Player “Roles” in Group Dungeons?

Asardes

Had one heavy armor "healer" in a dungeon. Had to slot vigor to pull it trough. But were lowbies, something like level 20 or so, and picking heavy armor was understandable. It kinda looks cooler than other types at low level, especially for people who just came into the game. I guess that setup could work still in normal dungeons, if the other 3 players have some self heal. But in a veteran dungeon I'd kick any person using mainly heavy armor and not being a tank.

geonsocal

Asardes wrote: »

But in a veteran dungeon I'd kick any person using mainly heavy armor and not being a tank.

oh, that's really good to know @Asardes ...seriously, not being a dungeon type person - i wouldn't have had any clue - it's kinda like getting ready to head out on the town for the night and having a friend tell you you're outfit looks absolutely crazy (and not in a good way)...

I don't use any stat counters on my screen (the only thing displayed are player health bars)...I'm guessing though that most of the more "tuned in" players can see exactly what type of build you have based on the numbers you generate...

just went through all the eso sets - hmmmm, not too much group "healing" love with anything in heavy (other than the passive on the ebony set)...

I do want to be able to have a couple of characters set up and able to do dungeon content...

is there any kind of effective heavy armor build you can think of - or, is it pretty much: templar, 5 pieces of light, resto staff?

Asardes

Stamina DD at least 5/7 medium
Magicka DD or Healer at least 5/7 light
Tank at least 5/7 heavy

If you like heavy maybe tanking would suit you better.

geonsocal

@Asardes ...tanking seems to be the easiest of the "roles" to achieve (I kinda have one SnB tank type already)...

ugh, for solo play the heavy really helps a bunch...

I don't know - maybe it's time to level up my light armor skill line and at least have him set up to change out his gear for dungeons (my magsorc has a set of Julianos he hardly ever wears, i'll start with that)...I already have a couple of light armor wearers in cyro - it's kind of a pain - you literally can never really stand still in battle...

oh well, at least his name will better suit the set of cut up curtains he'll wear inside of dungeons...

Asardes

geonsocal wrote: »

@Asardes ...tanking seems to be the easiest of the "roles" to achieve (I kinda have one SnB tank type already)...

ugh, for solo play the heavy really helps a bunch...

Nope. Tanking really hard content, like the dungeons in the newest DLC is quite challenging. It's full of one shot mechanics, DoTs, CCs, you need to interrupt a lot, and spread your attention to quite a number of things at the same time. Even some of the old dungeons were beefed up to the point where you actually need a tank to prevent the group being torn to pieces. And even the tank can be killed if he does not pay attention - for example run away from AoE. Actually VoM is still one that can be done without a tank.

And heavy armor does not help solo play. I've leveled a hybrid tank in heavy armor trough all the vanilla game questing areas and even took him to lower Craglorn, but killing stuff and managing resources compared to my current build was real PITA. Took forever to kill even the trash. Now I can kill stuff much faster in my medium armor and 2H, on a full stamina build. I actually have exactly 0 points in health on my main and still manage to tank everything thanks to my enchanted armor. I can swap to DD in an instant with the help of an addon. One of the DLC dungeons actually requires the tank to go DD.

geonsocal

what the heck @Asardes - are we even playing the same game

I have 7 characters now - i mostly pvp with them, but, I'd like to become at least a little bit semi-competent with a few of them in group play situations...

so, I'm okay with switching up my builds to try to optimize them a little better for a specific "role"...

geez, I started this thread off thinking player roles in group dungeon was no big thing; and, you got me thinking 180 degrees in the other direction

GoBlue275

Just thought I would post today's experience using the group finder.

I decided I was going to farm for a better trait on my Bloodspawn Helm. No friends are online, so I que up for Spindle 2 on my Tank. I instantly get a group with a 720 and 684 DPS a 282 Healer and myself a 480 DK Tank.

We do the meet and greet and start the dungeon. The first guy to kill is a single trash mob. It took what felt like 2-3 min to kill it. I figured ok, no worries everyone is just waking up. I noticed all the trash pulls are taking a while but wasnt really paying attention to how bad it was. I knew Bloodspawn was coming on the next pull so I turned on Combat Metrics. Boy that was a bad move on my part. I was blowing horns, doing debuffs, and casting molton arms (Like a tank should). What I seen was the group had a TOTAL of 13k DPS... I had 3497 of that...

I asked one of the DPS if he had anything besides bow attack spam. His reply was he is a debuffer DPS and thats why our DPS is so high. I left it at that knowing what was coming next.

We made it to the Lich guy that starts off with 4 waves of adds. We could not kill the first wave before the second spawned and again the 3rd and 4th. I was tanking the 3rd and 4th wave with the boss at one point. Then the DPS do a vote kick on the healer because the red circle kills one of them. I denied that.

After 2-3 wipes of this and trying to coach them I decided to leave. I said thanks for the group and that I felt the DPS is a little low. I bit my tough and said a little.

When I loaded in Reapers, I had a barrage of whispers from both DPS calling me an elitist scrub and that next time I que for a vet to not expect to be carried...

I just laughed it off and it wasn't even worth a reply.

Got to love that group finder tool. I will be yet another tank that refuses to use it in the future.

geonsocal

yikes, one of the reasons I've never turned on some of the stat displays is I'm a little afraid to find out just how bad I suck - that and the fact I probably wouldn't even have any real reference for what those numbers mean...

forget that whole "you cut out, you're an elitist" crap...your game, your time...honestly, if someone had told me that, it would've given me a serious laugh too...

outside of immediate friends and family, I feel little to no sense of obligation to anyone else, anywhere...oops, probably should have left that little tidbit inside my head and not shared it in public...oh well

truth is though - some of you all have gotten me a little hyped on the dungeons, and, i don't wanna be the player that can't do my job...

failkiwib16_ESO

Biro123 wrote: »

I know exactly how you feel, Geonsocal.

I'm a PVP-er. I hate the idea of farming dungeons for loot. But I'd like to experience all the content in game - so would like to do all dungeons once - with the quest and exploring every nook and cranny.

But from what I've seen in other MMO's, most PVE-ers just want speed-runs of content they've done a million times over and often don't have the patience for the wide-eyed dungeon-virgin.
For me the result is just not bothering. I don't want to slow others down, and I don't want to feel rushed. I don't want my first run at a particular dungeon to be stressful (and therefore spoiled) because of the other players.

Also on the roles.. another thing that's put me off is not really having one. As a pvp-er, that's my build. I've not really been around long enough to have built up multiple sets for different roles, and to understand those roles. I wear heavy armour, use s+b and ransack as my main attack. That would make me a tank I guess - but I'm certainly not running with capped resists/maxed hp and whatever else a tank should have. I'm just what I'd probably call a front-line dd in pvp. I do steady damage, can take steady damage, can escape when need be. Funny thing is, I can solo a number of vet dungeons, but am afraid to group for them as I don't know my role!

@Biro123 well Ransack in PVE is a taunt and only used by tanks to take aggro from heavy hitting mobs and bosses - I would advice you against using that skill in pve, unless you actually join as a tank.

Most people don't mind you running whatever build, as long as you can to a certain degree deliver on your role. If you choose all 3 roles, you get a small notification about it when you get pushed into a group via the grouping tool - change your skills according to that. You can also join groups outside of grouping tool and ask people what role they need.
tank/heal
tank/dd
heal/dd
tank
heal
dd (It's possible for hybrids to pull 17k-25k dps as pure DD.)

A few of my pvp friends run builds like yours, and just switch out their skills depending on the groups needs, and it works just fine. Most dungeons don't require BiS gear or specific amount of resistances, extremely high dps or anything like that, it just requires a little l2p untill you get experienced enough to remember mechanics.

If you sound nice in general and ask people to explain you dungeons, they will be more than willing to do so - specially if you run them as a tank or healer. But let your group know that you are new before it's too late. (Certain dungeons like veteran WGT requires that you have minimum 1 ranged attack to kill 7k hp portals with very fast, and the endboss have a lot of 1-shot mechanics ...so always let your group know in advance, before you suddenly start wiping at the end of a dungeon)

Asardes

geonsocal wrote: »

what the heck @Asardes - are we even playing the same game

I have 7 characters now - i mostly pvp with them, but, I'd like to become at least a little bit semi-competent with a few of them in group play situations...

Well, if you had time to play 7 characters I think you can make time to research various builds, try to understand them adapt to your needs and adopt them. From what I understand your main is a magplar. That base build can be very effective both in PvP and PvE in all 3 roles, DD, Healer and Tank. All you need to do is swap gear and maybe change some of your CP and of course the bar change.

To make a successful Healer / magicka DD build you will need:

1) A race that has bonus to max magicka (High Elf, Breton, Dark Elf), magicka regeneration (High Elf) or spell cost reduction (Breton) and/or healing done (Argonian). For example I picked Breton for my magplar because it also has a high magicka resistance that stacks pretty well with Balanced Warrior passive. I can hit ~25K spell resistance with channeled focus, wearing 5 light, 1 medium and 1 heavy; that almost brings me into tank territory. As a side note in PvE most magicka builds don't rely on high resistance, but dodging and shielding to survive (healing ward, harness magicka).

2) To put all 64 points in magicka, stack maximum magicka (ideally > 40K), spell damage (ideally > 3K) and spell critical (ideally > 60%) and for healer also magicka regeneration (~1.5 K should be enough for healer, DD can manage with less than 1K if he weaves). All those affect both your damage and your heal power. In PvP you have Battle Spirit that adds 5K health, and halves both damage and healing. In PvE you don't have that. So you can't rely on constitution passive to recover anything. Mobs in some dungeons can hit over 10K with heavy attack, and bosses 15K-100K. As healer or DD you don't want to be hit in any case when your health is 17-18K. However they don't crit, so wearing impenetrable armor or using Transmutation set in PvE is useless.

3) Use restoration staff on your main bar and destruction on your back bar. Wear at least 5 pieces of light armor to get maximum bonuses from those passives at the bottom of the skill tree. Ideally wear a heavy chest and medium either feet/pants/shoulders/head to benefit from the Undaunted Mettle passive that gives you an extra 2% health, magicka and stamina for each type of armor equipped. However that can be difficult if you rely mostly on dropped and not crafted gear, since suitable gear is always light armor and arcane jewelry. Best trait on armor is divines, best for offensive weapons is sharpened and for healing staff precise, decisive or powered are better depending on your play style. Enchant your armor with maximum magicka glyphs, your jewelry with spell damage, and weapons whatever suits your needs. Your gear should be always sets that give you the bonuses listed at #2; non set gear is pretty useless. There are a few sets that have a beneficial proc as their 5 piece bonus. Sets like Spell Power Cure (VWGT) are currently BiS for healers - if their hands don't glow blue, the group would not be happy. http://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Spell+Power+Cure+Set
Other sets are more specialized, and don't drop in 4 man dungeons, but 12 men trials that do require a high amount of experience and group cohesion to complete. For example:
http://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Infallible+Mage+Set (SO/HRC/AA)
http://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Twilight+Remedy+Set (MoL)
For DDs the variety of gear is much larger and diverse. Some of them use 2 swords on one of the bars for the twin blade and blunt bonus to damage done, others run a destruction staff with a different element on each bar.

4) A good healer does much more than heal - both tank and healer should also support the group. If you join as healer establish a skill bar setup and rotation that ensures both group survival and resource management. You also need to debuff mobs and buff the group. Generally HoT (heal over time) spells are much more resource efficient, compared to burst. A good healer tents to use extended ritual/ritual or retribution, healing springs, mutagen/rapid regeneration and very rarely breath of life. In fights use combat prayer and if the damage taken is high also use healing ward. Remove harmful effects when they occur with extended ritual and purge. If you have stamina builds in your group throw shards and/or use repentance on bodies to replenish that. If you have magicka builds use elemental drain on bigger enemies and throw orbs. Slot a group utility ultimate - if you have PvP experience you will have aggressive war horn and barrier so slot those depending on the type of fight. You can also do some DD on trash packs and even boss fights, if you can keep healing and buffing. For example in trash packs you can do puncturing sweep and repent, or use radiant oppression when boss health is low.

As I said those are very general consideration, and for more detailed build guides you can check various websites:
http://alcasthq.com/
http://deltiasgaming.com/
http://tamrielfoundry.com/

geonsocal

Asardes wrote: »

To make a successful Healer / magicka DD build you will need:

1) A race that has bonus to max magicka (High Elf, Breton, Dark Elf), magicka regeneration (High Elf) or spell cost reduction (Breton) and/or healing done (Argonian). For example I picked Breton for my magplar because it also has a high magicka resistance that stacks pretty well with Balanced Warrior passive. I can hit ~25K spell resistance with channeled focus, wearing 5 light, 1 medium and 1 heavy; that almost brings me into tank territory. As a side note in PvE most magicka builds don't rely on high resistance, but dodging and shielding to survive (healing ward, harness magicka).

2) To put all 64 points in magicka, stack maximum magicka (ideally > 40K), spell damage (ideally > 3K) and spell critical (ideally > 60%) and for healer also magicka regeneration (~1.5 K should be enough for healer, DD can manage with less than 1K if he weaves). All those affect both your damage and your heal power. In PvP you have Battle Spirit that adds 5K health, and halves both damage and healing. In PvE you don't have that. So you can't rely on constitution passive to recover anything. Mobs in some dungeons can hit over 10K with heavy attack, and bosses 15K-100K. As healer or DD you don't want to be hit in any case when your health is 17-18K. However they don't crit, so wearing impenetrable armor or using Transmutation set in PvE is useless.

3) Use restoration staff on your main bar and destruction on your back bar. Wear at least 5 pieces of light armor to get maximum bonuses from those passives at the bottom of the skill tree. Ideally wear a heavy chest and medium either feet/pants/shoulders/head to benefit from the Undaunted Mettle passive that gives you an extra 2% health, magicka and stamina for each type of armor equipped. However that can be difficult if you rely mostly on dropped and not crafted gear, since suitable gear is always light armor and arcane jewelry. Best trait on armor is divines, best for offensive weapons is sharpened and for healing staff precise, decisive or powered are better depending on your play style. Enchant your armor with maximum magicka glyphs, your jewelry with spell damage, and weapons whatever suits your needs. Your gear should be always sets that give you the bonuses listed at #2; non set gear is pretty useless. There are a few sets that have a beneficial proc as their 5 piece bonus. Sets like Spell Power Cure (VWGT) are currently BiS for healers - if their hands don't glow blue, the group would not be happy. http://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Spell+Power+Cure+Set
Other sets are more specialized, and don't drop in 4 man dungeons, but 12 men trials that do require a high amount of experience and group cohesion to complete. For example:
http://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Infallible+Mage+Set (SO/HRC/AA)
http://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Twilight+Remedy+Set (MoL)
For DDs the variety of gear is much larger and diverse. Some of them use 2 swords on one of the bars for the twin blade and blunt bonus to damage done, others run a destruction staff with a different element on each bar.

4) A good healer does much more than heal - both tank and healer should also support the group. If you join as healer establish a skill bar setup and rotation that ensures both group survival and resource management. You also need to debuff mobs and buff the group. Generally HoT (heal over time) spells are much more resource efficient, compared to burst. A good healer tents to use extended ritual/ritual or retribution, healing springs, mutagen/rapid regeneration and very rarely breath of life. In fights use combat prayer and if the damage taken is high also use healing ward. Remove harmful effects when they occur with extended ritual and purge. If you have stamina builds in your group throw shards and/or use repentance on bodies to replenish that. If you have magicka builds use elemental drain on bigger enemies and throw orbs. Slot a group utility ultimate - if you have PvP experience you will have aggressive war horn and barrier so slot those depending on the type of fight. You can also do some DD on trash packs and even boss fights, if you can keep healing and buffing. For example in trash packs you can do puncturing sweep and repent, or use radiant oppression when boss health is low.

As I said those are very general consideration, and for more detailed build guides you can check various websites:
http://alcasthq.com/
http://deltiasgaming.com/
http://tamrielfoundry.com/

great stuff @Asardes ..."ESO builds for Dummies", which is pretty much exactly what I need

I've got my magplar in 5 light/2 heavy now...my max health, spell and physical resistance all took a bit of a dive - but, oh does my jesus beam like the change...fortunately with already being cp 400 and something, I'm leveling up the light armor skill line really fast...

my main is actually a breton nightblade (primarily stamina based, but, still needs magicka for a few abilities - mostly cloaking, fear and surprise attack - i think)...a lot of how I built my other characters was in response to just how squishy I felt in cyro for the first 3 or 4 months I played there...I've tried to make sure they all either have enough armor (or in the case of my light armor guys - impenatrable armor traits) and health to survive someone's initial burst...plus I make sure they are all very capable of being able to stay in stealth, and move around, for awhile...for pve, it's not really necessary to hide that much...

now that I'm comfortable in pvp and starting to do more pve recently, I'm looking to update their builds (man, some days it seems working on my builds can take almost a third of my gameplay time)...

lately though I'm starting to feel the 'ol game burnout (I've been playing eso since July '15)...so, switching things up with my playstyle and builds helps to keep it fresh for me...

I remember the first time I watched a video of someone showing their build with all 64 attribute points in one area (I think it was stamina) totally freaked me out...I know you can balance yourself with set bonuses, glyphs, jewelry and champion points, food/drinks and potions - but, I'm definitely not there yet...

Cryptical

geonsocal wrote: »

fortunately with already being cp 400 and something,

(snip)

I remember the first time I watched a video of someone showing their build with all 64 attribute points in one area (I think it was stamina) totally freaked me out...I know you can balance yourself with set bonuses, glyphs, jewelry and champion points, food/drinks and potions - but, I'm definitely not there yet...

Yes. You are there.

geonsocal

I don't know @Cryptical...@Alucardo 's thread today about burning out on eso really touched a nerve...

i've been consciously not trying to get too deep or fanatical with it - just too avoid burning out...

not so sure at the moment how much I really want to invest in "optimizimg" a build right now...good or bad, I think I'll more than likely stick with mostly "fun" builds...I wanna try on the beekeeper's gear on my orc "tank" and take him into cyro and see how hard it is to die...yeah, I'm starting to get to that stage...

Cryptical

I meant that you are at the point you can go all-mag or all-stam and balance it out through champ and gear.

geonsocal

Cryptical wrote: »

I meant that you are at the point you can go all-mag or all-stam and balance it out through champ and gear.

sorry man, thought you wuz being deep...

krashwire_ESO

If you go into a PUG dungeon and don't bother to say something about needing to go to a quest area, expect people to want to kick the guy who isn't contributing because he's run off to smell the flowers. People are looking to get through them faster for some of the very reasons you mentioned. Roles aren't needed in Normals when you have a bunch of even semi skilled players. Most of the loot will have crappy traits so you need to loot a lot of it to see what you actually want (Divines usually).

I would suggest that if you are going to run PUG dungeons you adapt to the reality rather than expect reality to bend to your desires. You'll enjoy yourself more. If you want to explore and take your time find a group of like minded players. Or at least say something in the beginning, like "hey guys, never been in here, can we make sure we hit all the areas and complete the quest?"

It amazes me how many people will join a PUG and expect others to just do what they want as if the rest are telepathic. The norm is the norm for a reason.

Solus

geonsocal wrote: »

me doing pvp content:



here i am doing a little overland play:



finally, me going through every single container inside of a dungeon:

Me fighting a bunch of low CP players that arent running all impen.

Asardes

I've been playing since October last year and currently I have 723 CP (I can use only 561 now). Never grinded though, because I hate it; if I did I would have had much more but wouldn't have helped me. My main is a Nord DK, full 64 stamina, but until CP400 when I had enough materials to craft top gear and enough CP to boost my stats I used a hybrid build, with 16 points in health and 48 in stamina. And his main activity is tanking veteran dungeons since running normals is not worth my effort - blue jewelry can't be upgraded, no monster head drops, if I run for pledges I can't get 2 keys out of them. Sometimes I join as DD and just swap my gear - I've completed all veteran dungeons as DD at least once, hard mode, except VRoM and VCoS which I only tanked. So you can have great flexibility with a full stamina/magicka build, just by changing gear.

With a change in gear I can go from 10K magicka 18.5 K health and 38.2K stamina (DD PvP/PvE configuration) to 13.5K magicka 26.6K health and 32.5K stamina (tank PvE configuration). So yes, all attributes in either stamina or magicka, all jewelry with either robust or arcane trait, and sets that boost either weapon damage, weapon critical, maximum stamina, stamina regeneration for stamina DD or spell damage, spell critical, maximum magicka, magicka regeneration for magicka DD and healer. Tanks are a bit more complex though, because you must maximize all your resource pools, regeneration, especially magicka, and push your resistance near the cap, which is 33.5K both spell and physical resistance. I have about 31K (32.6K with combat prayer) now on my tank, and I push my magicka regeneration to almost 2K, just changing food and mundus stone. I can chain, talon and shield all day, though my resource pool is rather small.

geonsocal

@Asardes ...



i've spent the last day and a half thinking about which of my vets i'm gonna try to build with all attributes in one area...i still don't know - i'm also trying to figure out in my head how i'll need to do my glyphs and jewelry...

i may need to go ahead and break down and use one of those theory crafting stat calculators to work it all out:

http://www.esohead.com/calculator/skills

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor

man, not easy stuff...

geonsocal

Wrecking_Blow_Spam wrote: »

Ahh ok so you're the Healer with a lightning staff and 2H (Battleaxe I guess).

just wanted to follow up on this old thread and thank @Wrecking_Blow_Spam for helping me get my poop together...

kinda reminded me when someone helped me with my ww by basically letting me know all i needed to do to get right was practice more - and, they were right...

it's funny, when you're on the forums asking for advice and reading different build/gameplay suggestions - you never really can be sure what will stick with you or make the "light go on" for you...

after having this comment stuck in my head for months (literally) - i finally understood i needed to put aside my silly "do your own thing" kind of build (also helped along as a result of some humbling moments in Imperial City)...

i finally started to change my characters to fit more in the "norm"...for my "healer"/magplar i went to 5 light/2 heavy - monster helm, julianos and kept the rattlecage...still don''t have popping pots all the way integrated into my game, so the major sorcery helps me out...and most importantly, finally put down my 2H and picked up a resto staff...rel-balanced my attributes to get at least 50 points in to magicka (i'm getting closer to getting all 64 in to one resource pool)...

getting my "tank" (orc stamplar) right was even easier - i already was using pierce armor, warhorn, biting jabs and rune focus...

because i mostly solo pvp, for both my templars i had been using lingering ritual (which for that scenario works just fine)...finally switched them both to Breath of Life - wow, i now see how that is a much more superior "group" healing tool - that move saves lives like crazy...

took both characters through CoA a bunch (farming some BSW at the moment for my mDK) and things went super smooth...

it's funny though, when i first queued for group finder i was super super nervous about doing my "job", and, worried about getting kicked...

one interesting thing i noticed, i ended up going through CoA four times, only during one run was any one else mic'd up...

any who - thanks to you all for the tough love; and, the moral of the story is:

Wrecking_Blow_Spam

geonsocal wrote: »

Wrecking_Blow_Spam wrote: »

Ahh ok so you're the Healer with a lightning staff and 2H (Battleaxe I guess).

just wanted to follow up on this old thread and thank @Wrecking_Blow_Spam for helping me get my poop together...

kinda reminded me when someone helped me with my ww by basically letting me know all i needed to do to get right was practice more - and, they were right...

it's funny, when you're on the forums asking for advice and reading different build/gameplay suggestions - you never really can be sure what will stick with you or make the "light go on" for you...

after having this comment stuck in my head for months (literally) - i finally understood i needed to put aside my silly "do your own thing" kind of build (also helped along as a result of some humbling moments in Imperial City)...

i finally started to change my characters to fit more in the "norm"...for my "healer"/magplar i went to 5 light/2 heavy - monster helm, julianos and kept the rattlecage...still don''t have popping pots all the way integrated into my game, so the major sorcery helps me out...and most importantly, finally put down my 2H and picked up a resto staff...rel-balanced my attributes to get at least 50 points in to magicka (i'm getting closer to getting all 64 in to one resource pool)...

getting my "tank" (orc stamplar) right was even easier - i already was using pierce armor, warhorn, biting jabs and rune focus...

because i mostly solo pvp, for both my templars i had been using lingering ritual (which for that scenario works just fine)...finally switched them both to Breath of Life - wow, i now see how that is a much more superior "group" healing tool - that move saves lives like crazy...

You're welcome, didn't intend to haunt you for months but glad the message got across.

Imo people can play however they like BUT in "group" content such as dungeons I think it's only fair you do the role somewhat decent. I.e. Healing with resto, tank taunting etc. Outside of group content go nuts

SlinkySlack

geonsocal wrote: »

Wrecking_Blow_Spam wrote: »

Ahh ok so you're the Healer with a lightning staff and 2H (Battleaxe I guess).

just wanted to follow up on this old thread and thank @Wrecking_Blow_Spam for helping me get my poop together...

kinda reminded me when someone helped me with my ww by basically letting me know all i needed to do to get right was practice more - and, they were right...

it's funny, when you're on the forums asking for advice and reading different build/gameplay suggestions - you never really can be sure what will stick with you or make the "light go on" for you...

after having this comment stuck in my head for months (literally) - i finally understood i needed to put aside my silly "do your own thing" kind of build (also helped along as a result of some humbling moments in Imperial City)...

i finally started to change my characters to fit more in the "norm"...for my "healer"/magplar i went to 5 light/2 heavy - monster helm, julianos and kept the rattlecage...still don''t have popping pots all the way integrated into my game, so the major sorcery helps me out...and most importantly, finally put down my 2H and picked up a resto staff...rel-balanced my attributes to get at least 50 points in to magicka (i'm getting closer to getting all 64 in to one resource pool)...

getting my "tank" (orc stamplar) right was even easier - i already was using pierce armor, warhorn, biting jabs and rune focus...

because i mostly solo pvp, for both my templars i had been using lingering ritual (which for that scenario works just fine)...finally switched them both to Breath of Life - wow, i now see how that is a much more superior "group" healing tool - that move saves lives like crazy...

took both characters through CoA a bunch (farming some BSW at the moment for my mDK) and things went super smooth...

it's funny though, when i first queued for group finder i was super super nervous about doing my "job", and, worried about getting kicked...

one interesting thing i noticed, i ended up going through CoA four times, only during one run was any one else mic'd up...

any who - thanks to you all for the tough love; and, the moral of the story is:

This ^^. You finally get it. Congrats and enjoy as you'll find from here on out it gets so much easier every time. On the mic thing, yeah mostly its 12 man trials especially VET, some will have mic in dungeons but mostly everyone just assumes you have done before and there's no need for mic, especially normal. RoM v or normal I'll say is must. I keep my headset charged and right next to me for in case. PRO TIP: Before answering a call to do trials, switch on mic, some groups kick the moment they see no mic, even if you not going to use, just switch on.

In the beginning I only played PVE but not inside dungeons apart from the public ones. Ended up in my first dungeon, fungal grotto in the VR days, with a mag sorc in medium and heavy armor, (placepalm again, for I was such a noob). I listened to all advice and seriously asked myself what exactly am I doing.
Did lots of reading on forums and from Deltia's site, ended up with a very successful and highly capable main character, the same M/H armor mag sorc, only not a noob anymore.
To date there is now only 2 TRIALS I must complete on VET and its vMOL and vSO, all other dungeons and trials I've done vet, AND ONLY USED PUG and LFG, LFT, only ever twice did I group before with the guilds I'm in and that was for training MOL sessions.
But as DD became 2nd nature, I too wanted to diversify. Got old lv50 (cp561) Argonian Templar that rolled DD while leveling up to roll as healer, could not understand why everyone is dying all the time, me the most of all??? Took a lot more practice than what the DD did, anticipation is your friend, knowing where the boss will strike gives you chance to Hsprings and voila DD lives through red circle (only to some degree, there are some attacks that no amount of healing will save the fool standing in crimson circle of death!!) Its now only been Dec and Jan2017 that my healer became more successful and here I'll confess, the healing sets that buff group really helps.
Lately I'm farming SPC from WGT and can not wait to have all divines set.

Anyway by now you should have realized that the only difference in competitiveness between PVP and PVE is the enemy it gets directed at. Some players , like everywhere, gets to serious.
Was in that fat ugly spiders dungeon CoS staring down Velidreth only to have one DD brake down and get IRL a nervous breakdown. Said it was to tens for him, especially when she wiggle's her butt. He left at his own accord after we calmed him a bit, just shows how overwhelming it can get sometimes.
Then the clowns (not jester suit wearers), no, the looks normal but clearly is a clown type. Thinking to myself ,little less healing for you sir, but in the end my Arnoni's constitution of heal all and any even if it means dying just wont let me heal the clown less, nor just let someone lie there dead, he will always try to rezz when a moment presents itself.

My advice to you, DO NOT TAKE PLAYER COMMENTS AS YOUR ABILITY TO PLAY OR TO HEAL!! Meaning I got in same group after beating the boss hate mail from 1 dd and praises from the other 1. Really was I so blind as to only heal one?? Nope its just his bad setup, compared to the other dd. I do fail sometimes, but why would you being CP32 and CP29 PUG for vICP, why why. I just can not heal them through, didn't even make the first boss, to be honest we didn't even get past first mob.

Enjoy healing ESO!!

Jeremy

Asardes wrote: »

Had one heavy armor "healer" in a dungeon. Had to slot vigor to pull it trough. But were lowbies, something like level 20 or so, and picking heavy armor was understandable. It kinda looks cooler than other types at low level, especially for people who just came into the game. I guess that setup could work still in normal dungeons, if the other 3 players have some self heal. But in a veteran dungeon I'd kick any person using mainly heavy armor and not being a tank.

This is even a more stupid reason to kick someone then low CP is.

If you don't think players can effectively heal veteran dungeons while wearing heavy armor then you have a lot to learn. If you had to slot vigor to pull it through - then that was because your healer wasn't very good. It had nothing to do with heavy armor.

It never amazes me the dumb reasons people come up with to try and kick others on this game.

Jeremy

geonsocal wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

But in a veteran dungeon I'd kick any person using mainly heavy armor and not being a tank.

oh, that's really good to know @Asardes ...seriously, not being a dungeon type person - i wouldn't have had any clue - it's kinda like getting ready to head out on the town for the night and having a friend tell you you're outfit looks absolutely crazy (and not in a good way)...

I don't use any stat counters on my screen (the only thing displayed are player health bars)...I'm guessing though that most of the more "tuned in" players can see exactly what type of build you have based on the numbers you generate...

just went through all the eso sets - hmmmm, not too much group "healing" love with anything in heavy (other than the passive on the ebony set)...

I do want to be able to have a couple of characters set up and able to do dungeon content...

is there any kind of effective heavy armor build you can think of - or, is it pretty much: templar, 5 pieces of light, resto staff?

I would not listen to that post. You can heal just fine in heavy armor if you want. The extra health and defense is useful - especially if you don't need the added magicka recovery and critical hit from light armor.

srfrogg23

Jeremy wrote: »

geonsocal wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

But in a veteran dungeon I'd kick any person using mainly heavy armor and not being a tank.

oh, that's really good to know @Asardes ...seriously, not being a dungeon type person - i wouldn't have had any clue - it's kinda like getting ready to head out on the town for the night and having a friend tell you you're outfit looks absolutely crazy (and not in a good way)...

I don't use any stat counters on my screen (the only thing displayed are player health bars)...I'm guessing though that most of the more "tuned in" players can see exactly what type of build you have based on the numbers you generate...

just went through all the eso sets - hmmmm, not too much group "healing" love with anything in heavy (other than the passive on the ebony set)...

I do want to be able to have a couple of characters set up and able to do dungeon content...

is there any kind of effective heavy armor build you can think of - or, is it pretty much: templar, 5 pieces of light, resto staff?

I would not listen to that post. You can heal just fine in heavy armor if you want. The extra health and defense is useful - especially if you don't need the added magicka recovery and critical hit from light armor.

You should make sure you group up with him for every vet dungeon if he follows your advice.

If you're not there to defend him, he's going to spend a lot of time getting booted.

Seriously though, if a veteran dungeon group is going slow, the person with the oddball hybrid build is pretty much always the first to get kicked.

People that are running optimized builds for Vet dungeons aren't there on a sight-seeing trip. They've been through the content a hundred times and now they're just on the gear treadmill with the speed cranked up to 11.

The whole "healing in heavy armor is my play style" argument won't be enough if you can't keep up with the group. And, if you're not pulling your weight, people will notice.

Next time you throw out that kind of advice, I'd recommend telling people to stick with Normal Mode while you're at it.

Wifeaggro13

geonsocal wrote: »

small disclaimer…for those whom have read some of my threads in the past – sorry, once again, there is no real point…if that doesn’t quite work for you – I highly recommend checking out Victor E. Frankl’s Man’s Search for Meaning – I promise, that’s got all the insight and answers you’ll ever need…

soooooooo, on to the show - for the last 8 months or so I’ve been pretty much exclusively pvping – very challenging environment, always seeing new, weird and interesting stuff (playing against other people, things are always going “off script”), plus, I was tired of dungeons/caves and wasn’t happy questing with limited rewards/xp on the different zone maps…probably same story for a lot of folks…

well, 1T and all the new armor sets have gotten me out of cyro and wandering all around 1T…I have a nord magplar whom I was using affliction and dreugh king on (normally dreugh king wouldn’t be a good thing for a magic user, but, most of my fighting in cyro/IC involved my lightening staff – for awhile it worked for me)…I saw the rattlecage armor and decided I had to have the 20% spell damage buff on my magplar (I was just using structured entropy before – quick question: does the rattlecage buff and entropy buff stack?)…

so, knowing I’m getting ready to do some “group” content I’m all excited and nervous…I’ve read a bunch of threads here about getting kicked from groups for not playing your role, or, not being effective in it…so, I do some research on the specific dungeon, go over all my skills with my magplar, make sure I have rite of passage, rune focus and healing ritual all slotted and ready to go – then designate myself as a healer…

my buddy and I queued ourselves up, and, we plopped into the dungeon…couple of strangers come in after us – off we all go in to the Vault of Madness…for about half of the dungeon I’m running around like mad trying to make sure I’m healing everyone and dropping down runes, a couple of times I even fired off my rite of passage…

after about the fourth boss/mini boss we came across I suddenly realized – no one in the group was really taking any significant damage or really needed any help at all…

doing the dungeon was seriously intense – mostly just because how fast everyone moves…even in pvp I can sneak my character away for a minute somewhere so I can go use the bathroom – going through a dungeon – no way buddy, ya gotta hold it…

after my first run I was feeling pretty confident, so, I actually started doing the quest and looking around a little…it was then I suddenly realized – these other players weren’t there to sightsee or “experience” the dungeon, they were there to farm gear and skulls and complete the whole thing as fast as humanly possible…

during my second run, and, after one too many peeks down some empty hallways my buddy tells me there’s a vote to kick me from the group…well, being the avid pvper that I am – I reacted in the only way I could think of – I started trying to “bash” both of the other two players in the group (it may have just been one of the two whom put up that vote – but, I was a little irked at the moment)…

my buddy’s not about to kick me - needless to say, one player left the group and the other just logged out…good news though - i was able to use the bathroom and we got replacements in about 3 to 4 minutes …

it’s funny, during another run – there was someone in the group whom was having a bit of a challenge staying alive (they kept using ambush to jump right on top of the boss), and, whom occasionally would fall behind our group…how did we all react – we waited patiently, checked our gear and just talked…

ended up taking me 5 runs to get all my jewelry (traded for my two rings) and a couple of pieces of “useful” armor – wtf is up with everything dropping in prosperous and training traits – is that some kind of cruel zos joke on us all…and I ended up getting 5 head pieces and no shoulder pieces…what???

part of the moral of this whole story – believe half of what you see and even less of what you hear or read (that holds especially true for stuff on the forum) – I would imagine, unless you’re with friends – or, doing trials – there really aren’t any “roles”…

I also learned that the people out in cyro/IC are a whole lot more dangerous than any of those bosses in the dungeon…even the 1 shot bosses have patterned mechanisms which can be learned…not so much when your facing someone alone in IC…

Exactly and this is why pve sucks in this game it's a friggin train wreck. The whole game in the pve department is a Dps meta with a focus on individual performance, rather then working as a team utilizing each others strengths and abilities. Tamriel one ruined any type of MMO experience and design as far as the roles department goes. It is so mind numbingly easy and boring unless you do vr trials . Just look at the last 12 months of content solo easy zones and a crap load of cash flash items. Don't worry though they are slowly destroying your beloved pvp too.

Doctordarkspawn

Roles matter but not that much.

Does a good tank speed things up? Yeah. Is it terrible to go without? Eh, depends on your skill level. Same with healer.

I personally still main tank because it makes the lives of my team-mates easier and even the 'raider' friends I have still like me as a tank because I take the pressure off their healer and speed things up with a combination of my tanking, heals, and damage.

The problem mostly lies with how grindy vet content is now. It's not that tank and healer are useless, despite what the usual doomsayers say, it's more that the focus has gone from each individual roll, to "If the DPS isn't on point I wipe us."

That's the problem. Devs need to take the emphasis off the DPS, reduce the resistances and health and stop giving Wrobel a powertrip.

PS: It's extremely obvious when a exclusive PVPer enters a dungeon. The skills they use typically dont make sense in a PVE environment, or 'why would you be using this in place of this unless you...oh.' So that's likely why the votekick happened.

geonsocal

I really appreciate everyone's input and feedback...

the group dungeon aspect of the game is still something I'm not all that familiar with...

@Doctordarkspawn ...so, I take it you are not using the "optimal" class for tanking: dragon knight, but, rather a templar for a tank...

i haven't had a chance yet to run a dungeon with a coordinated group (1 healer, 1 tank, 2 dps)...but, it would seem that while you are just running with random folks doing dailies or grinding for gear - it's best to have a tank that can heal, and a healer that can tank...also, if you're main focus is on dealing damage - you need to make sure you can also heal and shield yourself...

srfrogg23

geonsocal wrote: »

I really appreciate everyone's input and feedback...

the group dungeon aspect of the game is still something I'm not all that familiar with...

@Doctordarkspawn ...so, I take it you are not using the "optimal" class for tanking: dragon knight, but, rather a templar for a tank...

i haven't had a chance yet to run a dungeon with a coordinated group (1 healer, 1 tank, 2 dps)...but, it would seem that while you are just running with random folks doing dailies or grinding for gear - it's best to have a tank that can heal, and a healer that can tank...also, if you're main focus is on dealing damage - you need to make sure you can also heal and shield yourself...

Eh... it might seem like a good idea to have a tank that can heal, a healer that can tank, and dps doing a mix of those things, but it's really not that great because of how the stats and resources have to be split.

You can do that somewhat effectively with the right gear, but you're kind of limited in gear choices and you will never truly be as effective as someone who specializes in a single role. That's just the way the game is balanced right now.

If Zos disconnected weapon and spell damage from stamina and magicka, it would not be that bad to take that approach.

Unfortunately, with the way the stats and resources and health systems are setup, when you gain a little in Section A, you lose a lot in Sections B and C. You're sacrificing a lot of one to gain a little of another. It's a disproportionate sliding scale. Can a tank heal? Sure. Will it be worth a damn? Probably not.

So, with the right gear, it's possible, just be prepared to do your homework, if that's your thing.

The path of least resistance and, honestly the most efficient way to go, is for everyone to specialize in their given role and melt faces as a team instead of everyone trying to be "The One".

This isn't GW2

geonsocal

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Eh... it might seem like a good idea to have a tank that can heal, a healer that can tank, and dps doing a mix of those things, but it's really not that great because of how the stats and resources have to be split.

You can do that somewhat effectively with the right gear, but you're kind of limited in gear choices and you will never truly be as effective as someone who specializes in a single role. That's just the way the game is balanced right now.

If Zos disconnected weapon and spell damage from stamina and magicka, it would not be that bad to take that approach.

Unfortunately, with the way the stats and resources and health systems are setup, when you gain a little in Section A, you lose a lot in Sections B and C. You're sacrificing a lot of one to gain a little of another. It's a disproportionate sliding scale. Can a tank heal? Sure. Will it be worth a damn? Probably not.

So, with the right gear, it's possible, just be prepared to do your homework,

"i'm a believer"...i tried to fight it for a year and a half...just seems a lot more fun to do "hybridish" type stuff...

generally, i've been able to work my way to having one or two "support" (or execute ability in some cases) type abilities on each bar different from the resource pool which i'm not specializing in...

i guess at this stage - because i haven't really tried it much - i'm a little apprehensive about doing dungeons as a dps with all my focus on dealing damage...i'm going to give it a try tonight with my mag sorc and magblade on CoA which i've been farming lately...