Why have levels anymore? Just let us start new characters at our max cp...

Annalyse

Twilix01 wrote: »

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

Twilix01 wrote: »

I don't know about you guys but I would be pretty bored with a character fast if all I had to do was sit through character creation and then automatically have access to all my CP and equip CP160 gear within minutes of making the character. Where's the fun in that?

How so? What would you do differently? Quest? Still do it. Level skills? Still do it. Level Guild skill lines? Still do it. Work on getting proper gear? Still do it. Pvp? Still do it. Collect skill points? Still do it.

What exactly are you missing?

GeneralPardon wrote: »

I have to admit that I don't like going through the process of upgrading my riding skills. But instant max level no thanks. I'd be bored by the end of the day.
I don't like to do things like collecting skyshards when my character is max level. I don't like doing the main quest and guild quests with a max cp toon. I do that stuff when I'm levelling my character to 50. So please no max level chars when you've reached that once.

But you are. If you have a character at max cp then all your characters are max cp. battle scaling takes care of the rest. You may not like it but it is exactly what you are doing now.

I can't speak for anyone else (how could I?) but leveling is my main motivation to do content on a character. I didn't realize it at first before the veteran rank removal, but once that happened and I became well above the CP cap, I didn't feel like doing any of the leveling content on any level 50 character since I felt my time could be better spent on characters that are not level 50. If levels were removed as well and power was based on CP only, I'd have very little motivation to do any of the story content since none of it would give me anything of real value. Kinda makes me glad I am a roleplayer as well or I wouldn't know what to do in this game.

I agree. I went through Silver and Gold on the characters that did it while levelling through veteran ranks. After they removed vet levels, I tried on my next couple of alts but I generally keep giving up during Silver and just making a new alt.

I guess to a lot of people it feels like levels are currently useless, but there are also a lot of people for whom levelling is progression. I have always played this way in games. With each level gained comes a sense of excitement and achievement, putting in attribute points and crafting a new set of gear. Grinding is not even considered because the game is about the journey. I'm not interested in "endgame" things in the slightest, so once I've reached max level I feel like that character is done.

If my alts were going to start as max level and wear the same gear as my main from day one, there would be no sense of progression at all and I would end up just quitting because there would be nothing left to do. That said, I wouldn't mind if they offered an instant level 50 pill in the crown store (for max CP accounts) for those of you that just can't handle playing anymore. As long as those of us who want to play it through can remain doing so.

DoctorWho1975

As someone who is very new i am enjoying the questing and discovery. I would not want to be put at a high rank inmediately, let me have my leveling fun.

Smasherx74

DoctorWho1975 wrote: »

As someone who is very new i am enjoying the questing and discovery. I would not want to be put at a high rank inmediately, let me have my leveling fun.

You aren't being put at a high rank immediately compared to what already is.

Unless you're not placing your CP points on new characters, you're not "being put at a high rank". The fact everything is scaled, means levels are irrelevant now. It's been an on going topic that CP would one day simply remove levels as well since they hold no relevance to the actual experience of your characters. There is a cross character "leveling" experience called CP in this game, sadly due to everything being scaled now it only makes sense to only have CP instead of the illusion of leveled content. I've posted this several times now, levels are completely pointless. It's much better to just have CP ranks so you can see how far someone else is than you, just as you can after you hit level 50.

DoctorWho1975

Ok, how about leave me alone and let me enjoy my leveling?

probablyafk

Leveling is good for a bit. It helps the economy keep running for one.

Gear is relative to ones level and has an impact on scaling in that way. It's important to allow people a proper introduction to a game and, effectively, 1-50 is that introduction. It enables slow introduction of skills, upgrading gear and lots of other fundamental philosophies that would be too much to dump on a new player all at once.

Enjoy your leveling up. And also enjoy leveling all your skills, the quests and everything. You don't need to rush at all anymore so it's even easier to enjoy

idk

@Smasherx74

Great idea. Have a CP561 character that has 3 skills and no passives. Without the skill points the character is fairly worthless.

vyndral13preub18_ESO

Annalyse wrote: »

Twilix01 wrote: »

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

Twilix01 wrote: »

I don't know about you guys but I would be pretty bored with a character fast if all I had to do was sit through character creation and then automatically have access to all my CP and equip CP160 gear within minutes of making the character. Where's the fun in that?

How so? What would you do differently? Quest? Still do it. Level skills? Still do it. Level Guild skill lines? Still do it. Work on getting proper gear? Still do it. Pvp? Still do it. Collect skill points? Still do it.

What exactly are you missing?

GeneralPardon wrote: »

I have to admit that I don't like going through the process of upgrading my riding skills. But instant max level no thanks. I'd be bored by the end of the day.
I don't like to do things like collecting skyshards when my character is max level. I don't like doing the main quest and guild quests with a max cp toon. I do that stuff when I'm levelling my character to 50. So please no max level chars when you've reached that once.

But you are. If you have a character at max cp then all your characters are max cp. battle scaling takes care of the rest. You may not like it but it is exactly what you are doing now.

I can't speak for anyone else (how could I?) but leveling is my main motivation to do content on a character. I didn't realize it at first before the veteran rank removal, but once that happened and I became well above the CP cap, I didn't feel like doing any of the leveling content on any level 50 character since I felt my time could be better spent on characters that are not level 50. If levels were removed as well and power was based on CP only, I'd have very little motivation to do any of the story content since none of it would give me anything of real value. Kinda makes me glad I am a roleplayer as well or I wouldn't know what to do in this game.

I agree. I went through Silver and Gold on the characters that did it while levelling through veteran ranks. After they removed vet levels, I tried on my next couple of alts but I generally keep giving up during Silver and just making a new alt.

I guess to a lot of people it feels like levels are currently useless, but there are also a lot of people for whom levelling is progression. I have always played this way in games. With each level gained comes a sense of excitement and achievement, putting in attribute points and crafting a new set of gear. Grinding is not even considered because the game is about the journey. I'm not interested in "endgame" things in the slightest, so once I've reached max level I feel like that character is done.

If my alts were going to start as max level and wear the same gear as my main from day one, there would be no sense of progression at all and I would end up just quitting because there would be nothing left to do. That said, I wouldn't mind if they offered an instant level 50 pill in the crown store (for max CP accounts) for those of you that just can't handle playing anymore. As long as those of us who want to play it through can remain doing so.

But do you think it says anything about the content. That once people feel it stops giving them anything, They quit doing it? Maybe I am reading to much into what you are saying. But you say the game is all about the journey. Yet you stop the journey when you no longer get a reward. A pat on the back and here are some skittles put them where you want. So it seems like the game is all about the reward, not the journey.

Nebthet78

Here is the thing though and it has a lot to do with each person's individual game experience.

As someone who has maxed out 8 characters. 3 of them were done when we had the OLD Vet levels that took forever and gave crappy XP. I am soooo tired of leveling.

I want to do end game trials. I don't give a flying f-word about PVP. It can kiss my behind. But, in order to do Vet Trials (not hard mode) I have to pretty much cookie cutter a build to get 25k DPS or more, before I would even be considered being taken by a group good enough not to spend 3hrs trying to get through it, only to quit in frustration.

It means, for the 9th effing time, I have go do quests I completed 8 other times over again, or go grinding in circles which is just as incredibley boring. I mean, the RNG in this game is bad enough with grinding when looking for end game armor pieces, and now that we are all boosted to max level, it pisses me off that the armor I get while trying to get this 9th character to level 50 receives level armor drops that I am never going to wear because there is no point. I keep wishing they would allow it to drop in CP160 so at least while I am leveling, I am gaining some pieces to end game gear since were are all levelled to CP160 any ways.

New people who are just coming into this game do not understand the burnout that is created by having to grind, grind, grind for everything in this game. People who only play very casually, don't understand it as much either. Nor do those who take long vacations from the game to come back after 6months or more when something is changed.

Try grinding out 5 or more characters and see how fun it becomes after a while. It gets very boring very quickly. And I am one of those players that played Skyrim on 3 gaming systems and played the story through at least 3 times on each. Thankfully the PC had command codes so I could bypass on that level and be immediately max level so I could screw around and have fun.

Now, I do feel that each player should be required to take at least one character through the storyline to max level first, before being given the option to bypass leveling all together on their next toon. That way they have to experience the initial storyline like everyone else in the beginning.

But I do not feel players should be forced into having to GRIND, GRIND and Grind some more just to be able to get back to playing the parts of the game they enjoyed previously, but can no longer do because ZOS changed things and they no longer meet the current Meta.

Thank God, Skyrim Special Edition (Remastered) is just around the corner, because I am needing a serious vacation from this game as it's getting less fun by the day.

Mayrael

My few words of support for the OP:
1. This whole lvl scaling now is against any RPG or cRPG logic - progression. Yeah you gain skill points and attributes but your stats are getting weaker with each lvl. On 3th lvl I had 1800 weap damage, on lvl 9 (after about 30mins of playing spent on skyshard hunting) it was 1400. So if I wont recraft my gear every half an hour I will become weaker and weaker with each lvl... Sounds fun doesnt it?
2. Scaling is... Wierd? On lvl 6 I had 33k stamina on lvl 7 30k on 8 31k... O_o
3. With max CPs my 10 lvl (yeah... I recrafted gear -_- what took me about the same amount of time as reaching 10lvls) toon have almost 20k single target DPS... Wait till Ill have second weapon!
4. Story blah blah blah... Most of the people that done story two or more times will just skip it and grind through lvls.

One argument against:
1. You will still have to grind to lvl up your skills and skill lines, so you will lvlup anyway.

Agalloch

Leveling 1-50 must stay in the game... There are many new players that must see..and feel the game.

I agree the actual system that come with One Tamriel is a little bit confusing...but levels must remain in the game.

Maybe Zos should make some adjustments to leveling from 1-50 ..to feel like a real progression and not to be so confusing like it is now. Main game should remain the same ...all other areas could be scaled..



English is not my native language.

RavenSworn

Mayrael wrote: »

My few words of support for the OP:
1. This whole lvl scaling now is against any RPG or cRPG logic - progression. Yeah you gain skill points and attributes but your stats are getting weaker with each lvl. On 3th lvl I had 1800 weap damage, on lvl 9 (after about 30mins of playing spent on skyshard hunting) it was 1400. So if I wont recraft my gear every half an hour I will become weaker and weaker with each lvl... Sounds fun doesnt it?
2. Scaling is... Wierd? On lvl 6 I had 33k stamina on lvl 7 30k on 8 31k... O_o
3. With max CPs my 10 lvl (yeah... I recrafted gear -_- what took me about the same amount of time as reaching 10lvls) toon have almost 20k single target DPS... Wait till Ill have second weapon!
4. Story blah blah blah... Most of the people that done story two or more times will just skip it and grind through lvls.

One argument against:
1. You will still have to grind to lvl up your skills and skill lines, so you will lvlup anyway.

Wait what? When did I vote you to be the speaker of the people? I've done the story more than 5times and I still haven't gotten tired of it. Where are you getting the numbers? Who are skipping? Your friends? Friends of your friends? Are you close to the development team that you have the statistics?

To the op: I'm sorry but I don't mind going through the lower levels, even if it is scaled to my level all the way. All it does is make my enemies on par with me. It doesn't make my levels irrelevant.

I've played an mmo with no levels, basically horizontal progression with skills. It's still levelling. And it's even more grindy than your usual mmo.

1-50 is your learning stage. All players should go through this. The current system allows new alts to have cp with them. This helps with the levelling. But to disregard the experience of new players and the learning curve is just irresponsible.

SickDuck

I agree with OP. Levels are pretty pointless since 1T. People with high CP will grind through fast and new players have a good chance to get confused/frustrated. Every time you lvlup now your stats get worse and out of place. On the other hand game difficulty stays the same as you get in Wailing Prison.

The following things are tied to levelling atm:
- some skill points
- main stats (but you only tweak the ratio of them, the total amount is always controlled by scaling)
- main quest progression
- access to veteran dungeons and trials
- gaining CP (but you can still use all CP gained on veteran toons)

All of above can be tied to CP or something else. Access to veteran dungeons could require completion of the normal version - something that is currently not a requirement.

There is no progression anymore. Once out of WP you are free to do whatever you want. That was one of the main selling points. No hand holding. It works well seasoned players but not sure if good for newcomers.

Btw you do get nice tutorials in Wailing Prison, altought everything is demonstrated only once. This could be improved by adding some skill tests there. One option would be to have all 64 stats and some skill points handed out once player leaves WP. That would give a nice shortcut to repeating players since WP can be skipped once completed on a toon.

Suter1972

Is this more not a problem with levelling but the fact that the areas are scaled?

Would it not be easier to keep the areas as whatever they were before, ie starter, mid, end game level areas and just open everything up?

I used to like bossing a zone then unlocking the next and getting owned by mudcrabs again. Rinse/repeat.

I like the idea of ‘go anywhere, with anyone’ but would like to have some fear of new areas. If I just get scaled up, the fear is gone and makes exploring that bit less exciting.

I also take the point if you have run through the game once, you don’t need to do it again. You know the mechanics so surely to would safe to drop such a player in at cp 60?

The flipside is, they may have run through as one character build but may not have any knowledge of a different build. I put myself in that bracket as I have no idea how a tank would play for eg

Wild_Monk

MasterSpatula wrote: »

Not sure if trolling or serious.

But if trolling, I'm with you.

Attention moderators!
New tactics of trolls. Troll begins to insult someone, accusing him of trolling.
Perform Your work!
Or you will be accused of what you have on the Forum there are your personal trolls.

Master Spatula, you local clown? Looking for popularity on the Internet? And how successful are you in real life?

Wild_Monk

Smasherx74 wrote: »

Seems to me levels have absolutely no point behind them anymore. Since everything is scaled that is.

Just let us create characters starting off with our CP. No point in forcing people to go through levels or waste time not earning CP. It'd also help the ease the CP Grind fest so people creating new characters can gain a lot of extra CP just by completing the main quests.

---

The exact comment. If a player once reached the level of a veteran, he must in the future by creating a new character, immediately create character Veteran. That is, getting the number of abilities that he has already earned in the game.

Stupid to run a month, killing monsters and doing quests already know, every time.

buxuus

The levelling process is about specialisation, refining your toon into something more effective. The scaling means that you start out with a generic toon that can be refined through allocation of skill and attribute points in to one more effective at a specific role. The level system is just a convenient way to handle this, and now is pretty similar to the way levelling worked in Skyrim (allocate your attribute point and skill point, and if you make a mistake the monsters will still kill you).

My take is that since ESO is trying to be a Elder Scrolls game there is only an "endgame" because you can no longer level through exploration and questing. Actually this is a common problem with MMOs, since how else can the companies encourage players to stick around... so they have to provide a solution to the "I've hit the level cap, now what" problem. Many players enjoy the levelling process more than the endgame, and as noted in other posts, just create new characters to level when they hit the cap. Kind of makes you wish for a reincarnation mechanism like the one used by DDO

Now ZOS could choose to convert levels into CP and hide the fact that your are still levelling, by just changing the name from "Level" to "CP", but the process would likely mean that CP was no longer account wide. Or they could introduce methods to create characters at the level cap so you can go straight to endgame... so you can bypass the levelling process and not know how to play the build you've chosen.

Given that you can respec character race, attributes and skills already, players who have characters at the level cap can already do this. Take one levelled toon and respec to your new build. Since there are only four classes, you only have to level four times. Since there are the three alliance story lines, PvP and the DLC to play with that doesn't seem like much of a hardship.

agegarton

Smasherx74 wrote: »

Seems to me levels have absolutely no point behind them anymore. Since everything is scaled that is.

Just let us create characters starting off with our CP. No point in forcing people to go through levels or waste time not earning CP. It'd also help the ease the CP Grind fest so people creating new characters can gain a lot of extra CP just by completing the main quests.

I agree - if you've already got a character to level 50, done the main quest and fought with Molag, you should have the OPTION to create new characters who land in-game at Level 50. Given that Champion Points already transfer across to newly created builds, combined with the new style of gameplay and battle levelling brought in with 1T, it makes no sense that I'm creating new characters at level 1 (Unless I want to, of course!).

xRIVALENx

The feeling of progression while leveling from 1-50 seems to be lost which is a bit of a drag while leveling new characters and must be a little underwhelming for new players. On a side note I am loving my low level Nightblade decked out in Red Mountain and Vipers gear

Suter1972

Wild_Monk wrote: »

MasterSpatula wrote: »

Not sure if trolling or serious.

But if trolling, I'm with you.

Attention moderators!
New tactics of trolls. Troll begins to insult someone, accusing him of trolling.
Perform Your work!
Or you will be accused of what you have on the Forum there are your personal trolls.

Master Spatula, you local clown? Looking for popularity on the Internet? And how successful are you in real life?

That's strange as Master spatula joined in 2014 and has over 1400 comments with more 'insightfuls' than you have total comments. Whereas yourself.....not so many...

I don't know if theres irony in your post....

Niaver

Yeah i feel like i'm wasting my time leveling my alt without gaining experience in CP.

Just let us gain exp in CP on every character when you have one 50+ character and everything's cool.

Ravena

It does work as training, imo.

Trublz

I am against this, while I agree that lvls are kind of pointless now.
But I could see them doing this in the future. If they do.. They will have to raise the gear cap considerably. Maybe to cp200?

CombatPrayer

I believe they are meant to give people a chance to learn new skills for new classes they have not used before. But in all honestly, with so many people that speed level, I doubt that ever happens. The leveling system is completely borked anyway with regards to what skills you get when. Having players wait till level 40ish to get an aoe in some of the classes is just completely messed up. AOE should be around level 20 something IMHO. Then these low level toons might be able to contribute a little more in dungeons and learn more about the utility of AOE early on. I've seen many players around cp10-50 not even aware of how important AOEs are because they don't get access to them until so late and by then that have a playstyle that excludes a key skill that was not granted to them earlier. Terrible design right there. Truly terrible.

Rune_Relic

1-50 is training your character definition and getting used to new skills and how they work.
It also lets you fine tune attribute point distribution into stats..so that you can specialise.
[admitted its kind of pointless if all people do is put 64 point into attribute X]

Do you need to train another templar if you already know all the templar skills ?
Well if you havent learnt ALL of the templar skills and such.....probably.

At the end of the day a character is not an account.
Character are individuals...so shouldnt be account wide.
ie I have levelled character X so character Y must also be fully levelled.

Its also amusing how those who do trials say trials is endgame content.
... those who do group dungeons say Vet dungeons is endgame content.
... those who do PvP say Cyrodiil is endgame content.
... those who craft consider 9 trait crafting endgame content.
... those who farm consider 8 characters farming all mats with a trading machine endgame content.
What it really means is 'I want to do this all the time' so remove anything thats in the way.

Of course if CP was horizontal and not vertical progression....you wouldnt need to max out CP ASAP... so it wouldnt need to be an account wide instant 'gimme now' system because 'power' was locked behind a grind wall.

Kodrac

Ummm... no.

DocFrost72

OP, constructively, levels do matter. As was discussed earlier, I will gladly duel any level 20 or below on my bad toons. Why? Because leveling still grants power. Leveling unlocks skills, attributes, and hell at level 20 you cannot physically unlock certain skills.

While having the game scaled does create a sense of stagnant in the world, and I will admit that, so did Skyrim. All you need to do to prove leveling does give you power is try ICP with 4 level 10s. Go ahead, it's scaled.

dodgehopper_ESO

I have a feeling that ZoS is gradually moving toward a CP-only level system, and they're just doing so in a gentle manner.

Mayrael

My few words of support

uniq_faznrb18_ESO wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

My few words of support for the OP:
1. This whole lvl scaling now is against any RPG or cRPG logic - progression. Yeah you gain skill points and attributes but your stats are getting weaker with each lvl. On 3th lvl I had 1800 weap damage, on lvl 9 (after about 30mins of playing spent on skyshard hunting) it was 1400. So if I wont recraft my gear every half an hour I will become weaker and weaker with each lvl... Sounds fun doesnt it?
2. Scaling is... Wierd? On lvl 6 I had 33k stamina on lvl 7 30k on 8 31k... O_o
3. With max CPs my 10 lvl (yeah... I recrafted gear -_- what took me about the same amount of time as reaching 10lvls) toon have almost 20k single target DPS... Wait till Ill have second weapon!
4. Story blah blah blah... Most of the people that done story two or more times will just skip it and grind through lvls.

One argument against:
1. You will still have to grind to lvl up your skills and skill lines, so you will lvlup anyway.

Wait what? When did I vote you to be the speaker of the people? I've done the story more than 5times and I still haven't gotten tired of it. Where are you getting the numbers? Who are skipping? Your friends? Friends of your friends? Are you close to the development team that you have the statistics?

To the op: I'm sorry but I don't mind going through the lower levels, even if it is scaled to my level all the way. All it does is make my enemies on par with me. It doesn't make my levels irrelevant.

I've played an mmo with no levels, basically horizontal progression with skills. It's still levelling. And it's even more grindy than your usual mmo.

1-50 is your learning stage. All players should go through this. The current system allows new alts to have cp with them. This helps with the levelling. But to disregard the experience of new players and the learning curve is just irresponsible.

I read forums? Thats why? And use common sense.... Like yeah Im rly excited on doing this quest eight time yay if this only would be quests like in old Gothic or Witcher 3 where you have dosens of ways to do it and they rly change how world looks like than yeah. But now? They are fun, but just at the first two three times. To repeatable and one way.

altemriel

Smasherx74 wrote: »

Seems to me levels have absolutely no point behind them anymore. Since everything is scaled that is.

Just let us create characters starting off with our CP. No point in forcing people to go through levels or waste time not earning CP. It'd also help the ease the CP Grind fest so people creating new characters can gain a lot of extra CP just by completing the main quests.

The thing you are probably missing is, that you are not totally max level scalled. Only your character stats are. Your skills are not and also the higher level of armor and weapons you wear, the higher your skills get too.

Smasherx74

altemriel wrote: »

Smasherx74 wrote: »

Seems to me levels have absolutely no point behind them anymore. Since everything is scaled that is.

Just let us create characters starting off with our CP. No point in forcing people to go through levels or waste time not earning CP. It'd also help the ease the CP Grind fest so people creating new characters can gain a lot of extra CP just by completing the main quests.

The thing you are probably missing is, that you are not totally max level scalled. Only your character stats are. Your skills are not and also the higher level of armor and weapons you wear, the higher your skills get too.

The same with attribute points... every 10 or so CP increase your attribute points and "bing".

They could do this all the way up to max CP as well.