The Dodge Roll Eternal Hunt Well fitted folks might be going extinct very soon...
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Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »The DPS is not the issue here. The terrible mechanics are. It is beyond dumb that using a damage skill makes you immune to CC and breaks the normal rules of the game.
It's an ultimate. Ultimates break the normal rules of the game. For example, take rite of passage. That too is a channel that is uninterruptable and makes the caster immune to CC for the duration.
You picked the exception and are trying to claim it's the rule
Most ultimates do not break the normal rules of the game. Banner, DK Leap, Magma Shell, Nova, Radial Sweep, Negate, Storm Atronach, Overload, Soul Harvest, Soul Tether, Veil of Blades, and Dawnbreaker all conform to the normal rules of the game.
Neither of those is a channel. I did not pick an exception, i picked another ultimate that is also a channel. When debating whether a channeled ultimate giving CC immunity is normal or not, it makes sense to compare it to another ultimate that is also channeled, not to those which aren't.
And as you pointed out, there also is another ultimate that breaks "normal rules". SA will be the 3rd. And the 1h/s ultimate will be another one. Blocking mitigation without holding block? Reflect that isn't limited to 4 projectiles? Devs do not care what you or me consider "normal" when designing the game, and neither should they.Edited by Sharee on September 15, 2016 7:25AM4 -
zyk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Step 1: find opponent already in combat
Step 2: soul assault
Step 3: radiant destruction
result: good fight
/headache0 -
Publius_Scipio wrote: »*Scipio sneaks up behind Negan*
*Scipio places the Spoon of Greek Yogurt Woe into The back of Negan's neck*
*All members of the Walking Dead cast saved*
While scipio is sneaking behind negan smiff is sneaking behind scipio and when scipio places spoon smiff places the hammer of justice on the backside of his head.Smiff0 -
Ghostbane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I wonder if they buffed it to compensate how buggy it is to use it, and they couldn't be arsed fixing it.{★★★★★ · ★★★★★ · ★★ · ★★★★★}350m+ AP PC - EUAddons
AD :: Imported Waffles [37]EP :: Wee ee ee ee ee [16]DC :: Ghostbane's DK [16], Impending Loadscreen [12]PC - NA
AD :: Ghostbane [50], yer ma [43], Sir Humphrey Winterbottom 2.0 [18], robotic baby legs [18]EP :: Wee Mad Arthur [50], avast ye buttcrackz [49], Sir Horace Foghorn [27], Brother Ballbag [24], Scatman John [16]DC :: W T B Waffles [36], Morale Boost [30], W T F Waffles [17], Ghostbanë [15]RIPAD :: Sir Humphrey Winterbottom 1.0 [20]- AP Meter : All your AP needs
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Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »The DPS is not the issue here. The terrible mechanics are. It is beyond dumb that using a damage skill makes you immune to CC and breaks the normal rules of the game.
It's an ultimate. Ultimates break the normal rules of the game. For example, take rite of passage. That too is a channel that is uninterruptable and makes the caster immune to CC for the duration.
You picked the exception and are trying to claim it's the rule
Most ultimates do not break the normal rules of the game. Banner, DK Leap, Magma Shell, Nova, Radial Sweep, Negate, Storm Atronach, Overload, Soul Harvest, Soul Tether, Veil of Blades, and Dawnbreaker all conform to the normal rules of the game. Heck, a DK can't even use Leap if they are rooted.
Rite of Passage would be 1000% worthless without the uninterruptible condition (and even so it's still pretty lackluster). Instead of breaking rules, it should be redesigned to actually do something worthy of an ultimate where rules don't have to be broken.
The other ultimate the breaks rules is meteor is unblockable - a lazy and dubious change that should be discouraged rather than encouraged.
Now we have the devs designing skills that actually have bows set down in random places firing at moving targets and uninterruptible channels. It's dumb, lazy, ruins my immersion, and not very compelling PvP.
Meteor is blockable.
He's saying the meteor change is another ultimate that defies ultimate logic.
But I'm starting to think ZOS wants ultimate logic to be "this type of ability should be the one skill on your bar granted to always hit or provide a huge buff. ". Banners, nova, veil, negate, etc being buff/debuff related, meteor, DB, SA, etc being direct dmg.
And it should, Its generation is locked behind a strict light attack system. It makes sense this particular ultimate differentiates from other channels that can be spammed (mostly because you can go back to casting a regular channel after interrupting but this skill is locked by ultimate points.)
DMG in general had really two major counters; block and healing. Dots and stam burn being the only counters to block and defile attacks+ Magicka burn being the only counters to healing.
Sounds like it will be a build related defense to this skill that anyone other than a NB should be able to counter (an effort to pull player numbers off NB and back to other classes to equalize cyro as a whole.).
I'd expect other ultimates to be shifted to this reasoning if they aren't already.Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual2 -
Manoekin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »The DPS is not the issue here. The terrible mechanics are. It is beyond dumb that using a damage skill makes you immune to CC and breaks the normal rules of the game.
It's an ultimate. Ultimates break the normal rules of the game. For example, take rite of passage. That too is a channel that is uninterruptable and makes the caster immune to CC for the duration.
You picked the exception and are trying to claim it's the rule
Most ultimates do not break the normal rules of the game. Banner, DK Leap, Magma Shell, Nova, Radial Sweep, Negate, Storm Atronach, Overload, Soul Harvest, Soul Tether, Veil of Blades, and Dawnbreaker all conform to the normal rules of the game. Heck, a DK can't even use Leap if they are rooted.
Rite of Passage would be 1000% worthless without the uninterruptible condition (and even so it's still pretty lackluster). Instead of breaking rules, it should be redesigned to actually do something worthy of an ultimate where rules don't have to be broken.
The other ultimate the breaks rules is meteor is unblockable - a lazy and dubious change that should be discouraged rather than encouraged.
Now we have the devs designing skills that actually have bows set down in random places firing at moving targets and uninterruptible channels. It's dumb, lazy, ruins my immersion, and not very compelling PvP.
Meteor is blockable.
He means reflectable.Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »The DPS is not the issue here. The terrible mechanics are. It is beyond dumb that using a damage skill makes you immune to CC and breaks the normal rules of the game.
It's an ultimate. Ultimates break the normal rules of the game. For example, take rite of passage. That too is a channel that is uninterruptable and makes the caster immune to CC for the duration.
You picked the exception and are trying to claim it's the rule
Most ultimates do not break the normal rules of the game. Banner, DK Leap, Magma Shell, Nova, Radial Sweep, Negate, Storm Atronach, Overload, Soul Harvest, Soul Tether, Veil of Blades, and Dawnbreaker all conform to the normal rules of the game.
Neither of those is a channel. I did not pick an exception, i picked another ultimate that is also a channel. When debating whether a channeled ultimate giving CC immunity is normal or not, it makes sense to compare it to another ultimate that is also channeled, not to those which aren't.
And as you pointed out, there also is another ultimate that breaks "normal rules". SA will be the 3rd. And the 1h/s ultimate will be another one. Blocking mitigation without holding block? Reflect that isn't limited to 4 projectiles? Devs do not care what you or me consider "normal" when designing the game, and neither should they.
I'm going to tell you why you're wrong now.
If you're going to claim you can't compare just ultimates, it has to be ultimates that are channeled, then I will claim you also can't compare Right of Passage to the new Soul Assault. Soul Assault is a ranged ability, Right of Passage is essentially a melee ability which is why it was given that bonus that breaks the normal rules of the game. Why? The same reason you can interrupt Crystal Frag/Dark Flare and not Dizzying Swing/Wrecking Blow. They're both casted abilities for crying out loud! By your logic Crystal Frag and Dark Flare should be uninterruptible as well. Melee cast/channels get this bonus because they would otherwise be useless. I remember watching Sabre Ali as a stam sorc duel a Magicka sorc on 1.6(I think) PTS. All the mag sorc had to do was spam crushing shock and Sabre couldn't even touch him.
Thus, using logic by comparing like abilities (though now you're going to tell me I can't compare the mechanics of ultimates to the mechanics of normal abilities) Soul Assault should leave you vulnerable to CC.
You can't even bring up the shield ult from next patch. It breaks no mechanical rules that have been established and enjoyed by the players.
What players here want is more options and viable abilities, yes, but what they don't want is abilities where you press the button and then go afk for the duration because you have ZOS armor.2 -
OdinForge✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I'm going to tell you why you're wrong now.
If you're going to claim you can't compare just ultimates, it has to be ultimates that are channeled, then I will claim you also can't compare Right of Passage to the new Soul Assault. Soul Assault is a ranged ability, Right of Passage is essentially a melee ability which is why it was given that bonus that breaks the normal rules of the game. Why? The same reason you can interrupt Crystal Frag/Dark Flare and not Dizzying Swing/Wrecking Blow. They're both casted abilities for crying out loud! By your logic Crystal Frag and Dark Flare should be uninterruptible as well. Melee cast/channels get this bonus because they would otherwise be useless. I remember watching Sabre Ali as a stam sorc duel a Magicka sorc on 1.6(I think) PTS. All the mag sorc had to do was spam crushing shock and Sabre couldn't even touch him.
Thus, using logic by comparing like abilities (though now you're going to tell me I can't compare the mechanics of ultimates to the mechanics of normal abilities) Soul Assault should leave you vulnerable to CC.
You can't even bring up the shield ult from next patch. It breaks no mechanical rules that have been established and enjoyed by the players.
What players here want is more options and viable abilities, yes, but what they don't want is abilities where you press the button and then go afk for the duration because you have ZOS armor.
Well said.The Age of Wrobel.0 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »The DPS is not the issue here. The terrible mechanics are. It is beyond dumb that using a damage skill makes you immune to CC and breaks the normal rules of the game.
It's an ultimate. Ultimates break the normal rules of the game. For example, take rite of passage. That too is a channel that is uninterruptable and makes the caster immune to CC for the duration.
You picked the exception and are trying to claim it's the rule
Most ultimates do not break the normal rules of the game. Banner, DK Leap, Magma Shell, Nova, Radial Sweep, Negate, Storm Atronach, Overload, Soul Harvest, Soul Tether, Veil of Blades, and Dawnbreaker all conform to the normal rules of the game. Heck, a DK can't even use Leap if they are rooted.
Rite of Passage would be 1000% worthless without the uninterruptible condition (and even so it's still pretty lackluster). Instead of breaking rules, it should be redesigned to actually do something worthy of an ultimate where rules don't have to be broken.
The other ultimate the breaks rules is meteor is unblockable - a lazy and dubious change that should be discouraged rather than encouraged.
Now we have the devs designing skills that actually have bows set down in random places firing at moving targets and uninterruptible channels. It's dumb, lazy, ruins my immersion, and not very compelling PvP.
Meteor is blockable.
He means reflectable.Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »The DPS is not the issue here. The terrible mechanics are. It is beyond dumb that using a damage skill makes you immune to CC and breaks the normal rules of the game.
It's an ultimate. Ultimates break the normal rules of the game. For example, take rite of passage. That too is a channel that is uninterruptable and makes the caster immune to CC for the duration.
You picked the exception and are trying to claim it's the rule
Most ultimates do not break the normal rules of the game. Banner, DK Leap, Magma Shell, Nova, Radial Sweep, Negate, Storm Atronach, Overload, Soul Harvest, Soul Tether, Veil of Blades, and Dawnbreaker all conform to the normal rules of the game.
Neither of those is a channel. I did not pick an exception, i picked another ultimate that is also a channel. When debating whether a channeled ultimate giving CC immunity is normal or not, it makes sense to compare it to another ultimate that is also channeled, not to those which aren't.
And as you pointed out, there also is another ultimate that breaks "normal rules". SA will be the 3rd. And the 1h/s ultimate will be another one. Blocking mitigation without holding block? Reflect that isn't limited to 4 projectiles? Devs do not care what you or me consider "normal" when designing the game, and neither should they.
I'm going to tell you why you're wrong now.
If you're going to claim you can't compare just ultimates, it has to be ultimates that are channeled, then I will claim you also can't compare Right of Passage to the new Soul Assault. Soul Assault is a ranged ability, Right of Passage is essentially a melee ability which is why it was given that bonus that breaks the normal rules of the game. Why? The same reason you can interrupt Crystal Frag/Dark Flare and not Dizzying Swing/Wrecking Blow. They're both casted abilities for crying out loud! By your logic Crystal Frag and Dark Flare should be uninterruptible as well. Melee cast/channels get this bonus because they would otherwise be useless. I remember watching Sabre Ali as a stam sorc duel a Magicka sorc on 1.6(I think) PTS. All the mag sorc had to do was spam crushing shock and Sabre couldn't even touch him.
Thus, using logic by comparing like abilities (though now you're going to tell me I can't compare the mechanics of ultimates to the mechanics of normal abilities) Soul Assault should leave you vulnerable to CC.
Of course i am going to tell you that - that's the whole point why soul assault makes you CC immune where normal ability channels don't. The latter can be spammed, the former can't.
Why do you think rite of passage gives CC immunity while healing ritual does not? They are essentially the same thing - AOE heal centered on the caster - yet only the rite has CC immunity, why? Because it cannot be repeated if interrupted! In other words, because its an ultimate!
Any ultimate that is not instant would be skipped by players simply because why risk wasting you ult by being CC-ed/interrupted when you can instead use something not vulnerable to interrupts/CC?
Why do you think almost no-one uses SA today? It's not because it lacks 15% damage - it's because it is trivial to counter. You can CC it, bash it, purge it, cloak it... If you want this ability to be actually USED, you need to make sure the players using it get their money's(ult's) worth. Or they will use something else (or continue to rightfully complain that there is no good classless single-target magicka ult).Edited by Sharee on September 16, 2016 5:58PM2 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »The DPS is not the issue here. The terrible mechanics are. It is beyond dumb that using a damage skill makes you immune to CC and breaks the normal rules of the game.
It's an ultimate. Ultimates break the normal rules of the game. For example, take rite of passage. That too is a channel that is uninterruptable and makes the caster immune to CC for the duration.
You picked the exception and are trying to claim it's the rule
Most ultimates do not break the normal rules of the game. Banner, DK Leap, Magma Shell, Nova, Radial Sweep, Negate, Storm Atronach, Overload, Soul Harvest, Soul Tether, Veil of Blades, and Dawnbreaker all conform to the normal rules of the game.
Neither of those is a channel. I did not pick an exception, i picked another ultimate that is also a channel. When debating whether a channeled ultimate giving CC immunity is normal or not, it makes sense to compare it to another ultimate that is also channeled, not to those which aren't.
And as you pointed out, there also is another ultimate that breaks "normal rules". SA will be the 3rd. And the 1h/s ultimate will be another one. Blocking mitigation without holding block? Reflect that isn't limited to 4 projectiles? Devs do not care what you or me consider "normal" when designing the game, and neither should they.
Devs should care about compelling PvP. Pressing "I win" buttons without having to think about tactics, consequence, or counter-play is something I'd rather not see.
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Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »The DPS is not the issue here. The terrible mechanics are. It is beyond dumb that using a damage skill makes you immune to CC and breaks the normal rules of the game.
It's an ultimate. Ultimates break the normal rules of the game. For example, take rite of passage. That too is a channel that is uninterruptable and makes the caster immune to CC for the duration.
You picked the exception and are trying to claim it's the rule
Most ultimates do not break the normal rules of the game. Banner, DK Leap, Magma Shell, Nova, Radial Sweep, Negate, Storm Atronach, Overload, Soul Harvest, Soul Tether, Veil of Blades, and Dawnbreaker all conform to the normal rules of the game.
Neither of those is a channel. I did not pick an exception, i picked another ultimate that is also a channel. When debating whether a channeled ultimate giving CC immunity is normal or not, it makes sense to compare it to another ultimate that is also channeled, not to those which aren't.
And as you pointed out, there also is another ultimate that breaks "normal rules". SA will be the 3rd. And the 1h/s ultimate will be another one. Blocking mitigation without holding block? Reflect that isn't limited to 4 projectiles? Devs do not care what you or me consider "normal" when designing the game, and neither should they.
Devs should care about compelling PvP. Pressing "I win" buttons without having to think about tactics, consequence, or counter-play is something I'd rather not see.
How is an uninterruptable channel more of an i-win button than an instant-cast ability?
Or in other words, wouldn't you agree that if you could interrupt SA ultimate, and only SA ultimate, it would be significantly less of an i-win button than pretty much every other ultimate there is?1 -
Manoekin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »The DPS is not the issue here. The terrible mechanics are. It is beyond dumb that using a damage skill makes you immune to CC and breaks the normal rules of the game.
It's an ultimate. Ultimates break the normal rules of the game. For example, take rite of passage. That too is a channel that is uninterruptable and makes the caster immune to CC for the duration.
You picked the exception and are trying to claim it's the rule
Most ultimates do not break the normal rules of the game. Banner, DK Leap, Magma Shell, Nova, Radial Sweep, Negate, Storm Atronach, Overload, Soul Harvest, Soul Tether, Veil of Blades, and Dawnbreaker all conform to the normal rules of the game. Heck, a DK can't even use Leap if they are rooted.
Rite of Passage would be 1000% worthless without the uninterruptible condition (and even so it's still pretty lackluster). Instead of breaking rules, it should be redesigned to actually do something worthy of an ultimate where rules don't have to be broken.
The other ultimate the breaks rules is meteor is unblockable - a lazy and dubious change that should be discouraged rather than encouraged.
Now we have the devs designing skills that actually have bows set down in random places firing at moving targets and uninterruptible channels. It's dumb, lazy, ruins my immersion, and not very compelling PvP.
Meteor is blockable.
He means reflectable.Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »The DPS is not the issue here. The terrible mechanics are. It is beyond dumb that using a damage skill makes you immune to CC and breaks the normal rules of the game.
It's an ultimate. Ultimates break the normal rules of the game. For example, take rite of passage. That too is a channel that is uninterruptable and makes the caster immune to CC for the duration.
You picked the exception and are trying to claim it's the rule
Most ultimates do not break the normal rules of the game. Banner, DK Leap, Magma Shell, Nova, Radial Sweep, Negate, Storm Atronach, Overload, Soul Harvest, Soul Tether, Veil of Blades, and Dawnbreaker all conform to the normal rules of the game.
Neither of those is a channel. I did not pick an exception, i picked another ultimate that is also a channel. When debating whether a channeled ultimate giving CC immunity is normal or not, it makes sense to compare it to another ultimate that is also channeled, not to those which aren't.
And as you pointed out, there also is another ultimate that breaks "normal rules". SA will be the 3rd. And the 1h/s ultimate will be another one. Blocking mitigation without holding block? Reflect that isn't limited to 4 projectiles? Devs do not care what you or me consider "normal" when designing the game, and neither should they.
I'm going to tell you why you're wrong now.
If you're going to claim you can't compare just ultimates, it has to be ultimates that are channeled, then I will claim you also can't compare Right of Passage to the new Soul Assault. Soul Assault is a ranged ability, Right of Passage is essentially a melee ability which is why it was given that bonus that breaks the normal rules of the game. Why? The same reason you can interrupt Crystal Frag/Dark Flare and not Dizzying Swing/Wrecking Blow. They're both casted abilities for crying out loud! By your logic Crystal Frag and Dark Flare should be uninterruptible as well. Melee cast/channels get this bonus because they would otherwise be useless. I remember watching Sabre Ali as a stam sorc duel a Magicka sorc on 1.6(I think) PTS. All the mag sorc had to do was spam crushing shock and Sabre couldn't even touch him.
Thus, using logic by comparing like abilities (though now you're going to tell me I can't compare the mechanics of ultimates to the mechanics of normal abilities) Soul Assault should leave you vulnerable to CC.
Of course i am going to tell you that - that's the whole point why soul assault makes you CC immune where normal ability channels don't. The latter can be spammed, the former can't.
Why do you think rite of passage gives CC immunity while healing ritual does not? They are essentially the same thing - AOE heal centered on the caster - yet only the rite has CC immunity, why? Because it cannot be repeated if interrupted! In other words, because its an ultimate!
Any ultimate that is not instant would be skipped by players simply because why risk wasting you ult by being CC-ed/interrupted when you can instead use something not vulnerable to interrupts/CC?
Why do you think almost no-one uses SA today? It's not because it lacks 15% damage - it's because it is trivial to counter. You can CC it, bash it, purge it, cloak it... If you want this ability to be actually USED, you need to make sure the players using it get their money's(ult's) worth. Or they will use something else (or continue to rightfully complain that there is no good classless single-target magicka ult).
Because Rite of Passage roots you in place and Healing Ritual does not. ZOS did not want to allow Templars to move while channeling Rite of Passage, and so they settled for CC immunity. Being able to move allows you to not be next to someone who can bash you. I'm not saying I actually like healing ritual because I think it's a garbage skill and always has been. However, that's probably the one case where I would praise ZOS for leaving an ability as being hard to use instead of just promoting button mashing.
Now I'll respond to the bolded part:
Why does anyone use an ultimate that can be countered? Meteor has been used since the game came out when it could be reflected. Standard/nova/veil have been used since the game came out and they can be negated or just moved out of. You can literally auto run out of the radius of dragon leap before it hits you. Can you not dodge incap? Can you not reflect overload? Why does anyone use these absolutely atrocious abilities?
Wait there's more! Remember when people used to use Soul Assault? I do. I don't remember it granting the user CC immunity. I remember it could be purged. It could be cloaked (maybe?
). People used it because it did insane single target damage, and they knew when to use it. The people using it to good effect weren't just slamming their palm on the keyboard and then wondering why soul assault didn't kill someone. Unfortunately that seems like the direction ZOS wants to go with PvP judging by changes like this. Unfortunately for you you're actually defending brain dead pvp. 7 -
Drummerx04✭✭✭✭✭
✭Lava_Croft wrote: »
Cloak was the first step on a road that Wrobel seems to enjoy following. Next up is locking DK's out of using Wings and Sorcs using Shields.Princess_Asgari wrote: »I dont mind most of the buffs to the ult, but i do mind the no purge or no cloaking it. I dont understand this new direction of not allowing class defining skills to do what they are intended to do.
Wings already lost the ability to reflect meteors a while ago.
That was in my opinion a good change. You should not be able to just take an ultimate and cast one spammable defense skill to send the ULTIMATE back at the caster.PC/NA - Nightfighters, Raid Leader and Officer
Lilith Arujo - DC sorc tank/dps/healer - Dro-m'Athra Destroyer, Gryphon Heart, Grand Warlord
Lilith Tortorici - DC templar trials healer
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Bot Scanner 2000
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Kill Counter0 -
Manoekin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Drummerx04 wrote: »Lava_Croft wrote: »
Cloak was the first step on a road that Wrobel seems to enjoy following. Next up is locking DK's out of using Wings and Sorcs using Shields.Princess_Asgari wrote: »I dont mind most of the buffs to the ult, but i do mind the no purge or no cloaking it. I dont understand this new direction of not allowing class defining skills to do what they are intended to do.
Wings already lost the ability to reflect meteors a while ago.
That was in my opinion a good change. You should not be able to just take an ultimate and cast one spammable defense skill to send the ULTIMATE back at the caster.
And yet, there was a way to make meteor hit your target 100% even if they reflected it. Unfortunately the majority of the player base doesn't care for testing, learning, trying things. They don't care for knowing how the game works and the mechanic that allows for you to smartly use Meteor. You get enough of these people on an online forum complaining about how they don't know what they are doing and you end up with the current version of Meteor.4 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »The DPS is not the issue here. The terrible mechanics are. It is beyond dumb that using a damage skill makes you immune to CC and breaks the normal rules of the game.
It's an ultimate. Ultimates break the normal rules of the game. For example, take rite of passage. That too is a channel that is uninterruptable and makes the caster immune to CC for the duration.
You picked the exception and are trying to claim it's the rule
Most ultimates do not break the normal rules of the game. Banner, DK Leap, Magma Shell, Nova, Radial Sweep, Negate, Storm Atronach, Overload, Soul Harvest, Soul Tether, Veil of Blades, and Dawnbreaker all conform to the normal rules of the game.
Neither of those is a channel. I did not pick an exception, i picked another ultimate that is also a channel. When debating whether a channeled ultimate giving CC immunity is normal or not, it makes sense to compare it to another ultimate that is also channeled, not to those which aren't.
And as you pointed out, there also is another ultimate that breaks "normal rules". SA will be the 3rd. And the 1h/s ultimate will be another one. Blocking mitigation without holding block? Reflect that isn't limited to 4 projectiles? Devs do not care what you or me consider "normal" when designing the game, and neither should they.
Devs should care about compelling PvP. Pressing "I win" buttons without having to think about tactics, consequence, or counter-play is something I'd rather not see.
How is an uninterruptable channel more of an i-win button than an instant-cast ability?
Or in other words, wouldn't you agree that if you could interrupt SA ultimate, and only SA ultimate, it would be significantly less of an i-win button than pretty much every other ultimate there is?
See @Manoekin 's response.
Instant cast abilities I can evade/mitigate/counter by doing something other than block. An uninterruptible channel is just telling players "cast this ridiculously high damage ability with no worries, no thinking, no strategy - the target will take damage!" It's a terrible mechanic that encourages mindless gameplay. You are normally an astute contributor on these forums, I cannot fathom how you think this is healthy for PvP, let alone something that players who care about skill and strategy would want.
And no, I don't agree. I used Soul Assault back in the day just fine: stun a wounded target then unload on them: pretty reliable kill actually. Did I disappoint you and Zenimax that I used my brain and opted to activate the ultimate at an optimal time? It's only less of an "I win" button for brainless button mashers who think targets should die when attacked by an ultiamte.
There are ways to improve Soul Assault and still keep intact compelling PvP. zenimax opted for the lazy route and should br criticized rather than encouraged.Edited by Joy_Division on September 16, 2016 8:28PM2 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Drummerx04 wrote: »Lava_Croft wrote: »
Cloak was the first step on a road that Wrobel seems to enjoy following. Next up is locking DK's out of using Wings and Sorcs using Shields.Princess_Asgari wrote: »I dont mind most of the buffs to the ult, but i do mind the no purge or no cloaking it. I dont understand this new direction of not allowing class defining skills to do what they are intended to do.
Wings already lost the ability to reflect meteors a while ago.
That was in my opinion a good change. You should not be able to just take an ultimate and cast one spammable defense skill to send the ULTIMATE back at the caster.
And yet, there was a way to make meteor hit your target 100% even if they reflected it. Unfortunately the majority of the player base doesn't care for testing, learning, trying things. They don't care for knowing how the game works and the mechanic that allows for you to smartly use Meteor. You get enough of these people on an online forum complaining about how they don't know what they are doing and you end up with the current version of Meteor.
If you think back on it, having the meteor bounce back a few times made the game play feel one sided, like there was an illusion of skill play. You timed the reflects and it was essentially a DK's and S+B build dominant play only.
Having it blockable only means all classes have access to its counter (you don't really need S+B to block), you still have to Cc before you use it if you want it to function at full dmg, and it saves on all the lag with the game calculations (remember the stutter that happened when you reflected it twice?)
Overall it's a more balanced change with more a universal counter.Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual1 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Because Rite of Passage roots you in place and Healing Ritual does not. ZOS did not want to allow Templars to move while channeling Rite of Passage, and so they settled for CC immunity. Being able to move allows you to not be next to someone who can bash you.
Casting healing ritual snares you 70%. Keep in mind CC immunity is a very powerful effect.
Option A: ZOS grants CC immunity to rite because it is meant to be used in the middle of heavy melee, and ZOS does not want an ultimate effect to be so easily nullified.
Option B: ZOS grants CC immunity to rite because you can not move at 30% speed during the channel. If you could, rite would not get that immunity.
If you think that option B is more likely, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.Now I'll respond to the bolded part:
Why does anyone use an ultimate that can be countered? Meteor has been used since the game came out when it could be reflected. Standard/nova/veil have been used since the game came out and they can be negated or just moved out of. You can literally auto run out of the radius of dragon leap before it hits you. Can you not dodge incap? Can you not reflect overload? Why does anyone use these absolutely atrocious abilities?
Wait there's more! Remember when people used to use Soul Assault? I do. I don't remember it granting the user CC immunity. I remember it could be purged. It could be cloaked (maybe? ). People used it because it did insane single target damage, and they knew when to use it. The people using it to good effect weren't just slamming their palm on the keyboard and then wondering why soul assault didn't kill someone. Unfortunately that seems like the direction ZOS wants to go with PvP judging by changes like this. Unfortunately for you you're actually defending brain dead pvp.
All those ultimates are still usable, still have their purpose, in specific scenarios. You never waste your ult unless you use it wrong. Standard needs to be used in enclosed spaces, incap on a feared target, etc.
With SA, the "wrong use" would be using it in melee range where it will be easily bashed. So use it at range, right? Well, there's the thing: People have been asking ZOS for a classless single-target magicka ultimate. And the response was(it was in the video from gamescom i think): "There already is one - soul assault. ".
Now consider this: If SA is supposed to be THE go-to single target magicka ultimate, like ZOS intends, it needs to be usable in melee as well. And that means it needs to be uninterruptable. I bet that's the reason why it got the immunity in the firstplace. Ranged casters can get by with the current SA mechanics - melees, not so much.
Edited by Sharee on September 16, 2016 11:28PM1 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »The DPS is not the issue here. The terrible mechanics are. It is beyond dumb that using a damage skill makes you immune to CC and breaks the normal rules of the game.
It's an ultimate. Ultimates break the normal rules of the game. For example, take rite of passage. That too is a channel that is uninterruptable and makes the caster immune to CC for the duration.
You picked the exception and are trying to claim it's the rule
Most ultimates do not break the normal rules of the game. Banner, DK Leap, Magma Shell, Nova, Radial Sweep, Negate, Storm Atronach, Overload, Soul Harvest, Soul Tether, Veil of Blades, and Dawnbreaker all conform to the normal rules of the game.
Neither of those is a channel. I did not pick an exception, i picked another ultimate that is also a channel. When debating whether a channeled ultimate giving CC immunity is normal or not, it makes sense to compare it to another ultimate that is also channeled, not to those which aren't.
And as you pointed out, there also is another ultimate that breaks "normal rules". SA will be the 3rd. And the 1h/s ultimate will be another one. Blocking mitigation without holding block? Reflect that isn't limited to 4 projectiles? Devs do not care what you or me consider "normal" when designing the game, and neither should they.
Devs should care about compelling PvP. Pressing "I win" buttons without having to think about tactics, consequence, or counter-play is something I'd rather not see.
How is an uninterruptable channel more of an i-win button than an instant-cast ability?
Or in other words, wouldn't you agree that if you could interrupt SA ultimate, and only SA ultimate, it would be significantly less of an i-win button than pretty much every other ultimate there is?
Instant cast abilities I can evade/mitigate/counter by doing something other than block.
And what can you do against a meteor that wouldn't work against soul assault?
Edited by Sharee on September 16, 2016 11:11PM1 -
Lord_Hev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Soul Assault can already be used as a Xv1 zerg tool, and it's unblockable damage atm, so you can't just"interrupt" the multiple people using it on you at zerg range anyway unless you have someone else spamming heavy heals on you. At least come next patch you can actually mitigate its damage.
All these people complaining about zerg empowerment. I'm all ready to 1vX all the Stam rerolls with this nifty toy next patch! I finally got my low cost magic burst ulti back from the previous one that was stolen from me and given to stamtards.A nice, reliable ultimate that wont get wasted because some NB light attacked me from stealth triggering the stealth stun, or the gazzillion other stupid cheap CC hurled at me.
But the best part? The NB QQ, oh man. All the times I got detect pots active, but I don't even get a single soul assault tick because they are just spamming cloak even though they are in my detect pot range and fully visible... I'm going to bathe myself in their tears. It is the final ultimate balanced to not be shut-down by a cheap class ability, just like meteor before it.
#HYPE4 -
Manoekin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Drummerx04 wrote: »Lava_Croft wrote: »
Cloak was the first step on a road that Wrobel seems to enjoy following. Next up is locking DK's out of using Wings and Sorcs using Shields.Princess_Asgari wrote: »I dont mind most of the buffs to the ult, but i do mind the no purge or no cloaking it. I dont understand this new direction of not allowing class defining skills to do what they are intended to do.
Wings already lost the ability to reflect meteors a while ago.
That was in my opinion a good change. You should not be able to just take an ultimate and cast one spammable defense skill to send the ULTIMATE back at the caster.
And yet, there was a way to make meteor hit your target 100% even if they reflected it. Unfortunately the majority of the player base doesn't care for testing, learning, trying things. They don't care for knowing how the game works and the mechanic that allows for you to smartly use Meteor. You get enough of these people on an online forum complaining about how they don't know what they are doing and you end up with the current version of Meteor.
If you think back on it, having the meteor bounce back a few times made the game play feel one sided, like there was an illusion of skill play. You timed the reflects and it was essentially a DK's and S+B build dominant play only.
Having it blockable only means all classes have access to its counter (you don't really need S+B to block), you still have to Cc before you use it if you want it to function at full dmg, and it saves on all the lag with the game calculations (remember the stutter that happened when you reflected it twice?)
Overall it's a more balanced change with more a universal counter.
Blocking was still an option back then, so I don't see the difference if we're going to claim reflecting it was trivial. Fact of the matter is there was ways to prevent it being reflected at you as well should you be aware enough to throw a light attack/entropy or such at the enemy to have that reflected instead of the meteor (DK's make this complicated. and rightfully so as it's a class defining feature). I don't recall lag caused by meteor though. Every fight I can remember either went smoothly with many meteors getting pinged around (#thanksve #thankshaxus), or the lag was already there prior. The only thing I think it could have possibly helped with was the fall damage bug.
Because Rite of Passage roots you in place and Healing Ritual does not. ZOS did not want to allow Templars to move while channeling Rite of Passage, and so they settled for CC immunity. Being able to move allows you to not be next to someone who can bash you.
Casting healing ritual snares you 70%. Keep in mind CC immunity is a very powerful effect.
Option A: ZOS grants CC immunity to rite because it is meant to be used in the middle of heavy melee, and ZOS does not want an ultimate effect to be so easily nullified.
Option B: ZOS grants CC immunity to rite because you can not move at 30% speed during the channel. If you could, rite would not get that immunity.
If you think that option B is more likely, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.Now I'll respond to the bolded part:
Why does anyone use an ultimate that can be countered? Meteor has been used since the game came out when it could be reflected. Standard/nova/veil have been used since the game came out and they can be negated or just moved out of. You can literally auto run out of the radius of dragon leap before it hits you. Can you not dodge incap? Can you not reflect overload? Why does anyone use these absolutely atrocious abilities?
Wait there's more! Remember when people used to use Soul Assault? I do. I don't remember it granting the user CC immunity. I remember it could be purged. It could be cloaked (maybe? ). People used it because it did insane single target damage, and they knew when to use it. The people using it to good effect weren't just slamming their palm on the keyboard and then wondering why soul assault didn't kill someone. Unfortunately that seems like the direction ZOS wants to go with PvP judging by changes like this. Unfortunately for you you're actually defending brain dead pvp.
All those ultimates are still usable, still have their purpose, in specific scenarios. You never waste your ult unless you use it wrong. Standard needs to be used in enclosed spaces, incap on a feared target, etc.
With SA, the "wrong use" would be using it in melee range where it will be easily bashed. So use it at range, right? Well, there's the thing: People have been asking ZOS for a classless single-target magicka ultimate. And the response was(it was in the video from gamescom i think): "There already is one - soul assault. ".
Now consider this: If SA is supposed to be THE go-to single target magicka ultimate, like ZOS intends, it needs to be usable in melee as well. And that means it needs to be uninterruptable. I bet that's the reason why it got the immunity in the firstplace. Ranged casters can get by with the current SA mechanics - melees, not so much.
I mean you can believe what you want to believe, but being able to move is infinitely better than not. IDK, maybe you'll get a different response when you ask Wrobel directly about the skill.
I'd like to bring some attention to a specific part of your post however. Bolding it isn't enough. I had to go to great measures to adequately prove how *** this whole argument is.
Here it is:
It... it's almost like that applies to EVERY SKILL IN THE GAME INCLUDING EVERY ULTIMATE. Hopefully now that I've converted one person I can have better luck banging it into the much thicker skulls of everyone else.2 -
Lord_Hev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Drummerx04 wrote: »Lava_Croft wrote: »
Cloak was the first step on a road that Wrobel seems to enjoy following. Next up is locking DK's out of using Wings and Sorcs using Shields.Princess_Asgari wrote: »I dont mind most of the buffs to the ult, but i do mind the no purge or no cloaking it. I dont understand this new direction of not allowing class defining skills to do what they are intended to do.
Wings already lost the ability to reflect meteors a while ago.
That was in my opinion a good change. You should not be able to just take an ultimate and cast one spammable defense skill to send the ULTIMATE back at the caster.
And yet, there was a way to make meteor hit your target 100% even if they reflected it. Unfortunately the majority of the player base doesn't care for testing, learning, trying things. They don't care for knowing how the game works and the mechanic that allows for you to smartly use Meteor. You get enough of these people on an online forum complaining about how they don't know what they are doing and you end up with the current version of Meteor.
If you think back on it, having the meteor bounce back a few times made the game play feel one sided, like there was an illusion of skill play. You timed the reflects and it was essentially a DK's and S+B build dominant play only.
Having it blockable only means all classes have access to its counter (you don't really need S+B to block), you still have to Cc before you use it if you want it to function at full dmg, and it saves on all the lag with the game calculations (remember the stutter that happened when you reflected it twice?)
Overall it's a more balanced change with more a universal counter.
Blocking was still an option back then, so I don't see the difference if we're going to claim reflecting it was trivial. Fact of the matter is there was ways to prevent it being reflected at you as well should you be aware enough to throw a light attack/entropy or such at the enemy to have that reflected instead of the meteor (DK's make this complicated. and rightfully so as it's a class defining feature). I don't recall lag caused by meteor though. Every fight I can remember either went smoothly with many meteors getting pinged around (#thanksve #thankshaxus), or the lag was already there prior. The only thing I think it could have possibly helped with was the fall damage bug.
Because Rite of Passage roots you in place and Healing Ritual does not. ZOS did not want to allow Templars to move while channeling Rite of Passage, and so they settled for CC immunity. Being able to move allows you to not be next to someone who can bash you.
Casting healing ritual snares you 70%. Keep in mind CC immunity is a very powerful effect.
Option A: ZOS grants CC immunity to rite because it is meant to be used in the middle of heavy melee, and ZOS does not want an ultimate effect to be so easily nullified.
Option B: ZOS grants CC immunity to rite because you can not move at 30% speed during the channel. If you could, rite would not get that immunity.
If you think that option B is more likely, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.Now I'll respond to the bolded part:
Why does anyone use an ultimate that can be countered? Meteor has been used since the game came out when it could be reflected. Standard/nova/veil have been used since the game came out and they can be negated or just moved out of. You can literally auto run out of the radius of dragon leap before it hits you. Can you not dodge incap? Can you not reflect overload? Why does anyone use these absolutely atrocious abilities?
Wait there's more! Remember when people used to use Soul Assault? I do. I don't remember it granting the user CC immunity. I remember it could be purged. It could be cloaked (maybe? ). People used it because it did insane single target damage, and they knew when to use it. The people using it to good effect weren't just slamming their palm on the keyboard and then wondering why soul assault didn't kill someone. Unfortunately that seems like the direction ZOS wants to go with PvP judging by changes like this. Unfortunately for you you're actually defending brain dead pvp.
All those ultimates are still usable, still have their purpose, in specific scenarios. You never waste your ult unless you use it wrong. Standard needs to be used in enclosed spaces, incap on a feared target, etc.
With SA, the "wrong use" would be using it in melee range where it will be easily bashed. So use it at range, right? Well, there's the thing: People have been asking ZOS for a classless single-target magicka ultimate. And the response was(it was in the video from gamescom i think): "There already is one - soul assault. ".
Now consider this: If SA is supposed to be THE go-to single target magicka ultimate, like ZOS intends, it needs to be usable in melee as well. And that means it needs to be uninterruptable. I bet that's the reason why it got the immunity in the firstplace. Ranged casters can get by with the current SA mechanics - melees, not so much.
I mean you can believe what you want to believe, but being able to move is infinitely better than not. IDK, maybe you'll get a different response when you ask Wrobel directly about the skill.
I'd like to bring some attention to a specific part of your post however. Bolding it isn't enough. I had to go to great measures to adequately prove how *** this whole argument is.
Here it is:
It... it's almost like that applies to EVERY SKILL IN THE GAME INCLUDING EVERY ULTIMATE. Hopefully now that I've converted one person I can have better luck banging it into the much thicker skulls of everyone else.
So, when I use a detect pot, making the NB fully visible through his cloak spam, my Soul Assault gets instantly eaten and negated by cloak spam(target is -fully- visible due to detect pot) It's my fault for using my ultimate wrong?
lol1 -
Manoekin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Drummerx04 wrote: »Lava_Croft wrote: »
Cloak was the first step on a road that Wrobel seems to enjoy following. Next up is locking DK's out of using Wings and Sorcs using Shields.Princess_Asgari wrote: »I dont mind most of the buffs to the ult, but i do mind the no purge or no cloaking it. I dont understand this new direction of not allowing class defining skills to do what they are intended to do.
Wings already lost the ability to reflect meteors a while ago.
That was in my opinion a good change. You should not be able to just take an ultimate and cast one spammable defense skill to send the ULTIMATE back at the caster.
And yet, there was a way to make meteor hit your target 100% even if they reflected it. Unfortunately the majority of the player base doesn't care for testing, learning, trying things. They don't care for knowing how the game works and the mechanic that allows for you to smartly use Meteor. You get enough of these people on an online forum complaining about how they don't know what they are doing and you end up with the current version of Meteor.
If you think back on it, having the meteor bounce back a few times made the game play feel one sided, like there was an illusion of skill play. You timed the reflects and it was essentially a DK's and S+B build dominant play only.
Having it blockable only means all classes have access to its counter (you don't really need S+B to block), you still have to Cc before you use it if you want it to function at full dmg, and it saves on all the lag with the game calculations (remember the stutter that happened when you reflected it twice?)
Overall it's a more balanced change with more a universal counter.
Blocking was still an option back then, so I don't see the difference if we're going to claim reflecting it was trivial. Fact of the matter is there was ways to prevent it being reflected at you as well should you be aware enough to throw a light attack/entropy or such at the enemy to have that reflected instead of the meteor (DK's make this complicated. and rightfully so as it's a class defining feature). I don't recall lag caused by meteor though. Every fight I can remember either went smoothly with many meteors getting pinged around (#thanksve #thankshaxus), or the lag was already there prior. The only thing I think it could have possibly helped with was the fall damage bug.
Because Rite of Passage roots you in place and Healing Ritual does not. ZOS did not want to allow Templars to move while channeling Rite of Passage, and so they settled for CC immunity. Being able to move allows you to not be next to someone who can bash you.
Casting healing ritual snares you 70%. Keep in mind CC immunity is a very powerful effect.
Option A: ZOS grants CC immunity to rite because it is meant to be used in the middle of heavy melee, and ZOS does not want an ultimate effect to be so easily nullified.
Option B: ZOS grants CC immunity to rite because you can not move at 30% speed during the channel. If you could, rite would not get that immunity.
If you think that option B is more likely, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.Now I'll respond to the bolded part:
Why does anyone use an ultimate that can be countered? Meteor has been used since the game came out when it could be reflected. Standard/nova/veil have been used since the game came out and they can be negated or just moved out of. You can literally auto run out of the radius of dragon leap before it hits you. Can you not dodge incap? Can you not reflect overload? Why does anyone use these absolutely atrocious abilities?
Wait there's more! Remember when people used to use Soul Assault? I do. I don't remember it granting the user CC immunity. I remember it could be purged. It could be cloaked (maybe? ). People used it because it did insane single target damage, and they knew when to use it. The people using it to good effect weren't just slamming their palm on the keyboard and then wondering why soul assault didn't kill someone. Unfortunately that seems like the direction ZOS wants to go with PvP judging by changes like this. Unfortunately for you you're actually defending brain dead pvp.
All those ultimates are still usable, still have their purpose, in specific scenarios. You never waste your ult unless you use it wrong. Standard needs to be used in enclosed spaces, incap on a feared target, etc.
With SA, the "wrong use" would be using it in melee range where it will be easily bashed. So use it at range, right? Well, there's the thing: People have been asking ZOS for a classless single-target magicka ultimate. And the response was(it was in the video from gamescom i think): "There already is one - soul assault. ".
Now consider this: If SA is supposed to be THE go-to single target magicka ultimate, like ZOS intends, it needs to be usable in melee as well. And that means it needs to be uninterruptable. I bet that's the reason why it got the immunity in the firstplace. Ranged casters can get by with the current SA mechanics - melees, not so much.
I mean you can believe what you want to believe, but being able to move is infinitely better than not. IDK, maybe you'll get a different response when you ask Wrobel directly about the skill.
I'd like to bring some attention to a specific part of your post however. Bolding it isn't enough. I had to go to great measures to adequately prove how *** this whole argument is.
Here it is:
It... it's almost like that applies to EVERY SKILL IN THE GAME INCLUDING EVERY ULTIMATE. Hopefully now that I've converted one person I can have better luck banging it into the much thicker skulls of everyone else.
So, when I use a detect pot, making the NB fully visible through his cloak spam, my Soul Assault gets instantly eaten and negated by cloak spam(target is -fully- visible due to detect pot) It's my fault for using my ultimate wrong?
lol
Uh, yes.3 -
Lord_Hev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Drummerx04 wrote: »Lava_Croft wrote: »
Cloak was the first step on a road that Wrobel seems to enjoy following. Next up is locking DK's out of using Wings and Sorcs using Shields.Princess_Asgari wrote: »I dont mind most of the buffs to the ult, but i do mind the no purge or no cloaking it. I dont understand this new direction of not allowing class defining skills to do what they are intended to do.
Wings already lost the ability to reflect meteors a while ago.
That was in my opinion a good change. You should not be able to just take an ultimate and cast one spammable defense skill to send the ULTIMATE back at the caster.
And yet, there was a way to make meteor hit your target 100% even if they reflected it. Unfortunately the majority of the player base doesn't care for testing, learning, trying things. They don't care for knowing how the game works and the mechanic that allows for you to smartly use Meteor. You get enough of these people on an online forum complaining about how they don't know what they are doing and you end up with the current version of Meteor.
If you think back on it, having the meteor bounce back a few times made the game play feel one sided, like there was an illusion of skill play. You timed the reflects and it was essentially a DK's and S+B build dominant play only.
Having it blockable only means all classes have access to its counter (you don't really need S+B to block), you still have to Cc before you use it if you want it to function at full dmg, and it saves on all the lag with the game calculations (remember the stutter that happened when you reflected it twice?)
Overall it's a more balanced change with more a universal counter.
Blocking was still an option back then, so I don't see the difference if we're going to claim reflecting it was trivial. Fact of the matter is there was ways to prevent it being reflected at you as well should you be aware enough to throw a light attack/entropy or such at the enemy to have that reflected instead of the meteor (DK's make this complicated. and rightfully so as it's a class defining feature). I don't recall lag caused by meteor though. Every fight I can remember either went smoothly with many meteors getting pinged around (#thanksve #thankshaxus), or the lag was already there prior. The only thing I think it could have possibly helped with was the fall damage bug.
Because Rite of Passage roots you in place and Healing Ritual does not. ZOS did not want to allow Templars to move while channeling Rite of Passage, and so they settled for CC immunity. Being able to move allows you to not be next to someone who can bash you.
Casting healing ritual snares you 70%. Keep in mind CC immunity is a very powerful effect.
Option A: ZOS grants CC immunity to rite because it is meant to be used in the middle of heavy melee, and ZOS does not want an ultimate effect to be so easily nullified.
Option B: ZOS grants CC immunity to rite because you can not move at 30% speed during the channel. If you could, rite would not get that immunity.
If you think that option B is more likely, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.Now I'll respond to the bolded part:
Why does anyone use an ultimate that can be countered? Meteor has been used since the game came out when it could be reflected. Standard/nova/veil have been used since the game came out and they can be negated or just moved out of. You can literally auto run out of the radius of dragon leap before it hits you. Can you not dodge incap? Can you not reflect overload? Why does anyone use these absolutely atrocious abilities?
Wait there's more! Remember when people used to use Soul Assault? I do. I don't remember it granting the user CC immunity. I remember it could be purged. It could be cloaked (maybe? ). People used it because it did insane single target damage, and they knew when to use it. The people using it to good effect weren't just slamming their palm on the keyboard and then wondering why soul assault didn't kill someone. Unfortunately that seems like the direction ZOS wants to go with PvP judging by changes like this. Unfortunately for you you're actually defending brain dead pvp.
All those ultimates are still usable, still have their purpose, in specific scenarios. You never waste your ult unless you use it wrong. Standard needs to be used in enclosed spaces, incap on a feared target, etc.
With SA, the "wrong use" would be using it in melee range where it will be easily bashed. So use it at range, right? Well, there's the thing: People have been asking ZOS for a classless single-target magicka ultimate. And the response was(it was in the video from gamescom i think): "There already is one - soul assault. ".
Now consider this: If SA is supposed to be THE go-to single target magicka ultimate, like ZOS intends, it needs to be usable in melee as well. And that means it needs to be uninterruptable. I bet that's the reason why it got the immunity in the firstplace. Ranged casters can get by with the current SA mechanics - melees, not so much.
I mean you can believe what you want to believe, but being able to move is infinitely better than not. IDK, maybe you'll get a different response when you ask Wrobel directly about the skill.
I'd like to bring some attention to a specific part of your post however. Bolding it isn't enough. I had to go to great measures to adequately prove how *** this whole argument is.
Here it is:
It... it's almost like that applies to EVERY SKILL IN THE GAME INCLUDING EVERY ULTIMATE. Hopefully now that I've converted one person I can have better luck banging it into the much thicker skulls of everyone else.
So, when I use a detect pot, making the NB fully visible through his cloak spam, my Soul Assault gets instantly eaten and negated by cloak spam(target is -fully- visible due to detect pot) It's my fault for using my ultimate wrong?
lol
Uh, yes.
Uh, no.2 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »The DPS is not the issue here. The terrible mechanics are. It is beyond dumb that using a damage skill makes you immune to CC and breaks the normal rules of the game.
It's an ultimate. Ultimates break the normal rules of the game. For example, take rite of passage. That too is a channel that is uninterruptable and makes the caster immune to CC for the duration.
You picked the exception and are trying to claim it's the rule
Most ultimates do not break the normal rules of the game. Banner, DK Leap, Magma Shell, Nova, Radial Sweep, Negate, Storm Atronach, Overload, Soul Harvest, Soul Tether, Veil of Blades, and Dawnbreaker all conform to the normal rules of the game.
Neither of those is a channel. I did not pick an exception, i picked another ultimate that is also a channel. When debating whether a channeled ultimate giving CC immunity is normal or not, it makes sense to compare it to another ultimate that is also channeled, not to those which aren't.
And as you pointed out, there also is another ultimate that breaks "normal rules". SA will be the 3rd. And the 1h/s ultimate will be another one. Blocking mitigation without holding block? Reflect that isn't limited to 4 projectiles? Devs do not care what you or me consider "normal" when designing the game, and neither should they.
Devs should care about compelling PvP. Pressing "I win" buttons without having to think about tactics, consequence, or counter-play is something I'd rather not see.
How is an uninterruptable channel more of an i-win button than an instant-cast ability?
Or in other words, wouldn't you agree that if you could interrupt SA ultimate, and only SA ultimate, it would be significantly less of an i-win button than pretty much every other ultimate there is?
Instant cast abilities I can evade/mitigate/counter by doing something other than block.
And what can you do against a meteor that wouldn't work against soul assault?
See the telegraph, go get a drink, come back and do one of the following, switch weapons, mist form, change my potions, move behind a tree, immediately counter attack the instant it lands, et al.
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Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I mean you can believe what you want to believe, but being able to move is infinitely better than not. IDK, maybe you'll get a different response when you ask Wrobel directly about the skill.
I don't need to ask him. He already answered the question by giving CC immunity to another channeled ultimate, one that doesn't root you in place. The ability to move or not while channeling seems to have less impact on his decision whether to give the channel CC immunity than you believed.I'd like to bring some attention to a specific part of your post however. Bolding it isn't enough. I had to go to great measures to adequately prove how *** this whole argument is.
Here it is:
It... it's almost like that applies to EVERY SKILL IN THE GAME INCLUDING EVERY ULTIMATE. Hopefully now that I've converted one person I can have better luck banging it into the much thicker skulls of everyone else.
Making SA not easily interruptable does not mean the principle you quoted in the picture above wouldn't apply to it.
It would still be a bad idea to use it against an enemy who could easily LOS it, or against an enemy who could just block and kill you while you are locked into a long channel, unable defend yourself.
The whole premise that the CC immunity somehow makes using SA mindless is wrong.Edited by Sharee on September 17, 2016 8:41AM1 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »The DPS is not the issue here. The terrible mechanics are. It is beyond dumb that using a damage skill makes you immune to CC and breaks the normal rules of the game.
It's an ultimate. Ultimates break the normal rules of the game. For example, take rite of passage. That too is a channel that is uninterruptable and makes the caster immune to CC for the duration.
You picked the exception and are trying to claim it's the rule
Most ultimates do not break the normal rules of the game. Banner, DK Leap, Magma Shell, Nova, Radial Sweep, Negate, Storm Atronach, Overload, Soul Harvest, Soul Tether, Veil of Blades, and Dawnbreaker all conform to the normal rules of the game.
Neither of those is a channel. I did not pick an exception, i picked another ultimate that is also a channel. When debating whether a channeled ultimate giving CC immunity is normal or not, it makes sense to compare it to another ultimate that is also channeled, not to those which aren't.
And as you pointed out, there also is another ultimate that breaks "normal rules". SA will be the 3rd. And the 1h/s ultimate will be another one. Blocking mitigation without holding block? Reflect that isn't limited to 4 projectiles? Devs do not care what you or me consider "normal" when designing the game, and neither should they.
Devs should care about compelling PvP. Pressing "I win" buttons without having to think about tactics, consequence, or counter-play is something I'd rather not see.
How is an uninterruptable channel more of an i-win button than an instant-cast ability?
Or in other words, wouldn't you agree that if you could interrupt SA ultimate, and only SA ultimate, it would be significantly less of an i-win button than pretty much every other ultimate there is?
Instant cast abilities I can evade/mitigate/counter by doing something other than block.
And what can you do against a meteor that wouldn't work against soul assault?
See the telegraph, go get a drink, come back and do one of the following, switch weapons, mist form, change my potions, move behind a tree, immediately counter attack the instant it lands, et al.
Is the telegraph of soul assault is so much less obvious and so much shorter than the one of meteor that you absolutely cannot react to it by mist forming, and moving behind a tree?
Or just simply block and counter attack right away, while the poor sod can't block whatever you decide to throw at him.1 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »The DPS is not the issue here. The terrible mechanics are. It is beyond dumb that using a damage skill makes you immune to CC and breaks the normal rules of the game.
It's an ultimate. Ultimates break the normal rules of the game. For example, take rite of passage. That too is a channel that is uninterruptable and makes the caster immune to CC for the duration.
You picked the exception and are trying to claim it's the rule
Most ultimates do not break the normal rules of the game. Banner, DK Leap, Magma Shell, Nova, Radial Sweep, Negate, Storm Atronach, Overload, Soul Harvest, Soul Tether, Veil of Blades, and Dawnbreaker all conform to the normal rules of the game.
Neither of those is a channel. I did not pick an exception, i picked another ultimate that is also a channel. When debating whether a channeled ultimate giving CC immunity is normal or not, it makes sense to compare it to another ultimate that is also channeled, not to those which aren't.
And as you pointed out, there also is another ultimate that breaks "normal rules". SA will be the 3rd. And the 1h/s ultimate will be another one. Blocking mitigation without holding block? Reflect that isn't limited to 4 projectiles? Devs do not care what you or me consider "normal" when designing the game, and neither should they.
Devs should care about compelling PvP. Pressing "I win" buttons without having to think about tactics, consequence, or counter-play is something I'd rather not see.
How is an uninterruptable channel more of an i-win button than an instant-cast ability?
Or in other words, wouldn't you agree that if you could interrupt SA ultimate, and only SA ultimate, it would be significantly less of an i-win button than pretty much every other ultimate there is?
Instant cast abilities I can evade/mitigate/counter by doing something other than block.
And what can you do against a meteor that wouldn't work against soul assault?
See the telegraph, go get a drink, come back and do one of the following, switch weapons, mist form, change my potions, move behind a tree, immediately counter attack the instant it lands, et al.
Is the telegraph of soul assault is so much less obvious and so much shorter than the one of meteor that you absolutely cannot react to it by mist forming, and moving behind a tree?
Or just simply block and counter attack right away, while the poor sod can't block whatever you decide to throw at him.
Yes.
When someone presses their Meteor ultimate button, the game tells you in about 3 seconds you are going to get hit and can plan ahead accordingly.
When someone presses their soul assault ultimate button, you immediately start taking damage and have to react. If you are on a different bar, you would have to swap and then activate the skill, which takes time and leaves you exposed to take the full damage. Moving behind a tree? You are 70% snared when hit with soul assault and that happens immediately. No, the poor sod can't block, but neither can they be stunned, let alone interrupted. And since you are blocking, super-snared, and cant even stun the soul assaulter, the "whatever" you throw at them in their counter attack is not going to be very threatening, let alone force them to decide whether or not to continue the channel, which might actually be interesting gameplay but ZoS wants none of that.
I would much rather get targeted by the meteor ultimate that is more than twice as expensive and it's not close. Which is a sad state of affairs because meteor is another ultimate with lazy mechanics.
I think you are just arguing this just for arguments sake. I despise the stam meta with a burning hatred and I have many times told ZoS how dumb it is in numerous ways, and even offered lengthy advice on how to get some semblance of balance back. The point of the matter is, yes, ZoS had the right intent on providing magicka with a cheap burst DPS alt available to everyone, but totally missed the boat on how to go about doing that with a lazy, noob-friendly design that is overly restrictive as far as counterplay. I dont want magicka to be competitive because I have a cheese Xv1 troll ultimate.Edited by Joy_Division on September 17, 2016 1:51PM2 -
Rohamad_Ali✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Guru Nanak loves the soul assault morphs .
Many beams will be cast in his honor .2 -
Manoekin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Drummerx04 wrote: »Lava_Croft wrote: »
Cloak was the first step on a road that Wrobel seems to enjoy following. Next up is locking DK's out of using Wings and Sorcs using Shields.Princess_Asgari wrote: »I dont mind most of the buffs to the ult, but i do mind the no purge or no cloaking it. I dont understand this new direction of not allowing class defining skills to do what they are intended to do.
Wings already lost the ability to reflect meteors a while ago.
That was in my opinion a good change. You should not be able to just take an ultimate and cast one spammable defense skill to send the ULTIMATE back at the caster.
And yet, there was a way to make meteor hit your target 100% even if they reflected it. Unfortunately the majority of the player base doesn't care for testing, learning, trying things. They don't care for knowing how the game works and the mechanic that allows for you to smartly use Meteor. You get enough of these people on an online forum complaining about how they don't know what they are doing and you end up with the current version of Meteor.
If you think back on it, having the meteor bounce back a few times made the game play feel one sided, like there was an illusion of skill play. You timed the reflects and it was essentially a DK's and S+B build dominant play only.
Having it blockable only means all classes have access to its counter (you don't really need S+B to block), you still have to Cc before you use it if you want it to function at full dmg, and it saves on all the lag with the game calculations (remember the stutter that happened when you reflected it twice?)
Overall it's a more balanced change with more a universal counter.
Blocking was still an option back then, so I don't see the difference if we're going to claim reflecting it was trivial. Fact of the matter is there was ways to prevent it being reflected at you as well should you be aware enough to throw a light attack/entropy or such at the enemy to have that reflected instead of the meteor (DK's make this complicated. and rightfully so as it's a class defining feature). I don't recall lag caused by meteor though. Every fight I can remember either went smoothly with many meteors getting pinged around (#thanksve #thankshaxus), or the lag was already there prior. The only thing I think it could have possibly helped with was the fall damage bug.
Because Rite of Passage roots you in place and Healing Ritual does not. ZOS did not want to allow Templars to move while channeling Rite of Passage, and so they settled for CC immunity. Being able to move allows you to not be next to someone who can bash you.
Casting healing ritual snares you 70%. Keep in mind CC immunity is a very powerful effect.
Option A: ZOS grants CC immunity to rite because it is meant to be used in the middle of heavy melee, and ZOS does not want an ultimate effect to be so easily nullified.
Option B: ZOS grants CC immunity to rite because you can not move at 30% speed during the channel. If you could, rite would not get that immunity.
If you think that option B is more likely, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.Now I'll respond to the bolded part:
Why does anyone use an ultimate that can be countered? Meteor has been used since the game came out when it could be reflected. Standard/nova/veil have been used since the game came out and they can be negated or just moved out of. You can literally auto run out of the radius of dragon leap before it hits you. Can you not dodge incap? Can you not reflect overload? Why does anyone use these absolutely atrocious abilities?
Wait there's more! Remember when people used to use Soul Assault? I do. I don't remember it granting the user CC immunity. I remember it could be purged. It could be cloaked (maybe? ). People used it because it did insane single target damage, and they knew when to use it. The people using it to good effect weren't just slamming their palm on the keyboard and then wondering why soul assault didn't kill someone. Unfortunately that seems like the direction ZOS wants to go with PvP judging by changes like this. Unfortunately for you you're actually defending brain dead pvp.
All those ultimates are still usable, still have their purpose, in specific scenarios. You never waste your ult unless you use it wrong. Standard needs to be used in enclosed spaces, incap on a feared target, etc.
With SA, the "wrong use" would be using it in melee range where it will be easily bashed. So use it at range, right? Well, there's the thing: People have been asking ZOS for a classless single-target magicka ultimate. And the response was(it was in the video from gamescom i think): "There already is one - soul assault. ".
Now consider this: If SA is supposed to be THE go-to single target magicka ultimate, like ZOS intends, it needs to be usable in melee as well. And that means it needs to be uninterruptable. I bet that's the reason why it got the immunity in the firstplace. Ranged casters can get by with the current SA mechanics - melees, not so much.
I mean you can believe what you want to believe, but being able to move is infinitely better than not. IDK, maybe you'll get a different response when you ask Wrobel directly about the skill.
I'd like to bring some attention to a specific part of your post however. Bolding it isn't enough. I had to go to great measures to adequately prove how *** this whole argument is.
Here it is:
It... it's almost like that applies to EVERY SKILL IN THE GAME INCLUDING EVERY ULTIMATE. Hopefully now that I've converted one person I can have better luck banging it into the much thicker skulls of everyone else.
So, when I use a detect pot, making the NB fully visible through his cloak spam, my Soul Assault gets instantly eaten and negated by cloak spam(target is -fully- visible due to detect pot) It's my fault for using my ultimate wrong?
lol
Uh, yes.
Uh, no.
Be intelligent. If you know it's not going to work then don't *** use it when they're spamming cloak. This is Brain Dead PvP 101 qaevir keep up please.
Honestly the mechanic sounds like it doesn't work the way it should, not Soul Assault. If that's actually happening it's a problem for other skills not just that one, so it makes no sense to change just one skill. Why don't detect pots just have a stealth lockout aura around you like flare? Wow so hard m8.2
