Concept: Damage Cap

DocFrost72

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

I've been saying it for a while now, DPS is out of control. If all that matters is stacking WD, crit, and crit modifier and DPSing past mechanics, then we need to reel it in. Hard cap isn't the -Best- way (would prefer return of softcaps), but dang it I'll give the idea a +1 OP.

Let's go back to the days of resource management, varied builds, and long, fun fights over this "Lazer beam 100k damage output in a party of four" nonsense we're dealing with now.

dps isn't out of control, there used to be a day when you'd be called an idiot for running in groups with 15k health, as adds would 1 shot you/take much longer to kill. DPS hasn't gotten out of control the game has just gotten rediculously easier. they keep turning those 20k hits from adds down to like 6k and mass reducing hp on everything. Fights are no longer fun because people no longer interrupt channels and instead wait until aoes are on them rather than wait foe them to be telled and move. these same people refuse to use comms with their group amd demand everything be easier.

This isn't rocket science, most fights are pillowfights in pve now. It's not the min-maxer's fault adds in nso have ~2million health and only do 500 damage, that supports low health high damage playstyle, when they did it the other way around people like the op freaked *** and called for nerfs.

I'm all up for using caps to help balance out pvp, but keep your crap ideas away from pve. How can anyone so selfishly suggest it? I get it, you've clearlt never ran vet trials (thank god) but yoj can't ask for generalized nerfs.

generalizing buffs/nerfs are what keeps screwing this game up. nerf pvp so people stop getting 1 shotted to dumb *** (or t=start banning people who cry because they can't get e,porer by themselves in heavy armour, 8k ,ax stamina, spamming snipe)

if you want long fights with lots of mecha ics then go trials, because that's what it's all about. Then you'll see why your mediocre dps gets you kicked from group when you can't kill ,anticora before enrage.

dps isn't sucking, players are sucking.

Lol, first telling people that you'd rather solo then run with them, and now you assume I haven't ever run trials before? Please, grow up. [snip] I have no idea who you are.

And you kind of have to build tanky bosses. Long fights and lots of mech = better game in my opinion. Doesn't make me a care bear anymore than your attitude makes you good.

[edited for baiting]

Ep1kMalware

why wouldn't I rather solo or 2 man content nowadays? it's not like difficulty or mechanics are going to stop me.

have you made it very far in vet maw or vet sanctum? [snip] You literally get adds with lifebars. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

Humatiel

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Humatiel wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Humatiel wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Humatiel wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Humatiel wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Humatiel wrote: »

So your answer to ZoS designing a game that they immediately broke is to limit players themselves.

We've got players hitting ~50k dps in proper environments so even if we were to "limit dps" it would still be in the 30-40k range, hell the two new 4man dungeons coming out require 25k+ dps per DD to finish. As most players will never hit that this argument is relatively moot.

And why exactly do they require that much dps to finish? Is it to finish in a given time period or is it because of something else?

Each of the dungeons has a "dps race" or the environment itself will kill the team.

Which is why Tanks need an AoE taunt and healers are so necessary.

This conversation is about a dps ceiling, trying to force correlative perspectives is a whole different matter.

Indeed it is, but there are so many things that could come about from less DPS running rampant. That actually includes increased difficulty, among other things.

Spindleclutch - 7k dps per DD to complete Bloodspawn
ICP - 15k dps per DD to complete Warrior/Zerker/Necro/templar
vMoL - 20k dps per DD to complete first boss
Cradle of Shadows (new 4man) - 25k dps per DD to complete dps checks.

ZoS has made it abundantly clear that they have no intention of stopping the dps progression as they have been designing content for it since the games release. While I might agree that tanks/healers tend to get second priority (to a good DD), thats just how this game is.

25k per DD? So stam builds without vMA weapons need not apply?

Stam builds with vMA weapons are topping at around 45k right now, its not a 20k difference without. That being said 25k per dd is the minimum needed and as always that can flux a bit depending on the team. take for instance a healer able to use jesusbeam efficiently and that will lower each dps requirement. There are many ways to bend this with the right coordination.

DK stam builds with vMA weapons are topping at 45k. Other classes do not. As a NB without vMA weapons with a perfect group and high uptime I can manage 18k. Maybe 20k if the stars align. With an average group its more like 16k. So I guess the dungeons arent for me then.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhhBIPbTzkg

that is a link of stam NB in trials hitting 49k, granted its with vma weapons but asking for 26k lower dps then he is pulling without isnt out of the park for content that is geared toward just these types of players.

MaxwellC

@UltimaJoe777
The problem here isn't a DPS only group it's the fact that people QQ'd so hard about dungeons being so hard when they didn't L2P the mechanics and then wanna cry about other BS. That's the only reason, if ZOS stopped nerfing the dungeons because a certain percentile refuses to learn the mechanics or get better gear to actually be able to participate in those dungeons then we'd have all these un-nerf'd challenging dungeons that actually need 1 of each role with DPS still being 2 DPS.

Gulkrim-mur

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

So nowadays it's mostly DPS this, DPS that, and as a result everyone invests as much as they can into DPS to get it as high as possible. Well what if there was a limit to how much damage you could do in a single hit? Would that be more beneficial across the board or would it bring more problems? Feel free to discuss.

By the way, this cap would apply to heals too.

No. Dps is popular choice.
Doesnt other play style is ruined.

I have friends who go full tank, iv personally seen give up to 5 or maybe few more dps players alot of trouble. 1v1 forget it its a draw usually. Stam tank vigors if even put near death.
Dps usually doesnt have dmg or resource to finish it off.
We are talking 50k hp 20-30k res.

Iv even seen fair share of healers need gank by at least 3 strong dps players just to be killed.

I just think dps is the way everyone goes cause high dmg n kills makes u feel strong to most people over tanking almost 10 players for a minute.

Its all how you look at it.

Shazgob

Kammakazi wrote: »

I'm pretty sure the 28 Agrees, 6 Awesomes, and 1 Insightful pretty much sum that up.

arkansas_ESO

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Tekyn wrote: »

There should never for any reason be a hard damage cap. Plenty of games have diminishing returns, but ESO moved away from that.

The problem is that there isn't any compelling thing to do besides DPS. There are zero specializations outside of the holy trinity... DPS, tanky, healer. Buffs and debuffs are all generalized. Snares and roots are common side effects on other skills, and players can get themselves out of them anyway. Combat in ESO is basically just add HP or remove HP.

Until they add some effects that give a strategic advantage over pure damage, the game is just who can get the biggest numbers without dying first.

Which is exactly why a damage cap would have people thinking outside the hitbox.

But it wouldn't. All focus would still be on DPS, it's just that now you've increased the time it takes to kill something by putting in a hard cap.

khele23eb17_ESO

Humatiel wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Humatiel wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Humatiel wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Humatiel wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Humatiel wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Humatiel wrote: »

So your answer to ZoS designing a game that they immediately broke is to limit players themselves.

We've got players hitting ~50k dps in proper environments so even if we were to "limit dps" it would still be in the 30-40k range, hell the two new 4man dungeons coming out require 25k+ dps per DD to finish. As most players will never hit that this argument is relatively moot.

And why exactly do they require that much dps to finish? Is it to finish in a given time period or is it because of something else?

Each of the dungeons has a "dps race" or the environment itself will kill the team.

Which is why Tanks need an AoE taunt and healers are so necessary.

This conversation is about a dps ceiling, trying to force correlative perspectives is a whole different matter.

Indeed it is, but there are so many things that could come about from less DPS running rampant. That actually includes increased difficulty, among other things.

Spindleclutch - 7k dps per DD to complete Bloodspawn
ICP - 15k dps per DD to complete Warrior/Zerker/Necro/templar
vMoL - 20k dps per DD to complete first boss
Cradle of Shadows (new 4man) - 25k dps per DD to complete dps checks.

ZoS has made it abundantly clear that they have no intention of stopping the dps progression as they have been designing content for it since the games release. While I might agree that tanks/healers tend to get second priority (to a good DD), thats just how this game is.

25k per DD? So stam builds without vMA weapons need not apply?

Stam builds with vMA weapons are topping at around 45k right now, its not a 20k difference without. That being said 25k per dd is the minimum needed and as always that can flux a bit depending on the team. take for instance a healer able to use jesusbeam efficiently and that will lower each dps requirement. There are many ways to bend this with the right coordination.

DK stam builds with vMA weapons are topping at 45k. Other classes do not. As a NB without vMA weapons with a perfect group and high uptime I can manage 18k. Maybe 20k if the stars align. With an average group its more like 16k. So I guess the dungeons arent for me then.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhhBIPbTzkg

that is a link of stam NB in trials hitting 49k, granted its with vma weapons but asking for 26k lower dps then he is pulling without isnt out of the park for content that is geared toward just these types of players.

Again, take away the weapons, and put him in an average 4-man pug. Lets see him pull over 20k.

UltimaJoe777

dday3six wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

DPS roles are always more popular, it's like that in most MMO's. The problem is that ESO is a singleplayer game with light MMO elements. Barely any mechanics require dedicated Tanks and Healers. Nothing in the campaign teaches players any notion of what a Tank or Healer does in a group setting. Then group content can be completely skipped so there is little reason for players to learn to work together. That's the issue. ESO has one side of the MMO coin with the trinity, but barely any of the other side that gives Tanks and Healers a reason to be needed, thus more desirable to be played.

Capping burst damage will only serve to force players who otherwise ignored a rotation to adopt one in order to have reasonable DPS. That will make the game a lot more complex than the average player is use to, or has any experience with. Which will not help in the slightest.

He's right; DPS is the "easy road" because all you have to do is just do a bunch of damage to get by and anything else is oft times what people consider too much work to pull off. It need not be that way but to each their own... All this thread proposes is they cap the damage a single attack can do or healing a single skill can do at, well... let's say 20k? Nothing unreasonable but enough to stop the constant power creeps that turn people more and more toward the Dark Power Side.

The number of skills that can do over 20k consistantly in one hit is quite small. So what would be the point? If your motive is to actually stop players from focusing on DPS only then the bar would need to be low enough that either there is no gain, or so little gain that it's better to strengthen other areas.

Further you know the only time a DPS can actually focus solely on DPS? As in slot no defensive/utility skills, and only slot abilities that directly or indirectly contribute to their damage output. When they're grouped with a competent Tank and Healer. Solo you run heals and possibly CC. In PVP you'll definiately run CC along with heals.

The motive behind this thread is to see an increase in variety, not see people with high DPS and less than 20k health, even food buffed, all over the place. Of course I'm not saying Damage Caps are the perfect solution, but it's a concept worth exploring, hence this discussion. I've played games with damage caps and I can see it working if it happens. PC Players would know better than I how good or bad soft caps were, and if they were bad then this angle would not work out but is still worth exploring.

What are some examples of these games with damage caps, and how is ESO so closely mimicking the combat mechanics of these games that you think the addition a cap on damage per hit would be able to be seemlessy adopted by ESO?

People tend to be drawn toward the direct of what works. Optimizing is a large part of gaming. A damage cap will not change that. Players will simply shift toward another trend, and you'll be right back here decrying a lack of diversity.

Every role, class and individual player sets their HP at a level they feel most comfortable with. Not everyone goes 64 in their primary damage resource. Nevertheless why is it a bad thing if they do? It's a very common modus operandi to stack primary stats in RPG's of both the single and multiplayer variety. Because it very often the case that it's more effective to focus on one or a limited number areas, than it is to be spread thinly across multiple.

Diversity for the sake of diversity is a double edged sword when it comes to varity of choice playstyles in gaming. You'll find often times variety is merely a reskin masquerading as difference. That, or a stock of filler which lacks functional efficacy and is propped up by the few choices that actually perform well.

As many MMOs as I've played not many were built around doing enormous amounts of damage depending on your build. It usually came about as maxing a stat and getting proper gear and that was that. Some games I've played though actually DID cap damage so it didn't get too big. Of course it had bypasses to a degree but overall it was there. It existed to prevent DPS from getting game-breaking without dampening it too much. Even if ESO capped single-hit damage at 20k it would soften burst damage while not harming DPS too much, thus creating a bit less of a "DPS Race" to instantly win fights so they can't drag out, or get instakills in PvP using the easy route. If you want a name of a game I've played that used a damage cap then that game is Redstone, and no I'm not talking about minecraft lol

No doubt implementing a damage cap will not keep people from continuing the DPS Race and changing course because after all the meta is all about the quick kills, but it will encourage people to look at the possibility of trying something else. Sure it could end up SOSDB (same old *** different build) but at least it's a step away from cookie cutter, if only for a moment... Nothing ventured nothing gained right?

I'm not saying with this that it's bad to be pure DPS (even if it does tend to get you killed a lot lol) but it IS pretty bad when the majority of the entire playerbase is doing it most of the time. My friend saw my DPS on my mage and responded "disgusting". And sometimes I feel like it's overkill myself, because honestly it is. Some people may get off on the raw power and feel godly, but sometimes feeling godly can feel empty. To each their own of course but still...

Diversity in ESO is honestly in short supply for the simple fact we have very little to diversify ourselves. Furthermore there are people wanting what boundary we DO have removed entirely. It would be awesome if we had more classes, or simply lots of sub-classes to choose from to differ ourselves with but alas it will never happen, and we must deal with that. That said I give props to those who, like myself, don't gun for only cookie cutter builds and differ things up a bit!

ADarklore wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

I will say this... in almost ALL MMOs the MAJORITY of players ONLY want to DPS... that's ALL they enjoy doing. Trying to FORCE players away from DPSing would only force more players to LEAVE the game. Right now the min/maxers are all about damage increase... put a cap on it and they would walk away, not 'become a tank' and keep playing. So instead of being all about damage stacking, you'd turn the game into being about defense stacking... but stacking is stacking. Next you'd be saying, "put a cap on damage stacking"... so what's after that OP? What next would you limit because players aren't playing YOUR WAY?!?

There are factors involved that would beg to differ. I wonder how many people here miss soft caps? I sure know a lot of people want AoE caps. You say it's "my way" yet never anywhere did I say I was against DPS. I have both 1 Magicka and 1 Stamina DPS character myself as well as a healer and a tank. I do a bit of everything and they are all perfectly viable. However, the enticement of DPS is what makes the "majority" you speak of turn their backs on healing and/or tanking, tanking moreso since as I've said before healing feeds from the same fuel DPS does: power. Proof of my point lies in this post here:

dday3six wrote: »

DPS roles are always more popular, it's like that in most MMO's. The problem is that ESO is a singleplayer game with light MMO elements. Barely any mechanics require dedicated Tanks and Healers. Nothing in the campaign teaches players any notion of what a Tank or Healer does in a group setting. Then group content can be completely skipped so there is little reason for players to learn to work together. That's the issue. ESO has one side of the MMO coin with the trinity, but barely any of the other side that gives Tanks and Healers a reason to be needed, thus more desirable to be played.

Capping burst damage will only serve to force players who otherwise ignored a rotation to adopt one in order to have reasonable DPS. That will make the game a lot more complex than the average player is use to, or has any experience with. Which will not help in the slightest.

He's right; DPS is the "easy road" because all you have to do is just do a bunch of damage to get by and anything else is oft times what people consider too much work to pull off. It need not be that way but to each their own... All this thread proposes is they cap the damage a single attack can do or healing a single skill can do at, well... let's say 20k? Nothing unreasonable but enough to stop the constant power creeps that turn people more and more toward the Dark Power Side.

I like how you quote another person and then call that PROOF... that's not proof, that's just another OPINION. Furthermore, CASUAL PLAYERS tend to usually prefer DPS and not other roles, because other roles require more time investment and dedication. I played DCUO for over two years and that was always the complaint, that virtually no one wanted to run roles as most players preferred to run DPS... so even content that required roles was difficult to group for because most players were DPS; so in the end they tended to make content viable for more DPS and didn't require roles.

Also, how many here miss soft caps? Hate to tell you but many players here don't even remember soft caps... including console players. So it's tough to miss something we never experienced. Furthermore, FORCING diversity is never a good thing and I've never seen good results come from it. Like I said, most players want to DPS, and as Matt Firor has stated this game is more 'casual based' and therefore trying to force players to 'diversify' would not be good for the casual player base.

Everything in this thread is opinions, but some opinions do recount actual facts. Oft times an opinion is proof enough of a point someone is making, not proof that something is that way entirely without a doubt. Also your definition of "casual player" is rather off. I am a casual player and I can run all 3 roles, and no doubt I am not the only one. Casual player means someone that plays with a less tensive demeanor as opposed to hardcore gamers who play games like there is no tomorrow pumped with more adrenaline than they can contain. Casual player in no way defines WHY someone plays good or bad, that's just elitism stereotyping, which is a common controversy.

Damage Caps would not FORCE diversity, just make it considerable Zenimax will not, if they even do at all, implement a cap that would severely drop DPS rates to the point people would start a riot. DPS would still be perfectly viable but limited so as not to continue the power creep we keep seeing. As for your point on soft caps, by the time ESO came out on consoles soft caps were gone before anyone could realize them so yes you do have a point there, but based on posts I've seen in this thread there are indeed people that remember soft caps.

Lokey0024

instead of capping damage they could, you know, do some reasearch on the skills cost and the effects the skills. Like if you want range to be a better option, increase the cost of gap closers by double. Or a small HOT cost way less then a direct heal. Add some much needed damage midigation ( you should never be able to have 100% penetration unless speced 100 CP or using an ult. It's just dumb) LA 15.6k armor med 20.8 etc.

UltimaJoe777

Lokey0024 wrote: »

instead of capping damage they could, you know, do some reasearch on the skills cost and the effects the skills. Like if you want range to be a better option, increase the cost of gap closers by double. Or a small HOT cost way less then a direct heal. Add some much needed damage midigation ( you should never be able to have 100% penetration unless speced 100 CP or using an ult. It's just dumb) LA 15.6k armor med 20.8 etc.

They've been working on balancing things out across the board for a long time now and people STILL complain about balance. Honestly a cap would balance things out across classes more than modifying individual abilities would. I'm sure there is a reasonable cap that can be implemented at this point that both generates more balance and does not entirely cripple DPS.

Ep1kMalware

Woeler wrote: »

Kammakazi wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

^This

Again, take away the weapons, and put him in an average 4-man pug. Lets see him pull over 20k.

Besides that you can easily pull over 20k in a group of idiots as long as the boss is aggro'd, I have to ask: Your point being? Oh right, there isn't one.

50k dps is legit in a trials group with 7 dd and a boss with 39m and an enrage timer on it. 20k dps is well above average for pug content and If I grouped with someone that can at least pulk 15k its a breath of fresh air.
very few peopke pull these numbers, even with average dps crap bosses with onlt 3m health die quick. It's not exactly a rush of hardcore dps, just softcore content.

incognito222

Its a coincidence that I was thinking along parallel lines.

Not that damage should have a cap, but I question myself as to why damage mitigation does have one. Players hit harder than ever due to new sets, levelled older sets, CP allocation and future increase in CP gear levels.

I started a thread yesterday regarding damage mitigation, feel free to drop by for those that want to give back to the community in the form of constructive discussion so as to keep it separate from this one.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/276900/question-regarding-armor-cap-damage-mitigation-and-heavy-armor#latest

Back to the thread starter's topic, IMHO a damage cap would be limiting the diversity of builds as well as playstyle, which will take out much of the fun for those who like to theorycraft and experiment with new builds. I believe there are more who fall into that category as opposed to those who do not.

Vyshan

Is this one of them there PvP QQ threads?

Oh, it is? Yeah, no. Don't care then. Pay no mind to the PvPers and move along.

K4RMA

#increasebattlespiritdebuffto80%

Armitas

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

So nowadays it's mostly DPS this, DPS that, and as a result everyone invests as much as they can into DPS to get it as high as possible. Well what if there was a limit to how much damage you could do in a single hit? Would that be more beneficial across the board or would it bring more problems? Feel free to discuss.

By the way, this cap would apply to heals too.

I think it would be better than the global 50% battle spirit reductions. The reason being is that the % reductions are extremely inaccurate. They hit everyone rather than just the builds they are aimed at. With a cap you can precisely aim at the build or class you want and hit them without hurting everyone. With % based nerfs you can only go so far before you smother everyone to death with nerfs trying to reach that one build or class.

I think it would also increase build diversity. Yeah you would stop at A and work on B, but then everyone else would as well. As it is now everyone just goes to the builds that already have everything, like 7k weapon power with 4.5k vigors and dodge for days, and that makes the builds that don't have everything complete garbage. Now you would have many builds that access the same powers differently. But neither would be reliant of FOTM broke builds because everyone can reach most of the things they need for success and so rely upon personal ability rather than numbers, broken combinations, mechanics and the weaknesses of underdeveloped classes and systems.

It would be bad for PvE though. People love their parses. Whole raid will be dead and they won't rez cause the parse is all that matters.

Destruent

I wonder where those numbers for the new dungeons come from. Bosses there have between 2.5 and 5 Million HP and mostly mechanics which cannot be outdpsed. They can be beaten with little effort with template characters. So i don't think they require that much. Also those numbers for vICP are off. We did this dungeons at release with 2 DPS maintaining between 15k and 20k DPS where it was a lot harder. Pls don't spread so much *** in this forum.

Woeler wrote: »

Kammakazi wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

^This

Again, take away the weapons, and put him in an average 4-man pug. Lets see him pull over 20k.

Besides that you can easily pull over 20k in a group of idiots as long as the boss is aggro'd, I have to ask: Your point being? Oh right, there isn't one.

So much this. You can pull 30k+ DPS without any groupsupport. I guess 25k+ without maelstromeweapons and support. If you can't it's a l2p-issue.

[edited for profanity masking]