Why have levels anymore? Just let us start new characters at our max cp...

vyndral13preub18_ESO

Twilix01 wrote: »

I don't know about you guys but I would be pretty bored with a character fast if all I had to do was sit through character creation and then automatically have access to all my CP and equip CP160 gear within minutes of making the character. Where's the fun in that?

How so? What would you do differently? Quest? Still do it. Level skills? Still do it. Level Guild skill lines? Still do it. Work on getting proper gear? Still do it. Pvp? Still do it. Collect skill points? Still do it.

What exactly are you missing?

GeneralPardon wrote: »

I have to admit that I don't like going through the process of upgrading my riding skills. But instant max level no thanks. I'd be bored by the end of the day.
I don't like to do things like collecting skyshards when my character is max level. I don't like doing the main quest and guild quests with a max cp toon. I do that stuff when I'm levelling my character to 50. So please no max level chars when you've reached that once.

But you are. If you have a character at max cp then all your characters are max cp. battle scaling takes care of the rest. You may not like it but it is exactly what you are doing now.

GeneralPardon

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

Twilix01 wrote: »

I don't know about you guys but I would be pretty bored with a character fast if all I had to do was sit through character creation and then automatically have access to all my CP and equip CP160 gear within minutes of making the character. Where's the fun in that?

How so? What would you do differently? Quest? Still do it. Level skills? Still do it. Level Guild skill lines? Still do it. Work on getting proper gear? Still do it. Pvp? Still do it. Collect skill points? Still do it.

What exactly are you missing?

I know that I'm not the quoted guy but for me it's like this: when I reach my max cp I wanna start on content that I enjoy rather than content that I need to finish before I can do the content that I want although I have the gear and cp. when I'm pre level 50 I'm forced to do different types of content because my favourite content is simply not available yet(FYI I play usually only vet trials and dungeons).
Maybe for me it's a tool to force me to do the mandatory content(main/guild/faction quests)

Preypacer

From the perspective of someone returning to the game after a while away, and who never got further than their 30s on one character, I actually rather like the way it is. I don't want to have it where "you're just raced to the end" - there's too many MMOs out there based around this "get everyone to level cap ASAP", and in some cases, it happens even if you don't want it to (looking at WoW here, with FFXIV slowly catching up).

I read comments by people saying "it allows players to start the game and then quickly catch up to the end-game". What's the hurry? I don't know why this attitude of "the real game starts at the end, and everything before that is just a tutorial or filler" ever started, but it sounds completely ridiculous to me. The real game starts at character creation, and everything from that point, 'til you decide to stop playing, is "the real game". It's all part of the experience, not just "the bit at the end".

I understand there are a lot of people who disagree with me on that (believe me, they tell me how wrong I am all the time). What they need to understand is not all of us want to quickly catch up to the end, though. I kinda wish people would stop presuming to speak for all players, as though "all newer players want to get to the end faster". That isn't so. For myself, I'm really enjoying taking my time just being out in the world, exploring and doing quests - esp. now that I can go anywhere in Tamriel. Took me several hours to go from level 7 to 8 on a new character, and I'm absolutely fine with that, because I was having a lot of fun along the way.

In other MMOs, where they're in a hurry to get you to the end, it feels like I'm barely scratching the surface of an area, or some quest-line, before I've out-leveled it.

Zenimax have crafted an amazing game/world, with tons to do and learn and experience. I, for one, am not in any hurry to "get it over with".

Twilix01

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

Twilix01 wrote: »

I don't know about you guys but I would be pretty bored with a character fast if all I had to do was sit through character creation and then automatically have access to all my CP and equip CP160 gear within minutes of making the character. Where's the fun in that?

How so? What would you do differently? Quest? Still do it. Level skills? Still do it. Level Guild skill lines? Still do it. Work on getting proper gear? Still do it. Pvp? Still do it. Collect skill points? Still do it.

What exactly are you missing?

GeneralPardon wrote: »

I have to admit that I don't like going through the process of upgrading my riding skills. But instant max level no thanks. I'd be bored by the end of the day.
I don't like to do things like collecting skyshards when my character is max level. I don't like doing the main quest and guild quests with a max cp toon. I do that stuff when I'm levelling my character to 50. So please no max level chars when you've reached that once.

But you are. If you have a character at max cp then all your characters are max cp. battle scaling takes care of the rest. You may not like it but it is exactly what you are doing now.

I can't speak for anyone else (how could I?) but leveling is my main motivation to do content on a character. I didn't realize it at first before the veteran rank removal, but once that happened and I became well above the CP cap, I didn't feel like doing any of the leveling content on any level 50 character since I felt my time could be better spent on characters that are not level 50. If levels were removed as well and power was based on CP only, I'd have very little motivation to do any of the story content since none of it would give me anything of real value. Kinda makes me glad I am a roleplayer as well or I wouldn't know what to do in this game.

Soafee

I'm new to the game. This wouldn't be very fun for me at all.. I doubt there are droves of new players coming to the game right now.. If all of the vets could just skip low level content, there would be no one out there for me to play with... I"m afraid of this anyway. I hope this huge down load is worth it. I won't be playing until tomorrow

Smasherx74

SirAndy wrote: »

Smasherx74 wrote: »

Seems to me levels have absolutely no point behind them anymore.

This is what I hate about the forums.


Absolutely no argument, just opinion. I'm crazy for stating Levels have no point behind them now, after providing sufficient evidence to support my claim.... How can we have a debate or get anything done if people will just dismiss something rational as irrational with no rational reasoning behind why it is?

Inklings

I leveled my 20th Max level character today. It took a bit over 4 hours. There is no reason to change the way it works when it's that quick to level to 50.

AzraelKrieg

Smasherx74 wrote: »

SirAndy wrote: »

Smasherx74 wrote: »

Seems to me levels have absolutely no point behind them anymore.

This is what I hate about the forums.


Absolutely no argument, just opinion. I'm crazy for stating Levels have no point behind them now, after providing sufficient evidence to support my claim.... How can we have a debate or get anything done if people will just dismiss something rational as irrational with no rational reasoning behind why it is?

People have been providing arguments against your post but you've cherry picked the responses you want to support your argument. You are essentially the same as an anti-vaxxer

Smasherx74

Inklings wrote: »

I leveled my 20th Max level character today. It took a bit over 4 hours. There is no reason to change the way it works when it's that quick to level to 50.

That's another reason why levels should be demolished. People just grind them on new characters without even completing the story. If we make CP from start to finish, and make the main quests provide more skill points, and give certain CP marks like 5cp or 10cp to give an attribute point, then people would be more focused on actually completing content instead of grinding somewhere just to do end game content.

Grinding isn't fun, and those who feel this will make them feel op, well you already are OP with CP. Just don't spec it and you won't be OP anymore. Just don't wear cp160 gear and you wont be OP any more.


I really hope ZOS is planning on doing what I've suggested here.

Smasherx74

AzraelKrieg wrote: »

Smasherx74 wrote: »

SirAndy wrote: »

Smasherx74 wrote: »

Seems to me levels have absolutely no point behind them anymore.

This is what I hate about the forums.


Absolutely no argument, just opinion. I'm crazy for stating Levels have no point behind them now, after providing sufficient evidence to support my claim.... How can we have a debate or get anything done if people will just dismiss something rational as irrational with no rational reasoning behind why it is?

People have been providing arguments against your post but you've cherry picked the responses you want to support your argument. You are essentially the same as an anti-vaxxer

Strawman?


I've refuted every argument, can you clarify on what I have not refuted?

Smasherx74

AzraelKrieg wrote: »

Smasherx74 wrote: »

SirAndy wrote: »

Smasherx74 wrote: »

Seems to me levels have absolutely no point behind them anymore.

This is what I hate about the forums.


Absolutely no argument, just opinion. I'm crazy for stating Levels have no point behind them now, after providing sufficient evidence to support my claim.... How can we have a debate or get anything done if people will just dismiss something rational as irrational with no rational reasoning behind why it is?

People have been providing arguments against your post but you've cherry picked the responses you want to support your argument. You are essentially the same as an anti-vaxxer

Since you seem to think I'm cherry picking things how about I do this.



Argument A: Levels are the starter content for people to understand the games mechanics

Counter argument A: This is no longer the case since everything is scaled, levels were intended to play against LEVELED content. Now that everything is scaled there is no point to a lvl30 fighting a lvl40, the lvl30 will just be scaled to lvl40 anyways.

Smasherx74

Provide further arguments for me to refute. I don't mind, if you honestly and genuinely think I'm cherry picking that's because I can't repeat my self a thousand times... @AzraelKrieg

Preypacer

Smasherx74 wrote: »

Inklings wrote: »

I leveled my 20th Max level character today. It took a bit over 4 hours. There is no reason to change the way it works when it's that quick to level to 50.

That's another reason why levels should be demolished. People just grind them on new characters without even completing the story. If we make CP from start to finish, and make the main quests provide more skill points, and give certain CP marks like 5cp or 10cp to give an attribute point, then people would be more focused on actually completing content instead of grinding somewhere just to do end game content.

Grinding isn't fun, and those who feel this will make them feel op, well you already are OP with CP. Just don't spec it and you won't be OP anymore. Just don't wear cp160 gear and you wont be OP any more.


I really hope ZOS is planning on doing what I've suggested here.

Whoah whoah whoah.

I am not "just grinding on new characters without even completing the story". I'm going through the entire story and following everything going on. This is what I mean by people attempting to speak for everyone. Not everyone playing this already has multiple characters leveled and/or is just "grinding through the stories not but paying attention".

If they introduce another way to control the pacing at which players attain skill-points that isn't just "rushed through to get to the end", but maintains a similar pacing to leveling, then I'd be fine with that. But if it's "remove levels and make skill points faster to get so people can hurry to the end because they don't care about story and already have other max level characters", then I'd say "no thank you, not everyone is a veteran who's bored with and trying to race through the content"

ESO is not a game solely ruled over by Veteran players. There's a wide range of people representing a wide range of playstyles and preferences.

Smasherx74

Preypacer wrote: »

Smasherx74 wrote: »

Inklings wrote: »

I leveled my 20th Max level character today. It took a bit over 4 hours. There is no reason to change the way it works when it's that quick to level to 50.

That's another reason why levels should be demolished. People just grind them on new characters without even completing the story. If we make CP from start to finish, and make the main quests provide more skill points, and give certain CP marks like 5cp or 10cp to give an attribute point, then people would be more focused on actually completing content instead of grinding somewhere just to do end game content.

Grinding isn't fun, and those who feel this will make them feel op, well you already are OP with CP. Just don't spec it and you won't be OP anymore. Just don't wear cp160 gear and you wont be OP any more.


I really hope ZOS is planning on doing what I've suggested here.

Whoah whoah whoah.

I am not "just grinding on new characters without even completing the story". I'm going through the entire story and following everything going on. This is what I mean by people attempting to speak for everyone. Not everyone playing this already has multiple characters leveled and/or is just "grinding through the stories not but paying attention".

If you're on your first character, then starting off with CP will allow you to see how other players who would be the same level as you, have more CP hence why they are doing so much better than you. I'm repeating my self at this point which I hoped to avoid because I don't want to state the same argument 1000x over like I have in countless other threads where people refuse to read every post.


Level 20 dps/healer ques for normal dungeon. He has trouble sustaining heals, while another level 20 with exact same setup heals through everything no problem with non-stop healing. The level 20 dps/healer is wondering "well why am I having resource problems", turns out that level 20 dps/healer is CP0 while the other lvl20 is CP 500 and has 100 points in magicka reduce cost and regen.

Smasherx74

Not that you're actually saying anything, but I'm assuming this is what you're getting at. All it seems to me is in that post you made was simply to attack what I've said. Please don't do that.

Volrion

While I can see your point from a PVE perspective, I actually disagree with this change.

I have 5 vets, two level 32s, and one level 25.

The only reason my remaining three aren't maxed yet is because I enjoy going into BWB from time to time for a change of pace/gameplay.

I vet pvp/dungeon crawl most of the time. But jumping into a lowbie campaign without cancer proc sets and major imbalance is actually quite nice.

I would say they could give us an option to choose to jump to vet, but it's really just a waste of dev time. I'd rather they spend their efforts on more productive things.

Just this week I grinded my 8th slot from 3 to 25 in an hour in Rkindalef with a buddy. (Witch festival/training gear/XP pot)

If you want to skip the lowbie game, just learn how to efficiently grind.

AzraelKrieg

MasterSpatula wrote: »

Not sure if trolling or serious.

But if trolling, I'm with you.

He's serious unfortunately. Though it's not the first time he's made a topic like this where people have come in with arguments against it that are concise and well thought out and he has flat out ignored them because they don't support his argument. It's just better to ignore any topic he makes because they will always end in a nonsensical rabble where nothing is ever accomplished.

vyndral13preub18_ESO

GeneralPardon wrote: »

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

Twilix01 wrote: »

I don't know about you guys but I would be pretty bored with a character fast if all I had to do was sit through character creation and then automatically have access to all my CP and equip CP160 gear within minutes of making the character. Where's the fun in that?

How so? What would you do differently? Quest? Still do it. Level skills? Still do it. Level Guild skill lines? Still do it. Work on getting proper gear? Still do it. Pvp? Still do it. Collect skill points? Still do it.

What exactly are you missing?

I know that I'm not the quoted guy but for me it's like this: when I reach my max cp I wanna start on content that I enjoy rather than content that I need to finish before I can do the content that I want although I have the gear and cp. when I'm pre level 50 I'm forced to do different types of content because my favourite content is simply not available yet(FYI I play usually only vet trials and dungeons).
Maybe for me it's a tool to force me to do the mandatory content(main/guild/faction quests)

While I can't argue that since I am sort of in the same boat. It is funny to come out and say, I like this because it makes me do content I don't enjoy as much as what I would really like to be doing.

Smasherx74

AzraelKrieg wrote: »

MasterSpatula wrote: »

Not sure if trolling or serious.

But if trolling, I'm with you.

He's serious unfortunately. Though it's not the first time he's made a topic like this where people have come in with arguments against it that are concise and well thought out and he has flat out ignored them because they don't support his argument. It's just better to ignore any topic he makes because they will always end in a nonsensical rabble where nothing is ever accomplished.

Please don't do this. You've blatantly lied about me cherry picking good posts, I made several posts refuting basic arguments against my suggestion.

I'm going to report you if you insist on trashing my thread with straw mans. Please, do not do this again. If you have any issue with my suggestion then let me know what it is exactly, don't speak vaguely to appear as if you have made a point when you have not.

Preypacer

Smasherx74 wrote: »

If you're on your first character, then starting off with CP will allow you to see how other players who would be the same level as you, have more CP hence why they are doing so much better than you. I'm repeating my self at this point which I hoped to avoid because I don't want to state the same argument 1000x over like I have in countless other threads where people refuse to read every post.


Level 20 dps/healer ques for normal dungeon. He has trouble sustaining heals, while another level 20 with exact same setup heals through everything no problem with non-stop healing. The level 20 dps/healer is wondering "well why am I having resource problems", turns out that level 20 dps/healer is CP0 while the other lvl20 is CP 500 and has 100 points in magicka reduce cost and regen.

First, I've read your posts in this thread, and seeing you dismiss the replies of everyone who disagrees with you as "not reading your posts" or "not understanding you" is really getting tiresome. It's completely disingenuous and shows you as being close-minded to any opinion but your own. You're not looking for good-faith discussion or debate. You're looking for an echo chamber of people who only agree with you. This much is obvious just by reading your posts, where you keep insisting you are "refuting others' arguments" when all you're really doing is effectively shutting your ears and saying "I'm right I'm right I'm right I'm right!". You're not providing sufficient evidence to back up your arguments - you're engaging in confirmation bias. You're conjuring up examples and scenarios that just so happen to support the conclusion you already came to before even posting it, based entirely on your own perception of them. How convenient.

Next, I'll ask again... Could you please stop projecting your own preferences/views on to others, or assuming that others are going to see things the same you do? I think this thread (and probably all the others you've, apparently, posted in) should demonstrate that not everyone shares your point-of-view on this subject.

I don't care if someone's further along than me and more powerful. I don't care if someone's able to heal better than me because they're further along. It really doesn't phase me, because my enjoyment comes from my own sense of progression - not by comparison of "how much further or more powerful others are". I'm playing my game. They're playing theirs. If I find myself in a group where someone's a similar role and doing way better than me, I'll ask them for some tips/advice on how I can do as well as they are. I don't consider people better than me as a "problem". I see it as an opportunity to learn something.

If I'm in a group as a healer... I dont' care if someone's doing more healing than me. They're more progressed and have access to more powerful abilities. Cool! That's certainly a benefit for the group! I'll help fill in with off-heals as much as I can.

I think the best conclusion you could come to at this point is "agreeing to disagree", because you're not going to change people's minds - especially not when you're continually dismissing their arguments while demanding they accept yours.

ConeOfSilence

I have recently started a 5th toon but I am going to grind it through to 50 and do the skill points only story line afterwards. Currently to me doing the grind is less boring than doing the story line for the 5th time.

YeOldeGamer

MattT1988 wrote: »

Smasherx74 wrote: »

You guys don't seem to understand...

No, we do understand, most of us just don't agree with you.

Gallifreyy

Yet another person that wants everything handed to them on a silver platter. You my friend have some sort of L2P issue. Leveling is an important part of any MMO and you say that levels are unimportant because everything is scaled. The 1-50 is the time you use to level skills get skill points and learn the new skills that you get with leveling up. i have leveled and deleted many characters and i dont hate the 1-50 process because its needed for a sense of progression on that character and in the game in general. You seem to think people are attacking you when they disagree with you because you are a lot on the obnoxious side of "i'm always right because" forum warrior posts. Please be constructive with your posts

probablyafk

I think the intent was exactly what the OP has stated - I think ZOS wanted to make levels basically redundant. The aim was (IMO) to better emulate the feeling in Skyrim where the world is open and game play isn't about leveling up your character level but instead working on skills, guilds, storylines, collections and other stuff.

I think they are trying to remove levels as a gateway - levels now are just an indication to other players about your characters general skill caps. It's a way of other players to check if you're advanced enough for some content but it doesn't limit you from exploring whatever part of the game you like. CPs are an extension ot that - they determine suitability and provide a way for people to see how much of the game you've experienced.

Their goal as I see it was to make the new ESO:1T is about exploring the things you want to explore. I find myself thinking less about grinding another few levels (CP or levels) and more about goals I want to accomplish - like getting a new skill morphed or getting a new CP ability unlocked. It doesn't matter when I do things, only that I do them.

When you think about the game from that perspective it's more about letting you find your own options and having to work to get the rewards tht matter to you.

My only real complaint about 1T is that it takes away the ability to play at different difficulty levels to a large degree. While leveling up you can't really do 'easier' content and I think this hurts some people. You also can only do harder content by doing dungeons/vets and world bosses ... but since those are all group content ... well I think it'd be great if we could determine a slow-easy gameplay vs. a fast-hard gameplay for all these now-highlighted content paths.

I believe that some people find this structure daunting. Many people don't actually like Skyrim precisely because it's so open world and lacking in structure. They play the main story and then quit. I think levels - and the closed faction stories to a lesser extent - provide a solid path for those people who don't know how to just explore their character. This is a mindset thing though and ZOS have certainly made a statement with 1T about what they think makes a good gaming experience.

So - summary:
To those who argue the original OP is about wanting everything on a silver platter - I think you guys have missed the point, as has the OP. Levels just don't matter almost at all now. You can argue either way but it's the truth. Levels and then CP are just a framework so that you don't max-out your experience while you work on other things.

It's actually very clever.

p.s.
If you think of collections as being one of the things that removal of leveling gateways allows to become more accessible, then you begin to understand why we're seeing such movement in the crown store now. Collectables will become a large part ofthe game because leveling/grinding is not the intended reason for you to play.

probablyafk

Oh, haha. More to add:

The only reason I think they make us go through the main story etc each time we play is because they have not been able to change it. It's too hard coded into the quests and gameplay through-out the world and I doubt they have time to add in all the triggers to do a "oh you've already saved the world" state to every part of the game for your future characters.

Otherwise I imagine they would do this. ZOS want us grinding skills, equipment, zones, achievements and collectables. Especially collectables. Why would they want us to be slowed by a quest?

SandraOwen

I agree, the levels seem pointless now since the patch you can see where you have been but not how well you have achieved where you have been so the leveling seems ridiculous now its just hack hack hack but no single expertice to achieve it.

probablyafk

Removing leveling though would remove a framework that helps the other interesting parts of the game function. It doesn't make a difference so why do we care if it exists or not? Levels are convenient but hardly have the importance they once did.

NBrookus

Soafee wrote: »

I'm new to the game. This wouldn't be very fun for me at all.. I doubt there are droves of new players coming to the game right now.. If all of the vets could just skip low level content, there would be no one out there for me to play with... I"m afraid of this anyway. I hope this huge down load is worth it. I won't be playing until tomorrow

With One Tamriel, this is no longer true. Since everyone is scaled, I'm seeing a lot more mixing of high and low level characters. There is no "low level" content anymore.

probablyafk

Agreed. The zones feel more full than ever. Sometimes I actually dislike this as I quite enjoyed some of the strange empty places around. But then ... it's an MMO so it's a little rough to complain about that

MerkzM8

I don't mind levelling 1-50 but it's getting fighters guild, mages guild and crafting levelled on my characters.