Concept: Damage Cap

UltimaJoe777

So nowadays it's mostly DPS this, DPS that, and as a result everyone invests as much as they can into DPS to get it as high as possible. Well what if there was a limit to how much damage you could do in a single hit? Would that be more beneficial across the board or would it bring more problems? Feel free to discuss.

By the way, this cap would apply to heals too.

Kammakazi

UltimaJoe777

Kammakazi wrote: »

Care to elaborate or are you among the crowd that wants everyone to run DPS builds only?

redspecter23

Kammakazi wrote: »

Couldn't have said it any better.

UltimaJoe777

redspecter23 wrote: »

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Kammakazi wrote: »

Couldn't have said it any better.

Except nothing was said at all beyond flat-out objection without reason. This is a discussion people, either contribute or say nothing at all.

imnotanother

I don't see the point in gimping players.

UltimaJoe777

imnotanother wrote: »

I don't see the point in gimping players.

It wouldn't be gimping players, it'd be giving anything beyond pure DPS consideration since they can't just obliterate everything with 36k or even more damage per hit. Tanks would actually be more considered and we wouldn't be at risk of having group finder give us a group of nothing but DPSers.

Tekyn

There should never for any reason be a hard damage cap. Plenty of games have diminishing returns, but ESO moved away from that.

The problem is that there isn't any compelling thing to do besides DPS. There are zero specializations outside of the holy trinity... DPS, tanky, healer. Buffs and debuffs are all generalized. Snares and roots are common side effects on other skills, and players can get themselves out of them anyway. Combat in ESO is basically just add HP or remove HP.

Until they add some effects that give a strategic advantage over pure damage, the game is just who can get the biggest numbers without dying first.

UltimaJoe777

Tekyn wrote: »

There should never for any reason be a hard damage cap. Plenty of games have diminishing returns, but ESO moved away from that.

The problem is that there isn't any compelling thing to do besides DPS. There are zero specializations outside of the holy trinity... DPS, tanky, healer. Buffs and debuffs are all generalized. Snares and roots are common side effects on other skills, and players can get themselves out of them anyway. Combat in ESO is basically just add HP or remove HP.

Until they add some effects that give a strategic advantage over pure damage, the game is just who can get the biggest numbers without dying first.

Which is exactly why a damage cap would have people thinking outside the hitbox.

Smasherx74

The damage cap would have to consider what the highest possible damage you can do in game is. Which to my knowledge is having major buff, enemy being debuffed, and at like 1% then hitting a finisher at the best possible time.

I've hit 33k with a steel nado before. But I don't think realistically a damage cap will ever make any sense. There are lucky situations where you can hit extraordinarily hard but it's not game breaking.

UltimaJoe777

Smasherx74 wrote: »

The damage cap would have to consider what the highest possible damage you can do in game is. Which to my knowledge is having major buff, enemy being debuffed, and at like 1% then hitting a finisher at the best possible time.

I've hit 33k with a steel nado before. But I don't think realistically a damage cap will ever make any sense. There are lucky situations where you can hit extraordinarily hard but it's not game breaking.

Well sure but it's not entirely about breaking the game. That's actually the DPSers' goal lol which a cap would actually steer them from.

I mean come on what kind of challenge is there in group PvE content when a top-notch boss dies in less than a minute? Honestly the complaints about no difficulty are actually BECAUSE of so many pure DPSers.

Eshelmen

Crit Resist and physical/spell resist.

UltimaJoe777

Eshelmen wrote: »

Crit Resist and physical/spell resist.

Physical/Spell Penetration objects to your statement.

Tekyn

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

show previous quotes

Tekyn wrote: »

There should never for any reason be a hard damage cap. Plenty of games have diminishing returns, but ESO moved away from that.

The problem is that there isn't any compelling thing to do besides DPS. There are zero specializations outside of the holy trinity... DPS, tanky, healer. Buffs and debuffs are all generalized. Snares and roots are common side effects on other skills, and players can get themselves out of them anyway. Combat in ESO is basically just add HP or remove HP.

Until they add some effects that give a strategic advantage over pure damage, the game is just who can get the biggest numbers without dying first.

Which is exactly why a damage cap would have people thinking outside the hitbox.

No, it wouldn't. You'd hit the damage cap and then stack defense and you'd still have everyone doing the same thing, but taking longer to die.

Humatiel

So your answer to ZoS designing a game that they immediately broke is to limit players themselves.

We've got players hitting ~50k dps in proper environments so even if we were to "limit dps" it would still be in the 30-40k range, hell the two new 4man dungeons coming out require 25k+ dps per DD to finish. As most players will never hit that this argument is relatively moot.

UltimaJoe777

Tekyn wrote: »

show previous quotes

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Tekyn wrote: »

There should never for any reason be a hard damage cap. Plenty of games have diminishing returns, but ESO moved away from that.

The problem is that there isn't any compelling thing to do besides DPS. There are zero specializations outside of the holy trinity... DPS, tanky, healer. Buffs and debuffs are all generalized. Snares and roots are common side effects on other skills, and players can get themselves out of them anyway. Combat in ESO is basically just add HP or remove HP.

Until they add some effects that give a strategic advantage over pure damage, the game is just who can get the biggest numbers without dying first.

Which is exactly why a damage cap would have people thinking outside the hitbox.

No, it wouldn't. You'd hit the damage cap and then stack defense and you'd still have everyone doing the same thing, but taking longer to die.

Which would prompt people to make tanks for PvP because right now they are not viable.

UltimaJoe777

Humatiel wrote: »

So your answer to ZoS designing a game that they immediately broke is to limit players themselves.

We've got players hitting ~50k dps in proper environments so even if we were to "limit dps" it would still be in the 30-40k range, hell the two new 4man dungeons coming out require 25k+ dps per DD to finish. As most players will never hit that this argument is relatively moot.

And why exactly do they require that much dps to finish? Is it to finish in a given time period or is it because of something else?

Humatiel

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

show previous quotes

Humatiel wrote: »

So your answer to ZoS designing a game that they immediately broke is to limit players themselves.

We've got players hitting ~50k dps in proper environments so even if we were to "limit dps" it would still be in the 30-40k range, hell the two new 4man dungeons coming out require 25k+ dps per DD to finish. As most players will never hit that this argument is relatively moot.

And why exactly do they require that much dps to finish? Is it to finish in a given time period or is it because of something else?

Each of the dungeons has a "dps race" or the environment itself will kill the team.

AFrostWolf

We just need to add softcaps back into the game with a higher ceiling than before.

UltimaJoe777

Humatiel wrote: »

show previous quotes

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Humatiel wrote: »

So your answer to ZoS designing a game that they immediately broke is to limit players themselves.

We've got players hitting ~50k dps in proper environments so even if we were to "limit dps" it would still be in the 30-40k range, hell the two new 4man dungeons coming out require 25k+ dps per DD to finish. As most players will never hit that this argument is relatively moot.

And why exactly do they require that much dps to finish? Is it to finish in a given time period or is it because of something else?

Each of the dungeons has a "dps race" or the environment itself will kill the team.

Which is why Tanks need an AoE taunt and healers are so necessary.

Humatiel

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

show previous quotes

Humatiel wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Humatiel wrote: »

So your answer to ZoS designing a game that they immediately broke is to limit players themselves.

We've got players hitting ~50k dps in proper environments so even if we were to "limit dps" it would still be in the 30-40k range, hell the two new 4man dungeons coming out require 25k+ dps per DD to finish. As most players will never hit that this argument is relatively moot.

And why exactly do they require that much dps to finish? Is it to finish in a given time period or is it because of something else?

Each of the dungeons has a "dps race" or the environment itself will kill the team.

Which is why Tanks need an AoE taunt and healers are so necessary.

This conversation is about a dps ceiling, trying to force correlative perspectives is a whole different matter.

UltimaJoe777

Humatiel wrote: »

show previous quotes

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Humatiel wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Humatiel wrote: »

So your answer to ZoS designing a game that they immediately broke is to limit players themselves.

We've got players hitting ~50k dps in proper environments so even if we were to "limit dps" it would still be in the 30-40k range, hell the two new 4man dungeons coming out require 25k+ dps per DD to finish. As most players will never hit that this argument is relatively moot.

And why exactly do they require that much dps to finish? Is it to finish in a given time period or is it because of something else?

Each of the dungeons has a "dps race" or the environment itself will kill the team.

Which is why Tanks need an AoE taunt and healers are so necessary.

This conversation is about a dps ceiling, trying to force correlative perspectives is a whole different matter.

Indeed it is, but there are so many things that could come about from less DPS running rampant. That actually includes increased difficulty, among other things.

Humatiel

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

show previous quotes

Humatiel wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Humatiel wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Humatiel wrote: »

So your answer to ZoS designing a game that they immediately broke is to limit players themselves.

We've got players hitting ~50k dps in proper environments so even if we were to "limit dps" it would still be in the 30-40k range, hell the two new 4man dungeons coming out require 25k+ dps per DD to finish. As most players will never hit that this argument is relatively moot.

And why exactly do they require that much dps to finish? Is it to finish in a given time period or is it because of something else?

Each of the dungeons has a "dps race" or the environment itself will kill the team.

Which is why Tanks need an AoE taunt and healers are so necessary.

This conversation is about a dps ceiling, trying to force correlative perspectives is a whole different matter.

Indeed it is, but there are so many things that could come about from less DPS running rampant. That actually includes increased difficulty, among other things.

Spindleclutch - 7k dps per DD to complete Bloodspawn
ICP - 15k dps per DD to complete Warrior/Zerker/Necro/templar
vMoL - 20k dps per DD to complete first boss
Cradle of Shadows (new 4man) - 25k dps per DD to complete dps checks.

ZoS has made it abundantly clear that they have no intention of stopping the dps progression as they have been designing content for it since the games release. While I might agree that tanks/healers tend to get second priority (to a good DD), thats just how this game is.

UltimaJoe777

Humatiel wrote: »

show previous quotes

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Humatiel wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Humatiel wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Humatiel wrote: »

So your answer to ZoS designing a game that they immediately broke is to limit players themselves.

We've got players hitting ~50k dps in proper environments so even if we were to "limit dps" it would still be in the 30-40k range, hell the two new 4man dungeons coming out require 25k+ dps per DD to finish. As most players will never hit that this argument is relatively moot.

And why exactly do they require that much dps to finish? Is it to finish in a given time period or is it because of something else?

Each of the dungeons has a "dps race" or the environment itself will kill the team.

Which is why Tanks need an AoE taunt and healers are so necessary.

This conversation is about a dps ceiling, trying to force correlative perspectives is a whole different matter.

Indeed it is, but there are so many things that could come about from less DPS running rampant. That actually includes increased difficulty, among other things.

Spindleclutch - 7k dps per DD to complete Bloodspawn
ICP - 15k dps per DD to complete Warrior/Zerker/Necro/templar
vMoL - 20k dps per DD to complete first boss
Cradle of Shadows (new 4man) - 25k dps per DD to complete dps checks.

ZoS has made it abundantly clear that they have no intention of stopping the dps progression as they have been designing content for it since the games release. While I might agree that tanks/healers tend to get second priority (to a good DD), thats just how this game is.

I believe that is because people constantly pursue higher DPS, then claim everything is too easy. They might lower that if things changed.

khele23eb17_ESO

Humatiel wrote: »

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UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Humatiel wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Humatiel wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Humatiel wrote: »

So your answer to ZoS designing a game that they immediately broke is to limit players themselves.

We've got players hitting ~50k dps in proper environments so even if we were to "limit dps" it would still be in the 30-40k range, hell the two new 4man dungeons coming out require 25k+ dps per DD to finish. As most players will never hit that this argument is relatively moot.

And why exactly do they require that much dps to finish? Is it to finish in a given time period or is it because of something else?

Each of the dungeons has a "dps race" or the environment itself will kill the team.

Which is why Tanks need an AoE taunt and healers are so necessary.

This conversation is about a dps ceiling, trying to force correlative perspectives is a whole different matter.

Indeed it is, but there are so many things that could come about from less DPS running rampant. That actually includes increased difficulty, among other things.

Spindleclutch - 7k dps per DD to complete Bloodspawn
ICP - 15k dps per DD to complete Warrior/Zerker/Necro/templar
vMoL - 20k dps per DD to complete first boss
Cradle of Shadows (new 4man) - 25k dps per DD to complete dps checks.

ZoS has made it abundantly clear that they have no intention of stopping the dps progression as they have been designing content for it since the games release. While I might agree that tanks/healers tend to get second priority (to a good DD), thats just how this game is.

25k per DD? So stam builds without vMA weapons need not apply?

Humatiel

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

show previous quotes

Humatiel wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Humatiel wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Humatiel wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Humatiel wrote: »

So your answer to ZoS designing a game that they immediately broke is to limit players themselves.

We've got players hitting ~50k dps in proper environments so even if we were to "limit dps" it would still be in the 30-40k range, hell the two new 4man dungeons coming out require 25k+ dps per DD to finish. As most players will never hit that this argument is relatively moot.

And why exactly do they require that much dps to finish? Is it to finish in a given time period or is it because of something else?

Each of the dungeons has a "dps race" or the environment itself will kill the team.

Which is why Tanks need an AoE taunt and healers are so necessary.

This conversation is about a dps ceiling, trying to force correlative perspectives is a whole different matter.

Indeed it is, but there are so many things that could come about from less DPS running rampant. That actually includes increased difficulty, among other things.

Spindleclutch - 7k dps per DD to complete Bloodspawn
ICP - 15k dps per DD to complete Warrior/Zerker/Necro/templar
vMoL - 20k dps per DD to complete first boss
Cradle of Shadows (new 4man) - 25k dps per DD to complete dps checks.

ZoS has made it abundantly clear that they have no intention of stopping the dps progression as they have been designing content for it since the games release. While I might agree that tanks/healers tend to get second priority (to a good DD), thats just how this game is.

I believe that is because people constantly pursue higher DPS, then claim everything is too easy. They might lower that if things changed.

These forums are full of petitions of hundreds (and sometimes thousands) of players wanting X change that ZoS has flat out ignored, until you can provide reasonable proof that ZoS is interested in lowering dps checks on content already released your idea is not only impractical but its functionally impossible.

UltimaJoe777

Humatiel wrote: »

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UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Humatiel wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Humatiel wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Humatiel wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Humatiel wrote: »

So your answer to ZoS designing a game that they immediately broke is to limit players themselves.

We've got players hitting ~50k dps in proper environments so even if we were to "limit dps" it would still be in the 30-40k range, hell the two new 4man dungeons coming out require 25k+ dps per DD to finish. As most players will never hit that this argument is relatively moot.

And why exactly do they require that much dps to finish? Is it to finish in a given time period or is it because of something else?

Each of the dungeons has a "dps race" or the environment itself will kill the team.

Which is why Tanks need an AoE taunt and healers are so necessary.

This conversation is about a dps ceiling, trying to force correlative perspectives is a whole different matter.

Indeed it is, but there are so many things that could come about from less DPS running rampant. That actually includes increased difficulty, among other things.

Spindleclutch - 7k dps per DD to complete Bloodspawn
ICP - 15k dps per DD to complete Warrior/Zerker/Necro/templar
vMoL - 20k dps per DD to complete first boss
Cradle of Shadows (new 4man) - 25k dps per DD to complete dps checks.

ZoS has made it abundantly clear that they have no intention of stopping the dps progression as they have been designing content for it since the games release. While I might agree that tanks/healers tend to get second priority (to a good DD), thats just how this game is.

I believe that is because people constantly pursue higher DPS, then claim everything is too easy. They might lower that if things changed.

These forums are full of petitions of hundreds (and sometimes thousands) of players wanting X change that ZoS has flat out ignored, until you can provide reasonable proof that ZoS is interested in lowering dps checks on content already released your idea is not only impractical but its functionally impossible.

I see the reasonable proof everyday.

"ZOS, increase the difficulty, this game is too easy!"
"ZOS, nerf this and that because it hits too hard!"

That among other things of course.

Humatiel

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

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Humatiel wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Humatiel wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Humatiel wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Humatiel wrote: »

So your answer to ZoS designing a game that they immediately broke is to limit players themselves.

We've got players hitting ~50k dps in proper environments so even if we were to "limit dps" it would still be in the 30-40k range, hell the two new 4man dungeons coming out require 25k+ dps per DD to finish. As most players will never hit that this argument is relatively moot.

And why exactly do they require that much dps to finish? Is it to finish in a given time period or is it because of something else?

Each of the dungeons has a "dps race" or the environment itself will kill the team.

Which is why Tanks need an AoE taunt and healers are so necessary.

This conversation is about a dps ceiling, trying to force correlative perspectives is a whole different matter.

Indeed it is, but there are so many things that could come about from less DPS running rampant. That actually includes increased difficulty, among other things.

Spindleclutch - 7k dps per DD to complete Bloodspawn
ICP - 15k dps per DD to complete Warrior/Zerker/Necro/templar
vMoL - 20k dps per DD to complete first boss
Cradle of Shadows (new 4man) - 25k dps per DD to complete dps checks.

ZoS has made it abundantly clear that they have no intention of stopping the dps progression as they have been designing content for it since the games release. While I might agree that tanks/healers tend to get second priority (to a good DD), thats just how this game is.

25k per DD? So stam builds without vMA weapons need not apply?

Stam builds with vMA weapons are topping at around 45k right now, its not a 20k difference without. That being said 25k per dd is the minimum needed and as always that can flux a bit depending on the team. take for instance a healer able to use jesusbeam efficiently and that will lower each dps requirement. There are many ways to bend this with the right coordination.

Tekyn

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

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Tekyn wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Tekyn wrote: »

There should never for any reason be a hard damage cap. Plenty of games have diminishing returns, but ESO moved away from that.

The problem is that there isn't any compelling thing to do besides DPS. There are zero specializations outside of the holy trinity... DPS, tanky, healer. Buffs and debuffs are all generalized. Snares and roots are common side effects on other skills, and players can get themselves out of them anyway. Combat in ESO is basically just add HP or remove HP.

Until they add some effects that give a strategic advantage over pure damage, the game is just who can get the biggest numbers without dying first.

Which is exactly why a damage cap would have people thinking outside the hitbox.

No, it wouldn't. You'd hit the damage cap and then stack defense and you'd still have everyone doing the same thing, but taking longer to die.

Which would prompt people to make tanks for PvP because right now they are not viable.

You say that like it would be promoting diversity, but it would not... There would just be a magic point where you are done upping DPS and start upping defense. Everyone that hit the damage cap regularly would follow that pattern.

It's a sloppy band aid fix that won't really solve anything. As long as combat is just +/- HP DPS will be the better option. Fixing that requires either adding new skills or changing existing ones to neutralize portions of DPS so that strategy becomes just as important as DPS.

I agree that there is a problem but I disagree with your solution.

UltimaJoe777

Tekyn wrote: »

show previous quotes

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Tekyn wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Tekyn wrote: »

There should never for any reason be a hard damage cap. Plenty of games have diminishing returns, but ESO moved away from that.

The problem is that there isn't any compelling thing to do besides DPS. There are zero specializations outside of the holy trinity... DPS, tanky, healer. Buffs and debuffs are all generalized. Snares and roots are common side effects on other skills, and players can get themselves out of them anyway. Combat in ESO is basically just add HP or remove HP.

Until they add some effects that give a strategic advantage over pure damage, the game is just who can get the biggest numbers without dying first.

Which is exactly why a damage cap would have people thinking outside the hitbox.

No, it wouldn't. You'd hit the damage cap and then stack defense and you'd still have everyone doing the same thing, but taking longer to die.

Which would prompt people to make tanks for PvP because right now they are not viable.

You say that like it would be promoting diversity, but it would not... There would just be a magic point where you are done upping DPS and start upping defense. Everyone that hit the damage cap regularly would follow that pattern.

It's a sloppy band aid fix that won't really solve anything. As long as combat is just +/- HP DPS will be the better option. Fixing that requires either adding new skills or changing existing ones to neutralize portions of DPS so that strategy becomes just as important as DPS.

I agree that there is a problem but I disagree with your solution.

I can see your standpoint on it and why you'd disagree but my hope is if people see DPS caps at some point they won't see DPS as the be all end all anymore like they do now. It would also stop power creeps in the future lol

Anti_Virus

I agree OP dmg needs a cap.

Sooner or later battle spirit will need to be 90% dmg reduction 90% healing and 90% shield strength.

Hard cap dmg

Or remove the dmg mitigation hard cap.