Crafting Nodes

CrazySonoran

STEVIL wrote: »

first bold - why? Why do all of us need constant access to tier 2-9 mats?

More specifically, once all characters in casual play keep finding mats at their level and the flow of mats into the game keeps getting keyed to characters in play, who do all of us need constant access to the nine other mats tiers other than the ones we can wear?

Why would someone leave a game because they cant get mats they dont need?

Why wouldnt letting these maxed crafters use those mats they harvest freely to craft any levrl gear meet their needs?

That said, the idea of mines/farms spread around but leaving routine nodes scaling as planned... not a problem.

There are a LOT of reasons why any individual might need access to tier 2-9 mats. Read the posts again from the beginning we listed a few of them, but not all. Just because "YOU" don't doesn't mean others wont.

People will be leveling and needing gear of all levels as long as people keep rolling alts.

People leave games for many reasons, even things more minor than this, and I have even left a game because my characters were made stronger, if you cant see that then open your eyes for once.

If all of my lower level mats were converted to tier 10 then maybe the idea of using higher tier to crafter lower might work but there is not way in Oblivion I am going to "spend" rubedite to make an ebon sword. Even if every node I find is rubedite. CP160 gear is so expensive it is a stupid idea.

STEVIL

CrazySonoran wrote: »

show previous quotes

STEVIL wrote: »

first bold - why? Why do all of us need constant access to tier 2-9 mats?

More specifically, once all characters in casual play keep finding mats at their level and the flow of mats into the game keeps getting keyed to characters in play, who do all of us need constant access to the nine other mats tiers other than the ones we can wear?

Why would someone leave a game because they cant get mats they dont need?

Why wouldnt letting these maxed crafters use those mats they harvest freely to craft any levrl gear meet their needs?

That said, the idea of mines/farms spread around but leaving routine nodes scaling as planned... not a problem.

There are a LOT of reasons why any individual might need access to tier 2-9 mats. Read the posts again from the beginning we listed a few of them, but not all. Just because "YOU" don't doesn't mean others wont.

People will be leveling and needing gear of all levels as long as people keep rolling alts.

People leave games for many reasons, even things more minor than this, and I have even left a game because my characters were made stronger, if you cant see that then open your eyes for once.

If all of my lower level mats were converted to tier 10 then maybe the idea of using higher tier to crafter lower might work but there is not way in Oblivion I am going to "spend" rubedite to make an ebon sword. Even if every node I find is rubedite. CP160 gear is so expensive it is a stupid idea.

Man a lot of furor there just for a few questions.

So if i have this right you have now reversed your claim that all of us need the ability to go get 2-9 mats. Great. Thats what i asked about, why all of us did.

And you are right that folks will need mats at levels appropriate to their levelling, thats why i am so very glad all characters everywhere will be gathering those from drops, from nodes, from gear from chests, drops, quests etc being deconned. That flow of mats into the world keyed to need will do wonders... even at the 50% skill.

I mean recently i started levelling 4 new alts and running their new gear off stuff they harvested at their level (shifting to crafting new at the top of a tier) was great. With casual gathering they had mats to make their gear by the end of tier crafting time. Did not have to buy any... and thats before we get to be seeing scaled set pieces dropped, from quests, from chests, from delves bosses the way they will be soon. That would have made outfitting even easier as you progress.

The only thing i still dont get quite as clearly is your issue with harvesting ruby and using ruby to craft ebon being so bad. I mean, if that top tier crafter does the harvesting, i think its less effectivebto travel to a zone to specifically harvest differentblevels of mats than to just have everything i harvest whereever i am be usable for any tier. The time lost in travel cpuld instead be used to grab more nodes.

But hey like i said, i got no issues if folks convince zos to do the mine/farm sites so they can choose to run to stonefalls farms for kresh instead of just harvesting ruby. Folks can choose how they spend time after all.

And you are right, sometimes people leave games for offbeat reasons, in the eyes of others. Obviously most game designers dont try to deal with offbeat gripes if they have more widespread ones. Its always tradeoffs.

But still, progress made... we both agree that the all of us thing was inaccurate.

CrazySonoran

My replies in bold within the quote...

STEVIL wrote: »

Man a lot of furor there just for a few questions.

I don't see that, I never intended it to be "furor" as you say.

So if i have this right you have now reversed your claim that all of us need the ability to go get 2-9 mats. Great. Thats what i asked about, why all of us did.

Reversed what????? No wonder you keep missing my point, this proves it, I NEVER reversed my claim, I have always been saying we all, as in every player in the game, should have a way to reliably acquire the materials they need regardless of tier, or alliance they started in, or if they have DLC's, have one character or 5 full accounts,all capped or not, or are an ESO+ member or not. Simple truth is if this system of basing node type only on character level and the crafting passive tier goes live it will TOTALLY screw over a lot of people and make it really hard to get Tier 2-9 materials. Some players, like yourself, it wont effect much at all, and some like me will be effected moderately, but it shouldn't effect any of us at all.

And you are right that folks will need mats at levels appropriate to their levelling, Not just their leveling but also for any others/friends/strangers/guild store customers they may want to craft for thats why i am so very glad all characters everywhere will be gathering those from drops, from nodes, from gear from chests, drops, quests etc being deconned. That flow of mats into the world keyed to need will do wonders... even at the 50% skill. This assumes that the crafter themselves will be level a new alt, those who cant or don't want to will be left out and the way you make it sound there will be a huge ramp up in the amount of these activities, which will not happen, people will keep doing what they are doing the same way they have been doing it for the last couple years.

I mean recently i started levelling 4 new alts and running their new gear off stuff they harvested at their level (shifting to crafting new at the top of a tier) was great. With casual gathering they had mats to make their gear by the end of tier crafting time. Did not have to buy any... and thats before we get to be seeing scaled set pieces dropped, from quests, from chests, from delves bosses the way they will be soon. That would have made outfitting even easier as you progress. YAY!!! I think thats a great idea on how YOU can handle the change relating to YOUR account and situation. But, SUPRISE!!!! This game isn't all about YOU.. it is TOTALLY and 100% about "US", as in all of the players. I personally will be doing something similar but leaning more on hirelings since I have 4 max crafters already and 7 other characters I can level a little in crafting, but I would rather adventure with them, not grind crafting because of a silly change to the node distribution system.

The only thing i still dont get quite as clearly is your issue with harvesting ruby and using ruby to craft ebon being so bad. I mean, if that top tier crafter does the harvesting, i think its less effectivebto travel to a zone to specifically harvest differentblevels of mats than to just have everything i harvest whereever i am be usable for any tier. The time lost in travel cpuld instead be used to grab more nodes. Consider it take 10 times as much Rubedite to make a CP160 sword than it does a CP150 sword. This makes the Tier 10 materials special in that you need a lot more of them to make your end-game gear which makes it silly to use them to make any of the lower tier items. But since they are taking away levels in a way, why don't they just convert all ore to one type, all cloth to one, and while they are at it might as well get rid of skill leveling from rank 1-4 as well, then we can just jump right in at the start and instantly be able to use all.. well I think you know where that is going. I don't like that idea basically just for the principle of it, we do need some progression and a learning curve for new players still.

But hey like i said, i got no issues if folks convince zos to do the mine/farm sites so they can choose to run to stonefalls farms for kresh instead of just harvesting ruby. Folks can choose how they spend time after all.

And you are right, sometimes people leave games for offbeat reasons, in the eyes of others. Obviously most game designers dont try to deal with offbeat gripes if they have more widespread ones. Its always tradeoffs.

But still, progress made... we both agree that the all of us thing was inaccurate.

I think you mean well, Stevil, but think of the entire game population and how it effects every player and their playstyle. People have never liked being forced to do something extra, or abnormal, just do do something that should be simple, they will stop playing first and go to a game that doesn't do that.

I have played Everquest 2, Lord of the Rings Online, and EvE. I have seen them all do things like ZOS is about to do and they end up alienating a big chunk of their players over little changes they think are good but really are not. Everquest 2 just became WAY over complicated and too much of a grind, boredom set in fast. Lord of the Rings was changed so there was no challenge, I could kill mobs way over my level in 2-3 seconds and never get touched, not good. In EvE inflation is way out of control yet all of the reports the developers do they say there is no inflation, guess that's why a lot of items in the game are 5-10 times the cost they used to be. In all 3 of these games changes were made where the developers were so proud of the changes but people left because in reality the change was not good.

ZOS is now changing a lot of items to BOP, raiders/trials players are getting mad, crafting nodes are getting messed with, crafters are getting mad, and I am sure there are some people that will hate some of the changes to PvP and will get mad. Unfortunately, there really is no way for changes to be made with out someone not liking it, so gaming developers need to make sure the changes they make are the ones that make the least number of people mad.

I still think the idea I had was still the best way to handle it. Think of it this way. Each alliance has 6-7 zones. 1 or 2 starter then 5 normal zones that are progressively higher level. We have 10 tiers of materials for crafting, so I'll use a DC character for an example...

Tier 1 - Stros M'kai, Betnikh, Glenumbra
Tier 2 - Stormhaven
Tier 3 - Rivenspire
Tier 4 - Alik'r
Tier 5 - Bangkorai, Coldharbour
Tier 6 - Kenarthi's Roost, Auridon
Tier 7 - Grahtwood
Tier 8 - Greenshade
Tier 9 - Malabal Tor
Tier 10 - Reapers March and all of the zones which are considered part of Cadwell's Gold, in addition to Craglorn, Cyrodiil, and the DLC zones all tier 10.

This system should keep everyone happy, no need to even do the 50/50 split, only have the nodes based on the zone, regardless of player skill, exactly as it has been between launch and when they ruined the distribution of the higher tier nodes in the silver and gold zones recently. Plenty of zones outside DLC's for those players to get all the stuff they need, plus one zone for each of the lower tiers for those who need them. Technically they could be distributed in any fashion as long as every tier of node is represented somewhere. The distribution I listed above is the simplest tho, and can be used for all of the crafts including Enchanting which has already been ruined. I have been having a hard time finding any T2-9 runes I wanted to stock up on since I am low on them, but I cant find any anywhere and I am not about to go through the horrendous grind levelling another enchanter to be able to find one of the tier 7 runes I need, that would take forever and destroy the stocks I have of the T1-6 runes I have just to do so.

I know ZOS needs to do something as far as nodes go with 1T coming, but to change the system so drastically and alienate so many players seems silly to me. Minor tweaks like I stated above would work great, even if they needed to tweak it a little. Hopefully they will listen and consider the consequences of the change before it goes live or at least shortly therafter.

STEVIL

@CrazySonoran

You now say

"Reversed what????? No wonder you keep missing my point, this proves it, I NEVER reversed my claim, I have always been saying we all, as in every player in the game, should have a way to reliably acquire the materials they need regardless of tier, or alliance they started in, or if they have DLC's, have one character or 5 full accounts,all capped or not, or are an ESO+ member or not. Simple truth is if this system of basing node type only on character level and the crafting passive tier goes live it will TOTALLY screw over a lot of people and make it really hard to get Tier 2-9 materials. Some players, like yourself, it wont effect much at all, and some like me will be effected moderately, but it shouldn't effect any of us at all. "

But your statement prior that i explicitly referenced in my initial response and the comment o reversal that...

"We, as in all of us, NEED a way to get tier 2-9 mats without having to jump through hoops, PERIOD!!! "

To be very simple needing something and having access to something are two different things, very significantly different.

if you position now is all characters should have access as opposed to all of us NEED a way, then i am fine with your backing off the need claim. that was what i questioned.

You said...
"I don't see that, I never intended it to be "furor" as you say."

Not sure what you intedned but the following seemed to be rather oddly heated for the questions asked to me.

"Just because "YOU" don't..."

"if you cant see that then open your eyes for once."


But to the meat oif it this is incomprehensible to me.

"Consider it take 10 times as much Rubedite to make a CP160 sword than it does a CP150 sword. This makes the Tier 10 materials special in that you need a lot more of them to make your end-game gear which makes it silly to use them to make any of the lower tier items. But since they are taking away levels in a way, why don't they just convert all ore to one type, all cloth to one, and while they are at it might as well get rid of skill leveling from rank 1-4 as well, then we can just jump right in at the start and instantly be able to use all.. well I think you know where that is going. I don't like that idea basically just for the principle of it, we do need some progression and a learning curve for new players still."

You fuse together two different complaints into oner paragraph and then wrap it up into some principle that you dont explain so... i will take a stab here but may miss a mark.

You are arguing that your level 10 crafter max guy should be able to go spend time harvesting lower tier mats and should not have all mats be tier-10 for his harvesting.
You are also arguing that tier-10 mats are so valuable nobody should ever spend them on making lower tier mats if that is available as an option.

My counter point to that is if it is trtue that you shouldn't use tier-10 mats on lower level gear becasue teir-10 demand is so high, then why in the world is it any smarter to go spend harvest time gathering tier 9 or lower if you could be spending tier-10?

See???

Either way the mats you harvested during X time (when you could have been harvesting tier-10) were used for lower level gear. Does it really matter if you spent 5 mins harvesting lorhal tears or stardew if they end up making the same "panaceas" (or whatever stardew makes?) Does it matter whether you spent 15mins harvesting ancestor silks or kresh if they both get used to make cp10-30 robes?

To me, if the levels of mats are dispersed so you can harvest your "special cases" only in certain places but the top-tier anywhere, it makes a lot more sense to not waste time chasing specials and just spend more time gathering the top-tier and using them for my crafting needs of any level.

The second part is about taking away levels of crafting and just getting rid of all of them and having all at once at start with "might as well get rid of skill leveling from rank 1-4 as well, then we can just jump right in at the start and instantly be able to use all" and this is incomprehensible.

i am doing nothing more than saying your skill levelling shoukd keep you able to do anything you are qualified to or less and that every node you harvest should be useful at all times without having to go hunt for odd cases. I am looking at the better you get in skill and character, the more options you have.

thats the exact opposite from saying at the start you got everything and no advancement.

YOU brought up rolling it down to at the start and then cited the principle of "should have progression"... i suggested we keep the progression but as you go up the upper tier gets more and more flexible--- so it is still the case with my "get rid of mat lower cap" that new players and all non-maxed player keep having a reason to progress.

That was baffling.

then there was this you said

"I think you mean well, Stevil, but think of the entire game population and how it effects every player and their playstyle. People have never liked being forced to do something extra, or abnormal, just do do something that should be simple, they will stop playing first and go to a game that doesn't do that."

I am absolutely thinking of the entire game population.

This game is losing its zone-locked progression entirely with OneT. A lvl 9 character can be running reaper's march content right along side a lvl50 cp 130 and a lvl 50 cp 600.

if the nodes/drops were zone locked as you suggest and if they were all DC, then only one character in that bunch would be harvesting from all those nodes, all those casual drops mats that are useful for their character (either skill or character level.)

if the nodes/drops scale with each character's skill/char level, the every character harvests from all those nodes, all those drops mats useful for their character.

Every character everywhere regardless of where finds nodes/drops applicable to their character needs.

that is the think of others big picture view.

The bulk of the players everywhere wont have need to go to specific zones to get specific mats.
They can just play thru whatever content they want and find nodes/drops they can use... with "being forced to do something extra, or abnormal" like go to other zones to find the stuff they need to keep going.

player who like the daggerfall content, can stay in that zone and do the repeatable content and always have nodes/drops suit their needs as they advance. they wont have to abandon their home because you know in a world built to your specifications you are hard coding inot the world the literal truth that "the grass is always greener on the other side" because as you outline above it is always true that the better mats are outside your home faction territory. (unless you includes both scaled nodes and non-scaled in each zone but it didn't read that way in your recent list.)

IMO for the whole game, who,e world supply of good, and the vast majority of all players and characters the scaled nodes/drops everywhere is the best "thinking of others" approach. thats not the "thinking of me" viewpoint.

Now, to lessen the impact on those who want the ability to craft lower tier stuff, even though the mats for that will be available to the lower characters to provide more readily, i am ALL FOR suggestions such as also having:
Allow crafters to craft lower tier gear from higher tier mats.
Put special lower tier farms/mines in pre-set areas.
have lower tier mats show up in writs as a bonus.
Have NPC vendors sell lower tier mats.

Why do i support scaled nodes/drops everywhere and also all of those as opposed to zone locked nodes? because all of those provide MORE flexibility, more opportunity, more... while zone locked nodes means many characters will either have to restrict their play to a few zones determined by their current gear cap OR run content where nodes/drops dont "fit" for them at all. That zone locked reduces many players options or sets up that they get useless mats from all those nodes/drops.

letting all players play in most any zone in any order at any time has to go hand in hand with making all the resources that flow out of a zone equally useful to them at least at the most basic "gear cap" level.

heck, it looks like they even tried to make most zones set drops trios per zone have a stamina flavored, a magica flavored and a health-heavy.

Anyway, clearly we wont agree and yes clearly some folks like those with highly restricted max everything craft character sets might have to do somethings differently... just like some people have to change things with every significant patch. but that happens in an MMO.

In my view the biggest overall impact will be more character having more mats flowing into their possession from casual play that fit their needs whether it be from devoted harvesting or casual harvesting or drops. that replacing the numbers of player for whom the current zones scaling blows up at level 50+ should mean less demand for outside provided mats.

Some dont want that. i get that. much harder to harvest gold off someone for hresh if they find it in every casual nodes they find or even half them and half all their cloth drops are kresh decons.

CrazySonoran

Stevil,

You continue to keep focusing on ways I can gear up my alts and alternative ways to get the Tier 2-9 materials, which a lot of what you said will work for that, but keep missing the boat on the rest of what a few of us have said about needing access to tier 2-9 for other reasons. You did say, "Put special lower tier farms/mines in pre-set areas." which is actually kinda funny. I agree with that statement but call those pre-set areas Glenumbra, Stros M'Kai, etc. Zone specific nodes is how the game has been for a couple years now, and it would continue to work after One Tamriel if they did it right. Having to do writs, hire hirelings, and the other ideas presented in this post are not reliable and cant be done as needed.

Go ahead and continue to argue your points, I am done here and will probably ignore any post you make. But I have learned one thing here, that is how to word a bug report/suggestion on the PTS server so we can hope ZOS sees that something needs to be done. People will leave the game, I am considering it myself, at least EvE isnt excluding me from content just because I have a 9 year old character like ZOS will do to my 2+ year old character excluding him from harvesting High Iron.

STEVIL

CrazySonoran wrote: »

Stevil,

You continue to keep focusing on ways I can gear up my alts and alternative ways to get the Tier 2-9 materials, which a lot of what you said will work for that, but keep missing the boat on the rest of what a few of us have said about needing access to tier 2-9 for other reasons. You did say, "Put special lower tier farms/mines in pre-set areas." which is actually kinda funny. I agree with that statement but call those pre-set areas Glenumbra, Stros M'Kai, etc. Zone specific nodes is how the game has been for a couple years now, and it would continue to work after One Tamriel if they did it right. Having to do writs, hire hirelings, and the other ideas presented in this post are not reliable and cant be done as needed.

Go ahead and continue to argue your points, I am done here and will probably ignore any post you make. But I have learned one thing here, that is how to word a bug report/suggestion on the PTS server so we can hope ZOS sees that something needs to be done. People will leave the game, I am considering it myself, at least EvE isnt excluding me from content just because I have a 9 year old character like ZOS will do to my 2+ year old character excluding him from harvesting High Iron.

of course the diff between your suggestion of the zones and myvexsmpke of the farms/mines is in my option alk the other characters running content in glenumbra other than at that mine/farm find scaled nodes/drops for mats.

My point is you can give master crafters access to the locked nodes thry imagine they need without locking down the nodes the others come acrood casually.

You mention it hsvingvworked for two years and working fine after onet but thats untrue.

When the character play path and levelling followed the same sequence as the geography locked nodes on day one, it eorked mostly. The nodes/drops you came acroos matched your need, unless you strayed from the path or overleveled.

When gold/silver hit it got worse because one or two levels over content meant a long time with wrong nodes during play.

When cp replaced vet it broke.many characters hitvsilver with its kresh for one whole zone they were jumping ovet to cp80 or cp120 or cp50 and a lot of content play thru was in wrong node/drop.

This of course created lots of demand for mats one couldnt find ehile running content.

In onet once any zone can be run at sny levrl, the zone locked node go to total fail.

So, giving all nodes scaling serves the vadt majority of players. If they also add mines/farms or rrmove lower cap great.

But to want locked zone nodes/drops is to want average players not finding whst they need in casual play and snyone that quits because everybody finding more mats useful to them and the prices drop... have a nice trip. They are putting their greed over the vast majority of players.

Either wsy, its basically done deal at this point. Only thing left is to see if zos heard the remove lower cap or mines/farms requests over the din of keep all zones locked shortage mongers.

Asardes

BTW. Has anyone tested what tier of gear mobs drop in One Tamriel? It's still a mix of CP150-160 and CP140 gear? Because I get many CP90-140 deconstructing that trash gear.

STEVIL

Asardes wrote: »

BTW. Has anyone tested what tier of gear mobs drop in One Tamriel? It's still a mix of CP150-160 and CP140 gear? Because I get many CP90-140 deconstructing that trash gear.

When i tested, gear pieces dropped at your character level b dropped like but scraps dropped like nadoes at character level or skill rank. But the was first patch.

Asardes

I'm asking because dungeons right now seem to use the same scaling that will be implemented in One Tamriel:
- leather scraps are split between your level and the level of your craft - I only get rubedo leather scraps since my main is max level in clothier
- the mobs still drop a mix of CP150-160 rubedite/rubedo leather/ancestor silk/ruby ash and CP140 voidsteel/shaddowhide/shadowspun/nightwood trash gear - from the latter I get enough material to offset the loss in daily crafting writs for blacksmithing and clothier, but not for woodworker since wood items are a little less common.

My take on crafting is to actually keep the bulk of the gear writs at tier 9/10 since the materials are cheaper and more plentiful - deconstructing CP140 gear nets you 3-7 base material, but CP150-160 only one. I have actually large stocks, upwards of 5K voidsteel, 4K void cloth and 2K shaddow hide. The difference is between doing them like that for a few months, or doing them like that indefinitely, because of the input from deconstruction. I surely don't like wasting rubedite or ancestor silk for RNG gold tempers.

carljokl

I did think that mines with clusters of nodes would be a nice feature. I know there are blacksmithing surveys but I can't control getting these. There are plenty of mines dotted around the game. Some have a few nodes in them but not a noteworthy amount.

I thought it was kind of funny doing the quest in Ghratwood where an Orc bandit leader sends his forge specialist with you so she can help survey a mine for establishing their tribe. One basic level 1 iron node is found. This is in a zone where the zoned material is at least high iron. She excitedly states that with this ore they will be able to produce the finest weapons/gear. I am thinking, every other node in the zone produces better ore than this but if she says so. Still it is just a quest story. It is a quest object anyway and not a node that can be harvested.