What mysterious messages are Sorcerer abilities hiding ?

Armitas

On lotro the rez circle was a ring of rocks with numenorean written on them. If you have the books you can translate it and it basically said get gud. Was a hilarious little easter egg.

ArchMikem

I dont have the mentality nor energy to delve into debates, though id like to just inject a little 3rd party opinion to this.

Making a magical copy of something sounds an awful lot like Illusion Magic, which can be witnessed in-game during the Shad Astula questline. These Illusions take the form of beasts but are transparent with a bluish white glow. As far as i know, the sorcerer class does not have actual Illusion Spells, only Summoning. And in my view, when you summon something, youre summoning the actual thing from its local point of origin and returns to it when unsummoned or killed.

The reason some Daedra dont vanish from nirn when killed is due to them having travelled to nirn willingly via portal.

AtAfternoon

Cool thread, never noticed the text on the storm atronach.

Several of the sorcerers skills have made me scratch my head because I'm not completely sure what's actual happening when I cast them.

What do you do when you cast Dark Exchange? It says ”bargain with darkness”. What is that, a casual deal with Clavicus Vile?

ArchMikem

AtAfternoon wrote: »

Cool thread, never noticed the text on the storm atronach.

Several of the sorcerers skills have made me scratch my head because I'm not completely sure what's actual happening when I cast them.

What do you do when you cast Dark Exchange? It says ”bargain with darkness”. What is that, a casual deal with Clavicus Vile?

Law of exchange. You give up one thing to gain another.

Pinja

catalyst10e wrote: »

Pinja wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

Pinja wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

notimetocare wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

Has no one read "I was summoned by a mortal" ?(link for reference: http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/I_was_Summoned_by_a_Mortal ) Where else would the summoned creatures come from? Where did the idea of "temporary daedric copies" come from tho? The summon twilight ability will mention calling on azura to send you a twilight, but nothing i can find mentions making a copy of creatures. All in all tho, nice work tracking down and translating.

Yes, they are copies. You sacrifise some of your magicka, to summon a copy of a real Daedra.
This copy is unstable and only made of magicka. You can tell, because there is No Corpse, the Magicka just vanishes after the creature is dead.

An example for daedric conjuration in ESO would be Lady Malygda in the Imperial City. She conjures a bunch of real Spiderlings. Of course she is a higher Daedra, and conjuring so many at the same time is no problem for her. Daedric conjuring usually leaves red spheres, summoning blue/purple spheres.

A conjured creature, will leave a body because it is a real daedra, not just a copy.

danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO wrote: »

"Hey ladies. How about I buy you a drink? No? What if I were to tell you I speak fluent deadric?"

Oh yes please *-* Some Summerset Ale please.

Daedra are not like humans they do not leave behind their body upon death they go back to oblivion. To quote the page on Daedra "Although they can be defeated, they are considered immortal, as their soul or animus is sent back to Oblivion in the event that their body is destroyed. When a Daedra's physical form is destroyed, weapons and other items may be taken, but not their armor, as it is bound to Oblivion. After being killed, a Daedra's soul will wander Oblivion and eventually re-constitute its original form; this tortuous period can last centuries."

Furthermore, as I mentioned before the Tooltip actually says "Call on Azura to send a winged twilight to fight at your side." It specifically mentions azura sending you a winged twilight, and makes no mention of you creating one out of magic.
The tooltip on the familiar states: "Command the powers of Oblivion to send a Daedric familiar to fight at your side." This makes mention of you calling on oblivion to send a familiar, and again makes no mention of a copy.

The argument could be easily made that what happens to the "corpse" is it's sent back to oblivion as well since it was only kept around using magic. Once the creature is dead the spell breaks, which would be the only anchor for them since it's what brought them there to begin with.

I'm sorry.... I can't help you then.
It's more than obvious, that Sorcerer summons are merely magical husks. They are made of pure magicka and that you can also see when they die.

It's undeniable, that there is daedric summoning and daedric conjuring.
One makes you summon magical copies that vanish upon death and the other makes you conjure real Daedra and their body is physical and will stay upon death.

This is a fact and you can quote as much as you want, it won't change this fact. Sorry

I don't understand how you can be this dense. It says it in the tool tip. You can't get any more accurate then the description of the spell. THAT is undeniable. How can you claim something without any proof? And if you read he actual text I linked before "I was summoned by a mortal" it even describes a Dremora on guard duty who gets pulled into the realm when someone uses a conjuration spell. It's literally all right there in plain view in the game. What are you basing your info off of? a feeling you have?

You only need your eyes and some understanding.
Then you will be able to see the difference between these 2 things.

I just don't know, what else I can tell you.

You are wrong and catalyst is right. You are making fanfic like assumptions on the nature of magic when there is lore info there

No assumptions.
Some summons just vanish and some leave a body afterwards. It has always been this way and these 2 are different versions.

How can you even fight this ? That's just how it is O.o I really don't understand why you keep saying otherwise, while it's more than obvious.

No assumptions? Yet you have no proof to your claims. That's literally the definition of Assumption. But don't take my word for it... here's Oxford's Defition http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/assumption

What summon sticks around after you've killed them? The only thing I can think of that might be causing your confusion, is that you may be confusing all Daedra with summoned Daedra. As with the case of say.... A Daedra currently in Bruma. If you kill him, he falls dead and lays there for a time, allowing you to loot him. This Daedra wasn't brought to Nirn by magical means,(or at least a summoned magical means) they opened a portal and walked in. It's not the same as being summoned.

Conjuration spells, put a temporary bind on the creature in question and pull it unwillingly to Nirn. Upon death they are banished back to where they came from. This is how it has always worked going as far back as TES III: Morrowind. All in-game lore and references back this up. To deny it is to outright refuse the truth itself. Maybe its because you personally don't like the idea of pulling unwilling subject every time you summon one, or you like to think of them as your friend. But this here is the truth of the matter, indisputable proof from the people who made the games. The ONLY time I was able to find anything remotely referring to magical copies, was specifically the bound weapon spells of TES V: Skyrim, as they look to be made from magic, and are the only known spells to have done that.

You have never played an Elder scrolls game, that's the only explaination.
No, I do not mistake wild Daedra in the sewers or elsewhere as summoned Daedra.

But there are spells that summon a temporary unstable Daedra and ones that conjure a physical Daedra from Oblivion.
Come on, seriously. You can't be serious with all your posts

Yet another assumption based on no facts.

Yes you've caught me, I just like to hang out on forums of games I never play and argue lore with strangers. /sarcasm over

Are you at all serious? Show me. Prove what you're talking about. Lets see some evidence to your claim.

Well I've have you know that you both are wrong & right. Like did you guys forget your thorough conjuration lessons from Oblivion & Skyrim.
Dremora cannot take form in Nirn without a focus from the realm wither it a spell or a object.
If a dremora is bound to a plane via a spell it will disperse back to oblivion when the magic holding it expires.
In the case of objects such as Dark-Anchors the dremora souls are bound to the objects like a Prison allowing for their bodies to remain.
Sigal stones are the pinon/conduit to planar focuses used by mehrunes dagon, which is why after dispelling one in oblivion you'd 'banish all the deadra deposited from that portal.
Case with the failed ransack of bruma end of 3 era.
However the soul of a dremora can be rebound to an object by claiming its heart. Also keeping its form bound to either plane.
There are also cases of dremora in cold harbor that are unbound from there position of servitude to the dark lord that are banished immediately. This happens in "The Citidel Must Fall" quest to Valkynaz Seris when Lyranth usurps his position as keeper of the citidel. An alternative form of this binding can be seen with the quick reanimation of the Observer do to the strong focus of his position. Bound to cold harbor, banished in cold harbor, the cliffs of failure have been the sole position existence & thus not to unfamiliar to hes essence for his quick return. Similar to Durnehviir's quick recovery in the soul cairn as he also explains.
One Dremora known to be an exception to the rule is Herald Kixathi from the bangkori Mistress of the lake quest, who explains her exceptional stats as being somewhat of a self bound dremora, via some secret of Hermaeus mora, suggesting he & some of his followers can freely enter nirn without mortal assistance. Though he generally only seems to appear near shines of him or in the confines/conduits of his followers.
Similarly said its is also something to note that daedric lords seem to have to posses forms of there followers or sacrifices in order to take partial presence in Nirn if not by there shrines. The pre-oblivion crises Sheograth seemed to be an exception to this rule though it can not be certain what realm he was in during the mages guild quest. Said also, he was the only Daedric lord capable of maintaining a portal presence after Akatosh shut the path between Nirn & oblivion during/after the crisis. Suggesting that Jyggalag had subserviently deduced a way to gain a presence in nirn that only he & Hermaeus mora knew thanks to the tear in his existence.
All to be said though it does not seem as if a daedric lord can't actually take substantial presence in nirn unless enough of their essence has been leaked threw via conventional summoning methods & sacrifices. As you should know in the case of sacrifices it works the same way in which it does spells, were the souls attunement to mundus is used as an anchor points to help further dive oblivion aspects towards nirn.
Really the process can be compared to these forum threads, were these conjurations must maintain focus, stay casted, or suffer a slow return to oblivion.

This is all lovely information, thank you for your time. However, the argument I was having with OP was the idea that conjuration finds a way to pull or bind a dremora or other such creature from the plane of oblivion to Nirn (which you more or less cover the various ways that can happen) OP was stating the mage creates a copy of a dremora out of pure magic. (similar to the flaming familiar spell in TES V Skyrim) I used several in-game lore sources to state it's a known fact that when you summon (for example) a dremora, you are pulling one from oblivion. I even clarified they didnt specifically mean opening a portal and allowing them to appear. OP feels that the mage uses their own memory of what a Dremora looks and acts like, and using pure magic creates a copy.

Vangy wrote: »

Makes me a little sad I worked so hard to get the frost atro slayer achieve.... They were just poor harmless things forced to do someone else's bidding TT.TT

I wouldnt worry about it too much, all deaths in service to their lord is considered an honor, and furthermore, they didnt really die, they'll return to their plane and reform eventually.

newtinmpls wrote: »

Tyrion87 wrote: »

I think that Loremaster Lawrence Schick should express his opinion in this matter and decide who is right (if anyone) xD

O for heavens sakes it's in the lore of ES that there are always at least two or three probable explanations, and none will every really be confirmed.

catalyst10e wrote: »

Conjuration spells, put a temporary bind on the creature in question and pull it unwillingly to Nirn. Upon death they are banished back to where they came from.

And ... the devil is in the details.

I will buy that conjuration spells pull the creature in question and death or unsummoning sends it back.

This doesn't prohibit an ongoing relationship between a person (or more likely a family line) and any particular daedra.

For that matter, the group I play with all recognize that when a Daedroth is "summoned" but the monster helm, it is/they are "Dave" who is a friend, is curious about Tamriel, and is not subject to the normal limits of space and time. Makes things hilarious at time.

For the record I never stated it wasnt possible to summon the same creature over and over. In fact in TES V: Skyrim, you do just that when summoning an unbound dremora. The actual reform process mentions "it can take centuries" to reform, however that doesnt stop it from taking minutes, hours, or days. I'm all for the idea that you are summoning the same daedra over and over, as long as it's recognized it's a real daedra and not some sort of copy the helm is producing on it's own.

Dracane wrote: »

Lieblingsjunge wrote: »

Alter - Conjure - Shock. Alter means change, conjure means "affect by spell" or something & Shock can mean various things. Shock > Shock damage. A state of Shock(Circulatory shock or just.. a shock). Metaphoricially also used about someone who's shocked from e.g. observing something extraordinary or ooc.

I mean, without reading anything more into it, it seems to me that the words explain what a Sorc's mission in life is/should be. A Sorc changes the elements & magic to affect people or things with spells > leaving them in a state of shock. I'm putting my metaphors and literature education to good use here

Good one

@catalyst10e
Laughable. You will get your evidence in form of a video.
Even though all it takes, is you to enter the game and just see it yourself.

Been over a month, I still havn't seen this video btw.

Well that is another thing where you both are wrong & right. It's is common misconception that Atronachs are daedra. While OP was wrong for calling them that, they are somewhat magical copies though each one created is its own individual. As a matter Atronachs are more so Aedra then they are Daedra as they are aspects of the Star Orphan Mnemo-Li or the Mage. Unlike Daedra which most originate from chaotic creatia , all Atronachs are crafted via some magic from the natural elemental essences that coat nirn & other planes. Frostcrag Spire from the oblivion dlc, let players take part in the process by forging new Atronachs for their unbound service. While most summoned atronachs spells teach binding threw Daedric magic, the freedom of unbound atronachs is displayed in various places across ES. In Craglorn for example, the conjured air atronachs are original generations/copies of atronachs that were formed & insufficiently bound to wine up killing their creators. As an oblivion independent ramification the atronachs were not banished to any plane as a result, & can sustain themselves as long as they can find & absorb a sufficient source of magic. Which a number of them did at the Spell scar.
The Storm atronachs there can be used to display this concept as they all appear to have been formally bound via conventional daedric methods, now dispersed, freed by the death of their late conjurers.
As Displayed:

Unbound Shackles- No rune Inscription.

Red: Summoned Atro's arm bindings
Blue: Wandering Atro's arm bindings

- - - - - - - - -


Red: Summoned Atro's leg bindings
Blue: Wandering Atro's leg bindings

In this sense the conjured Atronachs originally depicted by OP are nothing more then magical congealments taking form in preconceived universal formations of magic. IE: Copies which can be modified in several derivations by the conjurer to create more powerful or manipulable forms before the structure becomes more unstable or unidentifiable mutant slave orphans.

Is it possible to get any sources on this? Everything I know of, and everything I can find with brief searches of my normal sources list Atronachs as daedra, with the exception of golem-atronachs such as a flesh atronach, or a stone atronach. Furthermore, while you're doing an excellent job of filling in certain details, you're overlooking my overall point when you're attempting to claim we are both right and wrong.

My overall point was In this game and in most cases of the main games, and in all cases of this game (excluding times when you actually build a flesh atro, such as in the shivering isles expansion of oblivion) when using a conjuration spell, you are pulling the actual creature from the plane of oblivion, putting a temporary bind on it, and having it serve you for its duration. But even to simplify it to JUST this game, the tooltip states "Call on Azura to send a twilight matriarch to fight at your side." There is no "right and wrong" here, it's clearly stating the conjured creature is a real denizen of oblivion and not a magical construct. I've also sited several in-game lore books such as Principles of Conjuration which state: Conjuration is the arcane art of summoning creatures and items from other planes for the usage and benefit of the conjurer. Everything points to the idea that when the player is "casting" a conjuration spell, they are doing everything needed to pull a creature from oblivion and binding it, any of the other one-off situations are just that, one-off. (Such as the atronach golems you build in the mage tower, or the flesh atronach you build in the shivering isles) Your last line is the only thing I take issue with, as the tooltip for the Storm Atronach is specifically stating: "Summon a storm atronach at the target location." Summoning is not "creating". You are not putting it together, you're not calling on memories, and the binding spell which the OP translated should be further proof it's a real atronach from oblivion, as binding is a HUGE part of the whole summoning thing. The unbound one roaming around are their own thing, and a different topic of discussion altogether.

Excuse me as I did misrepresent with a different definition to daedra then the one assumed, may've meant Dremora. While the origin of crafting atronachs is unknown, the process itself is know to take aedric essences & form them into creatures. The manual of the 'First Atronach Forge' displayed a process were a daedric device just churns up various aspects of nirn to create various things including half a goat. As the conversion of Trinimac & Meridia will probably display the only thing that separate an aedrea from a daedra is the nature of there behavior. Since Atronachs are driven by a blood lust for magic, this can make them naturally hostile towards mortals, turning otherwise cooperative elements of nirn into 'daedra'. Meaning that they must be bound for the creators/summoners protection. Though vastly different from the corruption of a single manifestation of akatosh into titans.
That aside, while atronachs are crafted they can also be summoned if they remain integral. A clear example of this is the Storm Lord, Zymel Hriz descent from cold harbor as a servant of Molag-bal. What may validate OPs claim more then anything is the way in which the sorcerers storm atronach is summoned. Rather then manifesting from a portal like the other four various 'species' of daedra called on by players, the storm atro appears to be focused down from the sky as if it were channeled from the elemental potential of surrounding storms. While later evolutions of Storm atronachs can fly the ones that are in this game appear ground based, making it unlikely that you've pulled a wild one from the sky, if such a thing exists. Compared to simply manifesting one by summoning the power of the surrounding area into an Atronach.
Extremely perverted use of the tool tip, but its plausible.

Pinja

ArchMikem wrote: »

AtAfternoon wrote: »

Cool thread, never noticed the text on the storm atronach.

Several of the sorcerers skills have made me scratch my head because I'm not completely sure what's actual happening when I cast them.

What do you do when you cast Dark Exchange? It says ”bargain with darkness”. What is that, a casual deal with Clavicus Vile?

Law of exchange. You give up one thing to gain another.

Maybe. No clue on this one. Maybe all sorcerers & mages guild members are tough how to access a planner exchange of attributes, you trow in & throw out with stamina getting premium rates because its high in demand?