Nirhoned

sluice

Sharpened is the best trait in ALL situation, unless all you do is heal or block in PVE.

It's crazy... All the test I have done to try to convince myself that my Defending Maelstrom Maul or my Nirnhoned Maelstrom Battleaxe was viable...

(Well it's viable.. but in either way I lose a decent amount of DPS: on average 8-12% compared to a crafted Sharpened 2H of choice)

Sharpened is crazy OP.. and I seriously hope that either
A) other traits are bump up
Nerf Sharpened (Would probably require heavy armor and a bunch of other stuff to be re-evaluate also)

It should be that most trait are "good choice" and situational based on build. Right now, it isn't.
It doesn't make any sens to run with non-sharpened gear if you intent to kill stuff.

Anyone thinking otherwise is unfortunately mis-informed...
Check this out, next time you reset your CP: How much CP do you need to increase your penetration as much as Sharpened does.

Also to anyone comparing sharpened vs Nirnhoned, make sure you you not only test versus small mob but also mini-boss or bosses. Mini-Bosses/Bosses have higher Resistance than small mob, therefore sharpened will shine even more right there.

Wing

remember that sharpened effects dps slightly better but nirn effects self heals and shields better.

one of the reasons sharpened is the end all be all for most is they glass cannon and expect others to heal or what not, precise and nirnhoned benefit multiple aspects of your character as well as damage, sharpened effects ONLY damage.

code65536

Wing wrote: »

remember that sharpened effects dps slightly better but nirn effects self heals and shields better.

one of the reasons sharpened is the end all be all for most is they glass cannon and expect others to heal or what not, precise and nirnhoned benefit multiple aspects of your character as well as damage, sharpened effects ONLY damage.

Many forms of self-heals are a percentage of damage done (Sweeps, Strife, Embers, and Bloodthirst), so sharpened will help with those types of heals.

Shield scale off of max magicka and is not affected by spell damage.

Also, the best defense is a good offense. The faster something dies, the less opportunity they have to damage you.

UltimaJoe777

code65536 wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

remember that sharpened effects dps slightly better but nirn effects self heals and shields better.

one of the reasons sharpened is the end all be all for most is they glass cannon and expect others to heal or what not, precise and nirnhoned benefit multiple aspects of your character as well as damage, sharpened effects ONLY damage.

Many forms of self-heals are a percentage of damage done (Sweeps, Strife, Embers, and Bloodthirst), so sharpened will help with those types of heals.

Shield scale off of max magicka and is not affected by spell damage.

Also, the best defense is a good offense. The faster something dies, the less opportunity they have to damage you.

Unless they kill you first. And if a pure DPS build goes up against a boss odds are they're toast. Kill or be killed is a seriously reckless tactic when the enemy has 3mil Health...

Sharpened aids DPS
Nirnhoned aids DPS and Healing
Precise aids DPS and Healing by increasing the chance to crit

So what if Sharpened tends to do more? If you ARE pure DPS then by all means Penetrate to your heart's content! Same situation but wanna do Nirnhoned? That's perfectly fine too! Honestly if Sharpened is considered the only true option for competitive metaplay then chances are it will get nerfed later on so those that rely purely on Sharpened when it DOES get nerfed will be the first to complain about the nerf lol

P.S. If Sharpened gets nerfed Defending will too.

code65536

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

remember that sharpened effects dps slightly better but nirn effects self heals and shields better.

one of the reasons sharpened is the end all be all for most is they glass cannon and expect others to heal or what not, precise and nirnhoned benefit multiple aspects of your character as well as damage, sharpened effects ONLY damage.

Many forms of self-heals are a percentage of damage done (Sweeps, Strife, Embers, and Bloodthirst), so sharpened will help with those types of heals.

Shield scale off of max magicka and is not affected by spell damage.

Also, the best defense is a good offense. The faster something dies, the less opportunity they have to damage you.

Unless they kill you first. And if a pure DPS build goes up against a boss odds are they're toast. Kill or be killed is a seriously reckless tactic when the enemy has 3mil Health...

Sharpened aids DPS
Nirnhoned aids DPS and Healing
Precise aids DPS and Healing by increasing the chance to crit

So what if Sharpened tends to do more? If you ARE pure DPS then by all means Penetrate to your heart's content! Same situation but wanna do Nirnhoned? That's perfectly fine too! Honestly if Sharpened is considered the only true option for competitive metaplay then chances are it will get nerfed later on so those that rely purely on Sharpened when it DOES get nerfed will be the first to complain about the nerf lol

P.S. If Sharpened gets nerfed Defending will too.

There are basically 3 types of PvE content in this game:

1. Group PvE: dungeons and trials, where the job of the DD is to do DPS, and it's the job of the healer to heal; a DD might self-heal (many forms of which are a percent of damage done) or do a bit of off-healing, but their main job is to DPS
2. Normal PvE: zone questing, delves, etc., catered to the casual crowd where it doesn't matter what trait or what gear you have
3. vMA

The only case, in PvE at least, where your argument makes sense is in vMA. And more DPS is what makes vMA easier. You're not going to need much healing if you can kill Maxus within one teleport, if you can burn the Argonian behemoth before a 2nd set of minders spawn, if you can kill the warding stones in the Valkyn Tephra fight fast enough that no adds spawn at all, etc. And those Crematorial guards are very much kill-or-be-killed. I used to cast lots of heals and shields in vMA. Now I don't. Because the best defense really is a good offense.

If given a choice (though RNG drops mean that some don't have such a choice), I would never run Nirnhoned over Sharpened in vMA. Or in group PvE. Or anywhere in PvE, for that matter.

UltimaJoe777

code65536 wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

remember that sharpened effects dps slightly better but nirn effects self heals and shields better.

one of the reasons sharpened is the end all be all for most is they glass cannon and expect others to heal or what not, precise and nirnhoned benefit multiple aspects of your character as well as damage, sharpened effects ONLY damage.

Many forms of self-heals are a percentage of damage done (Sweeps, Strife, Embers, and Bloodthirst), so sharpened will help with those types of heals.

Shield scale off of max magicka and is not affected by spell damage.

Also, the best defense is a good offense. The faster something dies, the less opportunity they have to damage you.

Unless they kill you first. And if a pure DPS build goes up against a boss odds are they're toast. Kill or be killed is a seriously reckless tactic when the enemy has 3mil Health...

Sharpened aids DPS
Nirnhoned aids DPS and Healing
Precise aids DPS and Healing by increasing the chance to crit

So what if Sharpened tends to do more? If you ARE pure DPS then by all means Penetrate to your heart's content! Same situation but wanna do Nirnhoned? That's perfectly fine too! Honestly if Sharpened is considered the only true option for competitive metaplay then chances are it will get nerfed later on so those that rely purely on Sharpened when it DOES get nerfed will be the first to complain about the nerf lol

P.S. If Sharpened gets nerfed Defending will too.

There are basically 3 types of PvE content in this game:

1. Group PvE: dungeons and trials, where the job of the DD is to do DPS, and it's the job of the healer to heal; a DD might self-heal (many forms of which are a percent of damage done) or do a bit of off-healing, but their main job is to DPS
2. Normal PvE: zone questing, delves, etc., catered to the casual crowd where it doesn't matter what trait or what gear you have
3. vMA

The only case, in PvE at least, where your argument makes sense is in vMA. And more DPS is what makes vMA easier. You're not going to need much healing if you can kill Maxus within one teleport, if you can burn the Argonian behemoth before a 2nd set of shielders spawn, if you can kill the warding stones in the Valkyn Tephra fight fast enough that no adds spawn at all, and those Crematorial guards are very much kill-or-be-killed.

If given a choice (though RNG drops mean that some don't have such a choice), I would never run Nirnhoned over Sharpened in vMA. Or in group PvE. Or anywhere in PvE, for that matter.

Granted MA does indeed require you kill or be killed since you have no one to support you, except pets and power-ups. If your build is a self-sustain DPS combo then sure Sharpened will tend to have more merit, if the extra Penetration applies. I'd like to think that Zenimax wouldn't stockpile enemy resistances THAT much on the majority of the enemies though, but they probably do, thus making DPS builds tend to want to run Sharpened and thus creating topics like this questioning the viability of Nirnhoned and Precise in comparison.

code65536

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

remember that sharpened effects dps slightly better but nirn effects self heals and shields better.

one of the reasons sharpened is the end all be all for most is they glass cannon and expect others to heal or what not, precise and nirnhoned benefit multiple aspects of your character as well as damage, sharpened effects ONLY damage.

Many forms of self-heals are a percentage of damage done (Sweeps, Strife, Embers, and Bloodthirst), so sharpened will help with those types of heals.

Shield scale off of max magicka and is not affected by spell damage.

Also, the best defense is a good offense. The faster something dies, the less opportunity they have to damage you.

Unless they kill you first. And if a pure DPS build goes up against a boss odds are they're toast. Kill or be killed is a seriously reckless tactic when the enemy has 3mil Health...

Sharpened aids DPS
Nirnhoned aids DPS and Healing
Precise aids DPS and Healing by increasing the chance to crit

So what if Sharpened tends to do more? If you ARE pure DPS then by all means Penetrate to your heart's content! Same situation but wanna do Nirnhoned? That's perfectly fine too! Honestly if Sharpened is considered the only true option for competitive metaplay then chances are it will get nerfed later on so those that rely purely on Sharpened when it DOES get nerfed will be the first to complain about the nerf lol

P.S. If Sharpened gets nerfed Defending will too.

There are basically 3 types of PvE content in this game:

1. Group PvE: dungeons and trials, where the job of the DD is to do DPS, and it's the job of the healer to heal; a DD might self-heal (many forms of which are a percent of damage done) or do a bit of off-healing, but their main job is to DPS
2. Normal PvE: zone questing, delves, etc., catered to the casual crowd where it doesn't matter what trait or what gear you have
3. vMA

The only case, in PvE at least, where your argument makes sense is in vMA. And more DPS is what makes vMA easier. You're not going to need much healing if you can kill Maxus within one teleport, if you can burn the Argonian behemoth before a 2nd set of shielders spawn, if you can kill the warding stones in the Valkyn Tephra fight fast enough that no adds spawn at all, and those Crematorial guards are very much kill-or-be-killed.

If given a choice (though RNG drops mean that some don't have such a choice), I would never run Nirnhoned over Sharpened in vMA. Or in group PvE. Or anywhere in PvE, for that matter.

Granted MA does indeed require you kill or be killed since you have no one to support you, except pets and power-ups. If your build is a self-sustain DPS combo then sure Sharpened will tend to have more merit, if the extra Penetration applies. I'd like to think that Zenimax wouldn't stockpile enemy resistances THAT much on the majority of the enemies though, but they probably do, thus making DPS builds tend to want to run Sharpened and thus creating topics like this questioning the viability of Nirnhoned and Precise in comparison.

Enemies in vMA have enough resistance that you're not overpenetrating even with Sharpened, Concentration, Major Breach, etc. And yes, Sharpened is BiS in vMA. And in dungeons, trials and anywhere with enough difficulty that things like gear and traits actually matter.

Now, whether or not Sharpened is balanced is a different matter, and I've been saying, repeatedly, that Sharpened is far too powerful and that it renders all other traits useless for anyone looking to do damage. I've been saying this ever since the trait unbalancingrebalancing dropped on the PTS. And the response that Wrobel gave to these concerns was exactly the same kind of out-of-touch-with-reality justification that you gave: in his exact words, Sharpened was "situational"--the same word that you used to describe it. Yes, Sharpened is best only if you care about DPS. But guess what? That's what every DD cares about (and also what every DD should be caring about).

I would love to see traits like Nirnhoned and Precise be made competitive with Sharpened. But that's an orthogonal issue--as long as the traits are what they are right now, Sharpened wins by such an obscenely wide margin that it is the trait to get, and all other traits are the ones that are really "situational".

UltimaJoe777

code65536 wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

remember that sharpened effects dps slightly better but nirn effects self heals and shields better.

one of the reasons sharpened is the end all be all for most is they glass cannon and expect others to heal or what not, precise and nirnhoned benefit multiple aspects of your character as well as damage, sharpened effects ONLY damage.

Many forms of self-heals are a percentage of damage done (Sweeps, Strife, Embers, and Bloodthirst), so sharpened will help with those types of heals.

Shield scale off of max magicka and is not affected by spell damage.

Also, the best defense is a good offense. The faster something dies, the less opportunity they have to damage you.

Unless they kill you first. And if a pure DPS build goes up against a boss odds are they're toast. Kill or be killed is a seriously reckless tactic when the enemy has 3mil Health...

Sharpened aids DPS
Nirnhoned aids DPS and Healing
Precise aids DPS and Healing by increasing the chance to crit

So what if Sharpened tends to do more? If you ARE pure DPS then by all means Penetrate to your heart's content! Same situation but wanna do Nirnhoned? That's perfectly fine too! Honestly if Sharpened is considered the only true option for competitive metaplay then chances are it will get nerfed later on so those that rely purely on Sharpened when it DOES get nerfed will be the first to complain about the nerf lol

P.S. If Sharpened gets nerfed Defending will too.

There are basically 3 types of PvE content in this game:

1. Group PvE: dungeons and trials, where the job of the DD is to do DPS, and it's the job of the healer to heal; a DD might self-heal (many forms of which are a percent of damage done) or do a bit of off-healing, but their main job is to DPS
2. Normal PvE: zone questing, delves, etc., catered to the casual crowd where it doesn't matter what trait or what gear you have
3. vMA

The only case, in PvE at least, where your argument makes sense is in vMA. And more DPS is what makes vMA easier. You're not going to need much healing if you can kill Maxus within one teleport, if you can burn the Argonian behemoth before a 2nd set of shielders spawn, if you can kill the warding stones in the Valkyn Tephra fight fast enough that no adds spawn at all, and those Crematorial guards are very much kill-or-be-killed.

If given a choice (though RNG drops mean that some don't have such a choice), I would never run Nirnhoned over Sharpened in vMA. Or in group PvE. Or anywhere in PvE, for that matter.

Granted MA does indeed require you kill or be killed since you have no one to support you, except pets and power-ups. If your build is a self-sustain DPS combo then sure Sharpened will tend to have more merit, if the extra Penetration applies. I'd like to think that Zenimax wouldn't stockpile enemy resistances THAT much on the majority of the enemies though, but they probably do, thus making DPS builds tend to want to run Sharpened and thus creating topics like this questioning the viability of Nirnhoned and Precise in comparison.

Enemies in vMA have enough resistance that you're not overpenetrating even with Sharpened, Concentration, Major Breach, etc. And yes, Sharpened is BiS in vMA. And in dungeons, trials and anywhere with enough difficulty that things like gear and traits actually matter.

Now, whether or not Sharpened is balanced is a different matter, and I've been saying, repeatedly, that Sharpened is far too powerful and that it renders all other traits useless for anyone looking to do damage. I've been saying this ever since the trait unbalancingrebalancing dropped on the PTS. And the response that Wrobel gave to these concerns was exactly the same kind of out-of-touch-with-reality justification that you gave: in his exact words, Sharpened was "situational"--the same word that you used to describe it. Yes, Sharpened is best only if you care about DPS. But guess what? That's what every DD cares about (and also what every DD should be caring about).

I would love to see traits like Nirnhoned and Precise be made competitive with Sharpened. But that's an orthogonal issue--as long as the traits are what they are right now, Sharpened wins by such an obscenely wide margin that it is the trait to get, and all other traits are the ones that are really "situational".

You speak as though EVERY DD build makes absolutely no use of Nirnhoned and Precise. But then again, that's the meta for ya. We must also take into account Stamina builds' reliance on Rally and/or Vigor though.

Jaronking

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

remember that sharpened effects dps slightly better but nirn effects self heals and shields better.

one of the reasons sharpened is the end all be all for most is they glass cannon and expect others to heal or what not, precise and nirnhoned benefit multiple aspects of your character as well as damage, sharpened effects ONLY damage.

Many forms of self-heals are a percentage of damage done (Sweeps, Strife, Embers, and Bloodthirst), so sharpened will help with those types of heals.

Shield scale off of max magicka and is not affected by spell damage.

Also, the best defense is a good offense. The faster something dies, the less opportunity they have to damage you.

Unless they kill you first. And if a pure DPS build goes up against a boss odds are they're toast. Kill or be killed is a seriously reckless tactic when the enemy has 3mil Health...

Sharpened aids DPS
Nirnhoned aids DPS and Healing
Precise aids DPS and Healing by increasing the chance to crit

So what if Sharpened tends to do more? If you ARE pure DPS then by all means Penetrate to your heart's content! Same situation but wanna do Nirnhoned? That's perfectly fine too! Honestly if Sharpened is considered the only true option for competitive metaplay then chances are it will get nerfed later on so those that rely purely on Sharpened when it DOES get nerfed will be the first to complain about the nerf lol

P.S. If Sharpened gets nerfed Defending will too.

There are basically 3 types of PvE content in this game:

1. Group PvE: dungeons and trials, where the job of the DD is to do DPS, and it's the job of the healer to heal; a DD might self-heal (many forms of which are a percent of damage done) or do a bit of off-healing, but their main job is to DPS
2. Normal PvE: zone questing, delves, etc., catered to the casual crowd where it doesn't matter what trait or what gear you have
3. vMA

The only case, in PvE at least, where your argument makes sense is in vMA. And more DPS is what makes vMA easier. You're not going to need much healing if you can kill Maxus within one teleport, if you can burn the Argonian behemoth before a 2nd set of shielders spawn, if you can kill the warding stones in the Valkyn Tephra fight fast enough that no adds spawn at all, and those Crematorial guards are very much kill-or-be-killed.

If given a choice (though RNG drops mean that some don't have such a choice), I would never run Nirnhoned over Sharpened in vMA. Or in group PvE. Or anywhere in PvE, for that matter.

Granted MA does indeed require you kill or be killed since you have no one to support you, except pets and power-ups. If your build is a self-sustain DPS combo then sure Sharpened will tend to have more merit, if the extra Penetration applies. I'd like to think that Zenimax wouldn't stockpile enemy resistances THAT much on the majority of the enemies though, but they probably do, thus making DPS builds tend to want to run Sharpened and thus creating topics like this questioning the viability of Nirnhoned and Precise in comparison.

Enemies in vMA have enough resistance that you're not overpenetrating even with Sharpened, Concentration, Major Breach, etc. And yes, Sharpened is BiS in vMA. And in dungeons, trials and anywhere with enough difficulty that things like gear and traits actually matter.

Now, whether or not Sharpened is balanced is a different matter, and I've been saying, repeatedly, that Sharpened is far too powerful and that it renders all other traits useless for anyone looking to do damage. I've been saying this ever since the trait unbalancingrebalancing dropped on the PTS. And the response that Wrobel gave to these concerns was exactly the same kind of out-of-touch-with-reality justification that you gave: in his exact words, Sharpened was "situational"--the same word that you used to describe it. Yes, Sharpened is best only if you care about DPS. But guess what? That's what every DD cares about (and also what every DD should be caring about).

I would love to see traits like Nirnhoned and Precise be made competitive with Sharpened. But that's an orthogonal issue--as long as the traits are what they are right now, Sharpened wins by such an obscenely wide margin that it is the trait to get, and all other traits are the ones that are really "situational".

You speak as though EVERY DD build makes absolutely no use of Nirnhoned and Precise. But then again, that's the meta for ya. We must also take into account Stamina builds' reliance on Rally and/or Vigor though.

If your running a vet trials you shouldn't be healing that's why you have healers

UltimaJoe777

Jaronking wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

remember that sharpened effects dps slightly better but nirn effects self heals and shields better.

one of the reasons sharpened is the end all be all for most is they glass cannon and expect others to heal or what not, precise and nirnhoned benefit multiple aspects of your character as well as damage, sharpened effects ONLY damage.

Many forms of self-heals are a percentage of damage done (Sweeps, Strife, Embers, and Bloodthirst), so sharpened will help with those types of heals.

Shield scale off of max magicka and is not affected by spell damage.

Also, the best defense is a good offense. The faster something dies, the less opportunity they have to damage you.

Unless they kill you first. And if a pure DPS build goes up against a boss odds are they're toast. Kill or be killed is a seriously reckless tactic when the enemy has 3mil Health...

Sharpened aids DPS
Nirnhoned aids DPS and Healing
Precise aids DPS and Healing by increasing the chance to crit

So what if Sharpened tends to do more? If you ARE pure DPS then by all means Penetrate to your heart's content! Same situation but wanna do Nirnhoned? That's perfectly fine too! Honestly if Sharpened is considered the only true option for competitive metaplay then chances are it will get nerfed later on so those that rely purely on Sharpened when it DOES get nerfed will be the first to complain about the nerf lol

P.S. If Sharpened gets nerfed Defending will too.

There are basically 3 types of PvE content in this game:

1. Group PvE: dungeons and trials, where the job of the DD is to do DPS, and it's the job of the healer to heal; a DD might self-heal (many forms of which are a percent of damage done) or do a bit of off-healing, but their main job is to DPS
2. Normal PvE: zone questing, delves, etc., catered to the casual crowd where it doesn't matter what trait or what gear you have
3. vMA

The only case, in PvE at least, where your argument makes sense is in vMA. And more DPS is what makes vMA easier. You're not going to need much healing if you can kill Maxus within one teleport, if you can burn the Argonian behemoth before a 2nd set of shielders spawn, if you can kill the warding stones in the Valkyn Tephra fight fast enough that no adds spawn at all, and those Crematorial guards are very much kill-or-be-killed.

If given a choice (though RNG drops mean that some don't have such a choice), I would never run Nirnhoned over Sharpened in vMA. Or in group PvE. Or anywhere in PvE, for that matter.

Granted MA does indeed require you kill or be killed since you have no one to support you, except pets and power-ups. If your build is a self-sustain DPS combo then sure Sharpened will tend to have more merit, if the extra Penetration applies. I'd like to think that Zenimax wouldn't stockpile enemy resistances THAT much on the majority of the enemies though, but they probably do, thus making DPS builds tend to want to run Sharpened and thus creating topics like this questioning the viability of Nirnhoned and Precise in comparison.

Enemies in vMA have enough resistance that you're not overpenetrating even with Sharpened, Concentration, Major Breach, etc. And yes, Sharpened is BiS in vMA. And in dungeons, trials and anywhere with enough difficulty that things like gear and traits actually matter.

Now, whether or not Sharpened is balanced is a different matter, and I've been saying, repeatedly, that Sharpened is far too powerful and that it renders all other traits useless for anyone looking to do damage. I've been saying this ever since the trait unbalancingrebalancing dropped on the PTS. And the response that Wrobel gave to these concerns was exactly the same kind of out-of-touch-with-reality justification that you gave: in his exact words, Sharpened was "situational"--the same word that you used to describe it. Yes, Sharpened is best only if you care about DPS. But guess what? That's what every DD cares about (and also what every DD should be caring about).

I would love to see traits like Nirnhoned and Precise be made competitive with Sharpened. But that's an orthogonal issue--as long as the traits are what they are right now, Sharpened wins by such an obscenely wide margin that it is the trait to get, and all other traits are the ones that are really "situational".

You speak as though EVERY DD build makes absolutely no use of Nirnhoned and Precise. But then again, that's the meta for ya. We must also take into account Stamina builds' reliance on Rally and/or Vigor though.

If your running a vet trials you shouldn't be healing that's why you have healers

We were discussing Maelstrom though, not trials. As far as trials go, Rally isn't JUST for healing...

code65536

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

You speak as though EVERY DD build makes absolutely no use of Nirnhoned and Precise.

Actually, I do use Nirnhoned, as the main hand of a DW setup. For one stamina character, it's because RNG never decided to drop Sharpened for me, and for another character, it's because he had Nirnhoned before Nirnhoned was nerfed into the ground, and for the sake of expediency, I recrafted only the off-hand to Sharpened.

It's not a bad trait. But it isn't the best. And if given a choice (e.g., if RNG didn't screw me over or if recrafting had no cost), I would not use it.

As for Precise, I have already stated in this thread that Precise can outperform Sharpened in an exceptionally well-coordinated trials group with very good War Horn uptime (thus favoring Precise) and a lot of group resistance debuffs (Alkosh, NMG, etc., thus disfavoring Sharpened). For the vast majority of situations, though, Sharpened is better.

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

But then again, that's the meta for ya.

The "meta" isn't a whim of fad or fashion. It's what is most effective and efficient. There is merit and good reason behind something being the "meta".

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

As far as trials go, Rally isn't JUST for healing...

Er, people shouldn't be using a 2H in competitive endgame PvE. But laying that aside, why would I want to sacrifice 5% damage so that I could get 2-3% more healing, if, as you say, I'm using it for the Major Brutality buff and not "JUST for healing"?

UltimaJoe777

code65536 wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

You speak as though EVERY DD build makes absolutely no use of Nirnhoned and Precise.

Actually, I do use Nirnhoned, as the main hand of a DW setup. For one stamina character, it's because RNG never decided to drop Sharpened for me, and for another character, it's because he had Nirnhoned before Nirnhoned was nerfed into the ground, and for the sake of expediency, I recrafted only the off-hand to Sharpened.

It's not a bad trait. But it isn't the best. And if given a choice (e.g., if RNG didn't screw me over or if recrafting had no cost), I would not use it.

As for Precise, I have already stated in this thread that Precise can outperform Sharpened in an exceptionally well-coordinated trials group with very good War Horn uptime (thus favoring Precise) and a lot of group resistance debuffs (Alkosh, NMG, etc., thus disfavoring Sharpened). For the vast majority of situations, though, Sharpened is better.

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

But then again, that's the meta for ya.

The "meta" isn't a whim of fad or fashion. It's what is most effective and efficient. There is merit and good reason behind something being the "meta".

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

As far as trials go, Rally isn't JUST for healing...

Er, people shouldn't be using a 2H in competitive endgame PvE. But laying that aside, why would I want to sacrifice 5% damage so that I could get 2-3% more healing, if, as you say, I'm using it for the Major Brutality buff and not "JUST for healing"?

The meta is just competitive to a fault, that's all. What they say and do is not always best. As for your 2h comment, yeah I think we're done here. The whole meta vs. non-meta conversation is like playing pong with no possible way for either person to win or lose, getting nowhere.

Now don't get me wrong I'm the Dual Wield type by preference myself but I see no reason why 2h cannot be competitive.

code65536

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

The meta is just competitive to a fault, that's all.

LOL. What in bloody blazes does that even mean?

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

What they say and do is not always best.

Actually, it is, a priori. Because if it wasn't, then it wouldn't be the "meta". Hell, let's drop that stupid word--I have no idea why people use it (the etymology is that it's an acronym of "most effective tactic available", though most people confuse it with the actual word). I much rather prefer "optimal". Something either is or isn't optimal. Nor is optimality static: If something better comes along, then that becomes the new optimal--it changes as the game's itemization and balance changes and as the content requirement changes.

And going back to your comment about competitiveness, you need to be optimized if you want to play competitively. But the reverse is not true: just because someone wants to be optimized doesn't mean that they are competitive. I want to be optimized because, well, that's one of the classic carrots of a MMO, isn't it? You want to make your character stronger, through leveling, gearing, etc. Most people want their character to have the best stats, even if they have absolutely no interest in competitive play. I don't play competitively. I don't care about leaderboards beyond getting loot from the weeklies. But I want to be optimized because, even though I don't care what score I get at the end, I do want to do what I can to make a run go smoothly, and because, for most people, character progression is one of the central driving forces of a MMO.

This thread is very simple: Is Nirnhoned worth it as a weapon trait. We're not talking about strategies or anything complicated or multi-faceted. This is a simple yes-or-no question with a simple answer that comes from the math. I have no idea why you seem so determined on turning this straightforward question and answer into something controversial: it is as ridiculous as arguing that 2+2 might not equal 4.

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Now don't get me wrong I'm the Dual Wield type by preference myself but I see no reason why 2h cannot be competitive.

It can be. If changes are made to revamp the efficacy of the 2H line. But in its current state, it is a very poor choice of weapon in PvE.

UltimaJoe777

code65536 wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

The meta is just competitive to a fault, that's all.

LOL. What in bloody blazes does that even mean?

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

What they say and do is not always best.

Actually, it is, a priori. Because if it wasn't, then it wouldn't be the "meta". Hell, let's drop that stupid word--I have no idea why people use it (the etymology is that it's an acronym of "most effective tactic available", though most people confuse it with the actual word). I much rather prefer "optimal". Something either is or isn't optimal. Nor is optimality static: If something better comes along, then that becomes the new optimal--it changes as the game's itemization and balance changes and as the content requirement changes.

And going back to your comment about competitiveness, you need to be optimized if you want to play competitively. But the reverse is not true: just because someone wants to be optimized doesn't mean that they are competitive. I want to be optimized because, well, that's one of the classic carrots of a MMO, isn't it? You want to make your character stronger, through leveling, gearing, etc. Most people want their character to have the best stats, even if they have absolutely no interest in competitive play. I don't play competitively. I don't care about leaderboards beyond getting loot from the weeklies. But I want to be optimized because, even though I don't care what score I get at the end, I do want to do what I can to make a run go smoothly, and because, for most people, character progression is one of the central driving forces of a MMO.

This thread is very simple: Is Nirnhoned worth it as a weapon trait. We're not talking about strategies or anything complicated or multi-faceted. This is a simple yes-or-no question with a simple answer that comes from the math. I have no idea why you seem so determined on turning this straightforward question and answer into something controversial: it is as ridiculous as arguing that 2+2 might not equal 4.

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Now don't get me wrong I'm the Dual Wield type by preference myself but I see no reason why 2h cannot be competitive.

It can be. If changes are made to revamp the efficacy of the 2H line. But in its current state, it is a very poor choice of weapon in PvE.

I never, and I do mean NEVER, follow the meta. I make my own builds my own way, and that works BEST for ME. The metagame is basically where a select group of people try to find the most competitive builds and use them. The meta is the difference between individuality and/or originality and those that wish to just use what is "mathematically best". You're right though, optimal builds are not the meta, they are what suits the player able to use it to its fullest. You're also right that being optimal rather than the meta can make you just as competitive. However, competition is not a straight line one HAS to follow to be that way. True competition comes from having the skills to pull off what they work with. People are constantly finding new ways to be competitive. Why? Because they don't obey what is or isn't competitive based on the word of others. I applaud those people for what it's worth.

Yes the thread is simple. However, last I checked this game wasn't rocket science and thus while numbers DO have merit they are not the alpha and omega of builds. Personally, I detest the idea of sorting builds into tiers based on mathematics and competitiveness but I get why people do it all the same.

As for what I meant about the meta being competitive to a fault it's simply this: If the power creep continues to creep along unchecked the meta will eventually ruin this game. Zenimax is NOT taking proper measures for defense to keep up. One might argue that at present this is untrue but give it some time...

SwaminoNowlino

Is 2>3? No. Because math.

Is Red>Yellow? This is a matter of opinion and thus open to interpretation.

The OP asked a simple question, which can be answered succinctly with math. Any attempts to obfuscate with personal opinion or resentment of "meta" is essentially identical to arguing that 2 is indeed greater than 3 because you feel like it.

So Op, unless you are in the top 1% of the top 1% of raiding groups, sharpened>precise>nirnhoned all other things equal.

Now if you want to run nirnhoned VMA weapons because you haven't been blessed by RNGesus you may be able to make it work by combining other sets, but your DD potential will be less than the same setup with sharpened. For most raiding guilds, unless you're doing VMoL hardmode, I doubt many people will care if you're not running sharpened. But it will make things harder on your group all else equal. It will take things fractionally longer to die and thus leave your group open to more risk.

If you're just doing dungeons, then you can do enough damage to clear any of the dungeons with nirnhoned. Again the risk factor of things taking a bit longer to kill, but most groups won't even notice.

Further note, this is only current as of Update 11 SotH. This may change in update 12, so I wouldn't throw away any of those sets that are not perfectly traited.

UltimaJoe777

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Is 2>3? No. Because math.

Is Red>Yellow? This is a matter of opinion and thus open to interpretation.

The OP asked a simple question, which can be answered succinctly with math. Any attempts to obfuscate with personal opinion or resentment of "meta" is essentially identical to arguing that 2 is indeed greater than 3 because you feel like it.

So Op, unless you are in the top 1% of the top 1% of raiding groups, sharpened>precise>nirnhoned all other things equal.

Now if you want to run nirnhoned VMA weapons because you haven't been blessed by RNGesus you may be able to make it work by combining other sets, but your DD potential will be less than the same setup with sharpened. For most raiding guilds, unless you're doing VMoL hardmode, I doubt many people will care if you're not running sharpened. But it will make things harder on your group all else equal. It will take things fractionally longer to die and thus leave your group open to more risk.

If you're just doing dungeons, then you can do enough damage to clear any of the dungeons with nirnhoned. Again the risk factor of things taking a bit longer to kill, but most groups won't even notice.

Further note, this is only current as of Update 11 SotH. This may change in update 12, so I wouldn't throw away any of those sets that are not perfectly traited.

It's funny you say math decides all yet consider something luck-based greater than a solid number. But everyone is entitled to their opinions, and no one will tell you you are right or wrong for it. However, factual evidence that Sharpened is superior than Nirnhoned is still not solid. Math is math, but math isn't everything despite popular belief.

SwaminoNowlino

@Asayre some low-hanging fruit for you

Oreyn_Bearclaw

k_hartley4349b16_ESO wrote: »

That is a big difference though I can't see how sharpened could be better maybe I will try and find that thread. OK thank you guys for responding.

Sharpened is absolutely better. It is better than everything, all the time, everywhere. No reason to run any other trait in this game anymore if you are trying to do damage.

@code65536

On paper, you can make an argument for precise. In reality, I dont think it plays out that way. You just cant keep enough debuffs up enough of the time to ever justify it in a modern trial fight. My VMA precise Inferno is on the shelf because I always pull more with a sharpened crafted set. On stam, even with all the Debuffs out there, the best DPS are still going double sharpened. This is an area where theory crafting and the real world butt heads.

Edit: FYI, not disagreeing with anything you wrote. Your comments about @Wrobel Comments are spot on. Sharpened is situationally best if by situationally, you mean everywhere all the damn time for a DPS.

acw37162

There are many places to find the information your looking for. If your a numbers guys search for posts by @Gilliamtherogue and @Nifty2g they have done a lot of the math.

If your not a numbers guy and looking for a TLDR version or just easy guidelines.

Generic solo play and basic PUG for dungeons;

Sharpened > Percise > Nirn

Coordinated group dungeons and trial where groups are fitted with BIS in end game gear where one DPS has night mothers gaze, thanks carry tavas and roar are war horns consistently, someone has alkosh and maybe an old CP 140 version of Sunderflame;

Precise > Sharpened > Nirn

Stay sheet warrior highest possible weapon and spell number hiding in Cyrodil with all alliance buffs a ability bar set up in almost unusable fashion o create a cool but almost useless number;

Nirn

dday3six

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Is 2>3? No. Because math.

Is Red>Yellow? This is a matter of opinion and thus open to interpretation.

The OP asked a simple question, which can be answered succinctly with math. Any attempts to obfuscate with personal opinion or resentment of "meta" is essentially identical to arguing that 2 is indeed greater than 3 because you feel like it.

So Op, unless you are in the top 1% of the top 1% of raiding groups, sharpened>precise>nirnhoned all other things equal.

Now if you want to run nirnhoned VMA weapons because you haven't been blessed by RNGesus you may be able to make it work by combining other sets, but your DD potential will be less than the same setup with sharpened. For most raiding guilds, unless you're doing VMoL hardmode, I doubt many people will care if you're not running sharpened. But it will make things harder on your group all else equal. It will take things fractionally longer to die and thus leave your group open to more risk.

If you're just doing dungeons, then you can do enough damage to clear any of the dungeons with nirnhoned. Again the risk factor of things taking a bit longer to kill, but most groups won't even notice.

Further note, this is only current as of Update 11 SotH. This may change in update 12, so I wouldn't throw away any of those sets that are not perfectly traited.

It's funny you say math decides all yet consider something luck-based greater than a solid number. But everyone is entitled to their opinions, and no one will tell you you are right or wrong for it. However, factual evidence that Sharpened is superior than Nirnhoned is still not solid. Math is math, but math isn't everything despite popular belief.

You've got to be joking...

Sorry to say, but facts trump your feelings 10 times out of 10.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

acw37162 wrote: »

There are many places to find the information your looking for. If your a numbers guys search for posts by @Gilliamtherogue and @Nifty2g they have done a lot of the math.

If your not a numbers guy and looking for a TLDR version or just easy guidelines.

Generic solo play and basic PUG for dungeons;

Sharpened > Percise > Nirn

Coordinated group dungeons and trial where groups are fitted with BIS in end game gear where one DPS has night mothers gaze, thanks carry tavas and roar are war horns consistently, someone has alkosh and maybe an old CP 140 version of Sunderflame;

Precise > Sharpened > Nirn

Stay sheet warrior highest possible weapon and spell number hiding in Cyrodil with all alliance buffs a ability bar set up in almost unusable fashion o create a cool but almost useless number;

Nirn

I dont believe the middle part to be true any longer (it was for a long time). You cant keep enough Debuffs up enough of the time to justify precise. The best DPS in the best raids still go sharpened if they can, it's more DPS in the real world. Sometimes math and real life butt heads. You can create the scenario on paper that suggests Precise>sharpened, but it doesnt hold up in an actual raid for 6-8 minute fights.

As for nirn, you are not wrong. If you are trying to get the best "stats" then yes, nirn is the answer. That being said, nirn is only going to hit harder if you are fighting someone with a shield up. Otherwise, sharp is better.

Nifty2g

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

acw37162 wrote: »

There are many places to find the information your looking for. If your a numbers guys search for posts by @Gilliamtherogue and @Nifty2g they have done a lot of the math.

If your not a numbers guy and looking for a TLDR version or just easy guidelines.

Generic solo play and basic PUG for dungeons;

Sharpened > Percise > Nirn

Coordinated group dungeons and trial where groups are fitted with BIS in end game gear where one DPS has night mothers gaze, thanks carry tavas and roar are war horns consistently, someone has alkosh and maybe an old CP 140 version of Sunderflame;

Precise > Sharpened > Nirn

Stay sheet warrior highest possible weapon and spell number hiding in Cyrodil with all alliance buffs a ability bar set up in almost unusable fashion o create a cool but almost useless number;

Nirn

I dont believe the middle part to be true any longer (it was for a long time). You cant keep enough Debuffs up enough of the time to justify precise. The best DPS in the best raids still go sharpened if they can, it's more DPS in the real world. Sometimes math and real life butt heads. You can create the scenario on paper that suggests Precise>sharpened, but it doesnt hold up in an actual raid for 6-8 minute fights.

As for nirn, you are not wrong. If you are trying to get the best "stats" then yes, nirn is the answer. That being said, nirn is only going to hit harder if you are fighting someone with a shield up. Otherwise, sharp is better.

That is right, its far too difficult to keep debuffs up to the point precise would outdo sharpened, I believe it works really well on paper but in practice far too many variables and RNG