Should traditional levels be abolished with Tamriel One?

UltimaJoe777

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

Traditional levels can't be abolished otherwise the early game would lose its purpose, but maybe once you hit 50 you can directly access endgame gear no need for cp 10-150 gear

You can already do that lol provided it isn't your first character to hit 50 of course. They don't plan to make it any easier access than that though.

Holycannoli

No and here is why

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Holycannoli wrote: »

One Tamriel is already getting rid of levels, in a way. Level scaling each and every zone is really one of the worst ideas I've heard.

I agree, but they want people to be able to freely explore all of Tamriel from the get-go. That is why this is steering away from an MMORPG and becoming an MMOESG (Massively Multiplayer Online Elder Scrolls Game).

They can open the world all they want, just don't scale levels.

Open world = great

Level scaling = terrible

UltimaJoe777

Holycannoli wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Holycannoli wrote: »

One Tamriel is already getting rid of levels, in a way. Level scaling each and every zone is really one of the worst ideas I've heard.

I agree, but they want people to be able to freely explore all of Tamriel from the get-go. That is why this is steering away from an MMORPG and becoming an MMOESG (Massively Multiplayer Online Elder Scrolls Game).

They can open the world all they want, just don't scale levels.

Open world = great

Level scaling = terrible

And I'm all for that but then they will get people complaining that they cannot truly freely explore Tamriel because they are underleveled. As a veteran MMO player I actually appreciate venturing too deep too soon and being outclassed as a result, but this is The Elder Scrolls, and they don't want to roll like that...

Kalifas

Yes and here is why

starkerealm wrote: »

If you want a crazy ideag, here's one: do away with level prereqs for items.

Solariken wrote: »

ESO should have been designed without traditional levels from the beginning. There are many more interesting ways to offer character progression than the tired WoW-like system.

Yeah, how dare AD&D copy WOW's leveling system. I bet they even stole the classes. There's nothing original about any of that. But, they're not the real offenders. How dare Diablo rip off WoW from the future. Does Blizzard have no shame!?

( ._.)

...right.

So, this may come as a surprise, but World of Warcraft was kinda innovative at the time, but it was still working within an existing Genre.

Also, having played MMOs that tried to strip out the level progression system entirely, the results are not that great. Unless there's literally no way to indicate progress, players will find a way to assess their relative power. Levels and CR make that convenient, but stripping them out is not a panacea.

EDIT: The worst possible outcome is gear based progression, in which case players are literally dependent on RNG in order to "level up." Which, quite frankly, *****. Again, this is coming from personal experience.

Here you get archetypes(4 classes)locked to one character(vestige), each vestige differs from the other vestiges(biggest difference-races)which leads into more diversity(big difference-Champion) in the onset but later less diversity(little difference-Champion Point)because the CP passives are tuned too high and allow too much global spending and things get super capped as a result.

Levels along with Champion make the game easier than it was before. Levels have no real purpose once One Tamriel drops. You say gear is a bad progression? That is not always true, all a CP or Level tell you is that someone played the game long enough doing whatever which has no relation to what kind of skill or dedication a player brings to the game.

Where as a gear based progression can tell you right off the back what someone has accomplished. With no numbers sometimes, just off visuals alone. If you see a gear that is top of the line and untradable, you know that player is one of the best players on the server. His CP or level could not give you that straight forward info on where or how he earned it.

Now the bad form of gear progression does exist. Which is........

Ilvl type: Small incremental raises with slightly better stats, usually have to reacquire better gear every 2-3 months, usually grindy. Like CP gear cap is currently

Progressive Tier: Substantial raises with substantial stat increase,occasional new stats to widen options, usually stay relevant 9-18 months, and zone/content acqusition tells the story of dedication.

CherryCake

I dont know how I feel about this to be honest... even in level scaling areas I feel weaker than in the normal PVE areas for some reason... and on the other side, I am already used to this system... they changed vet levels already, and now to change again?...I dont want a change every year or second year, it doesnt even feel like the same game after a while...

ParaNostram

No and here is why

Because that's a stupid idea?

Kalifas

Yes and here is why

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Holycannoli wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Holycannoli wrote: »

One Tamriel is already getting rid of levels, in a way. Level scaling each and every zone is really one of the worst ideas I've heard.

I agree, but they want people to be able to freely explore all of Tamriel from the get-go. That is why this is steering away from an MMORPG and becoming an MMOESG (Massively Multiplayer Online Elder Scrolls Game).

They can open the world all they want, just don't scale levels.

Open world = great

Level scaling = terrible

And I'm all for that but then they will get people complaining that they cannot truly freely explore Tamriel because they are underleveled. As a veteran MMO player I actually appreciate venturing too deep too soon and being outclassed as a result, but this is The Elder Scrolls, and they don't want to roll like that...

Battle Scaling is a horrible solution. It trivializes your progression and world immersion. What is the point of getting The Set Of Ultimate God if it is the same strength of cloth robe when in normal zones. There needs to be a farther pasture beyond the green one we lie in now. With a toggable sync down for veterans wanting to play with Newbies.

Battle-Synch is created to bring players together. But I say levels are created to tear players apart. This conundrum shall plaque the game until levels are nothing more than a figment of our imagination

ADarklore

So if you removed levels, then wouldn't that make crafting and other things that are pretty much 'level dependent' obsolete? So we'd eliminate all those crafting mats that are based upon levels, so suddenly everyone is wearing the same gear, same everything... NO THANKS. That is part of the fun of leveling... to see your character move forward, get another couple of SPs, gain more attributes, to craft another set of gear, etc. Take that away and suddenly you've taken most of the fun out of the game... which is why once you hit VR160 along with CP501... suddenly the game feels a little deflating because there really isn't any more "moving forward" progression anymore.

This is probably why I've started numerous alts and raised them to level 50, then eventually deleted and started over... the entire leveling experience is the funnest thing to do IMO.

UltimaJoe777

Kalifas wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Holycannoli wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Holycannoli wrote: »

One Tamriel is already getting rid of levels, in a way. Level scaling each and every zone is really one of the worst ideas I've heard.

I agree, but they want people to be able to freely explore all of Tamriel from the get-go. That is why this is steering away from an MMORPG and becoming an MMOESG (Massively Multiplayer Online Elder Scrolls Game).

They can open the world all they want, just don't scale levels.

Open world = great

Level scaling = terrible

And I'm all for that but then they will get people complaining that they cannot truly freely explore Tamriel because they are underleveled. As a veteran MMO player I actually appreciate venturing too deep too soon and being outclassed as a result, but this is The Elder Scrolls, and they don't want to roll like that...

Battle Scaling is a horrible solution. It trivializes your progression and world immersion. What is the point of getting The Set Of Ultimate God if it is the same strength of cloth robe when in normal zones. There needs to be a farther pasture beyond the green one we lie in now. With a toggable sync down for veterans wanting to play with Newbies.

Battle-Synch is created to bring players together. But I say levels are created to tear players apart. This conundrum shall plaque the game until levels are nothing more than a figment of our imagination

Trust me if it goes any further south I'm going to ditch it before we hit Mexico.

Kalifas

Yes and here is why

ADarklore wrote: »

So if you removed levels, then wouldn't that make crafting and other things that are pretty much 'level dependent' obsolete? So we'd eliminate all those crafting mats that are based upon levels, so suddenly everyone is wearing the same gear, same everything... NO THANKS. That is part of the fun of leveling... to see your character move forward, get another couple of SPs, gain more attributes, to craft another set of gear, etc. Take that away and suddenly you've taken most of the fun out of the game... which is why once you hit VR160 along with CP501... suddenly the game feels a little deflating because there really isn't any more "moving forward" progression anymore.

This is probably why I've started numerous alts and raised them to level 50, then eventually deleted and started over... the entire leveling experience is the funnest thing to do IMO.

I'd prefer crafting mats based upon location. One flora and fauna does not grow in another region and that region it does not grow in has it's own ecosphere. Perhaps crafting a specific reward system that grows and rewards you for exploring the outer reaches of Tamriel.

Holycannoli

No and here is why

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Trust me if it goes any further south I'm going to ditch it before we hit Mexico.

Exactly. I'm seriously considering it if they go through with this. I'm all for opening the word but level scaling is such a stupid idea for a MMORPG.

Maybe I'm just a traditionalist, but ESO used to be pretty traditional too which is probably one reason it appealed to me.

UltimaJoe777

Holycannoli wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Trust me if it goes any further south I'm going to ditch it before we hit Mexico.

Exactly. I'm seriously considering it if they go through with this. I'm all for opening the word but level scaling is such a stupid idea for a MMORPG.

Maybe I'm just a traditionalist, but ESO used to be pretty traditional too which is probably one reason it appealed to me.

Battle-leveling the entire game is more of strike 2 for me. The first strike was the removal of Veteran Ranks with nothing to replace it, thus reducing progressive accomplishments. At least I had a VR16 before they went the way of the dodo bird.

It's hard to feel like you accomplish much in a game like this when progression is barely present...

Elsonso

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Holycannoli wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Holycannoli wrote: »

One Tamriel is already getting rid of levels, in a way. Level scaling each and every zone is really one of the worst ideas I've heard.

I agree, but they want people to be able to freely explore all of Tamriel from the get-go. That is why this is steering away from an MMORPG and becoming an MMOESG (Massively Multiplayer Online Elder Scrolls Game).

They can open the world all they want, just don't scale levels.

Open world = great

Level scaling = terrible

And I'm all for that but then they will get people complaining that they cannot truly freely explore Tamriel because they are underleveled. As a veteran MMO player I actually appreciate venturing too deep too soon and being outclassed as a result, but this is The Elder Scrolls, and they don't want to roll like that...

Yeah, it is not fair to say that "Elder Scrolls" does not want to roll like that.

I am all about Elder Scrolls and RPG. I would like to see ESO double down on both of those, and that does mean getting rid of the MMO leveled zone concept, familiar to any World of Warcraft player, and replacing it with a proper open world environment that is not unreasonably restricted by level or Alliance.

However, I am not in favor of universally scaled worlds like what they have done with the DLC.

I don't want to have the world be magically the same as me, no matter how much I progress or where I go. Never being able to get in over my head. Never being able to dominate the world. This is Oblivion (The Elder Scrolls 4) all over again. A player could play almost the entire game, from main quest to Shivering Isles, as a low level character. Only a few Daedric quests had minimum level requirements. In the words of the immortal Sheogorath, "BORING!".

This is, sadly, what I think One Tamriel has in store for us. Boring does not get me to spend for a monthly ESO Plus subscription. There are other games out there that have cheese, and if I am in another game, I would be too busy having fun there to come back just because they have some new DLC that can be beaten in a couple hours.

But, it is too early to turn off the lights, quite yet. They should have the option of presenting what they are actually working on.

As to the subject of the thread and whether they should eliminate levels. I am not so much interested in ditching the character level as I am ditching the character classes, but yes, I do think that if they take the Oblivion router, there will be little importance to levels.

I mean, go to Wrothgar and watch. That low level character over there kills the monsters just as handily as a level 50. It really does not matter what the character level is. It matters what the CHAMPION RANK is because that, and SKILL LEVEL, define the character in the DLC zones. Character level is irrelevant. They can tweak the game design to eliminate it and replace those things that depend upon it with other mechanics.

(Edit: interesting what words are captured by the language filter that really aren't profanity. Edited to change it so people don't think I was swearing)

Kalifas

Yes and here is why

lordrichter wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Holycannoli wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Holycannoli wrote: »

One Tamriel is already getting rid of levels, in a way. Level scaling each and every zone is really one of the worst ideas I've heard.

I agree, but they want people to be able to freely explore all of Tamriel from the get-go. That is why this is steering away from an MMORPG and becoming an MMOESG (Massively Multiplayer Online Elder Scrolls Game).

They can open the world all they want, just don't scale levels.

Open world = great

Level scaling = terrible

And I'm all for that but then they will get people complaining that they cannot truly freely explore Tamriel because they are underleveled. As a veteran MMO player I actually appreciate venturing too deep too soon and being outclassed as a result, but this is The Elder Scrolls, and they don't want to roll like that...

Yeah, it is not fair to say that "Elder Scrolls" does not want to roll like that.

I am all about Elder Scrolls and RPG. I would like to see ESO double down on both of those, and that does mean getting rid of the MMO leveled zone concept, familiar to any World of Warcraft player, and replacing it with a proper open world environment that is not unreasonably restricted by level or Alliance.

However, I am not in favor of universally scaled worlds like what they have done with the DLC.

I don't want to have the world be magically the same as me, no matter how much I progress or where I go. Never being able to get in over my head. Never being able to dominate the world. This is Oblivion (The Elder Scrolls 4) all over again. A player could play almost the entire game, from main quest to Shivering Isles, as a low level character. Only a few Daedric quests had minimum level requirements. In the words of the immortal Sheogorath, "BORING!".

This is, sadly, what I think One Tamriel has in store for us. Boring does not get me to spend for a monthly ESO Plus subscription. There are other games out there that have cheese, and if I am in another game, I would be too busy having fun there to come back just because they have some new DLC that can be beaten in a couple hours.

But, it is too early to turn off the lights, quite yet. They should have the option of presenting what they are actually working on.

As to the subject of the thread and whether they should eliminate levels. I am not so much interested in ditching the character level as I am ditching the character classes, but yes, I do think that if they take the Oblivion router, there will be little importance to levels.

I mean, go to Wrothgar and watch. That low level character over there kills the monsters just as handily as a level 50. It really does not matter what the character level is. It matters what the CHAMPION RANK is because that, and SKILL LEVEL, define the character in the DLC zones. Character level is irrelevant. They can *** the game design to eliminate it and replace those things that depend upon it with other mechanics.

I think a leveled zone concept is fine. But there has to be varying states or levels within a zone.
Example:
Go to GrahtWood
The beginner enemies are CP 160 that you battle in the quest stories.
There are quest that bring you back later with enemies that are CP 180 or 200.
There are elder quest that bring you back and enemies are CP 501 and so on.

I am fine with Faction being able to play with anyone for the sake of easier grouping. But they need to add more reasons for Factions such as PvE Cyrodil or Imperial City. As I said, level bring nothing to the table but their purpose is to segregate players , and the whole purpose of One Tamriel is to Unite Tamriel.

Faction Wars
This is something like Cyrodil except battles take place in a town or fort in different factions territories and it's massive PvE, Players Versus Npcs. It doesn't really make sense that the alliances only fight in Cyrodil since they are competing against each other, at least to me. This would be an instance with about 100 players total defending their nation's specific city or fort.

How to Participate:
To Participate all you do is unlock the content via a quest from your alliance leader. Then you teleport or travel to a location where an attack is about to start or has started. Upon entering the door you are taken into an instanced battle between two alliances. Up to a 100 players can enter this instance as long as they are in your alliance. You then battle alongside them and your alliance npcs and generals until your army is defeated or you defeat the other army consisting of enemy npcs. There is no players from an opposing alliance. This content is strictly PvE.



Each faction would have a defending leader or generals and the invading force would have a leader or generals. These generals or leaders would raise morale when their respective army is doing well and grant their army a few army wide boons. If the generals or leaders army is doing poorly, morale lowers and their respective army gets army wide penalties. Also each army would have elite allies both humanoid or titanic monsters that fight for them.

High Morale Army Boons:

• Rain Of Arrows: Your army's npc archers unleash their arrows all at once barraging the enemies from the skies.Activating a synergy as this happens close by allows the various real players to join in on the arrow carnage.
• Spattering Oil: Npcs pour hot oil over enemies from the fort or city walls. Activating a synergy around the targets area allows various players to ignite the oil increasing burning damage.
• Surge of Waters: Your armies magicians can call down the rain from the skies. Activating a synergy around the targets area allows various players to cast shock increasing damage by 5% to surrounding enemies.

Low Morale Army Penalties:

• Cries Of The Wounded: Your armies injured incur a bleeding damage taken. Activating a synergy on wounded targets removes the bleeding debuff.
• Flight Unabridged: Your armies archers incur heavy damage and cannot activate a Rain Of Arrows. Players must go defeat enemies around them attacking them.
• Barrier In Danger: Your doors and barricades are being destroyed and face destruction. Players must go defeat enemies that are damaging it. A synergy can be activated by players which allows the players to repair damaged doors and barricades.

1. A Faction will invade another faction's city or fort every 3-6 hours after the last battle.
2. In between the last invasion an army will make preparations then proceed to march on a city or fort.
3. Upon arriving an assault will ensue and will not end until on side or the other is defeated.

Faction War Levels:
There are 7 Levels of difficulty on Faction Wars.

• The first defensive or offensive battle starts at Level 1 on the front lines in an occupation zone.
• After you defeat the first invader, the next city's or fort's next invasion will be Level 2 on the second line of defense.
• After you defeat the 2nd invasion, the 3rd city's or fort's next invasion will be level 3 at the third line of defense.
• And so on and so forth.
• The Final Level 7 battle will be a major city or fort. After the final stand is over the level resets to 1 and it begins anew at the front lines.

Each level of difficulty has the invading forces grow in numbers and numbers of elite type enemies. The level resets to 1 when your faction either defends at Level 7 successfully or loses to an invader. And the cycle starts anew.

Faction War Strategies:
Though Faction Wars are a group effort, it is often too chaotic to organize any true strategy, so most people attempt to help out, while maxing out their EXP/IS bonus. Some basic strategies are:

• Stay near one of the leaders or generals.
• If you are a damage dealer, /assist them and attack their target.
• If you are a healer help buff them, and keep them alive with cures when they get in trouble. This is especially true if your faction has lost a number of the leaders or generals.
• Attack the elite enemies. The enemies will tend to retreat once all of their leaders or generals are defeated, even if the total enemy forces have not been defeated.
• On the other hand, the elite enemies or Mega Bosses of the armies take a ridiculously long time to defeat and should be kited, as defeating them is not necessary to win. (And, often, if substantial damage is done to them, they will probably call off the battle, even if the invading enemy has not been demplished in total numbers.
• Targeting weaker or lower HP enemies, that can be defeated quickly, to reduce the total number of enemies in the area, freeing up more players and NPCs to have an easier time defeating elite enemies or generals. After defeating an enemy, look around for enemies that have already been heavily damaged and help finish them.

For melees:
Fight and stun as needed. Good gear/food is highly recommended, as many players have trouble hitting Faction War enemies hard reliably, even at 50 with max champion points. Food is lost upon death.


For healers:
Cure and buff NPCs (especially the leaders or generals) and anyone else around.
Stun, knockbacks, and snares can be helpful.
If you have a protected position and there are a mob of enemies on a General, an AoE effect can help, but be careful you don't get too much hate.
Unless your PC can handle heavy amounts of lag, stay away from the initial waves, particularly in the key areas inside the battle, as these tend to have lag issues.
The leading leader of each army has something special in order to defeat them. For example, players should generally avoid magic damage on Queen Ayrenn because she frequently uses a Magic Shield-like ability which causes said damage to heal instead of hurt her.

Allies:
Players are not alone in Faction Wars. They have the assistance of other players in addition to other npcs and the generals in their army.

Rewards:

• Every Faction Battle rewards players with experience points and alliance points in their respective alliance..
• These alliance points act as a rank and also count as a currency to buy items and Alliance Motif Gear.
• Your Alliance rank determines what items are available, with each rank the goods available are more potent and cool looking.
• Players can use that currency to buy special items or gear relevant and bound to this content.
• Alliance rank also allows the player to access special quest that are allowed for a set amount of alliance points.
• The Alliance rank starts at Level 1 and each rank cost 10,000 alliance points. The Alliance Rank caps at Level 10.

You can unlock Alliance Specific Skill lines participating in this content. Each rank is unlocked as you advance in the alliance ranks. I list some possible passives and ZoS would have to add some Alliance Specific Active skills to compliment this.

Unlockable Faction Specific Passive PvE Skill lines:

Rise Of The Ebonheart

• Rank 1:The King's Mercy- Resurrecting during this Faction War content costs no soul gems
• Rank 2:The King's Zest- The healing done and healing received from you and allied npcs are increased by 10% in this Faction War content.
• Rank 3:The King's Steed- Movement Speed increased by 10% during this Faction War content.
• Rank 4:The King's Zest- Health Recovery increased by 10% during this Faction War content.
• Rank 5:The King's Blessing- Magicka recovery increased by 10% during this Faction War content.
• Rank 6:The King's Vibrancy- Stamina Recovery increased by 10% during this Faction War Content.
• Rank 7:The Hand Of Ebonheart- The damage of Alliance Specific Active skills is increased by 5% during this Faction War content.
• Rank 8:The Soul Of Ebonheart- The Cost of Alliance Specific Active Skills is decreased by 10% during this Faction War Content.
• Rank 9:The Breath Of Ebonheart- Damage received decreased by 10% during this Faction War content.
• Rank 10:Wrath Of The Ebonheart- Grants you an ability to use an Alliance Specific Ultimate Ability.

I have said this before but I came from FFXI. They had a massive PvE event called Besieged which gave me the idea for this. I would like to see something like this in Elder Scrolls Online. A type of event that gives a sense of us against them but not direct PvP. It would add more meaning to what faction I belong to and some fun

What the game needs is removal of levels, a nerfing/tuning of Champion, make gear as I said earlier. The classes are fine except that they are tied to one character equals one class. There should be more classes and class skill lines unlocked to one character.

ClassCrafting

And if levels got stripped and Champion got tuned/nerfed. That could open the door for the Oblivion way of leveling up in addition to the Champion System.

I proposed a version of it, it doesn't have to be like I show here. This how you handle progress without levels.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/270882/mastery-point-concept

Hallothiel

Holycannoli wrote: »

One Tamriel is already getting rid of levels, in a way. Level scaling each and every zone is really one of the worst ideas I've heard.

Yep. Agree. But we are in a minority as it is apparently the best thing ever to happen to this game ever ever ever & they should have done it from the start......etc.

If you don't like something that is relatively fundamental to the game as it was designed I have to ask why play the game in the first place? Play something else rather than demand the game be changed to suit your demands. When One Tamriel comes in it will probably mean I will play far less as it will ruin a game I love. So rather than come on here & b*tch & whinge I'll just go play something else
... Heigh ***!

《Btw "heigh ***" is not a rude phrase - so have no idea why the h & o have been blocked out! Unless is over-senditive screening.....so how write what Santa says??!》

craybest

if they have an interesting system to replace it, then I'm all for it. getting to 50 is one of the first objective goals, so they would need to replace it with something interesting.
I usually like original systems that variate from the usual MMO norm. Just make it fun and entertaining.

Hallothiel

And I am confused with people saying that removing levels will make it more Elder Scrolls - there were levels in Skyrim, and enemies you could not kill unless you levelled up & got better gear - giants quite literally kicked a**e when you were low level. As did some dragons.

Battle /area levelling will just make the game dull. Sometimes you want to be tested & sometimes you want to play god & sometimes you want to play Brave Sir Robin...

vyndral13preub18_ESO

Yes and here is why

They are basically removing levels with this change. The funny part about it is, those who keep their equipment updated will actually see their stats go down as they level. That is great for the feeling of progression.

Elsonso

Kalifas wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

Yeah, it is not fair to say that "Elder Scrolls" does not want to roll like that.

I am all about Elder Scrolls and RPG. I would like to see ESO double down on both of those, and that does mean getting rid of the MMO leveled zone concept, familiar to any World of Warcraft player, and replacing it with a proper open world environment that is not unreasonably restricted by level or Alliance.

However, I am not in favor of universally scaled worlds like what they have done with the DLC.

I don't want to have the world be magically the same as me, no matter how much I progress or where I go. Never being able to get in over my head. Never being able to dominate the world. This is Oblivion (The Elder Scrolls 4) all over again. A player could play almost the entire game, from main quest to Shivering Isles, as a low level character. Only a few Daedric quests had minimum level requirements. In the words of the immortal Sheogorath, "BORING!".

This is, sadly, what I think One Tamriel has in store for us. Boring does not get me to spend for a monthly ESO Plus subscription. There are other games out there that have cheese, and if I am in another game, I would be too busy having fun there to come back just because they have some new DLC that can be beaten in a couple hours.

But, it is too early to turn off the lights, quite yet. They should have the option of presenting what they are actually working on.

As to the subject of the thread and whether they should eliminate levels. I am not so much interested in ditching the character level as I am ditching the character classes, but yes, I do think that if they take the Oblivion router, there will be little importance to levels.

I mean, go to Wrothgar and watch. That low level character over there kills the monsters just as handily as a level 50. It really does not matter what the character level is. It matters what the CHAMPION RANK is because that, and SKILL LEVEL, define the character in the DLC zones. Character level is irrelevant. They can tweak the game design to eliminate it and replace those things that depend upon it with other mechanics.

I think a leveled zone concept is fine. But there has to be varying states or levels within a zone.
Example:
Go to GrahtWood
The beginner enemies are CP 160 that you battle in the quest stories.
There are quest that bring you back later with enemies that are CP 180 or 200.
There are elder quest that bring you back and enemies are CP 501 and so on.

So, just to be clear, there has to be some sort of "leveling" across the world in order for there to be a progression. I just feel that it should not be based on zones.

What I refer to as the "MMO leveled zone concept" is where each zone has a level range from X to Y and this applies to quests, monsters, treasures, resources, and everything else in the zone. Players enter the zone, consume the zone, and when they are done, they leave the zone, never to return. If a player exceeds level Y before they are done with the zone, they no longer get XP, loot, or whatever is in the zone because they are "over-level".

It is far far too late for ESO, but an Elder Scrolls open concept would have had challenges of all levels spread out all across the world, not restricted to zone ranges. Morrowind was much more like this and it would be cool if ESO had returned to this rather than going with the MMO zones.

Kalifas wrote: »

What the game needs is removal of levels, a nerfing/tuning of Champion, make gear as I said earlier. The classes are fine except that they are tied to one character equals one class. There should be more classes and class skill lines unlocked to one character.

ClassCrafting

And if levels got stripped and Champion got tuned/nerfed. That could open the door for the Oblivion way of leveling up in addition to the Champion System.

I proposed a version of it, it doesn't have to be like I show here. This how you handle progress without levels.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/270882/mastery-point-concept

I can see where the Elder Scrolls is going with the reduction of attributes and how they impact skills. I think that Skyrim took it a bit too far by dropping it to the three we have today in ESO, though.

I would much prefer to have skills rather than classes. I know that Elder Scrolls has classes, but these are more templates than anything else, and ESO should have gone that way rather than being the "familiar MMO" class game. In this way, we would build all the different the skills that define the character rather than picking a predefined Class and Weapon.

Holycannoli

No and here is why

lordrichter wrote: »

I am all about Elder Scrolls and RPG. I would like to see ESO double down on both of those, and that does mean getting rid of the MMO leveled zone concept, familiar to any World of Warcraft player, and replacing it with a proper open world environment that is not unreasonably restricted by level or Alliance.

Leveled zones aren't a WoW thing. They've been around in RPGs for some 30 years. It's a tried and true RPG concept. You can't just go running to the highest level, most difficult zones as a new character. You work your way up to them.

That's how ESO works, that's what a lot of us enjoy, and if they go drastically changing the game that much the game will fail. Mark my words, level scaling the way they propose will sink this game. It was designed around a DAOC-style system, not a system they want to change it to. It won't work.

Runefang

I'd love to see the end of two leveling systems for sure, having just one is much cleaner.

Kalifas

Yes and here is why

lordrichter wrote:

So, just to be clear, there has to be some sort of "leveling" across the world in order for there to be a progression. I just feel that it should not be based on zones.

What I refer to as the "MMO leveled zone concept" is where each zone has a level range from X to Y and this applies to quests, monsters, treasures, resources, and everything else in the zone. Players enter the zone, consume the zone, and when they are done, they leave the zone, never to return. If a player exceeds level Y before they are done with the zone, they no longer get XP, loot, or whatever is in the zone because they are "over-level".

It is far far too late for ESO, but an Elder Scrolls open concept would have had challenges of all levels spread out all across the world, not restricted to zone ranges. Morrowind was much more like this and it would be cool if ESO had returned to this rather than going with the MMO zones.

Basically we are talking about the same want. Zones to stay relevant for more than the initial quest line through it. Battle Scaling is a bandaid solution though. The heart of an adventurer is not to go through a journey knowing the outcome and knowing that anything he encounters there will be no tougher than anywhere else.

Kalifas wrote: »

What the game needs is removal of levels, a nerfing/tuning of Champion, make gear as I said earlier. The classes are fine except that they are tied to one character equals one class. There should be more classes and class skill lines unlocked to one character.

ClassCrafting

And if levels got stripped and Champion got tuned/nerfed. That could open the door for the Oblivion way of leveling up in addition to the Champion System.

I proposed a version of it, it doesn't have to be like I show here. This how you handle progress without levels.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/270882/mastery-point-concept

lordrichter wrote:

I can see where the Elder Scrolls is going with the reduction of attributes and how they impact skills. I think that Skyrim took it a bit too far by dropping it to the three we have today in ESO, though.

I would much prefer to have skills rather than classes. I know that Elder Scrolls has classes, but these are more templates than anything else, and ESO should have gone that way rather than being the "familiar MMO" class game. In this way, we would build all the different the skills that define the character rather than picking a predefined Class and Weapon.

I think the 3 way thing is fine if there is a risk/reward, a CP system that gives and takes it's opposite. This Champion system only gives and doesn't take.So if the caps are raised and it stays the way it is. Eventually someone will master every point in the Champion System.

My class craft is sort of what you want. You are still free to build whatever you want from any skill lines. You just get synergistic boons if you match 3 skill lines to form a class.

FFXIV tried to go the full free build on it's first launch and I liked it. But sadly, their playerbase did not. They wanted more iconic specializations so the job system was introduced. My Class Craft idea not only allows you to choose skill lines. But modify how skills are cast.

zardenurghanb14_ESO

This is like asking if any of the other ES games need traditional levels since you can go anywhere you want in those games as well.

zardenurghanb14_ESO

Kalifas wrote: »

lordrichter wrote:

So, just to be clear, there has to be some sort of "leveling" across the world in order for there to be a progression. I just feel that it should not be based on zones.

What I refer to as the "MMO leveled zone concept" is where each zone has a level range from X to Y and this applies to quests, monsters, treasures, resources, and everything else in the zone. Players enter the zone, consume the zone, and when they are done, they leave the zone, never to return. If a player exceeds level Y before they are done with the zone, they no longer get XP, loot, or whatever is in the zone because they are "over-level".

It is far far too late for ESO, but an Elder Scrolls open concept would have had challenges of all levels spread out all across the world, not restricted to zone ranges. Morrowind was much more like this and it would be cool if ESO had returned to this rather than going with the MMO zones.

Basically we are talking about the same want. Zones to stay relevant for more than the initial quest line through it. Battle Scaling is a bandaid solution though. The heart of an adventurer is not to go through a journey knowing the outcome and knowing that anything he encounters there will be no tougher than anywhere else.

Kalifas wrote: »

What the game needs is removal of levels, a nerfing/tuning of Champion, make gear as I said earlier. The classes are fine except that they are tied to one character equals one class. There should be more classes and class skill lines unlocked to one character.

ClassCrafting

And if levels got stripped and Champion got tuned/nerfed. That could open the door for the Oblivion way of leveling up in addition to the Champion System.

I proposed a version of it, it doesn't have to be like I show here. This how you handle progress without levels.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/270882/mastery-point-concept

lordrichter wrote:

I can see where the Elder Scrolls is going with the reduction of attributes and how they impact skills. I think that Skyrim took it a bit too far by dropping it to the three we have today in ESO, though.

I would much prefer to have skills rather than classes. I know that Elder Scrolls has classes, but these are more templates than anything else, and ESO should have gone that way rather than being the "familiar MMO" class game. In this way, we would build all the different the skills that define the character rather than picking a predefined Class and Weapon.

I think the 3 way thing is fine if there is a risk/reward, a CP system that gives and takes it's opposite. This Champion system only gives and doesn't take.So if the caps are raised and it stays the way it is. Eventually someone will master every point in the Champion System.

My class craft is sort of what you want. You are still free to build whatever you want from any skill lines. You just get synergistic boons if you match 3 skill lines to form a class.

FFXIV tried to go the full free build on it's first launch and I liked it. But sadly, their playerbase did not. They wanted more iconic specializations so the job system was introduced. My Class Craft idea not only allows you to choose skill lines. But modify how skills are cast.

To be fair in FFXIV you can still use a full free build style pre 30 and post 30 but having the job system focuses the classes roles since ESO has classes that can fit any role at any time most people have 2 builds for 1 chatacter thanks to weapon swapping and with CP you essentially have that pick and choose option

AugustoCP

No and here is why

One Tamriel should go *** itself over. It's bad enough having battle scaling, now they want to make it worse putting it everywhere.

Elsonso

Holycannoli wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

I am all about Elder Scrolls and RPG. I would like to see ESO double down on both of those, and that does mean getting rid of the MMO leveled zone concept, familiar to any World of Warcraft player, and replacing it with a proper open world environment that is not unreasonably restricted by level or Alliance.

Leveled zones aren't a WoW thing. They've been around in RPGs for some 30 years. It's a tried and true RPG concept. You can't just go running to the highest level, most difficult zones as a new character. You work your way up to them.

That's how ESO works, that's what a lot of us enjoy, and if they go drastically changing the game that much the game will fail. Mark my words, level scaling the way they propose will sink this game. It was designed around a DAOC-style system, not a system they want to change it to. It won't work.

It's not a WoW thing, but I did need a reference.

Keep in mind that what I am talking about is further explained in a subsequent comment, but I am talking about the encapsulated zones that are really the computer game version of a Dungeons and Dragons module taken to an extreme. Zones are strung together like Dungeons and Dragons Campaigns with the players parading from one self-contained zone to the next. The computer game designers looked at something like "Keep on the Borderlands" and saw that no one ever went back to the Caves of Chaos, and they took that literally. Anyone returning there would only find level 1-3 creatures and no one ever returned to the keep or the caves.

That works great for single episode games, and is wonderful for games like Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim.

Oddly, the entire idea is in conflict with the whole premise of a persistent world MMO, yet it is still widely used in games that have ended up being exactly that.

Again, I reference World of Warcraft because it is big, a lot of people have played it, but more importantly, it has been around long enough that it really showcases the problem. The entire world of Azeroth, as presented by World of Warcraft, is nothing but a series of encapsulated zones that are designed to only be used for a brief period of time in the "life" of a character. Each zone is a static story locked in a specific point in time. It contains challenges, monsters, resources, and story specific to that zone, and really only that zone. Aside from a few people who farm crafting materials, no one needs to ever return to these places. No one goes to Loch Modan after they are finished with that zone because nothing is happening there.

So, when I say that ZOS should "get rid of the MMO leveled zone concept, familiar to any World of Warcraft player, and replace it with a proper open world environment", what I mean is that they need to move away from the encapsulated zone concept. Break apart the zone level locks and make it so that each zone has something in it for more than just a narrow range of characters intent of leveling their way out of there. Now, to some degree, ESO is already like this. A lot of people spend time in zone cities because the city offers services. ZOS needs to find ways to extend this outside of the city to the rest of the zone. One Tamriel seems to be the push to do this.

I end the sentence with the statement "not unreasonably restricted by level or Alliance" which simply means that they should not be using artificial game play restrictions to keep people out of zones. They should not have a Level 50 requirement for Craglorn, and any character should be able to go to any zone that has been created for the game, no matter which zone they were "born" in. What happens when a character does that might not be all kittens and puppies, but that is a matter for the story people and is part of the challenge that the game presents to the player. Again, One Tamriel is doing this.

My problem with One Tamriel is that I expect that they don't have time to do any real work, so it will be all kittens and puppies. I fear that they will strip the encapsulated self-sufficient leveled zones from the game and replace them with ubiquitous uniform unleveled (boring) zones.

RebornV3x

No and here is why

Its cool that they are opening up Tamriel from the get go but having the world scale to you is dumb just more handholding adventure BS wheres the challenge in something like that I mean its great if you go back to a lower level zone and it levels to you that's fine but lets say you go to Craglorn as a level 3 those enemies should not be level 3 for example lol how we make this game even easier.

starkerealm

Other and here is why

lordrichter wrote: »

This is Oblivion (The Elder Scrolls 4) all over again. A player could play almost the entire game, from main quest to Shivering Isles, as a low level character.

You could finish the main questline at level 2. You needed to take a single level in order to obtain a Daedric artifact for the main quest, but that was it.

It was also one of the easiest runs possible in Oblivion, because while enemies didn't continue gaining power as you went, the player did (because your skills were still advancing).

starkerealm

Other and here is why

Kalifas wrote: »

Here you get archetypes(4 classes)locked to one character(vestige), each vestige differs from the other vestiges(biggest difference-races)which leads into more diversity(big difference-Champion) in the onset but later less diversity(little difference-Champion Point)because the CP passives are tuned too high and allow too much global spending and things get super capped as a result.

...and your point is? Sorry, it looks like you might have taken my snark at @Solariken at face value.

Kalifas wrote: »

Levels along with Champion make the game easier than it was before. Levels have no real purpose once One Tamriel drops. You say gear is a bad progression? That is not always true, all a CP or Level tell you is that someone played the game long enough doing whatever which has no relation to what kind of skill or dedication a player brings to the game.

Gear progression is bad because it creates a situation where, for players to advance, they're entirely dependent on RNG. The equivalent now, would be if at each level, the game randomly chose how much XP you would need to reach the next three levels. Potentially you could skip levels, or you could be caterpulted forwards two or three at a time. Now, you're left sitting there, randomly grinding out content hoping that, "no, really, this time, it'll be enough to get some advancement."

Kalifas wrote: »

Where as a gear based progression can tell you right off the back what someone has accomplished. With no numbers sometimes, just off visuals alone. If you see a gear that is top of the line and untradable, you know that player is one of the best players on the server. His CP or level could not give you that straight forward info on where or how he earned it.

Actually, it doesn't. It only tells you how lucky someone is. A player, right now, can run vWGT once, completely fail, drag the team down, and still get a Kena helmet, because RNGesus favored them on the boss drop. It doesn't mean they were actually up to snuff for running it, just that they got lucky. Someone who is a very experienced player can run it every couple days for months and walk away with nothing if they're unlucky.

Or, someone could have spent 100k gold, they got from zerging WBs and getting malacath pages on The Golden, and gotten an infused Kena helm.

Or, another example, my main is in 5pc V16 Hunding's Rage, with 3pc Night Mother's. All nine pieces of gear are gold. So, from that, tell me, how many times have I run vet dungeons? How many trials have I completed?

Kalifas wrote: »

Now the bad form of gear progression does exist. Which is........

Ilvl type: Small incremental raises with slightly better stats, usually have to reacquire better gear every 2-3 months, usually grindy. Like CP gear cap is currently

Actually, that's not the bad form of gear progression. The worst possible form would be gear progression where there are significant power jumps between tiers of gear. Because there are no levels, you're simply rolling the dice hoping for higher quality gear, rather than it being automatically aimed at your level. (IE, you ran this PITA content, here, have some level 46 purples and blues for your trouble.) Because those significant jumps will effectively serve as a gear check, preventing anyone from advancing through the content until their luck changes.

And, yes, I have seen MMOs that do exactly this. Where you were expected to rerun the dungeons endlessly in the hopes that you'd get very rare drops which would push you a little bit further, and any progression beyond that was impossible.

Small incremental increases over time, even when it is grindy, are far better because it doesn't effectively gate players off from participating in the game. For example, if you still have your V14 gold sets from back when that was a cap, they're still statistically superior to purple V16 gear you can obtain right now. So, if you're gearing up an alt, and saved those old sets... now you have a use for them. You can still run content in that gear just fine. It's not BIS, but you're still allowed to play the game. When your gear based advancement represents a significant power jump, players who are in the process of grinding back up suffer disproportionately.

Kalifas wrote: »

Progressive Tier: Substantial raises with substantial stat increase,occasional new stats to widen options, usually stay relevant 9-18 months, and zone/content acqusition tells the story of dedication.

If you're talking about non-random distribution of gear as quest rewards... look, it's not impossible to design a game around gear progression. But, that would require a complete redesign of ESO's itemization to make it happen.

Hallothiel

Ok ignoring my dislike of battle-levelling, I have a genuine question on the mechanics.

One of the reasons for doing this is apparently so people can run with their friends, no matter what faction or level. So how will battle-levelling work if you are CP501 running with someone who is level 10, say?

It can't be that everything will be matched to your individual requirements as surely the programming to do that for a online game would be immense? Or is that that they are doing? Will the higher level be fighting the boss as matched to him whilst the friend battles the same one at the same time but for him it is a lower level one? Really? So every single potential opponent will be individually matched to your level - including all the mudcrabs?

Or if running with someone will it be more like a dungeon where someone has to be the leader & it levels to them? Who chooses the level?

Please - can someone explain how it's meant to work as I just can't see it.