@Silver_Strider but am I likely to encounter most people not wanting a saptank in their trials group? This is the main reason that puts me off
I have a friend who has tanked everything, including vMoL, so yes, it's definitely viable.
That said,
- Dungeon and trials tanking are two very different things. A nightblade saptank in a dungeon is a beast and really showcases the unique strengths of nightblade tanking. I personally think that nightblades are the best dungeon tanks, even better than DKs. Trials tanking, on the other hand, has very different requirements, and a nightblade tank in a trial will lose a lot of its unique flavor and advantage.
- The requirements of trials tanking is such that DKs have an advantage over nightblades. Played correctly, a nightblade will do just fine as a trials tank, but it is more difficult and requires more careful play.
- You might face some discrimination, and you might come across people who are less likely to give you a chance because you're a nightblade. That said, most people don't care as long as you can deliver results.
Thanks for your replies guys.
@Autolycus it's not that I would let the ignorance of others stop me but rather that I get limited time to play and can't be ***ed with wasting that time trying to find a group that will give me a chance. But as long as most groups in reality give you a chance to prove yourself before dismissal (which by much of what I've seen posted previously they don't) then it's all good.
This is the second time I've seen you make claims like this, and I strongly disagree. I would like for you to provide some specific examples to support this claim, else I deem it misinformation. Perhaps some personal experience has led you to believe DKs are inherently better?
I thought I did clarify it the last we discussed this. Anyway...
- In regards to my first point, the unique advantage of the nightblade tank is that it has great damage potential and self-healing from that damage. In a dungeon, it means a lot of off-DPS and off-healing from a tank who rarely needs healer support and who can carry, as a tank, groups with bad DPS. In a trial, neither of these advantages are important because the damage contribution of the tank in a 12-man group is negligible. Furthermore, the kind of build that you use in a trial (more survival/support and not the kind of hybrid/dps build that many saptanks use in dungeons) isn't the kind of build that showcases the nightblade's unique advantage. This is not to say that a nightblade isn't good in a trial--what this is saying is that the nightblade's main advantages over a DK in a dungeon don't apply to trials.
- In regards to my second point, my stance has always been that well-played nightblades are viable in trials, and nothing that I said in my post contradicts that stance. But they do require a higher level of skill to play correctly. Do you dispute this? As a DK, you can literally tape down that RMB. Need stamina? Block-cast your Igneous. Block-cast your War Horn and get oodles of resources back. What does a nightblade have for resource management? We have Siphoning Attacks, which is very powerful. But it requires a light attack to proc. Which means dropping block. Which means timing that drop so that you don't get whacked at a bad time. Now, if you're a seasoned tank who knows all the boss fights, all the tells, that's not a problem--you don't have to permablock, you can light-attack to proc SA, and you end up having resource management that's arguably even better than a DK's. But I am under no delusion that this is easy for a new tank who has a lot of other things on their plate that they need to focus on, or for people who latency/framerate issues. Similarly, a lot of tanks are given the recommendation of placing everything important on one bar to minimize the vulnerability frames from bar swaps because it makes things easier. Can you configure your bars such that you need frequent bar swaps? Sure. Can you drop block to proc SA? Sure. But these things open up potential points of player error and thus require a higher level of skill. That doesn't mean that nightblades are not viable (a claim that I have never made), but it does mean that they are harder to play because there are more things that a nightblade has to juggle.
Thanks for clarifying. I would argue that the main advantage of a NB tank, regardless of content, is sustain potential, not damage/healing potential. The sustain advantage that NBs have doesn't go away by stepping into trials... that is simply the nature of the class. Once one learns to play as a NB tank, has refined one's build to its optimal potential, and learned mechanics (which is something all players, regardless of role, must do), it doesn't matter which content is in question.
You are absolutely correct in saying that playing a NB tank is more difficult, particularly for the risk taken to light attack or bar swap. Is that a disadvantage? Again, the nature of the build doesn't change. I guess we can call it a disadvantage, but frankly I think that verbiage implies a negative connotation that leads people to believe they are somehow less qualified - and that is misinformation. A NB can tape their RMB down too, if that's how he/she wants to build.
All I wanted was specific information. I apologize if it came off the wrong way... I may be reading too much into the tone of your post, but it appears I may have offended you. I've seen and read a great deal of your posts and I know you to be knowledgeable and capable as a player; I can simply tell from your tone and content that you've been around the block. You've provided a great deal of insight for many people, myself included. I take back the "strongly disagree" comment I made in the last post; that was rude and uncalled for.
The main reason I asked you to provide specifics is for the benefit of the OP. Just as you mentioned that playing a NB tank may be relatively difficult for someone new to tanking (or new to the class), playing up a DK (or any class for that matter) as "better" acts as a deterrent to players wanting to fill those shoes. A good tank is a good tank... it doesn't matter what content. Either one builds properly and knows their class and mechanics well, or they need to practice and adjust their gear/skills/etc. The fundamentals of tanking don't change with class.
Would an argonian saptank build be viable for all endgame pve group content such as trials and vet dungs?
I'm not saying it can't be done, it most certainly can - and has - been accomplished. However, DK's are just better at tanking...period (assuming it's not a 'L2P' issue). So when it comes to doing vet trials (HM or not) and especially vMoL (at a competitive level), all other tanks are second best. However, if you're just doing pledges or basic trials and have a great understanding of tanking; you should be just fine. Just know, that if you want to get into top tier end game (at least for now), you will be laughed at if you bring anything other than a DK tank.
I'm not saying it can't be done, it most certainly can - and has - been accomplished. However, DK's are just better at tanking...period (assuming it's not a 'L2P' issue). So when it comes to doing vet trials (HM or not) and especially vMoL (at a competitive level), all other tanks are second best. However, if you're just doing pledges or basic trials and have a great understanding of tanking; you should be just fine. Just know, that if you want to get into top tier end game (at least for now), you will be laughed at if you bring anything other than a DK tank.
Perhaps you can clarify this passage for me. I rarely play trials and haven't done any veteran ones. I do however play dungeons, occasionally soloing the easier ones. In my limited experience I don't find your statement to be true. For starters Siphoning Attacks proc not just from light attacks, but also (for a percentage) from Siphoning skills. They proc frequently, if you are surrounded by a mob and just block-cast Sap Essence. If the mob is large enough my survivability goes up, because I don't need to drop block at all while casting Sap. Against single targets (bosses) I cast Bolstering Darkness (60% damage reduction) when I run out of stam, then regenerate it from Siphoning Attacks + light attacks. This works rather well.As a DK, you can literally tape down that RMB. Need stamina? Block-cast your Igneous. Block-cast your War Horn and get oodles of resources back. What does a nightblade have for resource management? We have Siphoning Attacks, which is very powerful. But it requires a light attack to proc. Which means dropping block.
I'm not saying it can't be done, it most certainly can - and has - been accomplished. However, DK's are just better at tanking...period (assuming it's not a 'L2P' issue). So when it comes to doing vet trials (HM or not) and especially vMoL (at a competitive level), all other tanks are second best. However, if you're just doing pledges or basic trials and have a great understanding of tanking; you should be just fine. Just know, that if you want to get into top tier end game (at least for now), you will be laughed at if you bring anything other than a DK tank.
WalksonGraves wrote: »I'm an argonian nb tank.
I run 3x shield play and 100 cp in block cost reduction, you want to maximize your ability to block since it's crucial for boss mechanics.
Invigorating Drain has the highest ult generation of anything in the game. 15/3sec.
Vampire's also get 30% dr below 50% hp.
Invigorating Drain sucks on any tank except Blazing Shield Templars.
WalksonGraves wrote: »
Right because having twice as much ult generation as any other source is something to ignore.
Blazing shield is almost identical to bone shield and has zero to do with drain other than hp scaling which isn't templar only.
OMG again with this nonsense. I have yet to see a single person who agrees with you. You lack experience and your advice is bad. Quit spreading misinformation. I fail to see why you think every thread on these forums needs to be littered with your permadrain nonsense. Some people want good tanking advice, not the crap you tout around and claim is best with no actual experience or data to back it up.
WalksonGraves wrote: »
Lol like your nonsense about the shield? Here's an idea, just because you lack the intellectual capacity to understand when some numbers are higher than others but you can't simultaneously say Ult generation is all important and the best source of ult is meaningless. Btw people did agree with me, it just took a while before anyone other than you and your trolls responded.
Stop trying to act like you know anything, adults are talking.
How about you post your ult gen, mine is 300 a minute. Please brag about how you have less than half my ult gen.
Actually I generate 465 ult per minute without Invigorating Drain, and I provide a plethora of buffs to my group in addition to that. I could bump this up even more if I used synergies more often (but I leave these to the player with Alkosh), and even further still if I added in a third set that generates ultimate, or could use a set that reduces ult cost.
You simply don't have the experience and knowledge you think you do. Until you start actually doing content and learning about group play, about what it takes to beat content in this game, you have no grounds to justify your claims of BiS builds.