Concept: Damage Cap
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Anti_Virus✭✭✭✭✭
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No, it wouldn't. You'd hit the damage cap and then stack defense and you'd still have everyone doing the same thing, but taking longer to die.
So you like the metailty of 1 shooting people? I thought this was an MMORPG not an FPS.Power Wealth And Influence.1 -
UltimaJoe777✭✭✭✭✭
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Yet another who cannot give a reason... Such invalidity.Guildmaster of Power With Numbers in PS4 NA Server's Aldmeri Dominion.
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Tekyn✭✭✭ShadowStarKing wrote: »So you like the metailty of 1 shooting people? I thought this was an MMORPG not an FPS.It's a sloppy band aid fix that won't really solve anything. As long as combat is just +/- HP DPS will be the better option. Fixing that requires either adding new skills or changing existing ones to neutralize portions of DPS so that strategy becomes just as important as DPS.
I agree that there is a problem but I disagree with your solution.-- Khajiit like to sneak --1 -
svartorn✭✭✭✭✭
✭UltimaJoe777 wrote: »
Yet another who cannot give a reason... Such invalidity.
Because it's a stupid idea.
Most players in this game can't manage over 5k dps and you want to put caps? lol2 -
Xundiin✭✭✭✭You're trying to force people to run a race while cutting of one of their legs. DPS caps won't promote out of the box thinking. Unless they come up with viable builds/classes that can be support builds (these are builds that specialize into buffs/debuffs) then nothing will change. You can add caps or forget caps the DPS race will continue.
So yes, this is one of the dumbest ideas ever posted on these forums.#SavePlayer10 -
TheValkyn✭✭✭✭✭
✭UltimaJoe777 wrote: »So nowadays it's mostly DPS this, DPS that, and as a result everyone invests as much as they can into DPS to get it as high as possible. Well what if there was a limit to how much damage you could do in a single hit? Would that be more beneficial across the board or would it bring more problems? Feel free to discuss.
By the way, this cap would apply to heals too.
You joined the game at console launch from what I'm reading. We used to actually have this sort of cap (weapon/spell dmg stat cap though) and it had the absolute best PvP experience I've ever played. We called them soft caps because there would be a point where you'd receive a diminishing return and then a hard cap where there was no return.
Edited by TheValkyn on July 3, 2016 10:08PM1 -
DocFrost72✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭So your answer to ZoS designing a game that they immediately broke is to limit players themselves.
We've got players hitting ~50k dps in proper environments so even if we were to "limit dps" it would still be in the 30-40k range, hell the two new 4man dungeons coming out require 25k+ dps per DD to finish. As most players will never hit that this argument is relatively moot.
If this is true, and it isn't just a mechanic we're missing, I will be very, very, VERY upset.
Dps races aren't fun ZoS. Mechanics > Numbers.1 -
UltimaJoe777✭✭✭✭✭
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Because it's a stupid idea.
Most players in this game can't manage over 5k dps and you want to put caps? lol
Most you say? I must respectfully disagree. I must also call hate as it sounds like you're trying to belittle the playerbase.
You joined the game at console launch from what I'm reading. We used to actually have this sort of cap (weapon/spell dmg stat cap though) and it had the absolute best PvP experience I've ever played. We called them soft caps because there would be a point where you'd receive a diminishing return and then a hard cap where there was no return.
Yes I am aware there used to be soft caps and that there no longer isn't. Makes you wonder why they were removed huh?Edited by UltimaJoe777 on July 3, 2016 10:09PMGuildmaster of Power With Numbers in PS4 NA Server's Aldmeri Dominion.
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Xundiin✭✭✭✭
Stam builds with vMA weapons are topping at around 45k right now, its not a 20k difference without. That being said 25k per dd is the minimum needed and as always that can flux a bit depending on the team. take for instance a healer able to use jesusbeam efficiently and that will lower each dps requirement. There are many ways to bend this with the right coordination.
Most stam builds I've seen with vMA weapons top out at around 30-33k. I've only seen Stam DK's get 45K. So yeah. 1 class =/= all stam builds.#SavePlayer10 -
Humatiel✭✭✭✭DocFrost72 wrote: »
If this is true, and it isn't just a mechanic we're missing, I will be very, very, VERY upset.
Dps races aren't fun ZoS. Mechanics > Numbers.
For what its worth I agree with you, I imagine its more like 22k or possibly less as it appears (from my testing and Alcasts vids) that the team dps was ~50k. expecting the healer/tank to do 2-5k dps isnt outlandish. Each dungeon does have dps races though, imagine the Frozen Ring stages of VDSA just smaller and faster.VMA | vHRC-HM | vAA-HM | vSO-HM | vMOL-HM
700+ CP
GM of Luxury Raids0 -
UltimaJoe777✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭You're trying to force people to run a race while cutting of one of their legs. DPS caps won't promote out of the box thinking. Unless they come up with viable builds/classes that can be support builds (these are builds that specialize into buffs/debuffs) then nothing will change. You can add caps or forget caps the DPS race will continue.
So yes, this is one of the dumbest ideas ever posted on these forums.
Well consider damage caps the finish line of that race. No legs cut off in the process, just an end to the race. Otherwise they will run forever.
There's more viability to other builds than people think, but right now DPS is too rampant to see it. I'm not saying it's bad to be DPS but it's pretty bad when EVERYONE wants to be DPS. Where's the variety there? That basically leaves tanks and healers out entirely, even though healers depend on such power too.Guildmaster of Power With Numbers in PS4 NA Server's Aldmeri Dominion.
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Shadesofkin✭✭✭✭✭
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To broaden my answer, I just don't believe caps are necessary, it's a band-aide at best and at worst it's a direct appeal to forcing playstyles on people. Now, I think that the DPS checks in the game are a little out of control, but that shouldn't stop us from being able to reach whatever stupid numbers we want to reach, it should make the devs get creative in their approach to new mechanics and events.Edited by Shadesofkin on July 3, 2016 10:21PM0 -
UltimaJoe777✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Shadesofkin wrote: »
To broaden my answer, I just don't believe caps are necessary, it's a band-aide at best and at worst it's a direct appeal to forcing playstyles on people. Now, I think that the DPS checks in the game are a little out of control, but that shouldn't stop us from being able to reach whatever stupid numbers we want to reach, it should make the devs get creative in their approach to new mechanics and events.
Problem is if people keep reaching these numbers without restriction DPS will push all the other playstyles out the window due to the simple fact it'll be the one and only way to play. Getting creative with ways to entice people to stray would be nice but would require a huge bolster in defensive play. In other words either counter DPS or restrict it.Edited by UltimaJoe777 on July 3, 2016 10:25PMGuildmaster of Power With Numbers in PS4 NA Server's Aldmeri Dominion.
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Shadesofkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭UltimaJoe777 wrote: »
Problem is if people keep reaching these numbers without restriction DPS will push all the other playstyles out the window due to the simple fact it'll be the one and only way to play. Getting creative with ways to entice people to stray would be nice but would require a huge bolster in defensive play. In other words either counter DPS or restrict it.
I actually wish they'd start getting creative with the NPC's abilities rather than giving them cast away player skills. I mean, imagine if npcs could apply the poisons we craft that make casting skills cost more...that would slow dps down without directly capping.0 -
Xundiin✭✭✭✭UltimaJoe777 wrote: »
Well consider damage caps the finish line of that race. No legs cut off in the process, just an end to the race. Otherwise they will run forever.
There's more viability to other builds than people think, but right now DPS is too rampant to see it. I'm not saying it's bad to be DPS but it's pretty bad when EVERYONE wants to be DPS. Where's the variety there? That basically leaves tanks and healers out entirely, even though healers depend on such power too.
Actually it is. DPS is needed to get through content. DPS capping makes it to where lesser skilled players would have to pull more of their weight. This makes it to where certain guilds would not be able to run content as a group since they might have players who don't play in the top 50%. This creates a problem. Right now players that can get into the top 25% of performance can pull the lessers along. Can't do that with damage caps. So yes you are still cutting off the foot. or more importantly blocking people from content or even worse putting an us vs them mentality that doesn't need to be added.
Tanks are viable and so are healers. but you don't need 16 tanks to run a trial. So it's pointless to try and take more than 1-2 at most in an 8 man group and more than 2 healers with 1-2 off healers. The rest is DPS. Trying to say that Tanks aren't viable or healers for that matter is trying to strong-arm you point of view. They are viable, but you need about 1/4th the amount of them than you do DPS. This isn't a new concept, this is a concept that has been around since EQ and earlier.#SavePlayer10 -
UltimaJoe777✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Shadesofkin wrote: »
I actually wish they'd start getting creative with the NPC's abilities rather than giving them cast away player skills. I mean, imagine if npcs could apply the poisons we craft that make casting skills cost more...that would slow dps down without directly capping.
At the same time we'd want their abilities
Guildmaster of Power With Numbers in PS4 NA Server's Aldmeri Dominion.
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Shadesofkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭UltimaJoe777 wrote: »
I do often wonder why I can't leap into the air like the NPC's in Wrothgar.0 -
UltimaJoe777✭✭✭✭✭
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Actually it is. DPS is needed to get through content. DPS capping makes it to where lesser skilled players would have to pull more of their weight. This makes it to where certain guilds would not be able to run content as a group since they might have players who don't play in the top 50%. This creates a problem. Right now players that can get into the top 25% of performance can pull the lessers along. Can't do that with damage caps. So yes you are still cutting off the foot. or more importantly blocking people from content or even worse putting an us vs them mentality that doesn't need to be added.
Tanks are viable and so are healers. but you don't need 16 tanks to run a trial. So it's pointless to try and take more than 1-2 at most in an 8 man group and more than 2 healers with 1-2 off healers. The rest is DPS. Trying to say that Tanks aren't viable or healers for that matter is trying to strong-arm you point of view. They are viable, but you need about 1/4th the amount of them than you do DPS. This isn't a new concept, this is a concept that has been around since EQ and earlier.
I personally believe they ARE viable, but not everyone does which is the point I was trying to make. Also people shouldn't NEED to drag others along in group content. Everyone should be able to do their part, even if they aren't as strong as the others. If these people that cannot do much are doing little to nothing at all then they do not deserve to be in those groups anyway.Guildmaster of Power With Numbers in PS4 NA Server's Aldmeri Dominion.
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Esquire1980g_ESO✭✭✭I'm not all that big on capping anything. Let the players decide where is enough and devs develop accordingly for future for PVE and PVP.
Now, with no DPS cap, the original design of the game has changed and so should ALL the tools. Therefore, ZOS needs to revisit armor mitigation. 50% is WAY too low for all the DPS that's being generated today (with more coming next patch, ala 10 more points in CP DPS trees).
We don't have a cap on DPS but do have a cap on mitigation (armor-50%). What's that's going to end up doing with power creep (we all know that's coming) is end up with PVP here the exact same thing that STO has....., whoever hits the button 1st, WINS! Which destroyed PVP there so much that a Cryptic dev came to their forums making the statement of; "We could take PVP out of the game and no1 would notice". Now, Cryptic sells power in their store and ZOS allows it and makes it in-game rewards. The end result is about the same.
Armor needs to be re-visited and upped. Where i'd start would be light - 25%, Medium - 50%, and Heavy - 80% pure mitigation. Rework the passives to get away from mag = light power, sta = medium power, with maybe going more speed limitations as the heavier you get.1 -
Xundiin✭✭✭✭UltimaJoe777 wrote: »
I personally believe they ARE viable, but not everyone does which is the point I was trying to make. Also people shouldn't NEED to drag others along in group content. Everyone should be able to do their part, even if they aren't as strong as the others. If these people that cannot do much are doing little to nothing at all then they do not deserve to be in those groups anyway.
And here starts the elitism argument. I play with people that I enjoy the company of, but they are not the greatest players. So what you are telling me is because they can't compete they shouldn't be allowed to play the game. Way to invalidate you're argument.#SavePlayer12 -
Wollust✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭No thank you. We have seen what a global band aid fix can do. I'll kindly refer you to the crap called Battle Spirit. Reducing every damage by 50%.
Putting a cap on damage output would essentially be the same as the battle spirit, and too much stuff was turned to *** when they introduced it.
There needs to be more individualized solutions. It's no good if you force people to invest into their defense just because their output numbers are artificially limited. Let the bosses hit harder, make it a requirement to reach certain armor levels or health pools or risk getting one shotted. Whatever. But not something as ludicrous as a cap on DPS.Susano'o
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UltimaJoe777✭✭✭✭✭
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And here starts the elitism argument. I play with people that I enjoy the company of, but they are not the greatest players. So what you are telling me is because they can't compete they shouldn't be allowed to play the game. Way to invalidate you're argument.
No that is not what I am saying. I am saying as long as those people do their best to help out they are fine, regardless of their build. Those that just piggyback and do nothing are the ones I was talking about.Guildmaster of Power With Numbers in PS4 NA Server's Aldmeri Dominion.
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NoMoreChillies✭✭✭✭✭
✭Need to remove caps not add moreInsulting people on the internet is cowardly.0 -
UltimaJoe777✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭No thank you. We have seen what a global band aid fix can do. I'll kindly refer you to the crap called Battle Spirit. Reducing every damage by 50%.
Putting a cap on damage output would essentially be the same as the battle spirit, and too much stuff was turned to *** when they introduced it.
There needs to be more individualized solutions. It's no good if you force people to invest into their defense just because their output numbers are artificially limited. Let the bosses hit harder, make it a requirement to reach certain armor levels or health pools or risk getting one shotted. Whatever. But not something as ludicrous as a cap on DPS.
Battle Spirit also influences healing and damage shields, and therefore is not specific to DPS. It also does not apply to NPCs in IC but that's another story.Guildmaster of Power With Numbers in PS4 NA Server's Aldmeri Dominion.
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Vangy✭✭✭✭✭
✭Dont need damage caps. What we do need;
1. Health as a stat needs to be worth more than just health...... Stam/mag increases resource pool, increases damage, increases healing.... Health..... just sits there cos nothing worthwhile scales off it... Like blazing shield etc, need absurd amounts of health while giving up everything just to be viable.... If 1 point of health gave more, like health + some resists or a lot more health than mag/stam, then it would be a start.
2. Resistances and penetration need to be reworked..... Its kinda stupid that even in full heavy (without buffs and reinforced) you are topped off at about 18k resists and the average penetration is 12-15k..... I mean...... A full heavy armour user would have 5k resists, medium about 2 and light at 0...... ? Its no point trying to even get resists unless u can clear the 20k mark... That means to light armour and medium armour users, its completely worthless...
3. Bring back bracing.....
(2)V16 Dk- stam dps/stam tank/mag dps
(2)V16 Sorc- mag dps/stam dps
(2)V16 nb- stam dps/mag dps
(1)v16 temp- mag tank/mag dps
CP: 610 and counting
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UltimaJoe777✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Dont need damage caps. What we do need;
1. Health as a stat needs to be worth more than just health...... Stam/mag increases resource pool, increases damage, increases healing.... Health..... just sits there cos nothing worthwhile scales off it... Like blazing shield etc, need absurd amounts of health while giving up everything just to be viable.... If 1 point of health gave more, like health + some resists or a lot more health than mag/stam, then it would be a start.
2. Resistances and penetration need to be reworked..... Its kinda stupid that even in full heavy (without buffs and reinforced) you are topped off at about 18k resists and the average penetration is 12-15k..... I mean...... A full heavy armour user would have 5k resists, medium about 2 and light at 0...... ? Its no point trying to even get resists unless u can clear the 20k mark... That means to light armour and medium armour users, its completely worthless...
3. Bring back bracing.....
1. I heard they plan to remove that extra bit from Magicka and Stamina? Some validation on that rumor would be nice though.
2. If you aim to have DPS while wearing heavy armor then yeah those parameters are expected. Anyone that tanks or goes for more though gets way more than that. All depends on how much you invest in what.
3. You know in a sense it does feel like Wrath was given to us to try to make tanks more capable of decent damage... Perhaps Zenimax IS entirely in favor of DPS builds and would never, EVER consider capping damage and healing. That said though, where exactly DO they plan to take this game in terms of roles?Guildmaster of Power With Numbers in PS4 NA Server's Aldmeri Dominion.
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xblackroxe✭✭✭✭✭
Spindleclutch - 7k dps per DD to complete Bloodspawn
ICP - 15k dps per DD to complete Warrior/Zerker/Necro/templar
vMoL - 20k dps per DD to complete first boss
Cradle of Shadows (new 4man) - 25k dps per DD to complete dps checks.
ZoS has made it abundantly clear that they have no intention of stopping the dps progression as they have been designing content for it since the games release. While I might agree that tanks/healers tend to get second priority (to a good DD), thats just how this game is.
That is just the cheap way to make "difficulty". It would be so much better if they implemented actual difficutly through mechanics that can´t be outdps´ed like 2nd boss vMOL for example.Member of HODOR
Dro-m'Athra Destroyer4 -
DocFrost72✭✭✭✭✭
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For what its worth I agree with you, I imagine its more like 22k or possibly less as it appears (from my testing and Alcasts vids) that the team dps was ~50k. expecting the healer/tank to do 2-5k dps isnt outlandish. Each dungeon does have dps races though, imagine the Frozen Ring stages of VDSA just smaller and faster.
A dps race can be okay, if it doesn't alienate a good chunk of people. Until the day pulling 22k dps is average, no, NO way I will be happy with a 22k dps check. (And that is coming from a guy who pulls 26 without SPC or warhorn).
I don't think content should be made easy...but it isn't fun or exciting to stack and burn everything.0 -
xblackroxe✭✭✭✭✭I don´t like that idea. Its just another cheap way to try and fix stuff instead of actually adressing the problems. Also I don´t get why people always say tanks and healers are underappreciated. I really don´t. It makes runs so much smoother to have someone taunt and another one heal. For every dungeon 2 dps can kill everything easily and for trials like vMOL you need more than 1 tank and probably a 2nd healer is a good idea too.Member of HODOR
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