Concept: Damage Cap

UltimaJoe777

xblackroxe wrote: »

I don´t like that idea. Its just another cheap way to try and fix stuff instead of actually adressing the problems. Also I don´t get why people always say tanks and healers are underappreciated. I really don´t. It makes runs so much smoother to have someone taunt and another one heal. For every dungeon 2 dps can kill everything easily and for trials like vMOL you need more than 1 tank and probably a 2nd healer is a good idea too.

Healers are without a doubt not threatened by DPSers because they draw from the same fuel. Tanks are the ones lesser looked at though because tanks need proper defense and DPSing is more popular for various reasons. I for one welcome all 3 equally but sadly the population has spoken and more often than not you'll see DPSers.

P.S. My healer and tank are awesome

Talyena

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

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Humatiel wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Humatiel wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Humatiel wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Humatiel wrote: »

So your answer to ZoS designing a game that they immediately broke is to limit players themselves.

We've got players hitting ~50k dps in proper environments so even if we were to "limit dps" it would still be in the 30-40k range, hell the two new 4man dungeons coming out require 25k+ dps per DD to finish. As most players will never hit that this argument is relatively moot.

And why exactly do they require that much dps to finish? Is it to finish in a given time period or is it because of something else?

Each of the dungeons has a "dps race" or the environment itself will kill the team.

Which is why Tanks need an AoE taunt and healers are so necessary.

This conversation is about a dps ceiling, trying to force correlative perspectives is a whole different matter.

Indeed it is, but there are so many things that could come about from less DPS running rampant. That actually includes increased difficulty, among other things.

Spindleclutch - 7k dps per DD to complete Bloodspawn
ICP - 15k dps per DD to complete Warrior/Zerker/Necro/templar
vMoL - 20k dps per DD to complete first boss
Cradle of Shadows (new 4man) - 25k dps per DD to complete dps checks.

ZoS has made it abundantly clear that they have no intention of stopping the dps progression as they have been designing content for it since the games release. While I might agree that tanks/healers tend to get second priority (to a good DD), thats just how this game is.

25k per DD? So stam builds without vMA weapons need not apply?

Or in other words, a majority of players need not buy.

Reapor

Thats fine put a cap of 200k per hit im down for that.

If you are getting hit for more then 6-7k per hit in pvp its a question of gear setup up honestly (excluding certain skills ofc).

dday3six

DPS roles are always more popular, it's like that in most MMO's. The problem is that ESO is a singleplayer game with light MMO elements. Barely any mechanics require dedicated Tanks and Healers. Nothing in the campaign teaches players any notion of what a Tank or Healer does in a group setting. Then group content can be completely skipped so there is little reason for players to learn to work together. That's the issue. ESO has one side of the MMO coin with the trinity, but barely any of the other side that gives Tanks and Healers a reason to be needed, thus more desirable to be played.

Capping burst damage will only serve to force players who otherwise ignored a rotation to adopt one in order to have reasonable DPS. That will make the game a lot more complex than the average player is use to, or has any experience with. Which will not help in the slightest.

ADarklore

I will say this... in almost ALL MMOs the MAJORITY of players ONLY want to DPS... that's ALL they enjoy doing. Trying to FORCE players away from DPSing would only force more players to LEAVE the game. Right now the min/maxers are all about damage increase... put a cap on it and they would walk away, not 'become a tank' and keep playing. So instead of being all about damage stacking, you'd turn the game into being about defense stacking... but stacking is stacking. Next you'd be saying, "put a cap on damage stacking"... so what's after that OP? What next would you limit because players aren't playing YOUR WAY?!?

elium85

@UltimaJoe777 You say no one actually gives mathematical answers w/logic to your initial idea. I will.

Let's say we put a damage cap on single tick. What's the single highest hit a StamDK or StamSorc will do in a trials setting? Probably 25K from an vMA weapon empowered Poison Injection DoT tick w/full buffs including Major Force. Alright, what's the highest single tick a magicka class will do? Overload, Spectral Bow, Shooting Star, and Radiant Oppression all tick for 40K+ and a few of those can break 55K+.

So, I'll ask you, if a damage cap of say, 20K per tick was put in place, which classes would suffer the most? Magicka Templars, MageBlades, and Magicka Sorcs; none of the leading DPS classes.

DPS in this game is about smaller DoTs not large damage ticks. A single hit damage cap mechanic will only imbalance the game further.

Anhedonie

Divide everything by 10. Oh, wait...

UltimaJoe777

ADarklore wrote: »

I will say this... in almost ALL MMOs the MAJORITY of players ONLY want to DPS... that's ALL they enjoy doing. Trying to FORCE players away from DPSing would only force more players to LEAVE the game. Right now the min/maxers are all about damage increase... put a cap on it and they would walk away, not 'become a tank' and keep playing. So instead of being all about damage stacking, you'd turn the game into being about defense stacking... but stacking is stacking. Next you'd be saying, "put a cap on damage stacking"... so what's after that OP? What next would you limit because players aren't playing YOUR WAY?!?

There are factors involved that would beg to differ. I wonder how many people here miss soft caps? I sure know a lot of people want AoE caps. You say it's "my way" yet never anywhere did I say I was against DPS. I have both 1 Magicka and 1 Stamina DPS character myself as well as a healer and a tank. I do a bit of everything and they are all perfectly viable. However, the enticement of DPS is what makes the "majority" you speak of turn their backs on healing and/or tanking, tanking moreso since as I've said before healing feeds from the same fuel DPS does: power. Proof of my point lies in this post here:

dday3six wrote: »

DPS roles are always more popular, it's like that in most MMO's. The problem is that ESO is a singleplayer game with light MMO elements. Barely any mechanics require dedicated Tanks and Healers. Nothing in the campaign teaches players any notion of what a Tank or Healer does in a group setting. Then group content can be completely skipped so there is little reason for players to learn to work together. That's the issue. ESO has one side of the MMO coin with the trinity, but barely any of the other side that gives Tanks and Healers a reason to be needed, thus more desirable to be played.

Capping burst damage will only serve to force players who otherwise ignored a rotation to adopt one in order to have reasonable DPS. That will make the game a lot more complex than the average player is use to, or has any experience with. Which will not help in the slightest.

He's right; DPS is the "easy road" because all you have to do is just do a bunch of damage to get by and anything else is oft times what people consider too much work to pull off. It need not be that way but to each their own... All this thread proposes is they cap the damage a single attack can do or healing a single skill can do at, well... let's say 20k? Nothing unreasonable but enough to stop the constant power creeps that turn people more and more toward the Dark Power Side.

elium85 wrote: »

@UltimaJoe777 You say no one actually gives mathematical answers w/logic to your initial idea. I will.

Let's say we put a damage cap on single tick. What's the single highest hit a StamDK or StamSorc will do in a trials setting? Probably 25K from an vMA weapon empowered Poison Injection DoT tick w/full buffs including Major Force. Alright, what's the highest single tick a magicka class will do? Overload, Spectral Bow, Shooting Star, and Radiant Oppression all tick for 40K+ and a few of those can break 55K+.

So, I'll ask you, if a damage cap of say, 20K per tick was put in place, which classes would suffer the most? Magicka Templars, MageBlades, and Magicka Sorcs; none of the leading DPS classes.

DPS in this game is about smaller DoTs not large damage ticks. A single hit damage cap mechanic will only imbalance the game further.

I can see your point (and for the record never asked for mathematical answers lol) so to answer your concern perhaps there can be a cap on dot and hot too. If 20k is a bit low it can be set higher and the dot can be set in accordance too. It's all about the power creep when it boils down to it. And even if a Damage Cap isn't the best solution Zenimax can easily look into buffing defense overall, making resistance more viable in PvP by cutting back on penetration, and as long as resources have the secondary effects like extra damage and whatnot can indeed make health do the same for resistances. This is a discussion after all and brainstorming and debating of any sort is welcome, but the goal here is to find a way to balance roles a bit so the entire playerbase doesn't feel DPS is the ONLY way to go to be effective.

Ep1kMalware

redspecter23 wrote: »

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Kammakazi wrote: »

Couldn't have said it any better.

+10. OP does not play the game apperantly.

kills are the only progression you get in any aspect of this game. OP needs to go play hello kitty island adventure.

Dradhok

A solid 100k hit would be a good cap.

UltimaJoe777

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

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redspecter23 wrote: »

Kammakazi wrote: »

Couldn't have said it any better.

+10. OP does not play the game apperantly.

kills are the only progression you get in any aspect of this game. OP needs to go play hello kitty island adventure.

You're non-constructive hate-talk is not helpful. Please refrain from it.

Regarding you saying kills are the only progression though it can be pretty difficult to score kills when you GET killed. DPS is a double-edged sword, especially when everyone wants to do it and cannot properly take hits as a result. Sure you could just say "hitting them fast and hard enough would remedy the problem" but that isn't always true.

Cogo

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

So nowadays it's mostly DPS this, DPS that, and as a result everyone invests as much as they can into DPS to get it as high as possible. Well what if there was a limit to how much damage you could do in a single hit? Would that be more beneficial across the board or would it bring more problems? Feel free to discuss.

By the way, this cap would apply to heals too.

Is this a joke? Just in case it isn't.

WillhelmBlack

All we need is the return of softcaps.

UltimaJoe777

Cogo wrote: »

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UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

So nowadays it's mostly DPS this, DPS that, and as a result everyone invests as much as they can into DPS to get it as high as possible. Well what if there was a limit to how much damage you could do in a single hit? Would that be more beneficial across the board or would it bring more problems? Feel free to discuss.

By the way, this cap would apply to heals too.

Is this a joke?

No, it's a discussion.

ArchMikem

Capping damage output may even out Cyrodiil PvP quite a bit actually. It would force players into more even and fairer engagements, making them rely more on using certain abilities at certain times instead of just spamming the ones they know they'll crit the highest with over and over again.

The constant complaining over things like the Jesus Beam would vanish overnight.

dday3six

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

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dday3six wrote: »

DPS roles are always more popular, it's like that in most MMO's. The problem is that ESO is a singleplayer game with light MMO elements. Barely any mechanics require dedicated Tanks and Healers. Nothing in the campaign teaches players any notion of what a Tank or Healer does in a group setting. Then group content can be completely skipped so there is little reason for players to learn to work together. That's the issue. ESO has one side of the MMO coin with the trinity, but barely any of the other side that gives Tanks and Healers a reason to be needed, thus more desirable to be played.

Capping burst damage will only serve to force players who otherwise ignored a rotation to adopt one in order to have reasonable DPS. That will make the game a lot more complex than the average player is use to, or has any experience with. Which will not help in the slightest.

He's right; DPS is the "easy road" because all you have to do is just do a bunch of damage to get by and anything else is oft times what people consider too much work to pull off. It need not be that way but to each their own... All this thread proposes is they cap the damage a single attack can do or healing a single skill can do at, well... let's say 20k? Nothing unreasonable but enough to stop the constant power creeps that turn people more and more toward the Dark Power Side.

The number of skills that can do over 20k consistantly in one hit is quite small. So what would be the point? If your motive is to actually stop players from focusing on DPS only then the bar would need to be low enough that either there is no gain, or so little gain that it's better to strengthen other areas.

Further you know the only time a DPS can actually focus solely on DPS? As in slot no defensive/utility skills, and only slot abilities that directly or indirectly contribute to their damage output. When they're grouped with a competent Tank and Healer. Solo you run heals and possibly CC. In PVP you'll definiately run CC along with heals.

UltimaJoe777

dday3six wrote: »

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UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

DPS roles are always more popular, it's like that in most MMO's. The problem is that ESO is a singleplayer game with light MMO elements. Barely any mechanics require dedicated Tanks and Healers. Nothing in the campaign teaches players any notion of what a Tank or Healer does in a group setting. Then group content can be completely skipped so there is little reason for players to learn to work together. That's the issue. ESO has one side of the MMO coin with the trinity, but barely any of the other side that gives Tanks and Healers a reason to be needed, thus more desirable to be played.

Capping burst damage will only serve to force players who otherwise ignored a rotation to adopt one in order to have reasonable DPS. That will make the game a lot more complex than the average player is use to, or has any experience with. Which will not help in the slightest.

He's right; DPS is the "easy road" because all you have to do is just do a bunch of damage to get by and anything else is oft times what people consider too much work to pull off. It need not be that way but to each their own... All this thread proposes is they cap the damage a single attack can do or healing a single skill can do at, well... let's say 20k? Nothing unreasonable but enough to stop the constant power creeps that turn people more and more toward the Dark Power Side.

The number of skills that can do over 20k consistantly in one hit is quite small. So what would be the point? If your motive is to actually stop players from focusing on DPS only then the bar would need to be low enough that either there is no gain, or so little gain that it's better to strengthen other areas.

Further you know the only time a DPS can actually focus solely on DPS? As in slot no defensive/utility skills, and only slot abilities that directly or indirectly contribute to their damage output. When they're grouped with a competent Tank and Healer. Solo you run heals and possibly CC. In PVP you'll definiately run CC along with heals.

The motive behind this thread is to see an increase in variety, not see people with high DPS and less than 20k health, even food buffed, all over the place. Of course I'm not saying Damage Caps are the perfect solution, but it's a concept worth exploring, hence this discussion. I've played games with damage caps and I can see it working if it happens. PC Players would know better than I how good or bad soft caps were, and if they were bad then this angle would not work out but is still worth exploring.

lolo_01b16_ESO

How should that work? If you limit it to lets say 10 -15k per hit stam dks will barly notice it and still pull their 40k+ dps but other classes will be much weaker when skills like overload, assassins will, impale or radiant opression only hit for 15k max.
A better way do reduce dps would be to add reasons for people to get more defense and design fights in a way that mechanics don't get easier the shorter the fight lasts. Most mechanics are time based so in a short fight you can just ignore them. This should be changed. I remember in the past you could die to Bogdan easiely if your dps was too high because then he did multiple mechanics within a very short time frame.
Additionally in the past we used to have hp and resistance requirements when doing SO or AA hardmode. Nowerdays thanks to cp I can survive the serpent hardmode with 16k hp and 7 piece light armour.

dday3six

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

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dday3six wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

DPS roles are always more popular, it's like that in most MMO's. The problem is that ESO is a singleplayer game with light MMO elements. Barely any mechanics require dedicated Tanks and Healers. Nothing in the campaign teaches players any notion of what a Tank or Healer does in a group setting. Then group content can be completely skipped so there is little reason for players to learn to work together. That's the issue. ESO has one side of the MMO coin with the trinity, but barely any of the other side that gives Tanks and Healers a reason to be needed, thus more desirable to be played.

Capping burst damage will only serve to force players who otherwise ignored a rotation to adopt one in order to have reasonable DPS. That will make the game a lot more complex than the average player is use to, or has any experience with. Which will not help in the slightest.

He's right; DPS is the "easy road" because all you have to do is just do a bunch of damage to get by and anything else is oft times what people consider too much work to pull off. It need not be that way but to each their own... All this thread proposes is they cap the damage a single attack can do or healing a single skill can do at, well... let's say 20k? Nothing unreasonable but enough to stop the constant power creeps that turn people more and more toward the Dark Power Side.

The number of skills that can do over 20k consistantly in one hit is quite small. So what would be the point? If your motive is to actually stop players from focusing on DPS only then the bar would need to be low enough that either there is no gain, or so little gain that it's better to strengthen other areas.

Further you know the only time a DPS can actually focus solely on DPS? As in slot no defensive/utility skills, and only slot abilities that directly or indirectly contribute to their damage output. When they're grouped with a competent Tank and Healer. Solo you run heals and possibly CC. In PVP you'll definiately run CC along with heals.

The motive behind this thread is to see an increase in variety, not see people with high DPS and less than 20k health, even food buffed, all over the place. Of course I'm not saying Damage Caps are the perfect solution, but it's a concept worth exploring, hence this discussion. I've played games with damage caps and I can see it working if it happens. PC Players would know better than I how good or bad soft caps were, and if they were bad then this angle would not work out but is still worth exploring.

What are some examples of these games with damage caps, and how is ESO so closely mimicking the combat mechanics of these games that you think the addition a cap on damage per hit would be able to be seemlessy adopted by ESO?

People tend to be drawn toward the direct of what works. Optimizing is a large part of gaming. A damage cap will not change that. Players will simply shift toward another trend, and you'll be right back here decrying a lack of diversity.

Every role, class and individual player sets their HP at a level they feel most comfortable with. Not everyone goes 64 in their primary damage resource. Nevertheless why is it a bad thing if they do? It's a very common modus operandi to stack primary stats in RPG's of both the single and multiplayer variety. Because it very often the case that it's more effective to focus on one or a limited number areas, than it is to be spread thinly across multiple.

Diversity for the sake of diversity is a double edged sword when it comes to varity of choice playstyles in gaming. You'll find often times variety is merely a reskin masquerading as difference. That, or a stock of filler which lacks functional efficacy and is propped up by the few choices that actually perform well.

Turelus

I would support it if only that we can go back to the days what items choice was something more interesting that "this one has an x damage increase" as well as bringing challenge back to the game.

The reason content is so easy is because it's balanced around casual gamers DPS and the min/max of hardcore players breaks those levels too much.

Keep_Door

Kammakazi wrote: »

ADarklore

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

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ADarklore wrote: »

I will say this... in almost ALL MMOs the MAJORITY of players ONLY want to DPS... that's ALL they enjoy doing. Trying to FORCE players away from DPSing would only force more players to LEAVE the game. Right now the min/maxers are all about damage increase... put a cap on it and they would walk away, not 'become a tank' and keep playing. So instead of being all about damage stacking, you'd turn the game into being about defense stacking... but stacking is stacking. Next you'd be saying, "put a cap on damage stacking"... so what's after that OP? What next would you limit because players aren't playing YOUR WAY?!?

There are factors involved that would beg to differ. I wonder how many people here miss soft caps? I sure know a lot of people want AoE caps. You say it's "my way" yet never anywhere did I say I was against DPS. I have both 1 Magicka and 1 Stamina DPS character myself as well as a healer and a tank. I do a bit of everything and they are all perfectly viable. However, the enticement of DPS is what makes the "majority" you speak of turn their backs on healing and/or tanking, tanking moreso since as I've said before healing feeds from the same fuel DPS does: power. Proof of my point lies in this post here:

show previous quotes

dday3six wrote: »

DPS roles are always more popular, it's like that in most MMO's. The problem is that ESO is a singleplayer game with light MMO elements. Barely any mechanics require dedicated Tanks and Healers. Nothing in the campaign teaches players any notion of what a Tank or Healer does in a group setting. Then group content can be completely skipped so there is little reason for players to learn to work together. That's the issue. ESO has one side of the MMO coin with the trinity, but barely any of the other side that gives Tanks and Healers a reason to be needed, thus more desirable to be played.

Capping burst damage will only serve to force players who otherwise ignored a rotation to adopt one in order to have reasonable DPS. That will make the game a lot more complex than the average player is use to, or has any experience with. Which will not help in the slightest.

He's right; DPS is the "easy road" because all you have to do is just do a bunch of damage to get by and anything else is oft times what people consider too much work to pull off. It need not be that way but to each their own... All this thread proposes is they cap the damage a single attack can do or healing a single skill can do at, well... let's say 20k? Nothing unreasonable but enough to stop the constant power creeps that turn people more and more toward the Dark Power Side.

I like how you quote another person and then call that PROOF... that's not proof, that's just another OPINION. Furthermore, CASUAL PLAYERS tend to usually prefer DPS and not other roles, because other roles require more time investment and dedication. I played DCUO for over two years and that was always the complaint, that virtually no one wanted to run roles as most players preferred to run DPS... so even content that required roles was difficult to group for because most players were DPS; so in the end they tended to make content viable for more DPS and didn't require roles.

Also, how many here miss soft caps? Hate to tell you but many players here don't even remember soft caps... including console players. So it's tough to miss something we never experienced. Furthermore, FORCING diversity is never a good thing and I've never seen good results come from it. Like I said, most players want to DPS, and as Matt Firor has stated this game is more 'casual based' and therefore trying to force players to 'diversify' would not be good for the casual player base.

Steel_Brightblade

I can see the OP thinking and it is a simple easy fix to make players more varied and give more gearing options to all but where it is likely to fall down its how to incorporate these caps, I mean if you put Max buff damage single hit at 40K for some classes that may be a small drop but for a stamina nightblade that would be a massive blow (I have a guildy whose nightblade regularly hits for over 90K). That's just an overly simple example but the actual complexities would be huge.

Ep1kMalware

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

How should that work? If you limit it to lets say 10 -15k per hit stam dks will barly notice it and still pull their 40k+ dps but other classes will be much weaker when skills like overload, assassins will, impale or radiant opression only hit for 15k max.
A better way do reduce dps would be to add reasons for people to get more defense and design fights in a way that mechanics don't get easier the shorter the fight lasts. Most mechanics are time based so in a short fight you can just ignore them. This should be changed. I remember in the past you could die to Bogdan easiely if your dps was too high because then he did multiple mechanics within a very short time frame.
Additionally in the past we used to have hp and resistance requirements when doing SO or AA hardmode. Nowerdays thanks to cp I can survive the serpent hardmode with 16k hp and 7 piece light armour.

that's a good idea, I actua,ly like fights that make you break rotation, it's more entertaining. coa and prison had a few fights like this. esp the *** that spawn adds based on health.

but people qq and scream nerf if fights have more than 1 mechanic

Ep1kMalware

ADarklore wrote: »

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UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

I will say this... in almost ALL MMOs the MAJORITY of players ONLY want to DPS... that's ALL they enjoy doing. Trying to FORCE players away from DPSing would only force more players to LEAVE the game. Right now the min/maxers are all about damage increase... put a cap on it and they would walk away, not 'become a tank' and keep playing. So instead of being all about damage stacking, you'd turn the game into being about defense stacking... but stacking is stacking. Next you'd be saying, "put a cap on damage stacking"... so what's after that OP? What next would you limit because players aren't playing YOUR WAY?!?

There are factors involved that would beg to differ. I wonder how many people here miss soft caps? I sure know a lot of people want AoE caps. You say it's "my way" yet never anywhere did I say I was against DPS. I have both 1 Magicka and 1 Stamina DPS character myself as well as a healer and a tank. I do a bit of everything and they are all perfectly viable. However, the enticement of DPS is what makes the "majority" you speak of turn their backs on healing and/or tanking, tanking moreso since as I've said before healing feeds from the same fuel DPS does: power. Proof of my point lies in this post here:

dday3six wrote: »

DPS roles are always more popular, it's like that in most MMO's. The problem is that ESO is a singleplayer game with light MMO elements. Barely any mechanics require dedicated Tanks and Healers. Nothing in the campaign teaches players any notion of what a Tank or Healer does in a group setting. Then group content can be completely skipped so there is little reason for players to learn to work together. That's the issue. ESO has one side of the MMO coin with the trinity, but barely any of the other side that gives Tanks and Healers a reason to be needed, thus more desirable to be played.

Capping burst damage will only serve to force players who otherwise ignored a rotation to adopt one in order to have reasonable DPS. That will make the game a lot more complex than the average player is use to, or has any experience with. Which will not help in the slightest.

He's right; DPS is the "easy road" because all you have to do is just do a bunch of damage to get by and anything else is oft times what people consider too much work to pull off. It need not be that way but to each their own... All this thread proposes is they cap the damage a single attack can do or healing a single skill can do at, well... let's say 20k? Nothing unreasonable but enough to stop the constant power creeps that turn people more and more toward the Dark Power Side.

I like how you quote another person and then call that PROOF... that's not proof, that's just another OPINION. Furthermore, CASUAL PLAYERS tend to usually prefer DPS and not other roles, because other roles require more time investment and dedication. I played DCUO for over two years and that was always the complaint, that virtually no one wanted to run roles as most players preferred to run DPS... so even content that required roles was difficult to group for because most players were DPS; so in the end they tended to make content viable for more DPS and didn't require roles.

Also, how many here miss soft caps? Hate to tell you but many players here don't even remember soft caps... including console players. So it's tough to miss something we never experienced. Furthermore, FORCING diversity is never a good thing and I've never seen good results come from it. Like I said, most players want to DPS, and as Matt Firor has stated this game is more 'casual based' and therefore trying to force players to 'diversify' would not be good for the casual player base.

also let's not forget people don't use tanks/healers because 1shots and dot mehanics from adds/bosses make crybabies rush to the forums. they arent needed because of all the softcore content. Take vet sanctum for example. we run 2 tanks/3healers. definitely not useless. but that's because the content will kill you if you play like crap.

Forestd16b14_ESO

Have to agree with Joe resistance and mitigation has a hard cap of 50% so why should DPS have a hard cap ? It makes tanks less of a choice because every one can just DPS through the content and makes PvP one sided because who ever has the bigger group will no doubt have the better DPS and it's not like a tank can take the damage any more cause of the resistance hard cap.

P.S. Please do not say "oh use Malubeth L2P scrub bla bla bla" hiding behind a shield with Malubeth isn't tanking that's and pardon my French but that's just cheesing people not actually tanking. For those who don't know their is more to tanking than just hiding behind a shield.

Like either remove resistance/mitigation hard cap or give DPS one.

Forestd16b14_ESO

imnotanother wrote: »

I don't see the point in gimping players.

I am sorry to ask but was their a reason to gimp tanks ?

Yet ZoS did it any way.

DocFrost72

I've been saying it for a while now, DPS is out of control. If all that matters is stacking WD, crit, and crit modifier and DPSing past mechanics, then we need to reel it in. Hard cap isn't the -Best- way (would prefer return of softcaps), but dang it I'll give the idea a +1 OP.

Let's go back to the days of resource management, varied builds, and long, fun fights over this "Lazer beam 100k damage output in a party of four" nonsense we're dealing with now.

khele23eb17_ESO

Humatiel wrote: »

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khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Humatiel wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Humatiel wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Humatiel wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Humatiel wrote: »

So your answer to ZoS designing a game that they immediately broke is to limit players themselves.

We've got players hitting ~50k dps in proper environments so even if we were to "limit dps" it would still be in the 30-40k range, hell the two new 4man dungeons coming out require 25k+ dps per DD to finish. As most players will never hit that this argument is relatively moot.

And why exactly do they require that much dps to finish? Is it to finish in a given time period or is it because of something else?

Each of the dungeons has a "dps race" or the environment itself will kill the team.

Which is why Tanks need an AoE taunt and healers are so necessary.

This conversation is about a dps ceiling, trying to force correlative perspectives is a whole different matter.

Indeed it is, but there are so many things that could come about from less DPS running rampant. That actually includes increased difficulty, among other things.

Spindleclutch - 7k dps per DD to complete Bloodspawn
ICP - 15k dps per DD to complete Warrior/Zerker/Necro/templar
vMoL - 20k dps per DD to complete first boss
Cradle of Shadows (new 4man) - 25k dps per DD to complete dps checks.

ZoS has made it abundantly clear that they have no intention of stopping the dps progression as they have been designing content for it since the games release. While I might agree that tanks/healers tend to get second priority (to a good DD), thats just how this game is.

25k per DD? So stam builds without vMA weapons need not apply?

Stam builds with vMA weapons are topping at around 45k right now, its not a 20k difference without. That being said 25k per dd is the minimum needed and as always that can flux a bit depending on the team. take for instance a healer able to use jesusbeam efficiently and that will lower each dps requirement. There are many ways to bend this with the right coordination.

DK stam builds with vMA weapons are topping at 45k. Other classes do not. As a NB without vMA weapons with a perfect group and high uptime I can manage 18k. Maybe 20k if the stars align. With an average group its more like 16k. So I guess the dungeons arent for me then.

Ep1kMalware

DocFrost72 wrote: »

I've been saying it for a while now, DPS is out of control. If all that matters is stacking WD, crit, and crit modifier and DPSing past mechanics, then we need to reel it in. Hard cap isn't the -Best- way (would prefer return of softcaps), but dang it I'll give the idea a +1 OP.

Let's go back to the days of resource management, varied builds, and long, fun fights over this "Lazer beam 100k damage output in a party of four" nonsense we're dealing with now.

dps isn't out of control, there used to be a day when you'd be called an idiot for running in groups with 15k health, as adds would 1 shot you/take much longer to kill. DPS hasn't gotten out of control the game has just gotten rediculously easier. they keep turning those 20k hits from adds down to like 6k and mass reducing hp on everything. Fights are no longer fun because people no longer interrupt channels and instead wait until aoes are on them rather than wait foe them to be telled and move. these same people refuse to use comms with their group amd demand everything be easier.

This isn't rocket science, most fights are pillowfights in pve now. It's not the min-maxer's fault adds in nso have ~2million health and only do 500 damage, that supports low health high damage playstyle, when they did it the other way around people like the op freaked *** and called for nerfs.

I'm all up for using caps to help balance out pvp, but keep your crap ideas away from pve. How can anyone so selfishly suggest it? I get it, you've clearlt never ran vet trials (thank god) but yoj can't ask for generalized nerfs.

generalizing buffs/nerfs are what keeps screwing this game up. nerf pvp so people stop getting 1 shotted to dumb *** (or t=start banning people who cry because they can't get e,porer by themselves in heavy armour, 8k ,ax stamina, spamming snipe)

if you want long fights with lots of mecha ics then go trials, because that's what it's all about. Then you'll see why your mediocre dps gets you kicked from group when you can't kill ,anticora before enrage.

dps isn't sucking, players are sucking.