ClassCrafting Concept

Kalifas · June 2016

The ClassCrafting System

I mentioned this concept previously but never fully explored the possibilities. Also upon reading previous feedback on various class discussions. I took others feedback into account and wanted to try and put this out there in the hopes ZoS would consider adding a ClassCrafting system. They might as well since there is no class or race unique story or specific class quest for each class playthrough. Starting from zero to play a new class after investing so much time in the current class could be stressful for players who have grown attached to their characters. This can be a thing if ZoS considers a few things. Kind of makes sense too. I don't recall having to pick a class at character creation in Skyrim. They can keep you starting out as one of the four archetypes just don't make it lock you into that archetype for the rest of the game.

Fact #1: Dragonknight, Templar, Sorcerer, and Nightblades are actually archetypes and not an actual class, but are being thought of as the former. The actual skills and passives mostly come from the skill lines they equip and the racial passives.
Fact#2: Locking class skill lines unto an archetype almost guarantees players will not be able to shape their character how they want. Some archetypes are inherently better at using certain skills than others.
Fact#3: Locking class skill lines unto an archetype prevents players from experiencing every skill line ESO ever offers on one character.

My proposal:
Unlock the class the skill lines from the archetypes and just make each character a vestige. This vestige can equip any skill line and those skill lines will dictate what passives they can equip. Let the difference between builds rely upon racial passives, skill lines equipped, armor/weapons equipped,and available class passives be locked to a class. If there is worry about losing the archetypes might cause characters to be too similar in appearance. They can keep the archetypes as a visual indicator aka iconic look. Equipping 3 specific skill lines unlocked under the Templar skill line makes you the Templar class. But mix and match 3 skill lines from different classes and you become a pseudo class.

A few notes I want to mention

The champion system is built to accommodate different builds and multiple characters.
Most skills come from weapon lines, armors,guilds, and class lines(not the archetype).
Spellcrafting will allow mixing and matching from different schools of magic
Mundus Stones are boons applicable to one character during a time
The cry for balance could disappear because there was no this archetype is better than my archetype or this archetype is better because of that skill line locked to it.

Classcrafting Incentives

Class Crafting will allow mixing and matching from different schools of classes on one character.
Class Crafting will allow players to progress how they want depending on what they want to unlock on one character.
Class Crafting will not make you start off anew from scratch with old characters to experience all different skill lines, will only have to reroll for racial or different nation story.
Class Crafting will allow players to earn experience currency based on what content they do to unlock special Class perks.

A UI of constellations similar to the champion system. There will be a constellation for each iconic class introduced. Imagine a Dragon Knight or Templar set in the stars among other constellations and future ones such as Cryomage or Monk. Each constellation has 3 Major Stars representing the 3 native skill lines.There will be quest lines with immersive story covering the journey of discovering all the skill lines of these constellations.

But there is no locked class system per character since every player can learn every skill from every constellation eventually. You could simply mix and match 3 skill lines from different classes and be classless, yet you would be able to play how you want.You quest the skill lines, each class constellation would have 3 skill lines to quest and unlock. For instance, equip Ardent Flame, Draconic Power, and Earthen Heart and you become a DragonKnight. Or equip Ardent Flame, Daedric Summoning, and Shadow and you become a stealthy fire wielding summoner!

Create a build swap with in the Champion UI that allows preset skills,champion points,armor, and weapons to be saved and swapped between on the fly outside combat and would be one hell of a fluid system. It would be as easy as clicking on an unlocked class constellation and clicking on a build. There will be a constellation called Vestige for setting skill line builds not locked into a class.

The supposed classes will be color shifted as TheShadowScout said in their class morph idea. So each class would be visually unique with different colors. Also they lay forth some future class possibilities.

TheShadowScout's Class Morphing Idea

Here is my Monk class idea and some visual mock-ups of two possible classes in the pictures.

Kalifa's Monk Class Concept

Class Crafting Note and Costs

Class Crafting Notes:
Champion Points function as a currency.
Skills and Perks cost X amount of currency.
Achieving Milestones like completion of 1-50 story quests, Specific Dungeons, Trials, World Bosses, and Elite Spawns to earn elite currency.
General Champion Experience Points earn you normal Champion currency as it does now.

Earn Champion Points & Elite Champion Points.
Use Elite Champion Points to unlock classes and passives.
Use Normal Champion Points as Currency to buy the original perks we have now.

Keep in mind, that everything you alter has a cost. And the larger or more powerful you alter the skills to be. The cost is weighed in. Pump too much into one parameter of the skill and your other skills for that class will suffer. The cost might even be too great to get one or two particular skills the exact way you want it.

The cost cap and how the cost applies:
Each parameter has different cost.
The lesser upgrades cost 5 Champion points.
The middle upgrades cost 10 Champion Points.
The greater upgrades cost 15-20 Champion points.
Each class has a cost cap of 450 Champion Points per class.
Each skill has a cost cap of 100 Champion Points per class.
Each Class has 5 Active and 4 passive abilities.

My caps may be off so let me know if they should be more or less.

When you come to your first morph for the new class skill after ranking it up sufficiently.
The class morph will cost one Normal Champion Currency

This initial purchase is the actual class move in terms of animation and what it's primary effect is. Things like spike damage, dot damage, hot done,stuns, snares, or bleeding,etc Zenimax sets the base & primary effect for the 3 morphs and synergies associated with skills. I exclude actual spells because the spell crafting system will cover that if it is ever implemented.

The Class Crafting Process

The Class Crafting Process Step by Step:

Conquer the initial story and gain level 50 earns you the first elite champion point to unlock a new class.
Use your elite point and it unlocks a quest to undertake to unlock the class.
Do the class specific quest that sends you on a journey learning about how the class works and how it came to be.
Play on the new class and unlock new skills as you do now. Enlightenment kicks in immediately as you begin playing on the new class.
Rank up your class skills like you do now.
Select one morph from a list of 3 possible predefined morphs.
You choose the parameters for the morph and define it.
Pick what the skill scales off from the choices of Health, Stamina, and Magicka.
Pick if the skill is single target or Area of Effect.
Pick the range. Close, Medium, Far.
Pick how the skill is cast. Front Target, Frontal Cone, Donut around your character, targeted radius,behind you,rear conal, or straight line before you.
Pick an additional effect. This is the first major effect, what we call buffs and debuffs like Maim,Endurance, Fortitude,etc.
Pick a second additional effect. This is second major effect, what we call buff and debuffs like Intellect, Berserk, Protection, etc.

You will see below in accordance with the cost for parameter altering and the later cost associated with a new passive ability system I am laying forth further down this post. That you could theoretically pick all the highest cost skills and max out all 5 active abilities for the class you are customizing. However, that would leave you with 0 Champion Points left to purchase the custom selective passives designed by Zenimax.The cost of custom selective passives is 10 Normal Champion Points each.

Each parameter you set has a cost associated to it. Remember, the lesser upgrades cost 5 Champion Points and the greater upgrades cost 10 Champion Points.

The cost of parameters modifier:

The damage scale selector cost you 5 Champion Points regardless of which attribute you scale off.
The type of execution cost you 5 Champion Points for single target and 10 Champion Points for Area Of Effect.
The range selector cost you 5 Champion Points for close, 10 Champion Points for medium, and 15 Champion Points for Far.

How the skill is cast modifier cost is:

5 CP for front target
5 CP for behind you
10 CP for Frontal cone
10 CP for rear conal
15 CP for straight line before you
15 CP for donut around character
20 CP for targeted radius

The Cost for the primary additional effect is:

10 Champion Points for Minor Additional Effects
20 Champion Points for Major Additional Effects

The Cost for the Secondary additional effect is:

10 Champion Points for Minor Additional Effects
20 Champion Points for Major Additional Effects

The New Custom Selective Passive System

Ever head the age old debate of please nerf X class because that class is overpowered compared to the class I play? Me too, and while not the whole reason for that debate. Part of that reason is certain passives lend themselves to certain playstyles or builds more than another playstyle or build. You might say that also has to do with racial passives, or better class development for certain classes over the other.

If Zenimax is even going to attempt to add Class Crafting which is a system that allows player to customize class skills. Then it needs a passive system that is free to help shape and mold character builds as well. What if Zenimax would allow us the option to choose and select 4 passives from a global list that is available for all classes to access. It no longer is a my class can't have that other class's passives, but a choice to have their passives or not. One class couldn't have every single passive but could choose a specific 4 passives to accentuate the class crafting build a player molded. The cost of custom selective passives is 10 Normal Champion Points each.

There are a couple ways or difference in how the passives work.

These are the class specific passives that should not be selectable:
Class Locked While Slotted
Class Locked While Using Abilities.
Only Boost Specific Class Skills
Gain Ultimate only when using specified class ability
Stance improving a specific class ability

These are the non class specific skills that should be selectable:
Open with No Lock Gaining Generalized Boons
When activating an ultimate ability

The writing in red under the passives section is some proposed additions to give more options.

Types of Passives

Class Lock While Slotted:
Piercing Spear:

Increases the damage bonus for your Critical Strikes by 5% and your damage against blocking targets by 5%.
Increases the damage bonus for your Critical Strikes by 10% and your damage against blocking targets by 10%.

Spear Wall:

Increases the amount of damage you can block against melee attacks by 7%.
Increases the amount of damage you can block against melee attacks by 10%.

Elder Dragon:

Increases Health Recovery by 2% for each Draconic Power ability slotted.
Increases Health Recovery by 4% for each Draconic Power ability slotted.

Magicka Flood:

Increases Max Magicka by 4% while a Siphoning ability is slotted.
Increases Max Magicka by 8% while a Siphoning ability is slotted.

Hemmorage: With An Assassination Ability Slotted:

Rank 1:Increases damage dealt by Critical Strikes by 10%. A successful critical hit gives nearby allies Minor Savagery, increasing Weapon Critical Strike rating by 657 for 10 seconds.
Rank 2:Increases damage dealt by Critical Strikes by 10%. A successful critical hit gives nearby allies Minor Savagery, increasing Weapon Critical Strike rating by 657 for 20 seconds.

Pressure Points:

Increases Critical Strike and Spell Critical ratings by 1314 for each Assassination ability slotted.
Increases Critical Strike and Spell Critical ratings by 2629 for each Assassination ability slotted.

Expert Mage:

Increases Spell Damage and Weapon Damage by 1% for each Sorcerer ability slotted.
Increases Spell Damage and Weapon Damage by 2% for each Sorcerer ability slotted.

Daedric Summoning:

Rank1: Increases your Health Recovery and Stamina Recovery by 10% when a Daedric Summoning ability is slotted.
Rank 2:Increases your Health Recovery and Stamina Recovery by 20% when a Daedric Summoning ability is slotted.

Soul Siphoner:

Rank 1:Increases the effectiveness of your Healing done by 2% for each Siphoning ability slotted.
Rank 2:Increases the effectiveness of your Healing done by 3% for each Siphoning ability slotted.

Class Locked While Using Abilities:
Mending:

Rank 1:Increases the healing effects from your Restoring Light abilities by up to 5%, in proportion to the severity of the target's wounds.
Rank 2:Increases the healing effects from your Restoring Light abilities by up to 10%, in proportion to the severity of the target's wounds.

Burning Light:

Gives you a 25% chance to cause an extra [x] Magic Damage any time you hit with an Aedric Spear ability.
Deals Physical Damage and scales with Weapon Damage, or deals Magic Damage and scales with Spell Damage, based on whichever is higher.
Gives you a 25% chance to cause an extra 2[x] Magic Damage any time you hit with an Aedric Spear ability.
Deals Physical Damage and scales with Weapon Damage, or deals Magic Damage and scales with Spell Damage, based on whichever is higher.

Burning Heart:

Rank 1:Increases healing received by 6% while a Draconic ability is active.
Rank 2: Increases healing received by 12% while a Draconic ability is active.

Helping Hands:

Activating an Earthen Heart ability restores 2% Stamina
Activating an Earthen Heart ability restores 5% Stamina

Mountain's Blessing

Activating an Earthen Heart ability grants Minor Brutality to you and nearby allies, increasing Weapon Damage by 5% for 10 seconds.
If you are in combat, you also gain 2 Ultimate. This can only occur once every 6 seconds.
Activating an Earthen Heart ability grants Minor Brutality to you and nearby allies, increasing Weapon Damage by 5% for 20 seconds.
If you are in combat, you also gain 3 Ultimate. This can only occur once every 6 seconds.

Executioner:

Rank 1:Killing an enemy with an Assassination ability restores [x] Magicka over 6 seconds.
Rank 2:Killing an enemy with an Assassination ability restores 2[x] Magicka over 6 seconds.

Restoring Spirit: Activating a dawns wrath ability

Reduces Magicka, Stamina and Ultimate ability costs by 2%.
Reduces Magicka, Stamina and Ultimate ability costs by 4%.

Illuminate:

Grants Minor Sorcery to you and your group, increasing Spell Damage by 5% for 10 seconds.
Grants Minor Sorcery to you and your group, increasing Spell Damage by 5% for 20 seconds.

Blood Magic:

Rank 1:Hitting an enemy with a Dark Magic ability heals you for 4% Max Health.
Rank 2:Hitting an enemy with a Dark Magic ability heals you for 8% Max Health.

Persistence:

Rank 1:Increases the duration of Dark Magic abilities by 10% while using Dark Magic Abilities.
Rank 2:Increases the duration of Dark Magic abilities by 20% while using Dark Magic Abilities.

Exploitation:

Rank 1:Activating a Dark Magic ability grants Minor Prophecy to nearby allies, increasing Spell Critical by 657 for 10 seconds.
Rank 2: Activating a Dark Magic ability grants Minor Prophecy to nearby allies, increasing Spell Critical by 657 for 20 seconds.

Expert Summoner

Rank 1: Increases your Max Health by 4% if you have a Daedric Summoning pet active.
Rank 2: Increases your Max Health by 8% if you have a Daedric Summoning pet active.

Light Weaver:

Rank 1:Increases the duration of Restoring Aura by 10%
Healing Ritual grants 1 Ultimate to allies under 60% Health
Channeling Right of Passage grants 8580 bonus to your Armor.
Rank 2:Increases the duration of Restoring Aura by 20%
Healing Ritual grants 2 Ultimate to allies under 60% Health
Channeling Right of Passage grants 16500 bonus to your Armor.

Only Boost Specific Class Skills:

Warmth:

Damaging enemies with Ardent Flame abilities also reduces their movement speed by 15% for 2 seconds.
Damaging enemies with Ardent Flame abilities also reduces their movement speed by 30% for 4 seconds.

Enduring rays

Rank 1:Increases duration of your Sun Fire, Eclipse and Nova abilities by 15%.
Rank 2:Increases duration of your Sun Fire, Eclipse and Nova abilities by 30%.

Searing Heat:

Rank 1:Increases the duration of Fiery Breath, Searing Strike, and Dragonknight Standard abilities by 2 seconds.
Rank 2:Increases the damage of Fiery Breath, Searing Strike, and Dragonknight Standard abilities by 3% and the duration by 2 seconds.

Shadow Barrier:

Rank 1:Activating a Shadow ability grants you Major Ward and Major Resolve, increasing Spell Resistance and Physical Resistance by 5280 for 2 seconds. This duration is increased for each piece of Heavy Armor equipped.
Rank 2:Activating a Shadow ability grants you Major Ward and Major Resolve, increasing Spell Resistance and Physical Resistance by 5280 for 2 seconds. This duration is increased for each piece of Heavy Armor equipped.

Gain Ultimate only when using specified class ability:

Prism:

Rank 1: Activating a Dawn's Wrath ability grants 2 additional Ultimate. This can only occur once every 6 seconds.
Rank 2: Activating a Dawn's Wrath ability grants 3 additional Ultimate. This can only occur once every 6 seconds.

Transfer:

Rank 1: Activating a Siphoning ability grants 1 Ultimate. This effect has a 4 second cooldown.
Rank 2: Activating a Siphoning ability grants 2 Ultimate. This effect has a 4 second cooldown.

Catalyst:

Rank 1: After drinking a potion you gain 10 Ultimate.
Rank 2: After drinking a potion you gain 20 Ultimate.

When Activating an ultimate ability:
Battle Roar

Rank 1: Activating an Ultimate Restores Health, Magicka and Stamina in amounts increased by 35% of the Ultimate's cost.
Rank 2: Activating an Ultimate Restores Health, Magicka and Stamina in amounts increased by 70% of the Ultimate's cost.

Open with No Lock Gaining Generalized Boons:
Balanced Warrior:

Rank 1: Increases Weapon Damage by 3% and Spell Resistance by 1320.
Rank 2: Increases Weapon Damage by 6% and Spell Resistance by 2640.

World In Ruin:

Rank 1:Increases the damage of Flame and Poison area of effect abilities by 3%.
Rank 2:Increases the damage of Flame and Poison area of effect abilities by 6%.

Combustion:

Rank 1:Increases the damage of Burning and Poison status effects by 33%
Rank 2:Increases the damage of Burning and Poison status effects by 66%

Iron Skin:

Rank 1:Block an additional 5% damage
Rank 2:Block an additional 10% damage

Scaled Armor

Rank 1:Increases Spell Resistance by 1320
Rank 2:Increases Spell Resistance by 2640

Unholy Knowledge:

Rank 1:Reduces Magicka and Stamina costs for all abilities by 3%
Rank 2:Reduces Magicka and Stamina costs for all abilities by 5%.

Capacitor:

Rank 1:Increases Magicka Recovery by 5%.
Rank 2:Increases Magicka Recovery by 10%.

Energized:

Rank 1:Increases your Physical and Shock Damage by 3%.
Rank 2:Increases your Physical and Shock Damage by 5%.

Implosion

Rank 1:Whenever you deal Shock Damage you have a 3% chance to instantly disintegrate enemies under 15% Health, dealing [y] Shock Damage.
Whenever you deal Physical Damage you have a 3% chance to instantly pulverize enemies under 15% Health, dealing [y] Physical Damage.
Rank 2:Whenever you deal Shock Damage you have a 6% chance to instantly disintegrate enemies under 15% Health, dealing [y] Shock Damage.
Whenever you deal Physical Damage you have a 6% chance to instantly pulverize enemies under 15% Health, dealing [y] Physical Damage.

Refreshing Shadows:

Increases Stamina, Health and Magicka Regeneration by 7%.
Increases Stamina, Health and Magicka Regeneration by 15%.

Master Assassin:

Increases Weapon and Spell Damage while invisible or stealthed by 5%. The stun from the Crouch ability stuns for 100% longer.
Increases Weapon and Spell Damage while invisible or stealthed by 10%. The stun from the Crouch ability stuns for 100% longer.

Stance improving an specific class ability:
Sacred Ground:

Rank 1:While standing in your own Cleansing Ritual, Rune Focus, or Rite of Passage areas of effect and for up to 2 seconds after leaving them you gain Major Mending, increasing your healing done by 25%.
Enemies standing in your Cleansing Ritual, Rune Focus or Rite of Passage areas of effect have their Movement Speed Reduced by 15%
Rank 2:While standing in your own Cleansing Ritual, Rune Focus, or Rite of Passage areas of effect and for up to 4 seconds after leaving them you gain Major Mending, increasing your healing done by 25%.
Enemies standing in your Cleansing Ritual, Rune Focus or Rite of Passage areas of effect have their Movement Speed reduced by 30%.

Dark Shadows:

Rank 1: While standing in you own <insert Nightblade area of effects> and for 2 seconds after leaving them you gain Major Savagery, increasing your weapon criticals by 10%.
Enemies standing in your <insert Nightblade area of effects> have their Movement Speed Reduced by 15%
Rank 2: While standing in you own <insert Nightblade area of effects and for 4 seconds after leaving them you gain Major Savagery, increasing your weapon criticals by 10%.
Enemies standing in your <insert Nightblade area of effects> have their Movement Speed Reduced by 30%

Wrapping it up:
This system would be designed to add more replay-ability per character. It would add additional meaning and cost to the champion system. So Instead of spending all the champion points on the normal global increases. This system adds actual class specific tailoring. The result would be the player having to choose risk/reward choosing between how much they can pump up the normal Champion Point system we have now and still manage to tailor their class builds how they wish.They could also add Custom Ultimate Crafting but that is for some other day. I couldn't begin to imagine how to balance something like that.

susmitds · June 2016

So you want people to stack shields, cloak, leap and heal crazily with the same character? Nope.

Kalifas · June 2016

The idea is you would get to try different builds mixing skill lines. But you wouldn't get innate locked class attributes that make their definitive skill lines good as someone who stays within a class.

The concept is no different that the ability for each class to wield different armors, enchants, and weapons. Yes, those change the way the class plays but the class skills are usually more potent.

Why I had costs associated with experimenting. Max out on things and you do sub-optimal in other areas.

Avalon · June 2016

I like the classless system, just free up the trees, let players pick their own selection of 3 trees. ZOS can monitor which trees are picked more often/less often, and balance them from there... But, as it is, people make characters with certain expectations, and then, after putting a lot of work into that character, ZOS changes a few parts, and the character becomes broken or worse... So, then, the player tries respeccing, and maybe finds an OK way to play, but not nearly as fun... The way they have made the game, changing the dynamics, can easily screw over a class until next patch, or one after...

Classless system allows ZOS to manipulate trees, and the players can then spec out of those trees and into others... Instead of only having 3 trees, you have access to all 12 (can only pick 3 at any given time, though), so, just drop one, pick up a different one. It also allows ZOS to add new trees without trying to add new classes, which then have to be balanced all over...

Foxic · June 2016

All of these ideas have been proposed more or less a hundred times. And the majority always agrees that it would ruin the game. Instead of having 4 metas for each role you will just have 1 for each

Avalon · June 2016

TotallyNotVos wrote: »

All of these ideas have been proposed more or less a hundred times. And the majority always agrees that it would ruin the game. Instead of having 4 metas for each role you will just have 1 for each

Really? Because, I've been reading and finding that if you want a tank, you want X class/build, DPS? Y class/build, Healer? Z class/build... This changes from DLC to DLC, patch to patch... And there are 'alternatives', of course, because even if NB DPS gets needed, the character is still a NB, so the choices become starting a new toon, or try to make the best of it. So, yeah, you get 4 tanks (but only one is REALLY the best), 4 DPS (same), and healer (same)... The question then becomes, is it better to have a character with a class, that gets knocked to 4th best in the role you prefer to play, and then can do nothing to better your position... Or, to have 0 classes, and always have a way to be better at your chosen role.

I'd much prefer to always be able to enjoy my toon, rather than my ability to compete be completely up to the whims of ZOS due to being stuck in a class and no way to fix it...

Solariken · June 2016

I LOVE this idea! It dissolves the hyper-rigidity of classes AND adds a TON of longevity to the game via more deep character progression. This idea is the stuff of song and legend @ZOS_RichLambert.

My Stamplar is frothing at the mouth to replace that horrible Dawn's Wrath tree. :P

UltimaJoe777 · June 2016

In short this is another "drop the classes and let everyone have every skill line on any character" thread.

Morimizo · June 2016

This is a great concept;

--PVP would certainly be tougher, not instantly knowing what anyone's build was,

--Seems a great way to introduce new "classes," without actually making new classes in the traditional way,

--More choices for builds, yes please!

Not sure about learning EVERY skill/CP line though; I would institute a limit so that it was in line with the amount of skill lines now. For instance, a player should still be limited to 3 class lines, though I suppose you could always exchange ala respecing.

Avalon · June 2016

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

In short this is another "drop the classes and let everyone have every skill line on any character" thread.

Where did I say you could have access to 'every' tree? You still only get 3 trees, you just get the ability to choose 'which' 3 more freely. The original guy's idea? No clue, was too difficult to understand, at least for me. My concept is simple :-) but, no, you only get 3 trees.

UltimaJoe777 · June 2016

Avalon wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

In short this is another "drop the classes and let everyone have every skill line on any character" thread.

Where did I say you could have access to 'every' tree? You still only get 3 trees, you just get the ability to choose 'which' 3 more freely. The original guy's idea? No clue, was too difficult to understand, at least for me. My concept is simple :-) but, no, you only get 3 trees.

I'm perfectly happy with the way things are myself in terms of classes. Don't know why everyone feels the need to pick and mix or just have it all, makes for less variety and more cookie cutters.

Kalifas · June 2016

Morimizo wrote: »

This is a great concept;

--PVP would certainly be tougher, not instantly knowing what anyone's build was,

--Seems a great way to introduce new "classes," without actually making new classes in the traditional way,

--More choices for builds, yes please!

Not sure about learning EVERY skill/CP line though; I would institute a limit so that it was in line with the amount of skill lines now. For instance, a player should still be limited to 3 class lines, though I suppose you could always exchange ala respecing.

Well the reason you can level and learn every skill is to prevent the need to make a new characters to access different skill lines and repeat the 1-50 leveling run ad nauseum. Imagine if you had to do start over to equip heavy armor or two handed weapons. Is there a real reason for that other than re-visiting older no class specific story?

Kalifas · June 2016

Avalon wrote: »

TotallyNotVos wrote: »

All of these ideas have been proposed more or less a hundred times. And the majority always agrees that it would ruin the game. Instead of having 4 metas for each role you will just have 1 for each

Really? Because, I've been reading and finding that if you want a tank, you want X class/build, DPS? Y class/build, Healer? Z class/build... This changes from DLC to DLC, patch to patch... And there are 'alternatives', of course, because even if NB DPS gets needed, the character is still a NB, so the choices become starting a new toon, or try to make the best of it. So, yeah, you get 4 tanks (but only one is REALLY the best), 4 DPS (same), and healer (same)... The question then becomes, is it better to have a character with a class, that gets knocked to 4th best in the role you prefer to play, and then can do nothing to better your position... Or, to have 0 classes, and always have a way to be better at your chosen role.

I'd much prefer to always be able to enjoy my toon, rather than my ability to compete be completely up to the whims of ZOS due to being stuck in a class and no way to fix it...

That constant re-balancing is because of the current meta. When you lock skills behind certain archetypes, someone is always at an advantage or dis-advantage. They whine, certain class gets nerfed, rinse and repeat. No one wants to re-roll a character to be at the top of the game everytime a class becomes the flavor of the month. So I agree with you.

With an open skill line system you can't really argue about being at a dis-advantage as much. Because everyone has access to certain classes on one character. With an open passive system like I suggested, you can adjust playstyle to how you want to play on each character. Have a favorite class with two skill lines you love but wish a ice skill line was available? This is your fix.

Gidorick · June 2016

Ok... so I cleared my expectations @Kalifas . My auto knee-jerk reaction to the idea of classlessness in EOS is "NO!" but I wanted to give this concept a fair chance...

First of all... I absolutely LOVE the idea

Kalifas wrote: »

There will be quest lines with immersive story covering the journey of discovering all the skill lines of these constellations.

I imagine there is a "Master of Aedric Spear" somewhere in Tamriel that you must visit to unlock that specific skill line. The master will temporary unlock that skill for you to allow you to try the skills of that class. They will send you on a series of trials, one per skill, that will let you get the flavor of that particular skill. The last trial will unlock all the skills and have you using all the skills. Only after you complete all the trials are you allowed to continue adventuring with that skill line unlocked.

My biggest issue with the concept is that I wouldn't want the class system to have a similar UI to the champion system with constellation and such. I don't even think it should be tied into the Champion System. I think that would just confuse players.

While I personally LOVE the idea of consuming CPs and using CPs as a currency. Heck, I've even suggested it myself! That being said, I don't think it should be an addition to ESO. The CP system was designed to be shared among all characters. I don't know if there would eventually be problems with different characters having different number of CPs... or would spending a CP mean all your characters lose it too? If that's the case then perhaps I could get behind CPs being currency because we wouldn't want to enable the system to be abused.

By abused I mean players doing things like... go to a character, spend all the CPs they can so that their CP count is really low, allowing them to earn CPs really quickly on THAT character only to go spend those CPs on a higher level character. If it's the case that players will end up with different number of CPs per character and at that point why have CPs account wide, if they are going to be character specific anyway?

I think ZOS could come up with a different means by which players can choose their skill lines that works with the system that's already in place.

Many of the different passives and whatnot that you've suggested kind of sound like they would work as new Champion System stars, something I think would be a welcome addition to the Champion system in the future.

I think we would all welcome more morphs for our skills and more skill lines being added. Adding skill lines instead of classes would be a good way to add player variety and allow for true horizontal progression.

ZOS could allow players to unlock and level skills from ANY skill line but only allow us to have a certain number of class skills "active" at once. Maybe players up until level 10 only have the Vestige Skill. At level 10 the player unlocks a second skill tree. Level 25 unlocks a second skill tree. Level 40 unlocks a third skill tree and if ZOS ever allows us to level beyond level 50 we could unlock additional active skill trees at higher levels.

Also, having specific trees unlocked and active with other trees could also yield specific results. So a player who wants to focus their build will have access to specialized synergy skills. Perhaps different trees could have different synergies with other trees. Perhaps some trees have no synergies with specific trees. It would be up to the player to work within the system or against it!

I think you have the makings of a great idea here but I think you've gotten bogged down in percentages and specific effects. I applaud you for hashing it all out but I really don't think it's necessary to get the core concepts of the design across and I don't think the leveling system needs to be overhauled as much. ZOS could develop the leveling and unattach the Class skills from the rigidity of the class system without retooling everything to the extent to which you suggest.

Mostly, though, you've convinced me that this would be a good addition to ESO! I like the idea of each skill line being attainable individually and leveled separately allowing for more character customization.

One HUGE hurdle would be adding new class skill lines. ZOS would have to add the new skills for players who do not purchase the DLC because if they placed the skill line behind a paywall we would hear payers scream bloody murder because ESO would then cross the B2P line of acceptability.

Kalifas · June 2016

Gidorick wrote: »

Ok... so I cleared my expectations @Kalifas . My auto knee-jerk reaction to the idea of classlessness in EOS is "NO!" but I wanted to give this concept a fair chance...

First of all... I absolutely LOVE the idea

Kalifas wrote: »

There will be quest lines with immersive story covering the journey of discovering all the skill lines of these constellations.

I imagine there is a "Master of Aedric Spear" somewhere in Tamriel that you must visit to unlock that specific skill line. The master will temporary unlock that skill for you to allow you to try the skills of that class. They will send you on a series of trials, one per skill, that will let you get the flavor of that particular skill. The last trial will unlock all the skills and have you using all the skills. Only after you complete all the trials are you allowed to continue adventuring with that skill line unlocked.

My biggest issue with the concept is that I wouldn't want the class system to have a similar UI to the champion system with constellation and such. I don't even think it should be tied into the Champion System. I think that would just confuse players.

While I personally LOVE the idea of consuming CPs and using CPs as a currency. Heck, I've even suggested it myself! That being said, I don't think it should be an addition to ESO. The CP system was designed to be shared among all characters. I don't know if there would eventually be problems with different characters having different number of CPs... or would spending a CP mean all your characters lose it too? If that's the case then perhaps I could get behind CPs being currency because we wouldn't want to enable the system to be abused.

By abused I mean players doing things like... go to a character, spend all the CPs they can so that their CP count is really low, allowing them to earn CPs really quickly on THAT character only to go spend those CPs on a higher level character. If it's the case that players will end up with different number of CPs per character and at that point why have CPs account wide, if they are going to be character specific anyway?

I think ZOS could come up with a different means by which players can choose their skill lines that works with the system that's already in place.

Many of the different passives and whatnot that you've suggested kind of sound like they would work as new Champion System stars, something I think would be a welcome addition to the Champion system in the future.

I think we would all welcome more morphs for our skills and more skill lines being added. Adding skill lines instead of classes would be a good way to add player variety and allow for true horizontal progression.

ZOS could allow players to unlock and level skills from ANY skill line but only allow us to have a certain number of class skills "active" at once. Maybe players up until level 10 only have the Vestige Skill. At level 10 the player unlocks a second skill tree. Level 25 unlocks a second skill tree. Level 40 unlocks a third skill tree and if ZOS ever allows us to level beyond level 50 we could unlock additional active skill trees at higher levels.

Also, having specific trees unlocked and active with other trees could also yield specific results. So a player who wants to focus their build will have access to specialized synergy skills. Perhaps different trees could have different synergies with other trees. Perhaps some trees have no synergies with specific trees. It would be up to the player to work within the system or against it!

I think you have the makings of a great idea here but I think you've gotten bogged down in percentages and specific effects. I applaud you for hashing it all out but I really don't think it's necessary to get the core concepts of the design across and I don't think the leveling system needs to be overhauled as much. ZOS could develop the leveling and unattach the Class skills from the rigidity of the class system without retooling everything to the extent to which you suggest.

Mostly, though, you've convinced me that this would be a good addition to ESO! I like the idea of each skill line being attainable individually and leveled separately allowing for more character customization.

One HUGE hurdle would be adding new class skill lines. ZOS would have to add the new skills for players who do not purchase the DLC because if they placed the skill line behind a paywall we would hear payers scream bloody murder because ESO would then cross the B2P line of acceptability.

Well it wouldn't have to have the UI of the champion system. I would be fine if it the class selection UI was like Mortal Kombat lol.

mortal-kombat-x.jpg?w=720

Many of the different passives and what not that I've suggested kind of sound like they would work as new Champion System stars, something I think would be a welcome addition to the Champion system in the future. That is why I mentioned elite stars, and it could work if they made separate stars that are per character while the ones we have now are account wide.

Well yeah, we could only have so many active or passive skills at once due to the nature of the limited weapon swap. We might be able to learn 200 skills but we can only equip 10-12. I don't know if I like skills trees being locked behind levels then it becomes something like VR, VR is no bueno for people who like playing alts and advancing by persistence.

The reason why I said classes have more powerful synergies is for that very reason. If you could equip any skill from any class and have no penalty, everyone would just grab the most powerful stuff. Customization has a cost and playing within the rules of synergies and class grants you more substantial boons.

I am big fan of the B2P method. But I don't think anything beyond the base game should be free. The company has to make money somewhere and I think as long as you get what's promised in the base game then there shouldn't be a problem buying a DLC. It's like an expansion, who gets expansions for free without a subscription? The only game that does that as far as I know is Tera Online.

Glad you like my concept Gidorick!

Gidorick · June 2016

Kalifas wrote: »

Well it wouldn't have to have the UI of the champion system. I would be fine if it the class selection UI was like Mortal Kombat lol.

Many of the different passives and what not that I've suggested kind of sound like they would work as new Champion System stars, something I think would be a welcome addition to the Champion system in the future. That is why I mentioned elite stars, and it could work if they made separate stars that are per character while the ones we have now are account wide.

Well yeah, we could only have so many active or passive skills at once due to the nature of the limited weapon swap. We might be able to learn 200 skills but we can only equip 10-12. I don't know if I like skills trees being locked behind levels then it becomes something like VR, VR is no bueno for people who like playing alts and advancing by persistence.

The reason why I said classes have more powerful synergies is for that very reason. If you could equip any skill from any class and have no penalty, everyone would just grab the most powerful stuff. Customization has a cost and playing within the rules of synergies and class grants you more substantial boons.

I am big fan of the B2P method. But I don't think anything beyond the base game should be free. The company has to make money somewhere and I think as long as you get what's promised in the base game then there shouldn't be a problem buying a DLC. It's like an expansion, who gets expansions for free without a subscription? The only game that does that as far as I know is Tera Online.

Glad you like my concept Gidorick!

Champion System stars that are unlocked through Class Skill progression? You can only unlock those stars if you have upgraded a specific skill to a specific level? LOVE IT!

Heck... go further. Include Racial Stars too. Have specific stars in each constellation that are different depending on the race of the Character.

I think I may have misspoke (mistyped?) when discussing active trees. What I meant is that players should only be able to pull skills from a total number of Class Skill trees at once. I don't think a player should be able to have both bars full of 5 skills from 5 different skill lines with ultimates from 2 other skill lines. You would have access to the skills once you've unlocked that tree via the in-game mechanic, but if you can only actively use the skills from 3 different trees at a time.

A player could, from the start, go collect all the skill lines but they will only be able to use each line one at a time. Higher level characters would be able to use skills from more than one skill line. REALLY high level characters could use even more. The max would obviously be 12, because of the skill bar limit you mentioned. I just don't think that max should be available to everyone from the onset.

As for the synergies, I totally agree. Players should have benefits from sticking to a "template". This way players can become masters in their respective class or they could become a "Jack of all Classes" kind of character.

An little additional idea would be a sort of "class name generator". Imagine if each skill line had a series of words associated with that class and depending on the combination of skill lines you are actively using your "class" name changes. They could all be variations of the current and other class names from The Elder Scrolls. So.. if you chose the three specific skill lines that make Dragon Knight, you are a Dragon Knight. Change an active skill line and you become:

Dragon Scout
Dragon Warriror
Dragon Assassin
Daedra Knight
Lion Knight

You get the idea.

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Classes

Hmm... I was curious so I ran the numbers. If we were able to mix/match 3 the 12 skill lines of the 4 classes, we would get a total of 220 possible classes. If we add just one more skill line we would have a total of 286 possible combinations. If we were able to have 4 skill lines "active" at once (using the original 12 skill lines) we would have a total of 495 possible combinations of the skill lines.

dang.

This would also be an effective way to add the "class morph" skill lines suggested by @TheShadowScout because they could be added one at a time because they wouldn't be a morph of a specific class. Rather they would be another skill line available to everyone.

This would also be a REALLY effective way to add "martial arts" to ESO. One skill line for each martial arts style. The synergy would be if you learned and used more than one martial arts skill line at once. Literally Tamrielic Mixed Martial Arts.

You've got me exited about the prospects here, but I don't think we will ever see anything like this. With both the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood being passive skills only I don't see ZOS having the gonads to add full combat skill lines at any point through a DLC.

Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood not having any active skill really grinds my gears.

Kalifas · June 2016

Gidorick wrote: »

Champion System stars that are unlocked through Class Skill progression? You can only unlock those stars if you have upgraded a specific skill to a specific level? LOVE IT!

Heck... go further. Include Racial Stars too. Have specific stars in each constellation that are different depending on the race of the Character.

I think I may have misspoke (mistyped?) when discussing active trees. What I meant is that players should only be able to pull skills from a total number of Class Skill trees at once. I don't think a player should be able to have both bars full of 5 skills from 5 different skill lines with ultimates from 2 other skill lines. You would have access to the skills once you've unlocked that tree via the in-game mechanic, but if you can only actively use the skills from 3 different trees at a time.

A player could, from the start, go collect all the skill lines but they will only be able to use each line one at a time. Higher level characters would be able to use skills from more than one skill line. REALLY high level characters could use even more. The max would obviously be 12, because of the skill bar limit you mentioned. I just don't think that max should be available to everyone from the onset.

As for the synergies, I totally agree. Players should have benefits from sticking to a "template". This way players can become masters in their respective class or they could become a "Jack of all Classes" kind of character.

An little additional idea would be a sort of "class name generator". Imagine if each skill line had a series of words associated with that class and depending on the combination of skill lines you are actively using your "class" name changes. They could all be variations of the current and other class names from The Elder Scrolls. So.. if you chose the three specific skill lines that make Dragon Knight, you are a Dragon Knight. Change an active skill line and you become:
Dragon Scout

Dragon Warriror

Dragon Assassin

Daedra Knight

Lion Knight

You get the idea.

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Classes

Hmm... I was curious so I ran the numbers. If we were able to mix/match 3 the 12 skill lines of the 4 classes, we would get a total of 220 possible classes. If we add just one more skill line we would have a total of 286 possible combinations. If we were able to have 4 skill lines "active" at once (using the original 12 skill lines) we would have a total of 495 possible combinations of the skill lines.

dang.

This would also be an effective way to add the "class morph" skill lines suggested by @TheShadowScout because they could be added one at a time because they wouldn't be a morph of a specific class. Rather they would be another skill line available to everyone.

This would also be a REALLY effective way to add "martial arts" to ESO. One skill line for each martial arts style. The synergy would be if you learned and used more than one martial arts skill line at once. Literally Tamrielic Mixed Martial Arts.

You've got me exited about the prospects here, but I don't think we will ever see anything like this. With both the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood being passive skills only I don't see ZOS having the gonads to add full combat skill lines at any point through a DLC.

Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood not having any active skill really grinds my gears.

I came from an mmo called FFXI. And in that game you had to work for your class to be the best of the best with trials.

At every level cap raise you had to go on a quest usually a difficult fight to unlock your level.
You had a passive called guard that could only be raised by fighting alot and getting the crap pounded out of you. Guard was a physical damage reduction passive.
At level 50 which was halfway through your character levels you had to quest class specific armor which involved a very rewarding quest line.
There were powerful class specific weapon skills you had to quest, usually required fighting a tough enemy alone if no friends were around.
At endgame you began questing class specific gear tier 2.
You also began meriting, which is like champion points except it involved powering up class specific skills and passives.
Then you learned of this item called black belt which was the best monk accessory for years. To get it you had to either kill 3 world spawns which were incredibly difficult to solo, most people required groups of 6-18 people. The alternative was to enter an instance with 17 other players and pray to the gods you got the drop and the group didn't wipe.
Then you began questing zone specific monk accessories and gears which required groups unless you were really skilled.
Then you quested for class specific gear tier 3 and unique class weaponskills and abilities.

I say this because I want to see something like this in ESO but without all the time effort. It could take a casual a whole year to reach level cap in the game in vanilla.

For sure, even if you had 24 class lines unlocked. It would be wise to limit players to 3 class lines at a time and only be able to switch outside combat.

Maybe I wasn't clear. I meant that additional skill lines besides the initial 12 wouldn't be available to use until after reaching level 50 and finishing the main story line.

Or:

Evoker of Dragons= Ardent Flame, Draconic Powers, Daedric Summoning
Dragon's Hand= Draconic Powers, Earthen Fury, Assassination
Holy Dragon Knight= Draconic Powers, Ardent Flame, Aedric Spear

I wasn't really asking for the ability to harness more abilities at once. More so just to be able to spec from a list of say 12 classes and 100s of skills, with the caveat that I can only equip 3 skill lines at one time and can't switch in combat.

The mixing and matching would be more like titles for being the jack of all trades. While the actual classes would have class titles or description and the largest boons for sticking to one of the classes.

For example:

Be the class monk with the 3 skill lines I put forth.
I can equip 2 skills lines from monk and one from another like Dragon Knight Ardent Flame and be titled Monk of the flame.
Or I can equip 3 skills lines from 3 different skill lines and remain the vestige.

The first gets the largest/bestsynergies. The second gets less than the first but more than the third.

Mojmir · June 2016

to add on to the idea,if you stuck with the true class as we have now,maybe you could have specialization bonus over the pick and choose version.

TheShadowScout · June 2016

Personally I wish they might have made a different system from the start... I really would have liked if all skill lines were theoretically attainable for a new "vestige", though with diametrically opposed skill lines to prefent cookie-cutter builds. Like... take fire magic and you also lock out ice magic, take healing magic and lock out death magic, take aedric magic and lock out daedric magic... etc. As you might have been able to tell from my class morph idea, I like choices with meaning. I like having to decide between options for a character, and not being able to easily switch around like in some games...

I would especially have loved the idea of not starting with all your class skill lines, but picking them up as you choose throughout the story progression... finding the way to unlock them, etc. Some easy to find, some more difficult to acquire...

The idea of characters being limited as to how many skill lines they can drawn on dependingg on their progression is nifty as well, really nifty! I like that one, a lot!

...but I kinda doubt they would change it THAT much at this point (which is why I made my class morph idea as an "fourth skill line" add-on to the current class system).

I guess best we can hope for at this point is that they might really add some new skill lines, especially considering all the skills NPCs have displayed which players do not currently haver access to... (and yeah, that too was a thing that prompted me to my class morph idea)

The "CP as currency" idea is similar to the "burn CP" idea a certain someone once suggested (which I still think is a horrible idea, as "loosing" something gained through XP is very vexing...), but as mentioned, somewhat iffy through the account wide stuff - you cannot really have something account wide for "spending" on simgular characters (not to mention, as stated, spend on the main, earn on the alt would be an issue).
The "stars unlock per skills" idea is nice as well, though somewhat ineffective, since people would pretty much be certain to spend their CP on the stuff that matches their used skills...
In casus champion system, I personally would love more choices though, and choices that have meaning. Like I also once suggested, have sub-stars with an "pick one among the choices to spend CP on" mechanic.
BtW, I do love the idea of an "racial" star... with effects that differ depending on race...
Also, there -could- be special stars added that do not give a certain bonus per champion point put into them, but cost a certain amount of champion points to gain their effect... and the effect might just be unlocking a new skill line, yes?

IMO, they should switch the system from the current three part into a four part, expanding the cap by a third, and having one "neutral" constellation around the current champion system where they could play with new stars ideas that might be having effects outside the current "warrior-mage-thief" setup...

Gidorick · June 2016

TheShadowScout wrote: »

The "CP as currency" idea is similar to the "burn CP" idea a certain someone once suggested (which I still think is a horrible idea, as "loosing" something gained through XP is very vexing...), but as mentioned, somewhat iffy through the account wide stuff - you cannot really have something account wide for "spending" on simgular characters (not to mention, as stated, spend on the main, earn on the alt would be an issue).

I've actually come around to agree with you @TheShadowScout .

while I personally would like the consumption of CPS (I'm kind of a masochist in that way.

), I don't think it would work in ESO because it would change the Champion system too much. CPs being shared would create all sorts of problems. The CP system would have to be changed dramatically to not be shared and detached from all gear.

I did recently retool that CP active passive bar idea in this thread: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/273137/beyond-level-50-an-endgame-leveling-concept

TheShadowScout wrote: »

IMO, they should switch the system from the current three part into a four part, expanding the cap by a third, and having one "neutral" constellation around the current champion system where they could play with new stars ideas that might be having effects outside the current "warrior-mage-thief" setup...

Would the neutral constellation be the serpent?

TheShadowScout · June 2016

Gidorick wrote: »

Would the neutral constellation be the serpent?

That would make sense, would it not? And I could easily see the serpent constellation added to the current setup... most likely coiled in the middle, with the overwiev moved to some screen corner(s)...

Kalifas · June 2016

Gidorick wrote: »

TheShadowScout wrote: »

The "CP as currency" idea is similar to the "burn CP" idea a certain someone once suggested (which I still think is a horrible idea, as "loosing" something gained through XP is very vexing...), but as mentioned, somewhat iffy through the account wide stuff - you cannot really have something account wide for "spending" on simgular characters (not to mention, as stated, spend on the main, earn on the alt would be an issue).

I've actually come around to agree with you @TheShadowScout . while I personally would like the consumption of CPS (I'm kind of a masochist in that way. ), I don't think it would work in ESO because it would change the Champion system too much. CPs being shared would create all sorts of problems. The CP system would have to be changed dramatically to not be shared and detached from all gear.

I did recently retool that CP active passive bar idea in this thread: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/273137/beyond-level-50-an-endgame-leveling-concept

TheShadowScout wrote: »

IMO, they should switch the system from the current three part into a four part, expanding the cap by a third, and having one "neutral" constellation around the current champion system where they could play with new stars ideas that might be having effects outside the current "warrior-mage-thief" setup...

Would the neutral constellation be the serpent?

If there is no concept of loss then there is no rewarding gain. This is why The Champion System is all muffed up. We have people stacking everything because there is no penalty to overstacking.

The CP system would not have to change too much. Just make two sets of Champion UI or stars. One is account wide and the other is character bound.

Tekyn · June 2016

That sounds amazing. Not only would it open up the skills, it would add a lot of content in the form of quests to learn them. It could even be done incrementally in the little bite-sized chunks ZoS loves so much.

Also, THF/NIN reporting in.