Making 'Red Diamond' more universal.

Pinja

So a thread that was erupted in 'debate' got purged while I was writing a reply so rather then waste this:

The imperial add-on to the game is just that, an add on to help enhance & diversify gameplay however else you play it. @tnanever pointed out that despite being a generally available race the Imperial 'Red diamond' passive is tailored towards only one half of the overall gameplay, melee Stamina, & as such shuts out the completely legitimate idea of an Imperial sorcerer. Deviating from his suggestion, without effecting any other aspect of an imperials gameplay, simply make the Red Diamond passive proc on all weapon attacks.
Ranged or Melee.

Current Passive:

Xvorg

Naw, sounds like a problem.

Just no.

If you want to max your toon, you need to have only one choice, but that choice shouldn't be the only playing style. Why there should be at least 2 maxed playing styles for the same race?

At least you're not a dunmer whose playing style was put on a niche once hybrids stopped being viable (DK), and then the poison dmg change on DK stamina lines made them all mDKs...

bebynnag

Naw, sounds like a problem.

the red diamond passive is usefull on magic builds

any melee magic attack procs the self heal

most of a mDK repertoire is melee magic

ps the upcoming destro ultimate is melee damage, as are some of the existing skills

Pinja

Xvorg wrote: »

If you want to max your toon, you need to have only one choice, but that choice shouldn't be the only playing style. Why there should be at least 2 maxed playing styles for the same race?

At least you're not a dunmer whose playing style was put on a niche once hybrids stopped being viable (DK), and then the poison dmg change on DK stamina lines made them all mDKs...

The reasoning I saw for this was if you split the 9 base races down you should have:
-3 magic DDs: Dunmer, Altimer, Breton.
-3 Stam DDs: Khajiit, Bosmer, Redguard.
-3 Mixed Tanks: Nord, Argonian, Orc
While some are more specialized & hybridized then others, in the name of even diversity of the races should be able to fit somewhere with a 33%, though the whole of it actually favors more stamina then magica.
As a 10th race, Imperial as it is now encourages players to pick up a melee weapon & thus go stamina. While Flame Whip & Jabs might (never tested it) count as melee hits I'm not sure how many other universal magic abilities do. Even then, is that the most ideal way to imagine an imperial spell caster.

Xvorg

Naw, sounds like a problem.

Pinja wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

If you want to max your toon, you need to have only one choice, but that choice shouldn't be the only playing style. Why there should be at least 2 maxed playing styles for the same race?

At least you're not a dunmer whose playing style was put on a niche once hybrids stopped being viable (DK), and then the poison dmg change on DK stamina lines made them all mDKs...

The reasoning I saw for this was if you split the 9 base races down you should have:
-3 magic DDs: Dunmer, Altimer, Breton.
-3 Stam DDs: Khajiit, Bosmer, Redguard.
-3 Mixed Tanks: Nord, Argonian, Orc
While some are more specialized & hybridized then others, in the name of even diversity the races should be able to fit somewhere with a 33%, though the whole of it actually favors more stamina then magica.
As a 10th race, Imperial as it is now encourages players to pick up a melee weapon & thus go stamina. While Flame Whip & Jabs might (never tested it) count as melee hits I'm not sure how many other universal magic abilities do. Even then, is that the most ideal way to imagine an imperial spell caster.

NBs have other 2 in the pool: CW and Death strike (both morphs). In fact, imperial NB is the only one who can get the 3 res per each attack done just using siphoning attacks.

With leching strikes, they get a very strong return in health just by using basic attacks.

Now an interesting build using basic attacks that get heal back could be degeneration, leeching strikes and killeris blade. Throw pelinals to increase wpn dmg each time you use degen. You can go 2h for the dmg increase and...

I think I'll have some fun the coming months... Thanks for the discussion, you have already given me an idea...

Pinja

Xvorg wrote: »

Pinja wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

If you want to max your toon, you need to have only one choice, but that choice shouldn't be the only playing style. Why there should be at least 2 maxed playing styles for the same race?

At least you're not a dunmer whose playing style was put on a niche once hybrids stopped being viable (DK), and then the poison dmg change on DK stamina lines made them all mDKs...

The reasoning I saw for this was if you split the 9 base races down you should have:
-3 magic DDs: Dunmer, Altimer, Breton.
-3 Stam DDs: Khajiit, Bosmer, Redguard.
-3 Mixed Tanks: Nord, Argonian, Orc
While some are more specialized & hybridized then others, in the name of even diversity the races should be able to fit somewhere with a 33%, though the whole of it actually favors more stamina then magica.
As a 10th race, Imperial as it is now encourages players to pick up a melee weapon & thus go stamina. While Flame Whip & Jabs might (never tested it) count as melee hits I'm not sure how many other universal magic abilities do. Even then, is that the most ideal way to imagine an imperial spell caster.

NBs have other 2 in the pool: CW and Death strike (both morphs). In fact, imperial NB is the only one who can get the 3 res per each attack done just using siphoning attacks.

With leching strikes, they get a very strong return in health just by using basic attacks.

Now an interesting build using basic attacks that get heal back could be degeneration, leeching strikes and killeris blade. Throw pelinals to increase wpn dmg each time you use degen. You can go 2h for the dmg increase and...

I think I'll have some fun the coming months... Thanks for the discussion, you have already given me an idea...

Imperial Sap tank? Let me know how it runs if you finish it. @Xvorg

GreenSoup2HoT

Cool, doesn't sound like a problem.

OP i love your idea and i think it's great... but Red Diamond is such crap that it's not even worth your time.

Red Diamond needs a serious rework. The only build in game that meshes well with this race is a Templar Sun Shield build... and this build really only cares for the Tough Passive.

I've played an Imperial Stamina Nightblade for more then over a year and its been great but when i look at those stat's of other stamina races its just insane. Woodelfs and Redguards can easily have 500 more stamina regeneration then myself. What to i get? A passive with an abysmal 10% rng proc that is cut by battle spirit and 12% more health. Even with 50k health it's only going to heal you for 1500 health when it proc's in pvp (3k in pve not to bad). Is it even worth it though? Sadly... it's not in my opinion.

Red Diamond need's a serious rework to even compare to Adrenaline Rush or the stealthy passive (talking about the third tier passive's).

The problem with giving Red Diamond an overhaul is because Sun Shield builds are actually really strong. Just everyone else who is an Imperial is falling way behind compared to other races. PVE Imperials are actually in a very good spot but PVP Red Diamond is just a waste of a passive. I personally have no idea how to remedy this problem with PVP Imperials (that are not Sun Shield Builds).

First thing i would do: Switch the passive to a flat value. Then let the passive either grant the proc on hit or when hit with a 100% chance and a cool-down. Then maybe this passive would be worth it but imho it's just a waste. I should probably Race Change instead of posting this comment.

Xvorg

Naw, sounds like a problem.

Pinja wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Pinja wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

If you want to max your toon, you need to have only one choice, but that choice shouldn't be the only playing style. Why there should be at least 2 maxed playing styles for the same race?

At least you're not a dunmer whose playing style was put on a niche once hybrids stopped being viable (DK), and then the poison dmg change on DK stamina lines made them all mDKs...

The reasoning I saw for this was if you split the 9 base races down you should have:
-3 magic DDs: Dunmer, Altimer, Breton.
-3 Stam DDs: Khajiit, Bosmer, Redguard.
-3 Mixed Tanks: Nord, Argonian, Orc
While some are more specialized & hybridized then others, in the name of even diversity the races should be able to fit somewhere with a 33%, though the whole of it actually favors more stamina then magica.
As a 10th race, Imperial as it is now encourages players to pick up a melee weapon & thus go stamina. While Flame Whip & Jabs might (never tested it) count as melee hits I'm not sure how many other universal magic abilities do. Even then, is that the most ideal way to imagine an imperial spell caster.

NBs have other 2 in the pool: CW and Death strike (both morphs). In fact, imperial NB is the only one who can get the 3 res per each attack done just using siphoning attacks.

With leching strikes, they get a very strong return in health just by using basic attacks.

Now an interesting build using basic attacks that get heal back could be degeneration, leeching strikes and killeris blade. Throw pelinals to increase wpn dmg each time you use degen. You can go 2h for the dmg increase and...

I think I'll have some fun the coming months... Thanks for the discussion, you have already given me an idea...

Imperial Sap tank? Let me know how it runs if you finish it. @Xvorg

Nope, it's more a light/heavy attack 2h stamblade for duels using the attronach constelation, whose stars are quite stronk (riposte, butcher and tactician)

I started it yesterday and looks promising

WalksonGraves

Cool, doesn't sound like a problem.

Red diamond is at max 10% CoH for 3k heal, so unless you run dual wield... ill stick with Argonian.

Alucardo

Naw, sounds like a problem.

While I have no problem giving it more variety, in past experiences if they add something, they will also take something away. I fear that if Red Diamond were to proc on ranged and melee, the passive itself will become weaker than it already is to balance it out. So no, please don't touch my Imperial.

DaveMoeDee

Naw, sounds like a problem.

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

OP i love your idea and i think it's great... but Red Diamond is such crap that it's not even worth your time.

Red Diamond needs a serious rework. The only build in game that meshes well with this race is a Templar Sun Shield build... and this build really only cares for the Tough Passive.

I've played an Imperial Stamina Nightblade for more then over a year and its been great but when i look at those stat's of other stamina races its just insane. Woodelfs and Redguards can easily have 500 more stamina regeneration then myself. What to i get? A passive with an abysmal 10% rng proc that is cut by battle spirit and 12% more health. Even with 50k health it's only going to heal you for 1500 health when it proc's in pvp (3k in pve not to bad). Is it even worth it though? Sadly... it's not in my opinion.

Red Diamond need's a serious rework to even compare to Adrenaline Rush or the stealthy passive (talking about the third tier passive's).

The problem with giving Red Diamond an overhaul is because Sun Shield builds are actually really strong. Just everyone else who is an Imperial is falling way behind compared to other races. PVE Imperials are actually in a very good spot but PVP Red Diamond is just a waste of a passive. I personally have no idea how to remedy this problem with PVP Imperials (that are not Sun Shield Builds).

First thing i would do: Switch the passive to a flat value. Then let the passive either grant the proc on hit or when hit with a 100% chance and a cool-down. Then maybe this passive would be worth it but imho it's just a waste. I should probably Race Change instead of posting this comment.

Remember when everyone wanted to nerf Imperials?

Vrathak

Naw, sounds like a problem.

Nope nope nope and nope. This goes against Elder scrolls Lore. Imperials were never recognized for their magic ability. Don't mess up with the Lore just because it's an MMORPG

WalksonGraves

Cool, doesn't sound like a problem.

Vrathak wrote: »

Nope nope nope and nope. This goes against Elder scrolls Lore. Imperials were never recognized for their magic ability. Don't mess up with the Lore just because it's an MMORPG

Where in the lore were they sword vampires?

Xvorg

Naw, sounds like a problem.

WalksonGraves wrote: »

Vrathak wrote: »

Nope nope nope and nope. This goes against Elder scrolls Lore. Imperials were never recognized for their magic ability. Don't mess up with the Lore just because it's an MMORPG

Where in the lore were they sword vampires?

actually Star of the west absorbed stamina... but you know... Molag Bal, father of al Vamps could have changed that during the planemeld

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO

Pinja wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

If you want to max your toon, you need to have only one choice, but that choice shouldn't be the only playing style. Why there should be at least 2 maxed playing styles for the same race?

At least you're not a dunmer whose playing style was put on a niche once hybrids stopped being viable (DK), and then the poison dmg change on DK stamina lines made them all mDKs...

The reasoning I saw for this was if you split the 9 base races down you should have:
-3 magic DDs: Dunmer, Altimer, Breton.
-3 Stam DDs: Khajiit, Bosmer, Redguard.
-3 Mixed Tanks: Nord, Argonian, Orc
While some are more specialized & hybridized then others, in the name of even diversity of the races should be able to fit somewhere with a 33%, though the whole of it actually favors more stamina then magica.
As a 10th race, Imperial as it is now encourages players to pick up a melee weapon & thus go stamina. While Flame Whip & Jabs might (never tested it) count as melee hits I'm not sure how many other universal magic abilities do. Even then, is that the most ideal way to imagine an imperial spell caster.

jsut not true, its a passive for tanking and just as good if your magica or stamina tank.

Pinja

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »

Pinja wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

If you want to max your toon, you need to have only one choice, but that choice shouldn't be the only playing style. Why there should be at least 2 maxed playing styles for the same race?

At least you're not a dunmer whose playing style was put on a niche once hybrids stopped being viable (DK), and then the poison dmg change on DK stamina lines made them all mDKs...

The reasoning I saw for this was if you split the 9 base races down you should have:
-3 magic DDs: Dunmer, Altimer, Breton.
-3 Stam DDs: Khajiit, Bosmer, Redguard.
-3 Mixed Tanks: Nord, Argonian, Orc
While some are more specialized & hybridized then others, in the name of even diversity of the races should be able to fit somewhere with a 33%, though the whole of it actually favors more stamina then magica.
As a 10th race, Imperial as it is now encourages players to pick up a melee weapon & thus go stamina. While Flame Whip & Jabs might (never tested it) count as melee hits I'm not sure how many other universal magic abilities do. Even then, is that the most ideal way to imagine an imperial spell caster.

jsut not true, its a passive for tanking and just as good if your magica or stamina tank.

Quite a few tanks off hand resto it can cut out opportunity for them.

GreenSoup2HoT

Cool, doesn't sound like a problem.

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

OP i love your idea and i think it's great... but Red Diamond is such crap that it's not even worth your time.

Red Diamond needs a serious rework. The only build in game that meshes well with this race is a Templar Sun Shield build... and this build really only cares for the Tough Passive.

I've played an Imperial Stamina Nightblade for more then over a year and its been great but when i look at those stat's of other stamina races its just insane. Woodelfs and Redguards can easily have 500 more stamina regeneration then myself. What to i get? A passive with an abysmal 10% rng proc that is cut by battle spirit and 12% more health. Even with 50k health it's only going to heal you for 1500 health when it proc's in pvp (3k in pve not to bad). Is it even worth it though? Sadly... it's not in my opinion.

Red Diamond need's a serious rework to even compare to Adrenaline Rush or the stealthy passive (talking about the third tier passive's).

The problem with giving Red Diamond an overhaul is because Sun Shield builds are actually really strong. Just everyone else who is an Imperial is falling way behind compared to other races. PVE Imperials are actually in a very good spot but PVP Red Diamond is just a waste of a passive. I personally have no idea how to remedy this problem with PVP Imperials (that are not Sun Shield Builds).

First thing i would do: Switch the passive to a flat value. Then let the passive either grant the proc on hit or when hit with a 100% chance and a cool-down. Then maybe this passive would be worth it but imho it's just a waste. I should probably Race Change instead of posting this comment.

Remember when everyone wanted to nerf Imperials?

Lmao yes. I'm just waiting for that Red Diamond rework. I really hope one day we get one.

Essiaga

Naw, sounds like a problem.

Pinja wrote: »

So a thread that was erupted in 'debate' got purged while I was writing a reply so rather then waste this:

The imperial add-on to the game is just that, an add on to help enhance & diversify gameplay however else you play it. @tnanever pointed out that despite being a generally available race the Imperial 'Red diamond' passive is tailored towards only one half of the overall gameplay, melee Stamina, & as such shuts out the completely legitimate idea of an Imperial sorcerer. Deviating from his suggestion, without effecting any other aspect of an imperials gameplay, simply make the Red Diamond passive proc on all weapon attacks.
Ranged or Melee.

Current Passive:

Do you want RG's Adrenaline Rush and Orc's Swift Warrior altered as well? They're both melee only as well.

Melee has the disadvantage of being up close and personal, taking in all the AOEs, etc. Range has the luxury of staying out of the fray. I think it's fine as it is.

Alucardo

Naw, sounds like a problem.

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Lmao yes. I'm just waiting for that Red Diamond rework. I really hope one day we get one.

I was wondering what it actually heals for. Heals me for 1901 in Cyro. Do you know if this is affected by battle spirit buff? 3802 heals in PVE could be quite nice actually, but it might be same.. I have no idea.

Xvorg

Naw, sounds like a problem.

Alucardo wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Lmao yes. I'm just waiting for that Red Diamond rework. I really hope one day we get one.

I was wondering what it actually heals for. Heals me for 1901 in Cyro. Do you know if this is affected by battle spirit buff? 3802 heals in PVE could be quite nice actually, but it might be same.. I have no idea.

I think it is based on the dmg going or the max health. In both cases Bull..Spirit shouldb't affect it.

GreenSoup2HoT

Cool, doesn't sound like a problem.

Xvorg wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Lmao yes. I'm just waiting for that Red Diamond rework. I really hope one day we get one.

I was wondering what it actually heals for. Heals me for 1901 in Cyro. Do you know if this is affected by battle spirit buff? 3802 heals in PVE could be quite nice actually, but it might be same.. I have no idea.

I think it is based on the dmg going or the max health. In both cases Bull..Spirit shouldb't affect it.

Its 6% of your max health. Im pretty sure it does get cut in half by battle spirit.

dodgehopper_ESO

I can see where you're going with this, but I'd personally rather see them normalize attributes a bit. For starters, all the attribute bonuses should be a static amount based upon character/cp level and not on a percentage. The percentile bonuses mean that when they've changed attributes they've fundamentally ruined a number of characters. I have to admit from a theme standpoint, the Red Diamond passive feels a lot more like the Colovian or Jerall Highlanders than the Nibenese breed of Cyrod. I think if they made the one change I suggested most players would be happy. I also suspect certain races could use a little love in this regard. Khajiit for instance have very little to offer a mage build. Argonians are oddly designed to be tanks and healers, when they should have been guerrilla warfare specialists. If anyone should have had a run speed boost, stealth, and a stamina bonus it should have been Argonians. At any regard I don't hate the game I just think a few mistakes were made, which is normal.

As an aside, Red Diamond is just a fluff passive. Even as a melee character I find it best not to rely upon it. I get far more mileage out of the max health bonus than the red diamond passive.

dodgehopper_ESO

Vrathak wrote: »

Nope nope nope and nope. This goes against Elder scrolls Lore. Imperials were never recognized for their magic ability. Don't mess up with the Lore just because it's an MMORPG

Thematically they were known for their Luck, and did actually make respectable mages (or anything really) because of it.

Alucardo

Naw, sounds like a problem.

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Vrathak wrote: »

Nope nope nope and nope. This goes against Elder scrolls Lore. Imperials were never recognized for their magic ability. Don't mess up with the Lore just because it's an MMORPG

Thematically they were known for their Luck, and did actually make respectable mages (or anything really) because of it.

If they're known for luck I want better RNG chances

dodgehopper_ESO

Alucardo wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Vrathak wrote: »

Nope nope nope and nope. This goes against Elder scrolls Lore. Imperials were never recognized for their magic ability. Don't mess up with the Lore just because it's an MMORPG

Thematically they were known for their Luck, and did actually make respectable mages (or anything really) because of it.

If they're known for luck I want better RNG chances

When this game first came out, I was actually expecting Imperials to have some kind of crit-based bonuses or some kind of 'Luck' attribute. I came to realize though that the rounded attributes and the red diamond passive were meant to overall represent this. Had overcharging not been done away with, Imperials would still be a reasonable choice for a mage specced build. I'm still hopeful they'll take my suggestion of static attributes under advisement.

GreenSoup2HoT

Cool, doesn't sound like a problem.

In general it would be nice if Red Diamond worked like Adrenaline Rush. I hate the rng side of this passive.

dodgehopper_ESO

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

In general it would be nice if Red Diamond worked like Adrenaline Rush. I hate the rng side of this passive.

This is the part I dislike as well.

Xvorg

Naw, sounds like a problem.

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

In general it would be nice if Red Diamond worked like Adrenaline Rush. I hate the rng side of this passive.

This is the part I dislike as well.

We all dislike the RGN... that's for boardgames....