Damage in PvP

tplink3r1

Zheg wrote: »

But fengrush keeps saying damage is too low. I sense a disturbance in the streamer force.

Damage is high, but the heals are also too high.

Father_X_Zombie

That last part was priceless

Mako1132

tplink3r1 wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

But fengrush keeps saying damage is too low. I sense a disturbance in the streamer force.

Damage is high, but the heals are also too high.

I don't think that's an argument. Zheg is just poking at a subsection of the game that would rather see healing gone from the game because they find it odd they can't 1-button spam everyone to death in a timely fashion.

Lokey0024

I just think low health healing scaling with strength of the heal is kind of over powered. Kinda falls into the catagory of shield spam. CC is never long enough to keep BoL spam from saving someone close to death unless its alot of burst from multiple targets. Promotes dumb gameplay with a shallow learning curve. Why would you worry about low health if you heal for 12k+ in 1 second and could do so repeatedly?

Ffastyl

While not about ESO it does apply.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhhDjRRnHFk

ESO's combat really shines when resource management comes into play. Resources become a larger concern with a high TTK, although the Champion System currently threatens to make resources pseudo-infinite for most builds. We currently see a high priority on numbers in battle outcomes, but ESO had ways to cope with the "Tank Principle" in the past.

The "Tank Principle" was nullified in v1.0 - v1.5 by a dynamic ultimate system and the resource management aspect of combat. Instead of getting a generation buff for using basic attacks, players would earn a small, flat amount of ultimate for performing certain actions such as successfully blocking. These ultimate gains had no cooldown, so the more enemies fought simultaneously, the faster ultimate generated. While the system had its flaws (namely rewarding critical hits, creating a vast divide in generation rate between builds), it effectively made players more powerful the more opponents they faced, almost nullifying the numbers advantage.

Resource management, on the other hand, made outlasting opponents a more viable strategy. It is still possible now, but to greatly reduced effect due to damage and healing being tied together (making defensive builds overall less effective) and the aforementioned Champion System. By building to manage resources efficiently, a player could win a 1v2 or 1v3 engagement by exhausting his or her opponents.

The higher TTK and above mechanics created an environment where skill had the highest influence on battle outcomes. A numbers advantage worked against similarly skilled players, but was nullified by properly prepared and experienced players. Maintaining the effectiveness of numbers on the battlefield is a concern for match based game modes, however ESO's open world fighting makes guaranteeing evenly numbered teams impossible, so the importance of numbers needs to be low.

Using some of the overpowered combinations of the game version, it was possible for one player to hold an entire raid of low skill combatants at a choke point such as a gate. The build in general was a high critical chance, Dunmer vampire Dragonknight, using either Standard of Might or Clouding Swarm in conjunction with Dark Talons for keeping enemies within these ultimates' area of effect. Combining the increased ultimate generation rate of constant critical hits and fighting superior numbers, these ultimates could have constant up time which in turn allowed said build to have limitless resources (through Battle Roar) and hold a group down. In more open terrain and/or with a more balanced build, a high skill player was capable of holding down six low skill players - the AoE cap - at most. Against high skill players it was better to fight 1v1 with another high skill player or send a well coordinated group than throw zergs at the enemy.

Ffastyl

Lokey0024 wrote: »

I just think low health healing scaling with strength of the heal is kind of over powered. Kinda falls into the catagory of shield spam. CC is never long enough to keep BoL spam from saving someone close to death unless its alot of burst from multiple targets. Promotes dumb gameplay with a shallow learning curve. Why would you worry about low health if you heal for 12k+ in 1 second and could do so repeatedly?

This is why I advocate for reducing player power as opposed to increasing the base line as Sypher suggests. When both damage and healing are low (relative to now), Health moves more slowly in both directions. Players have a chance to respond to ambushes but also cannot restore themselves to full from low Health.

Zheg

Lokey0024 wrote: »

I just think low health healing scaling with strength of the heal is kind of over powered. Kinda falls into the catagory of shield spam. CC is never long enough to keep BoL spam from saving someone close to death unless its alot of burst from multiple targets. Promotes dumb gameplay with a shallow learning curve. Why would you worry about low health if you heal for 12k+ in 1 second and could do so repeatedly?

Malubeth aside, 12k is closer to a crit from a magplar or a regular heal from a full CP specced out healer. Your number is a bit exaggerated. Besides the fact that there are tons of heal debuff options available now, and despite the fact that breath is one of the most expensive skills in the game and all of your dps skills should be cheaper and win in a battle of resource management, cyrodiil is open world mass pvp - not purely designed around 1v1 duels. Furthermore some classes are just better at countering specific classes. In every other mmo in existence it's difficult to kill the healer class solo in pvp, why people think this should be different for ESO is beyond me. There are plenty of times when I could never kill a sorc as a magplar because harness just soaked up all my magicka based damage and it just ended in a stalement. Whatever. Not every matchup is ideal, you should never be able to pwn everything.

I also very much disagree with your assessment of burst - there are many players that have little trouble bursting down templars.

Also, just as an aside, from what everyone has been saying, once you reach 40% hp you're instantly dead because of jesus beam. Why are we even bothering to talk about low health?

Mako1132

Lokey0024 wrote: »

I just think low health healing scaling with strength of the heal is kind of over powered. Kinda falls into the catagory of shield spam. CC is never long enough to keep BoL spam from saving someone close to death unless its alot of burst from multiple targets. Promotes dumb gameplay with a shallow learning curve. Why would you worry about low health if you heal for 12k+ in 1 second and could do so repeatedly?

Damn how do Templars ever die plz nerf zos

Lokey0024

Zheg wrote: »

Lokey0024 wrote: »

I just think low health healing scaling with strength of the heal is kind of over powered. Kinda falls into the catagory of shield spam. CC is never long enough to keep BoL spam from saving someone close to death unless its alot of burst from multiple targets. Promotes dumb gameplay with a shallow learning curve. Why would you worry about low health if you heal for 12k+ in 1 second and could do so repeatedly?

Malubeth aside, 12k is closer to a crit from a magplar or a regular heal from a full CP specced out healer. Your number is a bit exaggerated. Besides the fact that there are tons of heal debuff options available now, and despite the fact that breath is one of the most expensive skills in the game and all of your dps skills should be cheaper and win in a battle of resource management, cyrodiil is open world mass pvp - not purely designed around 1v1 duels. Furthermore some classes are just better at countering specific classes. In every other mmo in existence it's difficult to kill the healer class solo in pvp, why people think this should be different for ESO is beyond me. There are plenty of times when I could never kill a sorc as a magplar because harness just soaked up all my magicka based damage and it just ended in a stalement. Whatever. Not every matchup is ideal, you should never be able to pwn everything.

I also very much disagree with your assessment of burst - there are many players that have little trouble bursting down templars.

Also, just as an aside, from what everyone has been saying, once you reach 40% hp you're instantly dead because of jesus beam. Why are we even bothering to talk about low health?

Zheg, once again, good job over generalizing and remaining the Switzerland of discussion.

Yea, more then NBs and Templars play this game. According to "general Zos consensus" balancing these two around each other is how it should be. You have to really screw up as a magplar to die to any class besides a NB. Jabs are hitting 3k a strike on 2400 impen(broken?!) and radiant is strong execute that cant be rolly pollied.

Zheg

Lokey0024 wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Lokey0024 wrote: »

I just think low health healing scaling with strength of the heal is kind of over powered. Kinda falls into the catagory of shield spam. CC is never long enough to keep BoL spam from saving someone close to death unless its alot of burst from multiple targets. Promotes dumb gameplay with a shallow learning curve. Why would you worry about low health if you heal for 12k+ in 1 second and could do so repeatedly?

Malubeth aside, 12k is closer to a crit from a magplar or a regular heal from a full CP specced out healer. Your number is a bit exaggerated. Besides the fact that there are tons of heal debuff options available now, and despite the fact that breath is one of the most expensive skills in the game and all of your dps skills should be cheaper and win in a battle of resource management, cyrodiil is open world mass pvp - not purely designed around 1v1 duels. Furthermore some classes are just better at countering specific classes. In every other mmo in existence it's difficult to kill the healer class solo in pvp, why people think this should be different for ESO is beyond me. There are plenty of times when I could never kill a sorc as a magplar because harness just soaked up all my magicka based damage and it just ended in a stalement. Whatever. Not every matchup is ideal, you should never be able to pwn everything.

I also very much disagree with your assessment of burst - there are many players that have little trouble bursting down templars.

Also, just as an aside, from what everyone has been saying, once you reach 40% hp you're instantly dead because of jesus beam. Why are we even bothering to talk about low health?

Zheg, once again, good job over generalizing and remaining the Switzerland of discussion.

Yea, more then NBs and Templars play this game. According to "general Zos consensus" balancing these two around each other is how it should be. You have to really screw up as a magplar to die to any class besides a NB. Jabs are hitting 3k a strike on 2400 impen(broken?!) and radiant is strong execute that cant be rolly pollied.

It's sweeps on a magplar, and that would mean you're getting hit by 3k, 3k, 3k, 4.2k strikes ... 13.2k in total ... with 2400 impen. I'm going to call bullsh3t on that. Actually, I'm going to shout bullsh3t on that.

There are multiple sets you can use for heal debuffs, you can use reverb bash, and you can use poisons now. You may choose not to and be strong against another matchup in pvp, but do not insinuate you cannot combat heals in this game.

Derra

I don´t agree with the topic at all @Sypher

Currently the whole game revolves around major vitality + major mending with maybe added malubeth on top of that.
It´s a problem when the once thought strongest 1v1/1vX defense (stacking shields on a sorcerer) is what is now defacto the easiest to kill because how absurdly strong healing for every build utilizing the right potion + monster set has become.

The only possibility to kill the current tank meta builds with major mending/vitality + malu + heavy armor is to burst fast and hard enough before the beam proccs because outdmging the selfhealing is not possible neither on stamina nor magica targets.

Raising basedmg will change nothing about this (except for the case where you buff everyones basedmg to an amount where you´re able to do 25k+ dmg in one or two seconds on heavyarmor impen targets).


Imo major mending should be as accessible as major berserk (which is almost nonexistant in the current game). Major vitality should never have been introduced (especially no by drinking a potion - i mean who else than mr. W could have thought this was a good idea). Malubeth should maybe have it´s proccchance increased significantly but only provide something like minor mending.

From there on they could balance sustain and IF damage would still be a problem afterwards they could aim to raise basedmg to be able to outpace selfhealing.

Mako1132

Lokey0024 wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Lokey0024 wrote: »

I just think low health healing scaling with strength of the heal is kind of over powered. Kinda falls into the catagory of shield spam. CC is never long enough to keep BoL spam from saving someone close to death unless its alot of burst from multiple targets. Promotes dumb gameplay with a shallow learning curve. Why would you worry about low health if you heal for 12k+ in 1 second and could do so repeatedly?

Malubeth aside, 12k is closer to a crit from a magplar or a regular heal from a full CP specced out healer. Your number is a bit exaggerated. Besides the fact that there are tons of heal debuff options available now, and despite the fact that breath is one of the most expensive skills in the game and all of your dps skills should be cheaper and win in a battle of resource management, cyrodiil is open world mass pvp - not purely designed around 1v1 duels. Furthermore some classes are just better at countering specific classes. In every other mmo in existence it's difficult to kill the healer class solo in pvp, why people think this should be different for ESO is beyond me. There are plenty of times when I could never kill a sorc as a magplar because harness just soaked up all my magicka based damage and it just ended in a stalement. Whatever. Not every matchup is ideal, you should never be able to pwn everything.

I also very much disagree with your assessment of burst - there are many players that have little trouble bursting down templars.

Also, just as an aside, from what everyone has been saying, once you reach 40% hp you're instantly dead because of jesus beam. Why are we even bothering to talk about low health?

Zheg, once again, good job over generalizing and remaining the Switzerland of discussion.

Yea, more then NBs and Templars play this game. According to "general Zos consensus" balancing these two around each other is how it should be. You have to really screw up as a magplar to die to any class besides a NB. Jabs are hitting 3k a strike on 2400 impen(broken?!) and radiant is strong execute that cant be rolly pollied.

I wouldn't cry about how much impen you have when it comes to jabs/sweeps. Templars have 10% crit damage in that tree iirc.

Ghost-Shot

Mako1132 wrote: »

Lokey0024 wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Lokey0024 wrote: »

I just think low health healing scaling with strength of the heal is kind of over powered. Kinda falls into the catagory of shield spam. CC is never long enough to keep BoL spam from saving someone close to death unless its alot of burst from multiple targets. Promotes dumb gameplay with a shallow learning curve. Why would you worry about low health if you heal for 12k+ in 1 second and could do so repeatedly?

Malubeth aside, 12k is closer to a crit from a magplar or a regular heal from a full CP specced out healer. Your number is a bit exaggerated. Besides the fact that there are tons of heal debuff options available now, and despite the fact that breath is one of the most expensive skills in the game and all of your dps skills should be cheaper and win in a battle of resource management, cyrodiil is open world mass pvp - not purely designed around 1v1 duels. Furthermore some classes are just better at countering specific classes. In every other mmo in existence it's difficult to kill the healer class solo in pvp, why people think this should be different for ESO is beyond me. There are plenty of times when I could never kill a sorc as a magplar because harness just soaked up all my magicka based damage and it just ended in a stalement. Whatever. Not every matchup is ideal, you should never be able to pwn everything.

I also very much disagree with your assessment of burst - there are many players that have little trouble bursting down templars.

Also, just as an aside, from what everyone has been saying, once you reach 40% hp you're instantly dead because of jesus beam. Why are we even bothering to talk about low health?

Zheg, once again, good job over generalizing and remaining the Switzerland of discussion.

Yea, more then NBs and Templars play this game. According to "general Zos consensus" balancing these two around each other is how it should be. You have to really screw up as a magplar to die to any class besides a NB. Jabs are hitting 3k a strike on 2400 impen(broken?!) and radiant is strong execute that cant be rolly pollied.

I wouldn't cry about how much impen you have when it comes to jabs/sweeps. Templars have 10% crit damage in that tree iirc.

Applies to all abilities as long as an Aedric Spear ability is slotted.

tplink3r1

Mako1132 wrote: »

tplink3r1 wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

But fengrush keeps saying damage is too low. I sense a disturbance in the streamer force.

Damage is high, but the heals are also too high.

I don't think that's an argument. Zheg is just poking at a subsection of the game that would rather see healing gone from the game because they find it odd they can't 1-button spam everyone to death in a timely fashion.

You are right, that was a statement. And yours is also not an argument, its a strawman.

Mako1132

tplink3r1 wrote: »

Mako1132 wrote: »

tplink3r1 wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

But fengrush keeps saying damage is too low. I sense a disturbance in the streamer force.

Damage is high, but the heals are also too high.

I don't think that's an argument. Zheg is just poking at a subsection of the game that would rather see healing gone from the game because they find it odd they can't 1-button spam everyone to death in a timely fashion.

You are right, that was a statement. And yours is also not an argument, its a strawman.

Maybe I worded it incorrectly. There was no one in this thread arguing what you said. At least Zheg wasn't judging from the quote, or myself. Your next English pop quiz will be at 5pm EDT. Come prepared with a no.2 pencil next time.

Francescolg

Templars, except they spam purifying ritual (but most don't..!), Templars are no problem at all for my stamina nb..
On my bow I got disease damage (on a weapon with increased proc chance) + snipe (longest range skill ig), thus this two skills debuff nearly 50% healing (every few seconds). As soon as the Templar is CC'd, simply burst them down (ultimate, special skills, etc.) and most Templars will go down. Even if they CC break, they can not use their heal immediately but they've to purify+heal, or similar, while any NB (even the ones with soso-equipment) can burst for 30k dmg (ultimate + special skill + animation cancelling, or re-enter stealth, heavy attack).

Last not least, if the Templar has max, or near-max mitigation, it's not a full heal-spec but a tank. Tanky builds are a special thing, which any class can choose to play and if they have strong heals, they lack somewhere else and Tanky-builds need special treatment, that is when skill comes into play (search the forums for advice vs. Tanky-healers. Very often: if you can't kill them, they can't kill you = high-HP/sustainable builds)

frozywozy

Here is how I see it.

First of all, before we even consider removing battle spirit or reintroducing soft caps, there are major things to address.

CHAMPION POINTS SYSTEM

The Champion points system should be revamped entirely. We should not be able to increase survivability / sustain / damage with the champion system. At least not as direct as it is with the current mechanics. It should only give UTILITY options. For example, you could get a CP that increase the range of your aoes, a CP that increase the snare of your abilities, a CP that increase the chances to root people using frost abilities, a CP that increase the CC immunity duration, a CP that increase your run speed, a CP that increase your stealth detection, etc. This being said, I think that several abilities and passives should not apply snares. Snares should be a unique mechanic that sacrifice alot of damage to be possible.

GEAR SETS

The stats that increase weapon damage or spell damage should be entirely removed from all the sets in the game. At least from the first 4pieces set bonuses. This would give more variety and more gear options.

WEAPON/SPELL DAMAGE SCALING

As @Armitas pointed it out, weapon and spell damage should NOT determine both your damage and healing potential. I've been saying this for months now. There should be a different stat to determine your healing potential totally independent from your damage. This would entirely counter what we see nowadays when people can literally one shot you with one opening or recover back from 10% hps to full in a second with burst heals.

This being said, the only way to increase your damage/sustain/survivability should be by the weapons, jewellery (traits + enchants) you use, the armor tree you pick, by upgrading your gear to yellow and with passives. Your damage output should NOT be determined by the way you attribute your champion points, the way you use specific sets of gear that increase damage/sustain, or by the amount of magicka or stamina you have.

Makkir

if they keep dmg this high then get rid of the cheese CC like fears that dont break on dmg. Maybe give hard CC to a very specific class/role so it enourages diverse group play.

danno8

Another possible solution to the problem is more varied stats. Things like +healing power, and + healing crit for example that helps to further separate high damage builds from high survivability builds. Right now stacking main stat nets you not only great damage, but also great healing and shields.

Force people to spread those bonuses around unless they want to TRULY be glass cannon with no sustain/defense.

Armitas

What do you think about this for lowering the high hand?

The main problem is parallel sustain/survival/damage scaling. Here is one way to make that perpendicular.

Damage - Scales from weapon/spell power and scales with stamina and magicka at 1/3 of it's current rate. Lower the effect of cost reduction and recovery in the CP tree. Make Magicka and stamina give recovery at a low rate. So that you are forced to recoup your recovery at the cost of weapon/spell power.

Shields - Scales from health only. Hardened Ward continues to scale from Max Magicka which is now an inefficient damage source. (Kena)

Healing - No longer scales with weapon/spell power. Scales from max magicka and stamina at ~133%% of it's current rate. (% is approximate and intended to represent a value that retains group healing capacity. )

Blocking/Dodging - Dodge roll and block continue to consume stamina. Dodge roll reduction is removed from medium armor. Block and dodge have their cost reduced based on max health.

KenaPKK

Been watching this thread scratching my head.

We're not going to get a significant change out of ZOS anytime soon, especially one which affects PvE land. Let's work with what we have and change what we can change now in the hopes that ZOS becomes open to some changes down the road.

See you all in Azura's. PvP feels sooooo much better there. Sustain isn't infinite, damage is more moderate, no one is unkillable, my sorc shields even feel fine. In my honest opinion, it's where all serious PvPers should be.

Outer_Rim

KenaPKK wrote: »

Been watching this thread scratching my head.

We're not going to get a significant change out of ZOS anytime soon, especially one which affects PvE land. Let's work with what we have and change what we can change now in the hopes that ZOS becomes open to some changes down the road.

See you all in Azura's. PvP feels sooooo much better there. Sustain isn't infinite, damage is more moderate, no one is unkillable, my sorc shields even feel fine. In my honest opinion, it's where all serious PvPers should be.

Just sounds to me like your group was getting stomped as it normally does and you ran to go stomp on people that can't even break cc, but aye keep that serious pvp going. Ya good?

Soris

Armitas wrote: »

What do you think about this for lowering the high hand?

The main problem is perpendicular sustain/survival/damage scaling. Here is one way to make that perpendicular.

Damage - Scales from weapon/spell power and scales with stamina and magicka at 1/3 of it's current rate. Lower the effect of cost reduction and recovery in the CP tree. Make Magicka and stamina give recovery at a low rate. So that you are forced to recoup your recovery at the cost of weapon/spell power.

Shields - Scales from health only

Healing - No longer scales with weapon/spell power. Scales from max magicka and stamina at ~133%% of it's current rate. (% is approximate and intended to represent a value the retains group healing capacity. )

Blocking/Dodging - Dodge roll and block continue to consume stamina. Dodge roll reduction is removed from medium armor. Block and dodge have their cost reduced based on max health.

Perfection if only one thing you add there. Remove block nerf for heavy armor!
In addition, @frozywozy summed it up pretty well with his CP system idea.

I myself still think there should be softcaps and no battle spirit. Plus, there should be higher chances to get yellow upgrade materials and lower prices. Nowadays making a new build from scratch costs millions of gold and time.

Ffastyl

Soris wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

What do you think about this for lowering the high hand?

The main problem is perpendicular sustain/survival/damage scaling. Here is one way to make that perpendicular.

Damage - Scales from weapon/spell power and scales with stamina and magicka at 1/3 of it's current rate. Lower the effect of cost reduction and recovery in the CP tree. Make Magicka and stamina give recovery at a low rate. So that you are forced to recoup your recovery at the cost of weapon/spell power.

Shields - Scales from health only

Healing - No longer scales with weapon/spell power. Scales from max magicka and stamina at ~133%% of it's current rate. (% is approximate and intended to represent a value the retains group healing capacity. )

Blocking/Dodging - Dodge roll and block continue to consume stamina. Dodge roll reduction is removed from medium armor. Block and dodge have their cost reduced based on max health.

Perfection if only one thing you add there. Remove block nerf for heavy armor!
In addition, @frozywozy summed it up pretty well with his CP system idea.

I myself still think there should be softcaps and no battle spirit. Plus, there should be higher chances to get yellow upgrade materials and lower prices. Nowadays making a new build from scratch costs millions of gold and time.

Temper rates aside, battle spirit is required because balance is lacking. You can check post #35 for what battle spirit has been through the years. Soft caps are much needed but the removal of battle spirit (the gateway to open world PvP) requires more tweaking than that. But without soft caps, @Armitas's concept seems like a great starting point.

Soris

Ffastyl wrote: »

Soris wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

What do you think about this for lowering the high hand?

The main problem is perpendicular sustain/survival/damage scaling. Here is one way to make that perpendicular.

Damage - Scales from weapon/spell power and scales with stamina and magicka at 1/3 of it's current rate. Lower the effect of cost reduction and recovery in the CP tree. Make Magicka and stamina give recovery at a low rate. So that you are forced to recoup your recovery at the cost of weapon/spell power.

Shields - Scales from health only

Healing - No longer scales with weapon/spell power. Scales from max magicka and stamina at ~133%% of it's current rate. (% is approximate and intended to represent a value the retains group healing capacity. )

Blocking/Dodging - Dodge roll and block continue to consume stamina. Dodge roll reduction is removed from medium armor. Block and dodge have their cost reduced based on max health.

Perfection if only one thing you add there. Remove block nerf for heavy armor!
In addition, @frozywozy summed it up pretty well with his CP system idea.

I myself still think there should be softcaps and no battle spirit. Plus, there should be higher chances to get yellow upgrade materials and lower prices. Nowadays making a new build from scratch costs millions of gold and time.

Temper rates aside, battle spirit is required because balance is lacking. You can check post #35 for what battle spirit has been through the years. Soft caps are much needed but the removal of battle spirit (the gateway to open world PvP) requires more tweaking than that. But without soft caps, @Armitas's concept seems like a great starting point.

The percentage cut on damage and healing is the reason why there is balance problems. I'm not saying tweak that number, but remove it completely and implement soft caps with higher rates than what we have in 1.5.
That way you control the high burst stacked builds to stack damage beyond recognition, but give a chance to "normal" builds to do some damage without cutting their damage 50%.

You cant go extreme. They are balancing the game for extreme builds since 1.6. They cant ignore these builds because if they do, game will go crazy. So they balance them. But that affect those "normal" builds more than it affect those extreme builds. Problem is right here. And you can solve this by adding softcaps again. Like OP explained in video, you(they) should reduce the gap between high and low. Softcaps are safest and easiest way to do this.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

How to fix Damage in PvP by moving forward instead of backward.
The reason there is so much lack of diversity is a combination of the champion system, and the fact that your resource pools (magicka and stamina) have such a HUGE effect on your damage, shields, and heals. Battle spirit effectively makes certain abilities useless in PvP because after they get halved, they are worth next to nothing. Shielded assault is a good example. So people focus their builds around heavy hitting skills, heals and shields that are still strong even after the 50% nerf. Removing battle spirit would go a long way in balancing out damage but then certain abilities would hit too hard due to no soft caps, so how do we do it?

What happens if we reduce, remove, or cap the effect Stamina and Magicka Pools have on tooltip damage and then also remove battle spirit?

Warning: Quick and dirty estimations with fudge-factor coefficients to simplify the damage calculation formula. Tested against observed values to be within +/- 10 of the observed tooltip damage. PM me if you want me to show more work.

Test subject: 300CP Redguard Sorcerer on PTS. No CP into Mighty, medium armor passives, sorc passives, or anything that modifies the damage tool-tip other than max stam and weapon damage.

Without any gear, any champion points assigned, and no weapon or weapon damage, we get this:


We will set uppercut 1191 damage as our base level for simplicity. Now lets keep weapon damage at 0 and add stamina. Adding +stam gear (hawks eye, darkstride etc), 64 attribute points into stamina (64*111=7,104 extra stam), 100 CP into green tree (another 3,735 stamina), redguard passive 10% stam, bound armaments 8% stam, and health/stam food (4500 stam).


So with over 42k Stamina, we get a 6.3k tooltip, over 5 times more than the damage we got with only 8k stamina and we have no weapon damage or weapon whatsoever. Note that this still gets halved by battle spirit.

Now lets look at weapon damage holding stamina constant. Removing all extra stam back to the base value (7958) and adding a gold nirnhoned greatsword.

Notice that with 0 weapon damage coming from sets or buffs, your weapon's damage becomes your weapon damage AND spell damage. For example, an iron weapon that has 198 damage will give you 198 weapon damage. Here are a few examples over a range of values.


As you can see, without the battle spirit de-buff, these are decent values for uppercut. Remember that this is without 12% extra weapon damage from agility medium armor passive, without heavy weapons passive 8% and without empower (20%). If you wanted to run a gank build with 4000 base weapon damage (4480 with agility) using all those buffs, a buffed strike would hit for 8206*1.05*1.20=10339 over 10k before armor mitigation.

Now lets put both of these values together. Lets take a typical stam build with about 35k stamina and 2.5k weapon damage.
Here is a redguard running food wearing Hundings + agility + masters/malestrom greatsword.


Lets breakdown the tooltip to see where the damage comes from.

With this common setup, more of the tooltip damage is contributed by the stamina pool than the weapon damage.
1191+4050+3864=9105

After battle spirit, the damage would be 9105/2=4553. If we had no battle spirit, and the effect your resource pool was capped at base value, you would have 1191+3864=5055. So the base damage of the skill has a much greater effect on damage (24% instead of 13%).


This would help flatten the range of damage achievable in PvP which will help lesser used skills and also make hybrid builds viable again. Pelenial's Aptitude would be an amazing set with this cap system, no CP, and no battle spirit.

I haven't tested this for shields and heals but I expect similar results. Note that you don't fully remove attributes effect on damage, heals and shields, you just cap it at a certain resource level, for example.

• Attributes effect on damage could be capped at base resource pool level (around 7k) to account for no softcap on weapon damage.
• Magicka based shields could be capped at around 25k resources to reflect the previous magicka cap
• Shields affecting health would be capped at around 35k just like the previous health cap.
• You could still stack your attributes past these levels, it just wouldn't affect your damage, shields and heals.
• For example, if you stack 45k stamina you still have the benefit of having a huge stamina pool but it doesn't also give you monster damage as well.

Note that this fix isn't enough just by its own. It's is a multiple step solution and the values I gave are only examples. You also have to disable or rework the champion system, and tweak/reduce/cap regen so that skills can't be spammed indefinitely.

Soris

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Wow this whole post is awesome, but this pic here, is the most awesome.

I have used similar build for my templar main, and man..it was a blast. He is Altmer and I used stamina for my damage (no penalty at all. nowadays it's useless) and magicka for heal, shield, utility and dots occasionally (reflective light, blazing spears).
You had countless of choices with stats like this, and you had hundreds of gear/build options. Every single skill stamina/magicka had a use with a build like this. All of those long forgotten gears had matter in those days. And all these without even gimping yourself, still be decent at 1v1 and XvX fights. And people /whisp you "wow i want to know what you use" etc..

Most new people often say diversity these days, but they didn't even see how much diversity we had in old days. For me, nowadays it's just a self destruction if you dont use XYZ build. Because most other builds either doesn't work at all or hard mode.

Joy_Division

Lokey0024 wrote: »

I just think low health healing scaling with strength of the heal is kind of over powered. Kinda falls into the catagory of shield spam. CC is never long enough to keep BoL spam from saving someone close to death unless its alot of burst from multiple targets. Promotes dumb gameplay with a shallow learning curve. Why would you worry about low health if you heal for 12k+ in 1 second and could do so repeatedly?

Hmm, yes, so it's ok for damage to escalate when players are at low health, but when healing does the same it's OP.

Damage dealers and players who play who are focused on just killing stuff have been frustrated with every single game mechanic in ESO that seemingly has prevented them from getting the kills they feel that they deserve. Damage is fine. blocking, shielding, healing, bolt escaping, that's the sort of OP stuff that just needs to be reigned it.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

Soris wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Wow this whole post is awesome, but this pic here, is the most awesome.

I have used similar build for my templar main, and man..it was a blast. He is Altmer and I used stamina for my damage (no penalty at all. nowadays it's useless) and magicka for heal, shield, utility and dots occasionally (reflective light, blazing spears).
You had countless of choices with stats like this, and you had hundreds of gear/build options. Every single skill stamina/magicka had a use with a build like this. All of those long forgotten gears had matter in those days. And all these without even gimping yourself, still be decent at 1v1 and XvX fights. And people /whisp you "wow i want to know what you use" etc..

Most new people often say diversity these days, but they didn't even see how much diversity we had in old days. For me, nowadays it's just a self destruction if you dont use XYZ build. Because most other builds either doesn't work at all or hard mode.

There is a lot of interesting information in that picture. Notice there is almost 7k (70K by todays inflated standards), of resources across all three pools. Much of that was stolen from us in 1.6 and locked behind the champion system for us to grind back. Some of it never returned. Also look at those regen caps. Those would be the equivalent of 1300 max regen today. So we had larger stat pools and less regen. That should tell you something about why the game played more like an elder scrolls game back in the day and less like Call Of Duty: Cyrodiil Ops.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

Joy_Division wrote: »

Lokey0024 wrote: »

I just think low health healing scaling with strength of the heal is kind of over powered. Kinda falls into the catagory of shield spam. CC is never long enough to keep BoL spam from saving someone close to death unless its alot of burst from multiple targets. Promotes dumb gameplay with a shallow learning curve. Why would you worry about low health if you heal for 12k+ in 1 second and could do so repeatedly?

Hmm, yes, so it's ok for damage to escalate when players are at low health, but when healing does the same it's OP.

Damage dealers and players who play who are focused on just killing stuff have been frustrated with every single game mechanic in ESO that seemingly has prevented them from getting the kills they feel that they deserve. Damage is fine. blocking, shielding, healing, bolt escaping, that's the sort of OP stuff that just needs to be reigned it.

It's because we have a bunch of COD kids playing this game. They want that 360 no scope and are used to fast kills then get back into the action.