield scales off of health, not magicka...good stuff...

I'm pretty sure it was spindle II that we crashed on, but, could be wrong...

spindle I was actually yesterday's daily and got the chance to finally beat the whisperer...it was funny, we had no tank (i was healing ) and, it ended up taking us quite a bit of time to beat that ugly deadric spider thing...

it was really cool though, nobody bailed or tried to kick anyone...we ended up using the "four corners" strategy and just basically all spread out to keep more than one or two players dying at a time...

gotta be honest - it was one of the better "feelings" of accomplishment in the game in quite some time...

been playing eso for over a year and a half now, and - i am finally "born again" undaunted

thank you very.much for taking the time to help and guide me along @Asardes - much appreciated...those poor folks whom get stuck in a dungeon with me will definitely appreciate your advice also I'm sure...

Riejael

I did a White Gold Tower normal yesterday that was sort of funny.

I'm running a new healer (nightblade, was kinda inspired by a thread about a week ago about them, fun as hell to play too) build with a friend running.. DPS sorc of some sort. Can't remember if Stam or Mag, switches back and forth. Either way we're both under 30. Another guy is about low 30 something and tank is CPsomething I think it was 300+

Anyway I start seeing.. 'issues' on the first boss, The Adjudicator, you know the boss with the lockpicking. The 30something DPS dies twice there. And not from being caged. No biggie. First time we rez him. Then he dies again near the end of the fight. He doesn't rez. Claims that healers can rez without stones.

Ok.. newbie there... not too much of an issue. Educate him that if he can rez himself he should use his own stone in the future, battle rez is when you don't. Courtesy thing. He claims he's new and apologizes for the ignorance.

Why is that an issue? Before the next boss the newbie says the next boss is tough and a group of lowbies like this one may have trouble. Really.. you don't know about how soulstones work but you know the bosses in WGT? Well I explained to him that all the normal dungeons can easily be done by anyone who can get in them.

Guess he was really a newbie who had 'issues' with WGT in the past because he said, "I'll believe you" and trucked onward. Did well all the way until the Planar Inhibitor, had one wipe there. Tank wanted to try a weird strat and on the second time I just told my buddy over TS to just go back to the regular one of switching pinions and it worked.

Reason I bring all this up is on the last boss. The newbie DPS died midway. Not sure to what. I think he tunneled an add and exploded (which he avoided in the beginning of the fight, seen vet players do this lol). And I told my friend over TS again.. just leave him down. Cruel, but rezing in the fight is dangerous for the rezer. Boss easily three mannable. Most bosses are in many cases. Meaning you don't actually need a fully vet/geared group for normals.

Also the run was relatively quick. Quicker than booting a poor newbie and screwing them out of loot (and forcing them into another queue) that will help them and trying to find another random. You see I find that low levels don't all equal newbies. And even when they do, its a learning experience. Lets say you boot lowbies. All newbie lowbies just get booted period.

You know what that does? It means they get to CP300-600 and join your vet groups not knowing fights. That's why veteran dungeons are a PITA to PUG. Hell I've seen 500+ CPs do dumb noob stuff in NORMAL. Quite often in fact. Its rare I get a group that doesn't have a newbie learning, or a veteran derping. There's always one. I can deal with newbies. They can learn and adapt. Derps can't.

PVPers like the OP I haven't seen much that I can tell. I don't mind people who lag behind looking at stuff. Maybe its a RPer checking stuff out or whatever. As long as its not the tank or healer (it usually isn't). I'll just forge on ahead, they catch up by the time we get to a boss. No big deal. Stuff dies fast enough with AOEs anyway that I hardly notice they aren't there. So it doesn't slow anything down.

People get too serious with NORMAL dungeons at times. A group of level 10-15 newbies CAN do White Gold Tower, Cradle of Shadows, and even Imperial City Prison. Now they DO need a bit of coordination (an amount a PUG can easily do), an open mind, patience, and the ability to adapt. So having a vet or two in the group makes it easy mode. The fight doesn't need to be done in a progression manner, the strat is already known. A few tries and a newbie can master the mechanics.

"But I want muh fast run!"

Yeah I've done those 'hard' DLC dungeons with vets. You all screw up once in a while and cause wipes. 2-3 wipes per dungeon from vets is the same as 2-3 wipes from newbies learning. Imagine that.

Normal DLC dungeons are NOT freaking hard. They're not. Period. They're tricky, they require something other than tunneling a boss in a tank and spank. But that doesn't make them hard.

They're only hard for people used to keyboard turning and mouse clicking abilities.

geonsocal

Riejael wrote: »

I did a White Gold Tower normal yesterday that was sort of funny.
Its rare I get a group that doesn't have a newbie learning, or a veteran derping. There's always one. I can deal with newbies. They can learn and adapt. Derps can't.

i'm just starting to learn some of the social dynamics of group/pledge dungeons...it would seem that for the most part - i'm the dungeon "newbie" ...although at least i have enough resources at this point in the game to gear up and have at it (plus, i'm learning with a buddy which makes it fun)...

a little surprised no one mics up for the most part (until things start going wrong - then it's "who's the healer", "who's the tank")...

still new, but, the most fun was having to figure out how to beat the whisperer without a dedicated tank, or, having a very coordinated/experienced group...

haven't taken my dps guys into a pledge dungeon yet...i'd like to work on the healer and tank roles first...

i am looking forward though to seeing some more "unique" behaviors while in a dungeon...so far i've only seen a mag sorc who kept wanting to hide in a corner on the final boss (terrible tank on that run - me, so, the hiding in the corner strategy, not so effective); and, the nightblade who got frustrated when we first wiped and started "ambushing" into the boss before anyone else in the group was ready...

i'm looking forward to working at "gittin gud" with the group dungeons...

IcyDeadPeople

geonsocal wrote: »

quick question: does the rattlecage buff and entropy buff stack?

20% buff to spell damage with major sorcery from rattlecage stacks with 20% empower damage on next attack from might of the guild passive.

hamgatan

Moral of the story is high CP has never been an indication of skill/talent/experience. Anyone (with no real world responsibilities) can grind out 1000+ CP but it doesn't mean they're any good.

There are hundreds of pugs out there with huge CP who are frankly s**thouse at the game. Like the 900CP healer I got the other night who barely dropped a single heal (FTC confirmed).

Best way to avoid pugs.. find a long term established guild with a core group and *** the group finder off altogether. It's a magnet for trouble.

Wrecking_Blow_Spam

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

geonsocal wrote: »

quick question: does the rattlecage buff and entropy buff stack?

20% buff to spell damage with major sorcery from rattlecage stacks with 20% empower damage on next attack from might of the guild passive.

This quote is misleading.
If you mean does 20% major sorcery from rattle cage stack with 20% major sorcery from entropy - no they don't stack.
Can't stack the same major buff.
Rattle cage means you can drop entropy and have another skill slot.

Asardes

geonsocal wrote: »

spindle I was actually yesterday's daily and got the chance to finally beat the whisperer...it was funny, we had no tank (i was healing ) and, it ended up taking us quite a bit of time to beat that ugly deadric spider thing...

it was really cool though, nobody bailed or tried to kick anyone...we ended up using the "four corners" strategy and just basically all spread out to keep more than one or two players dying at a time....

The tactic I always use on the final boss in Spindle 2, the jumping vampire, is to stack on him and simply block when he starts jumping. The mechanic is pretty simple and there's warning before he does it, some sort of hissing noise. When I do that dungeon sometimes people die at the mid boss, the one that puts the red circle around you, because they stack together, one gets the circle, and it hits the one next to him.

Asardes

Last night someone from my friends list wanted me to tank VICP. I mostly gave up running dungeons because I have almost all sets that I need, and only run them regularly when I have a new vet char needing the skill points and the undaunted rank, but I'm always happy to help someone from my list, as they are skilled people. So I thought. I saw the rest of the group was CP400+ and I thought that in half an hour I will get 2 easy keys - this is the typical run time I'm used to, but I've finished in as little as 18 minutes with a group once.

But people just played so badly that it took more than an hour to reach the end boss, with many wipes along the way, with repeated failures of the same mechanic at every boss. We almost wiped at the Flesh Sculptor because at the end I had about 4 atronachs on me together on the boss. The Abomination was awful because people kept stepping on the ground circles and getting one shotted despite the fact I explained that mechanic. I was wearing Ebon Armory so they all had 1K extra health, and using the ultimate on my front bar - Replenishing Barrier - much more often that I'm used to to simply prevent even more wipes. I usually keep it there just for the magicka recovery bonus and I'm running with between 1.5-1.8K in that department, depending on CP distribution but 90% of the time I switch to back bar when I have 250 ult and deploy Aggressive Warhorn. I can manage one of those about 40-45s due to the fact I'm also wearing 5 Tava's Blessing and 2 Bloodspawn and hitting Ingenous Shield every 5-6s. Even with high Warhorn uptime there were plenty of deaths and even trash packs took a long time to clear. I was starting to tire. On Lord Warden we didn't even reach 50% because people just fell in portals, got machinegunned - I told them to mind the portals and slot Harness Magicka when I saw them hit so hard but they didn't listen and continued playing awfully. I told them I will only try 3 more times - we had wiped about 10 times by that time and had spent 1.5h in the dungeon - but thing just continued at the same pace. Finally I gave up.

At the end I was so pissed I put them all on my ignore list. There's really no excuse for reaching CP500 and playing that bad, and I don't need to waste my time with such people in the game. I would happily help new people, who are 1-50 or low CP, advising them on their build, even crafting gear and consumables for them for free or at very low prices, but if someone has reached almost CP cap and is still a scrub I have no such patience.

sumisu1

crappy DDs that queue for tank… urrgh frustrating

Riejael

geonsocal wrote: »

i'm just starting to learn some of the social dynamics of group/pledge dungeons...it would seem that for the most part - i'm the dungeon "newbie" ...although at least i have enough resources at this point in the game to gear up and have at it (plus, i'm learning with a buddy which makes it fun)...

You guys learning the ropes together? Believe it or not thats not a bad thing. You get a different point of view while learning. When I came back in November, 3 of my friends and I did quite a few dungeons. We learned all of the DLC fights on our own. Did rather well. Our strats were different then the ones used by regular groups on a few fights.

Like on the Overfiend in Imperial City Prison. We found having a ranged DPS offtank the Harvester add makes it REALLY easy on the tank. But no one uses that strat. Hell I had one DPS get utterly offended one time when I suggested it. "Just DPS it down," is what they said over and over in CAPS a few times. Yeah no ----, you kinda have to do DPS to get a mobs attention when you don't have a taunt. /facepalm.

still new, but, the most fun was having to figure out how to beat the whisperer without a dedicated tank, or, having a very coordinated/experienced group...

New players have to learn by doing. That's why I won't boot lowbies in normal dungeons. Does it suck that they have to learn the DLC mechanics? Not as much as a vet who knows them and fails, IMO. No I'd rather the earlier a newbie learns a dungeon, the better.

In other MMORPGs, lowbies won't see dungeons till near max level. And they have ALOT to catch up when they get there. That's not fun. Its best they learn early while they still have less investment and can make easy changes.

haven't taken my dps guys into a pledge dungeon yet...i'd like to work on the healer and tank roles first...

Pledges aren't any harder than normal dungeons. Because well.. its the same dungeons. The reward of the pledge changes depending on if you do it in Normal or Veteran mode. So feel free to use your DPS in normal pledges. When you're ready to move on to Vet you'll know.

i am looking forward though to seeing some more "unique" behaviors while in a dungeon...so far i've only seen a mag sorc who kept wanting to hide in a corner on the final boss (terrible tank on that run - me, so, the hiding in the corner strategy, not so effective); and, the nightblade who got frustrated when we first wiped and started "ambushing" into the boss before anyone else in the group was ready...

i'm looking forward to working at "gittin gud" with the group dungeons...

Your attitude lends me to believe that it won't take long and you might be better than you think. Patience, open mindedness, and a good attitude are great when doing PUG dungeons. I've had many groups have two or three leave because of each other. And then replacements come in and its smooth sailing.

I don't normally leave a dungeon because the way I see it, it doesn't get easier just because you left the group. I played Everquest in some of the early days. Back then you put a random group together and then did what you could with what you had. If you had a Ranger, Shaman, two Rogues, an Enchanter, and a Magician. You let the Ranger tank and the Shaman heal. Sure it wasn't a Warrior, Paladin, or Shadowknight tanking or a Cleric healing. But it could work.

In ESO pretty much a tank is a dude with a Taunt. At least in normals. Normals are pretty damn easy and allow flexibility. Veterans can be a different story. But low levels and newbies aren't in veterans. Noobs are, aka vets that act like newbies. But that's a different topic entirely.

Asardes

Well, there is more than one successful tactic for the Overfiend. The most common are:

1) Draw him just past the room entrance gate and turn him to one of the side walls so his cleave attack doesn't hit the DDs. Then lay a CC around to catch the mobs as they enter. As DK I usually lay down Cinder Storm and also Choking Talon the mobs when more stack there. The Harvester spawns at 50% health. It's too tall to pass the door frame, so it's kinda stuck there. Which can be a good or a bad thing. Sometimes you can't taunt or bash it to interrupt because you can't target its hit box trough the fence and the margin or error to avoid the "bouncing ball" attack, which is not interruptible and can one shot. The good thing is that you AoE everything together, for a very short fight.

2) Tank the boss near the "window" on the right, which is the Harvester spawn point. The advantage here is that you can grab the latter as it comes out and tank them together. But the adds will mostly pile up in the middle of the room. The trick here is to burn the adds as they come, then burn the boss, as their spawns are linked to his health bar. It's a pretty slow but safe tactic.

3) Tank the boss in the middle, and AoE together with the adds as they come out, then move and grab the harvester as it comes out and tank them together. This is also pretty quick if you have good AoE, especially if you can chain the straddler adds close to the Overfiend and the Harvester so they die in AoE too.

Enslaved

@Asardes
Don't you have slotted ranged taunt on back bar?

Asardes

Enslaved wrote: »

@Asardes
Don't you have slotted ranged taunt on back bar?

I have it but you need to be close to the harvester to interrupt. You can use that to grab it, but always move to melee range fast to be able to interrupt her. Taunting without interrupting actually doesn't help much because people still get CCd and hit by her attacks. I actually don't slot range taunt for this fight, because the short term taunt from chains is more than enough for a few seconds pull. It's also free since the Havester is immovable.