All vet dungeons buffed?

UrQuan · October 2016

Were all vet dungeons buffed in difficulty with One Tamriel? I did vet Wayrest II last night, and we got through it fine (although one boss cast his fear thing on me and I ended up stuck inside a staircase from it, and we did wipe once on the final boss when the 2 DPS and the healer unexpectedly died while grabbing the zombies, and I couldn't res them because of bats interrupting me - I was able to kill all but 1 bat before the bosses reappeared, but then it went to bat phase again and I gave up and let them kill me because my DPS as a tank just wasn't good enough to get rid of the bats and give me a chance at resurrecting the others), but everything took significantly longer than I'm used to, and it seemed like either everything had a lot more health or a lot more resistance. Talking with a few other people, they mentioned similar experiences, and I see that there's a thread about vet ICP having bosses with far more health than they used to have.

I know that on PTS there were a significant number of us who thought that the difficulty of the new vet versions of the original 16 dungeons (ie. the ones that were always non-vet) needed to be buffed because frankly they weren't noticeably harder than the non-vet versions, they were just more time consuming. I don't think anyone was asking for the existing vet dungeons to have their difficulty increased though. There was an update made on PTS to increase the dungeon difficulty, and unfortunately I never ended up getting a chance to test those changes, but I'm wondering if that update applied to all vet versions of dungeons, rather than just to the new ones.

Has anyone else experienced increased difficulty in the existing vet dungeons since One Tamriel?

Darlon · October 2016

Yeah, there seems to be a slight buff to certain bosses. I like it.

MissBizz · October 2016

@Darlon Oh it is a likeable thing. I just think it was quite surprising. Took us much longer to take down even trash, not just bosses. And those zombies.. yeah.. insta-wiped 3 of us somehow haha.

UrQuan · October 2016

Well, for the DLC vet dungeons I think it's a terrible idea to buff them. Sure, there's a small percent of the players who can do the vet DLC dungeons in their sleep and who might appreciate some extra difficulty, but for inexperienced players they were already almost impossible, and for most experienced players they were already considered difficult.

For the "base game" vet dungeons (not talking about the new vet versions of the existing non-vet dungeons) the buff is absolutely fine for experienced players, but it contributes to the big difficulty gap between the non-vet dungeons and the vet ones. For newer players or players who are just starting to do dungeons, when you feel comfortable doing the non-vet ones and you decide to switch to the vet versions, it's a huge leap in difficulty rather than a step up.

phreatophile · October 2016

Selene's web was 50/50, everything leading up to the last boss was a cakewalk even the one with the 4 spirit senches. Selene was a long fight for our group, which granted, wasn't exactly optimized . The spirit bear was a one-shot even for the tank.

magnusthorek · October 2016

Although some level of difficulty is good, in my opinion as developer, no changes should go unwarned, like when a long time ago ZOS changed how the Life Sentence achievement work and screwed me ever since.

Of course... Unless it WAS mentioned and I missed. I didn't have time to read the whole natch potes yet.

Soleya · October 2016

Darlon wrote: »

Yeah, there seems to be a slight buff to certain bosses. I like it.

And large buffs to all trash mobs. Took like 3 times longer to kill the trash mobs in wayrest 2 than before.

wayfarerx · October 2016

Noticed the same thing in vet Wayrest II and vet Arx. Trash mobs taking much longer to kill, actually having to pay attention to boss mechanics because they didn't just die immediately, etc.

Everyone in my group thought it was a good change though. Before this vet Wayrest II was pretty a boring button mashing experience, now I feel like I actually have to pay attention.

Apherius · October 2016

wayfarerx wrote: »

Noticed the same thing in vet Wayrest II and vet Arx. Trash mobs taking much longer to kill, actually having to pay attention to boss mechanics because they didn't just die immediately, etc.

Everyone in my group thought it was a good change though. Before this vet Wayrest II was pretty a boring button mashing experience, now I feel like I actually have to pay attention.

Agree !

lockator · October 2016

They also massively increased the HP of bosses in the old vets.

Eg. Bloodspawn went from 1.4m to 4m.
It means that Zos intentionally or unintentionally (stealth) buffed all the old vets. Now im not complaining, VCOA had become a joke.

But does mean that the old vets have become harder and the 'new' vets are a breeze until the last boss (bc ppl like me who started playing around TG were unaware that these bosses even had mechanics

)

vyndral13preub18_ESO · October 2016

I didnt notice much difference in wayrest. The bosses seemed to maybe take a touch longer but that may have been because I did it with 2 dps a healer and a tank.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · October 2016

The noticeable buff that I have seen to vet dungeons is that everything seems to have more health. I havent noticed anything hitting harder, and we have been farming tank free. I haven't been in any of the top tier dungeons like ICP or COS to see if those have changed. As for the old normal dungeons, it's like a whole new world of mechanics I have been igorning since launch. Haha

Midori_Oku · October 2016

I'm curious, anyone know how much HP the Fire Maw and mobs with him have in CoA?

Doctordarkspawn · October 2016

Basicly the only thing that changed to me was that the bosses do mildly more damage now (Exept for one shot mechanics like Selenes bear rush that now do 40 K) and trash mobs have 400 K health each making them unnecessarily long to kill.

...Nobody likes to spend too much time on trash. We have to spend too much time on trash now.

The boss buff only really serves to basicly eliminate this squish meta that has come about (Try running sub 20 K health NOW!) And make high DPS sacrificing all else mandatory. It only prolonged bossfights. So.

I personally dont care for the change, scaling is only going to do so much, and things like Selene feel unballanced as far as how hard they got. Not to mention that second to last boss on ICP, who now has a grand total of almost 20 million health.

That's just silly.

UrQuan · October 2016

Has anyone tried one of the updated part 2 dungeons on vet mode with a PUG or a group of people new to vet dungeons?

Because the group I did vet Wayrest 2 with last night was an experienced enough group that normally we would have burned through it sleepwalking, and the changes to it were completely fine for us (other than that one unexpected zombie wipe, but something like that can be easily avoided). Welcome, even.

I'm just concerned that the changes will make things significantly more difficult for PUGs and folks who are new to vet dungeons. But I could be worried over nothing, so I'm hoping anyone who has tried them with PUGs or less experienced players can pipe up with some feedback.

Doctordarkspawn · October 2016

UrQuan wrote: »

Has anyone tried one of the updated part 2 dungeons on vet mode with a PUG or a group of people new to vet dungeons?

Because the group I did vet Wayrest 2 with last night was an experienced enough group that normally we would have burned through it sleepwalking, and the changes to it were completely fine for us (other than that one unexpected zombie wipe, but something like that can be easily avoided). Welcome, even.

I'm just concerned that the changes will make things significantly more difficult for PUGs and folks who are new to vet dungeons. But I could be worried over nothing, so I'm hoping anyone who has tried them with PUGs or less experienced players can pipe up with some feedback.

I've tried them with a few pug groups, and the problem is exactly what you have described.

Most pug groups I found barely got through them, and even experienced players didn't get much better treatment, many geting oneshotted and such.

I expect widespread nerfs and their warrented. Difficulty has been foisted on people who never asked for it with no point that I can see. Trash mobs, geting more heallth for no reason. Bosses doing much more damage for little reason. It's nonsense.

(Edit: Dunno why it doubleposted the quote, cannot be arsed to change it tho.)

nordsavage · October 2016

Some bosses have more health and resistances are definitely up. Resource costs for combat have seemingly gone up while damage capability has most certainly gone down in some areas. A rule of thumb is if it is a trial or DLC dungeon do not pug it.

Khenarthi · October 2016

UrQuan wrote: »

Has anyone tried one of the updated part 2 dungeons on vet mode with a PUG or a group of people new to vet dungeons?

Because the group I did vet Wayrest 2 with last night was an experienced enough group that normally we would have burned through it sleepwalking, and the changes to it were completely fine for us (other than that one unexpected zombie wipe, but something like that can be easily avoided). Welcome, even.

I'm just concerned that the changes will make things significantly more difficult for PUGs and folks who are new to vet dungeons. But I could be worried over nothing, so I'm hoping anyone who has tried them with PUGs or less experienced players can pipe up with some feedback.

I did vet Wayrest II yesterday in a pug, both DD were about CP160 and absolutely new to group mechanics (hardly any aoe, lots of light attacking), and the healer was mostly just healing and spamming shiny orbs. Stuff took a really long time to kill but I (as their tank) chalked it up to the nature of pugs and new people coming to grips with a new playstyle. I was not running addons due to EU server shenanigans so no clue what the group dps was, but it was not as easy as usual.

Osteos · October 2016

I think its a good change overall. I haven't done any of the dlc dungeons though to see if the difficulty in those has changed.

Drummerx04 · October 2016

I definitely noticed a buff to many bosses in previous version 2 dungeons. I welcome the change and removal of total facerolling. I'll admit I'm pretty interested to see whether/how they've changed the DLC dungeons... although I didn't really enjoy vRoM before. I doubt I'll enjoy if everything has more health now, lol.

cpuScientist · October 2016

One quick thing though. There are no more silver keys. So even the II version that usually was vet, can be done on normal if your group is not yet able to complete the dungeon. You will still get a key. You now just get 2 if you do hardmode vet. That still amounts to 3 keys a day. While before we could ONLY get 1 silver and 1 gold. This is a welcomed change. Has something for everyone. More experienced players get a little bit more fun. More casual players get good rewards for doing the normal dungeon and can progress to the vet version eventually.

Doctordarkspawn · October 2016

cpuScientist wrote: »

One quick thing though. There are no more silver keys. So even the II version that usually was vet, can be done on normal if your group is not yet able to complete the dungeon. You will still get a key. You now just get 2 if you do hardmode vet. That still amounts to 3 keys a day. While before we could ONLY get 1 silver and 1 gold. This is a welcomed change. Has something for everyone. More experienced players get a little bit more fun. More casual players get good rewards for doing the normal dungeon and can progress to the vet version eventually.

Seconded.

Now if we could just knock a few hundreds off the vet trash mobs health and make Selene not do 44 K damage on an attack she's going to use every ten seconds all would be right with the world.

cpuScientist · October 2016

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Has anyone tried one of the updated part 2 dungeons on vet mode with a PUG or a group of people new to vet dungeons?

Because the group I did vet Wayrest 2 with last night was an experienced enough group that normally we would have burned through it sleepwalking, and the changes to it were completely fine for us (other than that one unexpected zombie wipe, but something like that can be easily avoided). Welcome, even.

I'm just concerned that the changes will make things significantly more difficult for PUGs and folks who are new to vet dungeons. But I could be worried over nothing, so I'm hoping anyone who has tried them with PUGs or less experienced players can pipe up with some feedback.

UrQuan wrote: »

Has anyone tried one of the updated part 2 dungeons on vet mode with a PUG or a group of people new to vet dungeons?

Because the group I did vet Wayrest 2 with last night was an experienced enough group that normally we would have burned through it sleepwalking, and the changes to it were completely fine for us (other than that one unexpected zombie wipe, but something like that can be easily avoided). Welcome, even.

I'm just concerned that the changes will make things significantly more difficult for PUGs and folks who are new to vet dungeons. But I could be worried over nothing, so I'm hoping anyone who has tried them with PUGs or less experienced players can pipe up with some feedback.

I've tried them with a few pug groups, and the problem is exactly what you have described.

Most pug groups I found barely got through them, and even experienced players didn't get much better treatment, many geting oneshotted and such.

I expect widespread nerfs and their warrented. Difficulty has been foisted on people who never asked for it with no point that I can see. Trash mobs, geting more heallth for no reason. Bosses doing much more damage for little reason. It's nonsense.

(Edit: Dunno why it doubleposted the quote, cannot be arsed to change it tho.)

You can still do the normal and get a key though. So whats the actual problem. It's a fantastic new system.

cpuScientist · October 2016

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Basicly the only thing that changed to me was that the bosses do mildly more damage now (Exept for one shot mechanics like Selenes bear rush that now do 40 K) and trash mobs have 400 K health each making them unnecessarily long to kill.

...Nobody likes to spend too much time on trash. We have to spend too much time on trash now.

The boss buff only really serves to basicly eliminate this squish meta that has come about (Try running sub 20 K health NOW!) And make high DPS sacrificing all else mandatory. It only prolonged bossfights. So.

I personally dont care for the change, scaling is only going to do so much, and things like Selene feel unballanced as far as how hard they got. Not to mention that second to last boss on ICP, who now has a grand total of almost 20 million health.

That's just silly.

Then do the normal it will still grant a key. If it is a hard dungeon and you are on a shaky group. That's fine do it on normal. Nothing is wrong with that...

Also no people will still run those with the least amount of health possible lol.

RinaldoGandolphi · October 2016

Bloodspawn may now be a real dps check..I haven't been in spindle yet could be interesting. I probably need to make some gear changes anyways but be curious to try it soon

UrQuan · October 2016

cpuScientist wrote: »

One quick thing though. There are no more silver keys. So even the II version that usually was vet, can be done on normal if your group is not yet able to complete the dungeon. You will still get a key. You now just get 2 if you do hardmode vet. That still amounts to 3 keys a day. While before we could ONLY get 1 silver and 1 gold. This is a welcomed change.

Oh I agree about that. Between that, splitting out the DLC dungeons to a separate pledge giver, and guaranteeing a helm if you do the vet mode version of a dungeon, those are very welcome changes.

cpuScientist wrote: »

Has something for everyone. More experienced players get a little bit more fun. More casual players get good rewards for doing the normal dungeon and can progress to the vet version eventually.

The part that I've got in bold is where my concern arises. Does this change make the gap between the non-vet dungeons and the vet dungeons (or at least the vet part 2 dungeons) too much? Does it make it too difficult for a more casual/less experienced player to make that transition to doing vet versions?

This is not a rhetorical question. I don't know if it's a problem or if I'm just imagining that it might be a problem.

Thornen · October 2016

lockator wrote: »

They also massively increased the HP of bosses in the old vets.

Eg. Bloodspawn went from 1.4m to 4m.
It means that Zos intentionally or unintentionally (stealth) buffed all the old vets. Now im not complaining, VCOA had become a joke.

But does mean that the old vets have become harder and the 'new' vets are a breeze until the last boss (bc ppl like me who started playing around TG were unaware that these bosses even had mechanics )

Yeh mainly noticed the bosses are now just huge sponges that take forever to die, not really any harder than it was before just takes longer.

Florial · October 2016

UrQuan wrote: »

Well, for the DLC vet dungeons I think it's a terrible idea to buff them. Sure, there's a small percent of the players who can do the vet DLC dungeons in their sleep and who might appreciate some extra difficulty, but for inexperienced players they were already almost impossible, and for most experienced players they were already considered difficult.

For the "base game" vet dungeons (not talking about the new vet versions of the existing non-vet dungeons) the buff is absolutely fine for experienced players, but it contributes to the big difficulty gap between the non-vet dungeons and the vet ones. For newer players or players who are just starting to do dungeons, when you feel comfortable doing the non-vet ones and you decide to switch to the vet versions, it's a huge leap in difficulty rather than a step up.

Agree. I was pulled into Selene's Web as an inexperienced vet group healer and it was a frustrating time for everyone. Left with some bad feelings and we never got it done. Everything up until that last boss was 100% manageable. But even our experienced group members died all the time to that bear so I didn't feel too terrible. It wasn't just my healing. This will be a big hurdle for me at least but I shall keep trying.

runagate · October 2016

I can't imagine how buffing trashs' health is in any way a positive change, newbie pugs or experienced hardcore raiders.

lockator · October 2016

Also it occurred to me that on PTS they accidently buffed vMA with HP increases, until someone spotted it and they said it wasnt intended and fixed it.

I'm going to guess the same thing happened with the old vet dungeons but wasnt corrected

Doctordarkspawn · October 2016

cpuScientist wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Basicly the only thing that changed to me was that the bosses do mildly more damage now (Exept for one shot mechanics like Selenes bear rush that now do 40 K) and trash mobs have 400 K health each making them unnecessarily long to kill.

...Nobody likes to spend too much time on trash. We have to spend too much time on trash now.

The boss buff only really serves to basicly eliminate this squish meta that has come about (Try running sub 20 K health NOW!) And make high DPS sacrificing all else mandatory. It only prolonged bossfights. So.

I personally dont care for the change, scaling is only going to do so much, and things like Selene feel unballanced as far as how hard they got. Not to mention that second to last boss on ICP, who now has a grand total of almost 20 million health.

That's just silly.

Then do the normal it will still grant a key. If it is a hard dungeon and you are on a shaky group. That's fine do it on normal. Nothing is wrong with that...

Also no people will still run those with the least amount of health possible lol.

The problem is that the mob health got increased for no reason, and it does not make the dungeon more difficult, it just makes it longer and more tedious.

The problem is that the damage increase in some bosses causes them to be more difficult than DLC bosses. When I cant block an attack and that makes a boss more dangerous than Velindreth, you have done something -wrong-.

And saying 'just do it on normal' does not make those problems go away.

Nobody asked for these changes and all they serve to do is draw the time in these dungeons out, they serve no purpose and defending them by saying 'just do normal' does not adress complaints and only makes you sound like a ticket-tape machine spouting the same pro-difficulty sentiments I've seen before, please refrain from posting the rhetoric again. I agree the new system is better. I disagree with measures that only prolongue the inevitiable for far too long, and just serve to waste my -time-.

A moot point, considering much of it is likely a Scaling issue that will likely be nerfed later, but I tire of people defending anything that makes the game harder. Even the things, that serve no purpose.

TLDR: Buffing the health on bosses, after the resistance buff? Questionable, but fine. Buffing the health on trash? No. Responding to complaints about this with 'do it on normal'? Makes you sound like a automated propaganda machine for pro-difficulty sentiments.