Damage in PvP

Sypher

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ImrIzpOA9Q

I'm eager to discuss this more with you guys. Let me know what you think.

TARAFRAKA

Well you're still as adorable as ever @Sypher
I spent most of the video daydreaming googley eyed but I'm sure what you said was important.

TARAFRAKA

But now that I've watched it all yes I like this idea. Personally I think the damage is nuts in pvp. Being one shot in 2 seconds while running impen and 600 cp is crazy so I can't imagine what lower levels go through.

Back on topic of your video, I would run so many different sets if damage was calculated differently and I wasn't gimping myself with the sets that are less common and don't stack straight max magic and spell damage etc.

It appears that either people have stupid amounts amounts of damage or barely any. There's a huge disadvantage for people not rocking the typical kags, julianos or hundings with willpower or agility jewelry.
Edit: I forgot paragraphs existed.

Syntse

Indeed put out part 2 of this with graphs etc and suggestions how to achieve the goal you are saying needs to be done. I do like the idea of being able to use more variety of setups and gears and still being somewhat effective.

Sypher

TARAFRAKA wrote: »

Well you're still as adorable as ever @Sypher
I spent most of the video daydreaming googley eyed but I'm sure what you said was important.

Awww thanks

Syntse wrote: »

Indeed put out part 2 of this with graphs etc and suggestions how to achieve the goal you are saying needs to be done. I do like the idea of being able to use more variety of setups and gears and still being somewhat effective.

Definitely will do this given some time and feedback

juhasman

Remove battle spirit and bring soft caps on PvP instead (good old times syndrome).

leepalmer95

juhasman wrote: »

Remove battle spirit and bring soft caps on PvP instead (good old times syndrome).

Soft caps will never come back, game is too far past them.

Bashev

This balance that you are talking about was accomplished in the old combat with the soft caps. Especially the spell damage wasnt affected by the weapon that you had, it was based on level and the bonuses that you had. On top of that t was capped.
Currently almost all classes can chieve high damage, high sustain and high mitigation except mDKs. Thats why when you start playing your mDK you feel that something should be done. I totally agree but I dont believe that it will happen though @wrobel mentioned in one of the shows that he wants to change the combat and they were in a prototype phase --> https://youtube.com/watch?v=bKu7GnANIO8&feature=youtu.be&t=3654

IxSTALKERxI

100% agree sypher, I've been suggesting something along these lines since imperial city patch. They need to do something about this at some point or the power creep & balance will just get out of control. Better sooner than later, it'll help with the longevity of the game, and future patches.

juhasman

leepalmer95 wrote: »

juhasman wrote: »

Remove battle spirit and bring soft caps on PvP instead (good old times syndrome).

Soft caps will never come back, game is too far past them.

I am not taking about old soft caps but making new soft cap mechanic working only on PvP instead of actual battle spirit. For example You can get 100% resource bonus up to 25k then up to 35k 75% etc same with wep and spell dmg and maybe other stats. That's just the example and numbers are random but I think You get my point? More You have less You'll get. And soft caps dont need to affect all stats like regen or cost reduction.

Ishammael

Here's how to accomplish what you are asking for, Sypher:

Remove Battle spirit, reintroduce soft caps.

Armitas

Damage High hand
I think that there are two other problems besides just spell and weapon damage and they may be the root of the high hand, or top end damage.

1. Penetration. In most cases people are running around nekkid, even in 5 heavy armor because penetration is so high. Except for extreme mitigation builds the only mitigation that ever occurs in pvp is crit resistance.

2. Crit damage modifier and no impen on monster sets. I think the main reason for all the high damage is the crit damage modifyers and the fact that it's highly unlikely to get a monster piece with impen on it due to their recent decision to take impenetrable off the loot table in pve. Crit damage is the biggest source of damage in this game. This is why TBS with shadow/thief is the top dps set. A TBS set with 2k spell power is far and away better than a Julianos with over 4k spell power. I know because I am stuck useing Julianos because I only play 1 toon and can't switch stones for every event. This is why people are getting hit for 20k shards, 20k WBs (someone even hit a 60k WB in IC sewers), 15k incapacitating strikes. You can stack it so high and x damage is so much better than + spell damage. If you can combine it with straight damage then it gets to be really high. It crushes build diversity in both PvP and PvE.

If we can fix the penetration and crit modifiers then I think the high hand will drop.

Survival
I think we need 1 modifier for healing and 1 modifier for decreased healing. 33% heal debuff tops, and 33% outgoing healing tops. No vitality. No unique heal modifier on malubeth no unique heal debuff stacking. I also think that heals should not be based on spell damage but should have a rescaled base level and rely on out going healing modifiers or a new healing stat to increase that base. That way people aren't doing tons of damage and healing at the same time. No more 7k weapon damage with 4.5k vigor ticks.

Damage low hand
Dots need to be taken off the battle spirit debuff. They were never the problem, the problem was always nuke damage not dots.

Conclusion.
Ideally I think the best solution is for battle spirit to change to a damage cap rather than a % nerf. % nerfs are imprecise because they have to hit everyone simultaneously just to hit the target person. A damage cap however is perfectly precise and will only affect the biggest offenders. It promotes build diversity because people will spread their power out when they reach a cap and if that cap is low enough they may reach for utility in a set rather than straight resources or damage. With % nerfs we have no build diversity as only one thing is ever effective...that is stacking straight damage because it builds sustain, survival, and damage.

Damage caps are also what has made many MMOs work for a long time so it's not experimental but proven to be effective in limiting certain outcomes. It will also allow for more CP diversity rather than the current meta where you have a toon for tanking a toon for healing and a toon for dpsing all with a highly skewed CP distribution.

Something needs to change in PvP. So hopefully you and the stream crew can get a meeting in with Wrobel.

Zheg

But fengrush keeps saying damage is too low. I sense a disturbance in the streamer force.

Armitas

Zheg wrote: »

But fengrush keeps saying damage is too low. I sense a disturbance in the streamer force.

Is he speaking in reference to healing or just mitigation?

Anazasi

This is a very simple solution. Remove the damage modifiers from stat pools and replace them with regen modifiers. Tanks will be more tanky, Stam users will be more effective, magic users will be more effective. The fights will be longer the damage will be more consistent. They will not have to change ultimate calculations because class will still be stacking stam, magic and health the same.

ZOS can leave the battle spirit alone and test this gradually.

Its worth a try if ZOS would only listen.

Anazasi

Ishammael wrote: »

Here's how to accomplish what you are asking for, Sypher:

Remove Battle spirit, reintroduce soft caps.

been there done that.

Ishammael

Anazasi wrote: »

This is a very simple solution. Remove the damage modifiers from stat pools and replace them with regen modifiers. Tanks will be more tanky, Stam users will be more effective, magic users will be more effective. The fights will be longer the damage will be more consistent. They will not have to change ultimate calculations because class will still be stacking stam, magic and health the same.

ZOS can leave the battle spirit alone and test this gradually.

Its worth a try if ZOS would only listen.

This is actually a good point

Most damage calculations in the game are processed as follows:

COEF* ( STAT + 10.46*DMG)

Meaning, that max stat and damage go together to determine the effectiveness of a skill.

If max stats were decoupled from damage and assigned to something else, we would see a huge range of builds open up. 35k mana or stam is worth ~3500 dmg... if lost, this might enable ZOS to completely remove Battle Spirit and change nothing else because typical base damage is on that order.

Cryhavoc

Anazasi wrote: »

This is a very simple solution. Remove the damage modifiers from stat pools and replace them with regen modifiers. Tanks will be more tanky, Stam users will be more effective, magic users will be more effective. The fights will be longer the damage will be more consistent. They will not have to change ultimate calculations because class will still be stacking stam, magic and health the same.

ZOS can leave the battle spirit alone and test this gradually.

Its worth a try if ZOS would only listen.

This.

FENGRUSH

Zheg wrote: »

But fengrush keeps saying damage is too low. I sense a disturbance in the streamer force.

Damage isn't low this patch. Also, no one factor can be commented on in isolation.

If you ever came to a real discussion on these issues you'd get torn be peices. Instead you bury yourself with your misery on these forums. You achieve nothing but record setting threads for templars.

_Chaos

Anazasi wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Here's how to accomplish what you are asking for, Sypher:

Remove Battle spirit, reintroduce soft caps.

been there done that.

They removed battle spirit and brought back soft caps? When did they do that?
I can guarantee you since the introduction of battle spirit they have not removed it, not once.

Anazasi

_Chaos wrote: »

Anazasi wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Here's how to accomplish what you are asking for, Sypher:

Remove Battle spirit, reintroduce soft caps.

been there done that.

They removed battle spirit and brought back soft caps? When did they do that?
I can guarantee you since the introduction of battle spirit they have not removed it, not once.

no battle spirit was 20% at launch but AR assualt line allowed you to negate it almost completely with buff. They also had an option at launch to turn off battle spirit. So if one can turn it off than it was removed right. So lets try thinking down a path that ZOS would be likely to consider.

Ishammael

Anazasi wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Here's how to accomplish what you are asking for, Sypher:

Remove Battle spirit, reintroduce soft caps.

been there done that.

Exactly when did we do this?

Zheg

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

But fengrush keeps saying damage is too low. I sense a disturbance in the streamer force.

Damage isn't low this patch. Also, no one factor can be commented on in isolation.

If you ever came to a real discussion on these issues you'd get torn be peices. Instead you bury yourself with your misery on these forums. You achieve nothing but record setting threads for templars.

I dont have 2+ hours of my life to waste hearing you finish a thought on a video, sorry. Youve said TTK is too low, and you conplain about damage being too low when you cant take on excessive numbers and kill them before theyre healed. Shall i quote you later when i get home?

As to the OP, ive been saying damage is too high multiple times, every patch, probably since around IC.

Anazasi

Ishammael wrote: »

Anazasi wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Here's how to accomplish what you are asking for, Sypher:

Remove Battle spirit, reintroduce soft caps.

been there done that.

Exactly when did we do this?

Soft caps existed in the game the first 6 months or so after launch. Battle spirit was 20% until they raised it to 50 around the time of ICP. There also was a time when you could turn battle spirit buff off. Yes it cost you the health mod but the damage reduction was not there. So when i say been there done that i mean we have been down that path. To assume ZOS is willing to walk down a path they have already walked is like expecting them to remove AOE caps. Its just not going to happen. They do not want soft caps of any kind in the game. Soft caps are contrary to what ZOS considers play as you like philosophy. If we are going to offer idea's to them we have to be original, we have to lead ZOS to a conclusion that they will embrace because it is not contrary to what they believe. Removing the damage mod from stat pools and adding a regen mod to stat pools would essentially give them something they could would work without trying to change the entire kitchen on them. This would say allow a tank to have 50k health and a 5k health regen (math is example not an actual) with the same damage as before. They would be tanky with a very high sustain but very low damage. I'm just trying to think out of the box on a solution that everyone recognizes. Soft caps and more % reductions are not what this game needs.

Sharee

Reduce the extent to which damage can be increased, but increase the base damage at the same time. This basically lowers the weight of the damage stat in the stat mix, allowing for others to take it's place and still be viable. I like it.

Rohamad_Ali

I completely agree with this . It's rediculous we have to sink every penny into one ability in order to make viable damage in PvP .

Ishammael

Anazasi wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Anazasi wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Here's how to accomplish what you are asking for, Sypher:

Remove Battle spirit, reintroduce soft caps.

been there done that.

Exactly when did we do this?

Soft caps existed in the game the first 6 months or so after launch. Battle spirit was 20% until they raised it to 50 around the time of ICP. There also was a time when you could turn battle spirit buff off. Yes it cost you the health mod but the damage reduction was not there. So when i say been there done that i mean we have been down that path. To assume ZOS is willing to walk down a path they have already walked is like expecting them to remove AOE caps. Its just not going to happen. They do not want soft caps of any kind in the game. Soft caps are contrary to what ZOS considers play as you like philosophy. If we are going to offer idea's to them we have to be original, we have to lead ZOS to a conclusion that they will embrace because it is not contrary to what they believe. Removing the damage mod from stat pools and adding a regen mod to stat pools would essentially give them something they could would work without trying to change the entire kitchen on them. This would say allow a tank to have 50k health and a 5k health regen (math is example not an actual) with the same damage as before. They would be tanky with a very high sustain but very low damage. I'm just trying to think out of the box on a solution that everyone recognizes. Soft caps and more % reductions are not what this game needs.

I know the history of soft caps.

However, soft caps have never existed in combination with the CP system, hence "reintroduce."

The entire point of soft caps is to accomplish exactly what Sypher described: decrease the Delta between highest dmg and lowest dmg. The result of which is to make viable a range of sets which are not currently viable, like the examples given: whitestrake, spectres eye, arena, etc.

Ffastyl

What you are speaking of is power gap. It is too high in this game. Soft caps would keep it all in check, and a simpler solution than individually nerfing each unbalanced set and combination as they crop up. Hard caps would also work, but they have to be set below what the min/maxers are achieving to attain some semblance of balance. Soft caps maintain the freedom to build but reduce the power gap.

It should be applied game wide rather than exclusively PvP. Contrary to popular belief, min/maxing harms PvE the most. Since there is inherently less competition it goes undernoticed, but think about all the endgame, top tier and raid-worthy builds out there: they all min/max for their specific role. Soft caps would reduce min/maxing and diversify builds as there are more ways to achieve the same or similar stats. The E in PvE can be rebalanced around that. NPCs cannot protest about nerfs.

Soft caps will reduce diversity in stats. The spectrum of stats achievable will be shortened. That is where the power gap lies. The meta will become to stop when a significant soft cap kicks in and spread out stats. But some will still stack, and we will still have diversity. The use of currently abandoned sets will increase the number of mechanics seen, such as Whitestrake's damage shield or Death Wind's knockback.

The mechanics that min/maxing allows players to ignore -- boss mechanics, resource management, balancing offense and defense -- will be reinstated and combat a more skill based endeavor. High end combat is about who has the highest stats when ESO's combat shines when the question is who can manage resources better? The primary culprit of power creep, the Champion System, will also be checked by soft caps. 25% can stay 25% in the menu, but in the calculations it becomes less to people who have more.

The simple soft cap system of 40% in version 1.0 - 1.5 was adequate for balance in most regards, but it was "hated by the playerbase for feeling like a hard cap." Needless to say, popular demand has given us today's state of the game. But a progressive soft cap system may work better. The original system had its blind spots, cost reduction and critical chance/modifier were not capped. To spitball an iteration of progressive soft caps on damage,

Sample 1

First Cap: 2000 - 10%
Second Cap: 3000 - 20%
Third Cap: 4000 - 40%

Actual vs Capped
1000 => 1000
2000 => 2000 (First Cap)
3000 => 2900
3111 => 3000 (Second Cap)
4000 => 3711
4361 => 4000 (Third Cap)
5000 => 4443
6028 => 5000

Sample 2

First Cap: 2000 - 20%
Second Cap: 3000 - 40%
Third Cap: 4000 - 80%

Actual vs Capped
1000 => 1000
2000 => 2000 (First Cap)
3000 => 2800
3250 => 3000 (Second Cap)
4000 => 3450
4917 => 4000 (Third Cap)
5000 => 4017
9917 => 5000

Sample 3

First Cap: 2000 - 20%
Second Cap: 3000 - 30%
Third Cap: 4000 - 40%

Actual vs Capped
1000 => 1000
2000 => 2000 (First Cap)
3000 => 2800
3250 => 3000 (Second Cap)
4000 => 3525
4679 => 4000 (Third Cap)
5000 => 4193
6346 => 5000

Comparison Flat Cap

Soft Cap: 2000 - 40%

Actual vs Capped
1000 => 1000
2000 => 2000 (Soft Cap)
3000 => 2600
3667 => 3000
4000 => 3200
5000 => 3800
5333 => 4000
7000 => 5000

Sypher

I'm basically trying to bring back the effects of soft caps without bringing back the actual soft cap system. Zenimax will not ever bring back softcaps, the game has changed a lot for them to do that. There are other ways to achieve similar results though.

Sypher

Sharee wrote: »

Reduce the extent to which damage can be increased, but increase the base damage at the same time. This basically lowers the weight of the damage stat in the stat mix, allowing for others to take it's place and still be viable. I like it.

Exactly!

SoulScream

Just be to clear the battle spirit toggle only worked at lower levels. It changed nothing at all at level cap. It only changed stats in a positive way around low 40's level. Other than around then it made stats worse.

When BWB camp was new it was learned to toggle it off or at least check if it made a positive difference around lvl 40 to near 50.