Is templar the only good healer?

exeeter702

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

Well I'm gonna say your wrong and you don't feel like reading and are saying the same thing.

The Templars abilities are the best compared to the other classes abilities in regards to healing.

Some one stated Matriarch's heal is strong is then Templars BoL. Ok good argument, but counter argument is the pet can be killed and doesn't heal any more. Can't kill the BoL its not a pet, but you can kill the Matriach. On top of which BoL is healing multiple people which, afaik the Matriach is healing 1 person at a time.

The Sorcs tools stay crappy regardless of the Restro Staff. The Staff just allows them to heal with different tools. Doesn't change the classes abilities those stay crappy.

The Templar has all the tools needed to be a fully competent healer with or without a Restro Staff. This makes them the best healer. But like said as always regardless all classes can heal due to Restro staff, Templar just has the best options.

im almost insulted at how uneducated you are on this subject.

exeeter702

nordsavage wrote: »

Templar is a must for trials as no other class can really keep up with the demands and skill needs (Nova, BoL, Major Mending, etc.) in twelve man runs.

utterly and completely false.

Oakmontowls_ESO

In my experiences in healing as a NB, if the group is experienced and coordinated then a NB is a superior healer to a templar simply because they are able deal more dps while still keeping everyone's hp topped off with HoTs. However, if you are dealing with inexperienced people or pugs a templar will be better because they are able to heal large amounts of health really quickly when the group doesn't know the mechanics or is just simply standing in stupid. Templars are also better when the dps and tank require the healer to sustain their resources and as most people know, templars are the only class that can restore stamina with out a master's resto staff. This perspective is solely from 4 man content as trials and pvp are much different. Also as a NB the combination of mutagen and funnel health allows me to have a near 100% up time on spc.

Autolycus

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

CreepyPahuska wrote: »

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

You know its funny the topic is best healing class. Then Restro staff is added to say how good the Sorc is at healing.

Compare class abilities alone without any Restro staff abilities. Templar wins hand down best healer.

Restro staff makes everybody a healer regardless. Nightblade has decent healing abilities but without a Restro staff just pales in comparison.

If you wanna play dumb, let's play dumb.
The topic is about who's the best healing class. Not about which class has the best class-specific skills dedicated to healing. That makes no sense at all. Why would you compare classes without their tool ? You don't go in a dungeon with your bare hands. Healing tools are healing tools. Wether they are specific to a class or not doesn't change anything.
Now please stop being ridiculous. As you said, resto staff makes everybody a healer regardless, so every class can be the best healing class, end of the story.

Yes the best healing class is the one with the best tools for the job at hand which is their class-specific abilities.

So take a Templar and give him a 2hander and the role of healer versus that of a Sorc with a 2hander. Templar wins hands down. No class can begin to compare to the Templar as a healer.


The restro staff comes into play. Then everybody can heal. But doesn't the Templar still have the best options in the tool box versus the other classes? Sure the other classes can heal but how can you compare then when the Restro staff is doing all the work and not the class? Short answer take the Restro staff out and compare.

One cannot compare healers without the use of a resto staff. There are number of reasons why, and in addition to this concept is the simple truth that Templar class skills are only situationally better than the kits available to other classes. Allow me to elaborate:

Take Shards, for example. This is the #1 argument that everyone always makes in favor of Templars being the "best" healers. Did you know that the Master's Restoration staff makes Shards look like child's play? It's 400 stamina back to everyone in the area, on every first tick of Healing Springs, and requires zero effort from anyone else in the group to gain the benefit, as opposed to a single person having to stop their rotation to synergize. Furthermore, Springs is without a doubt the most efficient and effective method of both healing and supplying supplementary buffs to your group (i.e. SPC, Gossamer, etc.).

Couple this with the definition of today's healers in ESO - which is far more than simply healing - and we start to see just how irrelevant this "one best" argument becomes. Every class has a burst heal, which we all know. But break this down further: In which scenarios do each of the classes shine?

Over the past several months, healers have gradually grown more into a support role vs. a healer role. What does a Templar have to offer, in terms of support, that no other class can do? Shards is not a valid argument. What else is there?

I would be genuinely surprised if any healer tried to participate in a competitive progression run of something like vSO or vMoL without providing SPC, Combat Prayer, Aggressive Horn, perhaps even Major Sorcery and Brutality (if they can), Ele Drain, Siphon Spirit... I may or may not be forgetting a couple, but I think this illustrates the point. These are the most important things for healers to be doing today, besides keeping everyone alive. None of these requires a Templar healer, and in fact, most of them can be done more effectively with Resto Staff abilities, or with skills available to other classes specifically. Every class has a burst heal. Most healers are running Aggressive Horn now, and there is little need for Novas in most of today's content. Purifying Ritual is probably the strongest ability Templars have at their disposal, and it accomplishes virtually the same thing as Healing Springs, plus Major Mending (which is a trivial argument, since Mending is easily accessible to every class).

What we should be doing here is not debating who is the "one true healer" and start analyzing the specific scenarios in which each of them shines. Take, for example, a Sorc healer using SPC, Elegant, and Kena - clutch heals when necessary, steady buffs for the group, and strong damage potential (with little effort, mind you). Or DK healers, who have the ability to buff healing output and shield allies simultaneously, which frees up time to chain and CC adds, or provide Igneous Weapons. Or NB healers, arguably the strongest heal/dps hybrid, completely self-reliant for buffs, and an ability to generate Aggressive Horns faster than any other class.

Psyonico

kylewwefan wrote: »

Resto staff on my StamBlade....heals are pitiful. I could run around spamming vigor next to everyone. I like Templar, It's hard to beat BoL.

A stamplar will be just as useless at healing as a StamBlade. You'll have extra stamina, but that's about it

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Define: Healer

If your goal is to keep a group alive, anyone with a resto staff can do that just fine. If you think that makes you a good healer, well, you are wildly mistaken. Templars are the best healers because they can effectively provide all resources to their group, not just health. That is the mark of a good healer. Stam builds are everwhere since DB. A healer without shards or repentance is going to be pretty lousy in the current meta.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Autolycus wrote: »

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

CreepyPahuska wrote: »

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

You know its funny the topic is best healing class. Then Restro staff is added to say how good the Sorc is at healing.

Compare class abilities alone without any Restro staff abilities. Templar wins hand down best healer.

Restro staff makes everybody a healer regardless. Nightblade has decent healing abilities but without a Restro staff just pales in comparison.

If you wanna play dumb, let's play dumb.
The topic is about who's the best healing class. Not about which class has the best class-specific skills dedicated to healing. That makes no sense at all. Why would you compare classes without their tool ? You don't go in a dungeon with your bare hands. Healing tools are healing tools. Wether they are specific to a class or not doesn't change anything.
Now please stop being ridiculous. As you said, resto staff makes everybody a healer regardless, so every class can be the best healing class, end of the story.

Yes the best healing class is the one with the best tools for the job at hand which is their class-specific abilities.

So take a Templar and give him a 2hander and the role of healer versus that of a Sorc with a 2hander. Templar wins hands down. No class can begin to compare to the Templar as a healer.


The restro staff comes into play. Then everybody can heal. But doesn't the Templar still have the best options in the tool box versus the other classes? Sure the other classes can heal but how can you compare then when the Restro staff is doing all the work and not the class? Short answer take the Restro staff out and compare.

One cannot compare healers without the use of a resto staff. There are number of reasons why, and in addition to this concept is the simple truth that Templar class skills are only situationally better than the kits available to other classes. Allow me to elaborate:

Take Shards, for example. This is the #1 argument that everyone always makes in favor of Templars being the "best" healers. Did you know that the Master's Restoration staff makes Shards look like child's play? It's 400 stamina back to everyone in the area, on every first tick of Healing Springs, and requires zero effort from anyone else in the group to gain the benefit, as opposed to a single person having to stop their rotation to synergize. Furthermore, Springs is without a doubt the most efficient and effective method of both healing and supplying supplementary buffs to your group (i.e. SPC, Gossamer, etc.)

Again, this is only around 250 and only to 6 people, just like repentance, it is not even compareable.

Even at 160- see this http://esoitem.uesp.net/item-55975-66-5.png

And healing springs is overkill for anything but trials and a few select bosses in vet dungeons for a non temp healer, I am thinking specifically the engine guardian green poison phase, with a temp you can just spam breath through it and not have the team stack but with a different class, I am thinking sorc here as that is the only other class I have healed with, you need the team to stack or you do not have the heals to heal through the poison, the pet does too fast in this case to be useful.

datgladiatah

You know what's most frustrating about people acting like the Templar is the best healer is, with their tools in mind, they provide barely any damage, no shields, and TONS of healing with minimal magicka resource regen and a decent amount of stamina in a fight. That's not only incredibly specific to any patch outside of the recent stam meta, it also does very little to prevent team death and wipes. You CANNOT give anyone resolve/ward/vitality buffs, you CANNOT really provide debuffs (and you'd never take power of the light over the healing morph), and most of all your class abilities provide no shields to the team. Anyone can slot Barrier, and DKs are special in that they give shields, rocks, damage buffs, etc. While NBs have damage and damage debuffs. Sorcerers have a ton of options and a ton more resources with or without itemization. No, Templars aren't bad, they just overheal. That's all they can do. The minute a trial boss does a giant instant kill aoe and you don't have barrier or consuming darkness or Nova's long ass cooldown makes it unavailable, they're all dead. Your ass loads of heals statistically provides nothing in the most challenging situations, with stupid players. Matriarch has better oh ***, DKs and NBs are better at mitigation. Being a good healer that keeps Stam DPSs fighting is a particularly good healing gimmick, not the best possible supportive or healing role you can provide.

Also, considering that everynoe has Major Mending, and NBs in particular are designed to mix Heavy's into their rotation because they have high duration HoT abilities, I really don't think Purify is like, the end all be all of healing. Most boss fights, when they last too long, get players killed regardless. DPS and providing DPS and mitigation to your team is just objectively better.

Autolycus

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

CreepyPahuska wrote: »

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

You know its funny the topic is best healing class. Then Restro staff is added to say how good the Sorc is at healing.

Compare class abilities alone without any Restro staff abilities. Templar wins hand down best healer.

Restro staff makes everybody a healer regardless. Nightblade has decent healing abilities but without a Restro staff just pales in comparison.

If you wanna play dumb, let's play dumb.
The topic is about who's the best healing class. Not about which class has the best class-specific skills dedicated to healing. That makes no sense at all. Why would you compare classes without their tool ? You don't go in a dungeon with your bare hands. Healing tools are healing tools. Wether they are specific to a class or not doesn't change anything.
Now please stop being ridiculous. As you said, resto staff makes everybody a healer regardless, so every class can be the best healing class, end of the story.

Yes the best healing class is the one with the best tools for the job at hand which is their class-specific abilities.

So take a Templar and give him a 2hander and the role of healer versus that of a Sorc with a 2hander. Templar wins hands down. No class can begin to compare to the Templar as a healer.


The restro staff comes into play. Then everybody can heal. But doesn't the Templar still have the best options in the tool box versus the other classes? Sure the other classes can heal but how can you compare then when the Restro staff is doing all the work and not the class? Short answer take the Restro staff out and compare.

One cannot compare healers without the use of a resto staff. There are number of reasons why, and in addition to this concept is the simple truth that Templar class skills are only situationally better than the kits available to other classes. Allow me to elaborate:

Take Shards, for example. This is the #1 argument that everyone always makes in favor of Templars being the "best" healers. Did you know that the Master's Restoration staff makes Shards look like child's play? It's 400 stamina back to everyone in the area, on every first tick of Healing Springs, and requires zero effort from anyone else in the group to gain the benefit, as opposed to a single person having to stop their rotation to synergize. Furthermore, Springs is without a doubt the most efficient and effective method of both healing and supplying supplementary buffs to your group (i.e. SPC, Gossamer, etc.)

Again, this is only around 250 and only to 6 people, just like repentance, it is not even compareable.

Even at 160- see this http://esoitem.uesp.net/item-55975-66-5.png

And healing springs is overkill for anything but trials and a few select bosses in vet dungeons for a non temp healer, I am thinking specifically the engine guardian green poison phase, with a temp you can just spam breath through it and not have the team stack but with a different class, I am thinking sorc here as that is the only other class I have healed with, you need the team to stack or you do not have the heals to heal through the poison, the pet does too fast in this case to be useful.

I did have the tooltip wrong; it's actually 295 per first tick, and with both healers running one on their off-bar, the difference between what you can provide to your stamina dps and tanks is substantially greater than that of what a single shards can accomplish. You're looking at almost 600 stamina per second (depending on how fast you want or need to spam springs) to effectively the entire raid; it's just more efficient. Throw Shards in addition if necessary, but when you compare the two side-by-side you see just how effective Springs is.

Let's assume your tank has 25k stamina, which I consider to be quite liberal, since it's completely feasible to tank vet trials with <20k (though this will vary with class and build). Synergizing with shards gives you back 6k, which we can do roughly every 15-20s (let's use 15s to be more liberal in favor of Shards). In 15s, one healer with an infused Master's Resto can restore 4.5k to up to 6 people per second, while simultaneously providing SPC.

If we instead assume that a stam dps takes the Shards synergy, which would restore something around (.25*35k) or ~9k in total, we see that the benefit of a single Shard can exceed the benefit of a Master's Resto for a single target. In this case, the total stamina restored in this 15s window is 9k, compared to the (4.5k * 6 targets) or 27k total stamina restored with a Masters Resto. Thus, we can conclude that Shards is best used situationally, and for all else the Master's Resto staff is more efficient and more utilitarian.

Healing Springs is "overkill" ... but what isn't? The level of overhealing in ESO is astounding, for any class, in any content. This is so true that the BiS healer gear in ESO for the last several months has been SPC, which is based upon healing players who are already at full health. Are you saying that one should ignore Springs because it's too effective?

Engine Guardian in vDC is a poor example of a healing-intensive fight. I have on numerous occasions healed it exclusively with Mutagen; it's not a complicated or challenging fight, except perhaps in the case of new players, or those with lower-end gear. I have also completed this on numerous occasions with no healer at all. And even in such a fight, grouping up is the practical and logical strategy, in which case Healing Springs is the more efficient option, and again gives all of the buffs and recovery as previously mentioned. Worst-case scenario, someone splits from the group and a simple Healing Ward resolves any concern.

Certain class buffs work well in this fight, like Purifying Ritual, Refreshing Path, and Igneous Shield, but the same can be said for Combat Prayer, which any good healer will be running for the sake of added protections and increased damage for their group. This brings me back to my initial point, which is that it ultimately doesn't matter which class you heal with. Time is better spent finding ways to provide as many buffs as possible to the group. The act of healing itself has become little more than the "busy work" of the role, with buffs being the real "value added" for the group.

Pallio

Is a 5.0 Mustang the only car that can go 100 mph? No, but, it sure does it very well, feels natural at it and sounds amazing while doing it.

But, if you want to feel like a special snowflake, I am sure a Toyota Prius can get up to 100 mph eventually too, downhill maybe, but, it could do it too.

Acsvf

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

CreepyPahuska wrote: »

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

You know its funny the topic is best healing class. Then Restro staff is added to say how good the Sorc is at healing.

Compare class abilities alone without any Restro staff abilities. Templar wins hand down best healer.

Restro staff makes everybody a healer regardless. Nightblade has decent healing abilities but without a Restro staff just pales in comparison.

If you wanna play dumb, let's play dumb.
The topic is about who's the best healing class. Not about which class has the best class-specific skills dedicated to healing. That makes no sense at all. Why would you compare classes without their tool ? You don't go in a dungeon with your bare hands. Healing tools are healing tools. Wether they are specific to a class or not doesn't change anything.
Now please stop being ridiculous. As you said, resto staff makes everybody a healer regardless, so every class can be the best healing class, end of the story.

Yes the best healing class is the one with the best tools for the job at hand which is their class-specific abilities.

So take a Templar and give him a 2hander and the role of healer versus that of a Sorc with a 2hander. Templar wins hands down. No class can begin to compare to the Templar as a healer.


The restro staff comes into play. Then everybody can heal. But doesn't the Templar still have the best options in the tool box versus the other classes? Sure the other classes can heal but how can you compare then when the Restro staff is doing all the work and not the class? Short answer take the Restro staff out and compare.

Except people don't tend to use 2 handers as a first choice for a healer. A comparison without factoring weapons is worthless in a conversation about comparative usefulness of classes given that players tend to use weapons.

If we applied your logic, then sorcerers would be utterly useless for a dps role in PVE.

Mush55

Acsvf wrote: »

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

CreepyPahuska wrote: »

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

You know its funny the topic is best healing class. Then Restro staff is added to say how good the Sorc is at healing.

Compare class abilities alone without any Restro staff abilities. Templar wins hand down best healer.

Restro staff makes everybody a healer regardless. Nightblade has decent healing abilities but without a Restro staff just pales in comparison.

If you wanna play dumb, let's play dumb.
The topic is about who's the best healing class. Not about which class has the best class-specific skills dedicated to healing. That makes no sense at all. Why would you compare classes without their tool ? You don't go in a dungeon with your bare hands. Healing tools are healing tools. Wether they are specific to a class or not doesn't change anything.
Now please stop being ridiculous. As you said, resto staff makes everybody a healer regardless, so every class can be the best healing class, end of the story.

Yes the best healing class is the one with the best tools for the job at hand which is their class-specific abilities.

So take a Templar and give him a 2hander and the role of healer versus that of a Sorc with a 2hander. Templar wins hands down. No class can begin to compare to the Templar as a healer.


The restro staff comes into play. Then everybody can heal. But doesn't the Templar still have the best options in the tool box versus the other classes? Sure the other classes can heal but how can you compare then when the Restro staff is doing all the work and not the class? Short answer take the Restro staff out and compare.

Except people don't tend to use 2 handers as a first choice for a healer. A comparison without factoring weapons is worthless in a conversation about comparative usefulness of classes given that players tend to use weapons.

If we applied your logic, then sorcerers would be utterly useless for a dps role in PVE.

They aren't exactly top of the dps tree are they ?

exeeter702

Pallio wrote: »

Is a 5.0 Mustang the only car that can go 100 mph? No, but, it sure does it very well, feels natural at it and sounds amazing while doing it.

But, if you want to feel like a special snowflake, I am sure a Toyota Prius can get up to 100 mph eventually too, downhill maybe, but, it could do it too.

Just to be clear, you are subscribing to the belief that healing as anything other than a templar falls under special snowflake mentality?

Acsvf

Mush55 wrote: »

They aren't exactly top of the dps tree are they ?

I'm more so referring to a whole new level of weak.

BurningLance

yeah Templars are the best healers and very good at support. (specially mag templars)

now for race atm Bretons and High elfs makes the best healers due to magicka based passives but once the Shadow of the Hist update comes Argonians will be a very good race for healers due to their passive that will boost healing done instead of received. (maybe the best)

Psyonico

Pallio wrote: »

Is a 5.0 Mustang the only car that can go 100 mph? No, but, it sure does it very well, feels natural at it and sounds amazing while doing it.

But, if you want to feel like a special snowflake, I am sure a Toyota Prius can get up to 100 mph eventually too, downhill maybe, but, it could do it too.

I would liken my NB healer more to a z06 corvette than a Prius. And I'd much rather take a z06 over a mustang

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Autolycus wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

CreepyPahuska wrote: »

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

You know its funny the topic is best healing class. Then Restro staff is added to say how good the Sorc is at healing.

Compare class abilities alone without any Restro staff abilities. Templar wins hand down best healer.

Restro staff makes everybody a healer regardless. Nightblade has decent healing abilities but without a Restro staff just pales in comparison.

If you wanna play dumb, let's play dumb.
The topic is about who's the best healing class. Not about which class has the best class-specific skills dedicated to healing. That makes no sense at all. Why would you compare classes without their tool ? You don't go in a dungeon with your bare hands. Healing tools are healing tools. Wether they are specific to a class or not doesn't change anything.
Now please stop being ridiculous. As you said, resto staff makes everybody a healer regardless, so every class can be the best healing class, end of the story.

Yes the best healing class is the one with the best tools for the job at hand which is their class-specific abilities.

So take a Templar and give him a 2hander and the role of healer versus that of a Sorc with a 2hander. Templar wins hands down. No class can begin to compare to the Templar as a healer.


The restro staff comes into play. Then everybody can heal. But doesn't the Templar still have the best options in the tool box versus the other classes? Sure the other classes can heal but how can you compare then when the Restro staff is doing all the work and not the class? Short answer take the Restro staff out and compare.

One cannot compare healers without the use of a resto staff. There are number of reasons why, and in addition to this concept is the simple truth that Templar class skills are only situationally better than the kits available to other classes. Allow me to elaborate:

Take Shards, for example. This is the #1 argument that everyone always makes in favor of Templars being the "best" healers. Did you know that the Master's Restoration staff makes Shards look like child's play? It's 400 stamina back to everyone in the area, on every first tick of Healing Springs, and requires zero effort from anyone else in the group to gain the benefit, as opposed to a single person having to stop their rotation to synergize. Furthermore, Springs is without a doubt the most efficient and effective method of both healing and supplying supplementary buffs to your group (i.e. SPC, Gossamer, etc.)

Again, this is only around 250 and only to 6 people, just like repentance, it is not even compareable.

Even at 160- see this http://esoitem.uesp.net/item-55975-66-5.png

And healing springs is overkill for anything but trials and a few select bosses in vet dungeons for a non temp healer, I am thinking specifically the engine guardian green poison phase, with a temp you can just spam breath through it and not have the team stack but with a different class, I am thinking sorc here as that is the only other class I have healed with, you need the team to stack or you do not have the heals to heal through the poison, the pet does too fast in this case to be useful.

I did have the tooltip wrong; it's actually 295 per first tick, and with both healers running one on their off-bar, the difference between what you can provide to your stamina dps and tanks is substantially greater than that of what a single shards can accomplish. You're looking at almost 600 stamina per second (depending on how fast you want or need to spam springs) to effectively the entire raid; it's just more efficient. Throw Shards in addition if necessary, but when you compare the two side-by-side you see just how effective Springs is.

Let's assume your tank has 25k stamina, which I consider to be quite liberal, since it's completely feasible to tank vet trials with <20k (though this will vary with class and build). Synergizing with shards gives you back 6k, which we can do roughly every 15-20s (let's use 15s to be more liberal in favor of Shards). In 15s, one healer with an infused Master's Resto can restore 4.5k to up to 6 people per second, while simultaneously providing SPC.

If we instead assume that a stam dps takes the Shards synergy, which would restore something around (.25*35k) or ~9k in total, we see that the benefit of a single Shard can exceed the benefit of a Master's Resto for a single target. In this case, the total stamina restored in this 15s window is 9k, compared to the (4.5k * 6 targets) or 27k total stamina restored with a Masters Resto. Thus, we can conclude that Shards is best used situationally, and for all else the Master's Resto staff is more efficient and more utilitarian.

Healing Springs is "overkill" ... but what isn't? The level of overhealing in ESO is astounding, for any class, in any content. This is so true that the BiS healer gear in ESO for the last several months has been SPC, which is based upon healing players who are already at full health. Are you saying that one should ignore Springs because it's too effective?

Engine Guardian in vDC is a poor example of a healing-intensive fight. I have on numerous occasions healed it exclusively with Mutagen; it's not a complicated or challenging fight, except perhaps in the case of new players, or those with lower-end gear. I have also completed this on numerous occasions with no healer at all. And even in such a fight, grouping up is the practical and logical strategy, in which case Healing Springs is the more efficient option, and again gives all of the buffs and recovery as previously mentioned. Worst-case scenario, someone splits from the group and a simple Healing Ward resolves any concern.

Certain class buffs work well in this fight, like Purifying Ritual, Refreshing Path, and Igneous Shield, but the same can be said for Combat Prayer, which any good healer will be running for the sake of added protections and increased damage for their group. This brings me back to my initial point, which is that it ultimately doesn't matter which class you heal with. Time is better spent finding ways to provide as many buffs as possible to the group. The act of healing itself has become little more than the "busy work" of the role, with buffs being the real "value added" for the group.

okay first off, i am going to say i want the master resto, i am going to be running the vDSA as much as i can when it gets leveled.

second, i would like to point out i agree with the fact that all classes can heal effectively in this game. there is no real difference if the player that is healing is good with the the class that they are healing on.

could i get a pic of the 300 stam back please? not that i dont believe you it is just i ran the vDSA more then 50+ times and never actually got one. and that is another thing, you are acting like every person in the game has access to the staff, when the reality is that you had to get really lucky in the DSA when it was vr14, now that you will be able to trade, it up the chances by 4x.

lastly, the fact is, tamplar have access to the ONLY in class way to give stam back. out of the 3 way to do that in the game. and i was talking about repentance, 3.5k per body, i realize that shards are only good for dps and when there is no bodys around.

I really enjoy seeing a non temp healer, it shows that the game is flexible enough that you can play how you want.

CreepyPahuska

Seriously, I don't understand why everybody is so crazy about that stamina support thing. Let's put it this way :

If you are a tank or a DPS, and you rely entirely on the stamina support skills from a templar healer to be able to do your job effectively. You're doing it wrong.
If you focus on damages without considering stamina management. You're doing it wrong.
If you blame your healer for not supporting the group in the way you'd like him/her to, first you're an idiot, and second, you need to learn to adapt.
(basically, what I'm trying to say is that it's a l2p issue, but some people might feel offended)

And I'm a tank with 13k stam and 600 recovery, so I don't want to sound pretentious, but I think I know a few things about stamina management. I actually evaluate my mastery of a dungeon/raid/whatever based on how well I manage my ressources. (for raids, you'll always have a templar in your group, wether he is a DD or a healer doesn't f***ing matter).

Now, if you're goal is to support your group by providing them stamina, sure the easiest option is to go templar, cause the master restoration staff requires some effort to acquire (wich is a lot to ask for the average casual players who invaded TESO and pulled the game difficulty down to the ground), but support is different than healing, and there is no best way to support your group. Whatever you choose, your group will (has to) adapt.

Mush55

CreepyPahuska wrote: »

Seriously, I don't understand why everybody is so crazy about that stamina support thing. Let's put it this way :

If you are a tank or a DPS, and you rely entirely on the stamina support skills from a templar healer to be able to do your job effectively. You're doing it wrong.
If you focus on damages without considering stamina management. You're doing it wrong.
If you blame your healer for not supporting the group in the way you'd like him/her to, first you're an idiot, and second, you need to learn to adapt.
(basically, what I'm trying to say is that it's a l2p issue, but some people might feel offended)

And I'm a tank with 13k stam and 600 recovery, so I don't want to sound pretentious, but I think I know a few things about stamina management. I actually evaluate my mastery of a dungeon/raid/whatever based on how well I manage my ressources. (for raids, you'll always have a templar in your group, wether he is a DD or a healer doesn't f***ing matter).

Now, if you're goal is to support your group by providing them stamina, sure the easiest option is to go templar, cause the master restoration staff requires some effort to acquire (wich is a lot to ask for the average casual players who invaded TESO and pulled the game difficulty down to the ground), but support is different than healing, and there is no best way to support your group. Whatever you choose, your group will (has to) adapt.

Try telling that to most pug grps................

CreepyPahuska

Try telling what ? L2p ?
Just because some people don't want to improve, doesn't mean that you must adapt to their medriocrity.

Mush55

CreepyPahuska wrote: »

Try telling what ? L2p ?
Just because some people don't want to improve, doesn't mean that you must adapt to their medriocrity.

Yes
How many times have you seen bow using heavy armoured magic sorcs ? or heavy wearing dps using wrecking blow spam ?

The list goes on and I blame Zos play as you want because it is a regular appearance if you use dungeon finder for when the guild is quiet.

Now throw don't use dng finder out, but people use it and encounter the above..

Note not everyone uses these forums or looks up what build or items to use...........

Shaiba

Mush55 wrote: »

Yes
How many times have you seen bow using heavy armoured magic sorcs ? or heavy wearing dps using wrecking blow spam ?
Now throw don't use dng finder out, but people use it and encounter the above..
Note not everyone uses these forums or looks up what build or items to use...........

Everytime we play with bad PuG, we are telling them what mistakes they're doing, how to become better, ect... Sadly, they don't care... Some of them listen, but the vast majority doesn't. If they want to stay bad, you/we can't do anything.

People that don't search on forum/internet/by talking to other people ingame are those who don't want to improve. People who want to be better, to be good at healing/tanking/dpsing do some research about it.

And yeah he is right (@CreepyPahuska) "Just because some people don't want to improve, doesn't mean that you must adapt to their medriocrity."

exeeter702

Mush55 wrote: »

CreepyPahuska wrote: »

Try telling what ? L2p ?
Just because some people don't want to improve, doesn't mean that you must adapt to their medriocrity.

Yes
How many times have you seen bow using heavy armoured magic sorcs ? or heavy wearing dps using wrecking blow spam ?

The list goes on and I blame Zos play as you want because it is a regular appearance if you use dungeon finder for when the guild is quiet.

Now throw don't use dng finder out, but people use it and encounter the above..

Note not everyone uses these forums or looks up what build or items to use...........

I'm not sure what side of the discussion you are on, but having the ability to cover up holes in other players' game is not a criteria for being a good healin class.

Mush55

exeeter702 wrote: »

Mush55 wrote: »

CreepyPahuska wrote: »

Try telling what ? L2p ?
Just because some people don't want to improve, doesn't mean that you must adapt to their medriocrity.

Yes
How many times have you seen bow using heavy armoured magic sorcs ? or heavy wearing dps using wrecking blow spam ?

The list goes on and I blame Zos play as you want because it is a regular appearance if you use dungeon finder for when the guild is quiet.

Now throw don't use dng finder out, but people use it and encounter the above..

Note not everyone uses these forums or looks up what build or items to use...........

I'm not sure what side of the discussion you are on, but having the ability to cover up holes in other players' game is not a criteria for being a good healin class.

I'm in a good guild and only run healer when I have to (i'm dps and good at it ) but when I roll healer templar is the best to cover up holes as you put it in most pug grps .

So as Ive said templar is the best healer because most not all pugs are bad , A s said I blame Zos for this because if you want to progress you can not play as you want you need to be real and realise that a certain spec needs certain things..

exeeter702

Mush55 wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Mush55 wrote: »

CreepyPahuska wrote: »

Try telling what ? L2p ?
Just because some people don't want to improve, doesn't mean that you must adapt to their medriocrity.

Yes
How many times have you seen bow using heavy armoured magic sorcs ? or heavy wearing dps using wrecking blow spam ?

The list goes on and I blame Zos play as you want because it is a regular appearance if you use dungeon finder for when the guild is quiet.

Now throw don't use dng finder out, but people use it and encounter the above..

Note not everyone uses these forums or looks up what build or items to use...........

I'm not sure what side of the discussion you are on, but having the ability to cover up holes in other players' game is not a criteria for being a good healin class.

I'm in a good guild and only run healer when I have to (i'm dps and good at it ) but when I roll healer templar is the best to cover up holes as you put it in most pug grps .

So as Ive said templar is the best healer because most not all pugs are bad , A s said I blame Zos for this because if you want to progress you can not play as you want you need to be real and realise that a certain spec needs certain things..

That's the problem.... you are confusing 2 seperate things here.

You don't balance around the lowest common denominator. You set the bar and provide the tools for players to overcome the challenge. Your argument serves no purpose here and only leads to a rabbit hole of hypotheticals.

I'll humor you for a second. The entire point here was that for content that "matters" there are players that say templar is the only real healer in the game equipped to handle said challenge (I disagree with this entriely). Combat and class design is tuned around the hardest challenges In the game and then it simply influences all things below it ie "casual content".

People are not pugging veteran trials and one has to assume based on your logic that only players that are in good guilds, those that come fully prepared and take on the hardest content in the game, those thst learn the nuances of builds and rotations etc etc, are participating in it. At that point there are no holes thst need to be patched, and if any do arise, said players are usually removed and replaced or are taught and improve.

But your argument trickled down into veteran dungeons, based on your comment of what kind of players you or I would run into via the dungeon finder, examples like bow dw templar healers, or 2h resto staff nb tanks. Pugs in this instance absolutely have holes that need to be patched, yet this content is largely a face roll endeavor, a non cp battle leveled nb or dk healer for example that is properly geared in some basic crafted sets can easily contribute dps or the ability to tank some damage in the place of a dead stamina dps or tank (because magicka dps and magicka tanks do not exist of course../s).

I would argue doing the damage in place of a dead dps while healing is equally effective if not more than a templar continuing to let a poor player avoid being resource starved in a 4 man dungeon that is largely untaxing on most players

And this is why your point is largely irrelevant, as everything I've just said pertains very little to the actual discussion regarding the balance of all healers and why a templar may or may not be the best. The rabbit goes much deeper and serves very little purpose.

If you want to make the argument that a templar affords stam dps builds the option of lessening their stam regen in favor of more end damage or mitigation when syncing up with a static raiding group that does so regularly, thst is a wholly justified point that I am willing to acknowledge. But don't use a class' unique tool and how it helps cushion a bad players gameplay as a sticking point when discussing class balance please.

cbaudersub17_ESO

I wonder if this thread would be better titled for those spewing the ‘Templars best healers’ mantra, “Is templar the only good HEAL-BOT [for users of stamina scaling weapons]?”

Anecdote: I was running my sorc healer through the random daily dungeon the other day. After I got pulled in and before the social ‘hiya’ group, the leader posted in group that it would be alright for me to do damage too. I recall typing ‘okay’ while thinking that this player really has no idea. My internal bigotry leads me to conclude that this persons thinking has been narrowed by games which will not be named.

Autolycus

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

CreepyPahuska wrote: »

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

You know its funny the topic is best healing class. Then Restro staff is added to say how good the Sorc is at healing.

Compare class abilities alone without any Restro staff abilities. Templar wins hand down best healer.

Restro staff makes everybody a healer regardless. Nightblade has decent healing abilities but without a Restro staff just pales in comparison.

If you wanna play dumb, let's play dumb.
The topic is about who's the best healing class. Not about which class has the best class-specific skills dedicated to healing. That makes no sense at all. Why would you compare classes without their tool ? You don't go in a dungeon with your bare hands. Healing tools are healing tools. Wether they are specific to a class or not doesn't change anything.
Now please stop being ridiculous. As you said, resto staff makes everybody a healer regardless, so every class can be the best healing class, end of the story.

Yes the best healing class is the one with the best tools for the job at hand which is their class-specific abilities.

So take a Templar and give him a 2hander and the role of healer versus that of a Sorc with a 2hander. Templar wins hands down. No class can begin to compare to the Templar as a healer.


The restro staff comes into play. Then everybody can heal. But doesn't the Templar still have the best options in the tool box versus the other classes? Sure the other classes can heal but how can you compare then when the Restro staff is doing all the work and not the class? Short answer take the Restro staff out and compare.

One cannot compare healers without the use of a resto staff. There are number of reasons why, and in addition to this concept is the simple truth that Templar class skills are only situationally better than the kits available to other classes. Allow me to elaborate:

Take Shards, for example. This is the #1 argument that everyone always makes in favor of Templars being the "best" healers. Did you know that the Master's Restoration staff makes Shards look like child's play? It's 400 stamina back to everyone in the area, on every first tick of Healing Springs, and requires zero effort from anyone else in the group to gain the benefit, as opposed to a single person having to stop their rotation to synergize. Furthermore, Springs is without a doubt the most efficient and effective method of both healing and supplying supplementary buffs to your group (i.e. SPC, Gossamer, etc.)

Again, this is only around 250 and only to 6 people, just like repentance, it is not even compareable.

Even at 160- see this http://esoitem.uesp.net/item-55975-66-5.png

And healing springs is overkill for anything but trials and a few select bosses in vet dungeons for a non temp healer, I am thinking specifically the engine guardian green poison phase, with a temp you can just spam breath through it and not have the team stack but with a different class, I am thinking sorc here as that is the only other class I have healed with, you need the team to stack or you do not have the heals to heal through the poison, the pet does too fast in this case to be useful.

I did have the tooltip wrong; it's actually 295 per first tick, and with both healers running one on their off-bar, the difference between what you can provide to your stamina dps and tanks is substantially greater than that of what a single shards can accomplish. You're looking at almost 600 stamina per second (depending on how fast you want or need to spam springs) to effectively the entire raid; it's just more efficient. Throw Shards in addition if necessary, but when you compare the two side-by-side you see just how effective Springs is.

Let's assume your tank has 25k stamina, which I consider to be quite liberal, since it's completely feasible to tank vet trials with <20k (though this will vary with class and build). Synergizing with shards gives you back 6k, which we can do roughly every 15-20s (let's use 15s to be more liberal in favor of Shards). In 15s, one healer with an infused Master's Resto can restore 4.5k to up to 6 people per second, while simultaneously providing SPC.

If we instead assume that a stam dps takes the Shards synergy, which would restore something around (.25*35k) or ~9k in total, we see that the benefit of a single Shard can exceed the benefit of a Master's Resto for a single target. In this case, the total stamina restored in this 15s window is 9k, compared to the (4.5k * 6 targets) or 27k total stamina restored with a Masters Resto. Thus, we can conclude that Shards is best used situationally, and for all else the Master's Resto staff is more efficient and more utilitarian.

Healing Springs is "overkill" ... but what isn't? The level of overhealing in ESO is astounding, for any class, in any content. This is so true that the BiS healer gear in ESO for the last several months has been SPC, which is based upon healing players who are already at full health. Are you saying that one should ignore Springs because it's too effective?

Engine Guardian in vDC is a poor example of a healing-intensive fight. I have on numerous occasions healed it exclusively with Mutagen; it's not a complicated or challenging fight, except perhaps in the case of new players, or those with lower-end gear. I have also completed this on numerous occasions with no healer at all. And even in such a fight, grouping up is the practical and logical strategy, in which case Healing Springs is the more efficient option, and again gives all of the buffs and recovery as previously mentioned. Worst-case scenario, someone splits from the group and a simple Healing Ward resolves any concern.

Certain class buffs work well in this fight, like Purifying Ritual, Refreshing Path, and Igneous Shield, but the same can be said for Combat Prayer, which any good healer will be running for the sake of added protections and increased damage for their group. This brings me back to my initial point, which is that it ultimately doesn't matter which class you heal with. Time is better spent finding ways to provide as many buffs as possible to the group. The act of healing itself has become little more than the "busy work" of the role, with buffs being the real "value added" for the group.

okay first off, i am going to say i want the master resto, i am going to be running the vDSA as much as i can when it gets leveled.

second, i would like to point out i agree with the fact that all classes can heal effectively in this game. there is no real difference if the player that is healing is good with the the class that they are healing on.

could i get a pic of the 300 stam back please? not that i dont believe you it is just i ran the vDSA more then 50+ times and never actually got one. and that is another thing, you are acting like every person in the game has access to the staff, when the reality is that you had to get really lucky in the DSA when it was vr14, now that you will be able to trade, it up the chances by 4x.

lastly, the fact is, tamplar have access to the ONLY in class way to give stam back. out of the 3 way to do that in the game. and i was talking about repentance, 3.5k per body, i realize that shards are only good for dps and when there is no bodys around.

I really enjoy seeing a non temp healer, it shows that the game is flexible enough that you can play how you want.

I'm willing to post a screenshot of it later, but it'll have to wait until I get home.

Alternatively, you can add 20% (which is the value of a gold infused trait) to the base stamina restoration on the enchantment, which is 258 per the image linked earlier in the thread. By this we see 258 * 1.20 = 310. However, since I am still using a cp130 staff, my value is slightly lower (I think the base enchantment on a cp130 is 252 and the gold infused trait is 17%). The enchantment on the cp160 staff, intuitively, is going to be slightly higher.

I recognize your point that not everyone is going to have the Master's Resto staff. You say you've run it 50+ times, and while that's commendable, I've done it a few hundred. We all know the RNG in this game is appalling, and I'm as thankful as the next guy/gal that it will be that much easier in August. But with vMA staves being pretty much useless for healers, we have to turn to alternatives. Most healers are mixing their sets together, for example: 5 SPC, 3 Willpower, 1 Kena, 2/3 Torugs. This is totally fine, and doing so gets most people to the stats they need to be at to complete the harder trials. What I am suggesting here with the Master's Resto is a step further than simply "being ready" for trials; it's about being able to boost your group up past the point they can reach themselves (hence the efficiency argument I made for Springs).

In fact, stamina and magicka dps alike should always be accounting for their sustain. Some classes and builds have it easier than others, most definitely. But the only time a dps should be intentionally giving up the sustain they need for any given trial (or even boss-specific) is if they've been afforded that luxury by their group members. It is never good practice to say, "I think I'll get rid of this X reduced cost or recovery and hope my healer makes up the diffference." These things need to be discussed and tested in a practical setting, not just assumed.

In practice today, a significant portion of stamina melee dps are incorporating heavy attacks into their rotation on a regular basis. In the case of stam DKs and stam Sorcs, these heavy attacks occur every couple of a seconds; they are not so few-and-far-between that it's negligible - in other words, sustain is built into the rotation. As such, it stands to reason that shards (and Master's Resto too, if you like to group it that way) should be completely supplementary benefits. Relying on a shards or Master's Resto springs to keep yourself should be an immediate red flag that something in your build needs to be looked at.

Psyonico

There was a great point made that I want to reiterate. If your team consists of magic DPS and/or tank, the stamina is meaningless. If you are pugging, you never know what your team composition is going to be.

On my NB healer the other day my pug completed vet elden hollows with a level 28 on our team.

Also, if stamina is really an issue, take 15 seconds between a fight to regain it...

ARIES SERPICO

Kwik1 wrote: »

I am gonna start a new toon but I already have a templar I plan on remaking into a healer.

Any other classes good at it also? Not sure what are good options with the upcoming patch other then I was told High Elf Templar is hands down the best healer in the game.

I was kind of hoping Sorc or even NB were good. if they are maybe someone could link a decent guide to read up on them?

Breton or Maybe Argonian depending on racial passive changes next patch.

SolarCat02

cbaudersub17_ESO wrote: »

I wonder if this thread would be better titled for those spewing the ‘Templars best healers’ mantra, “Is templar the only good HEAL-BOT [for users of stamina scaling weapons]?”

Anecdote: I was running my sorc healer through the random daily dungeon the other day. After I got pulled in and before the social ‘hiya’ group, the leader posted in group that it would be alright for me to do damage too. I recall typing ‘okay’ while thinking that this player really has no idea. My internal bigotry leads me to conclude that this persons thinking has been narrowed by games which will not be named.

Or he could be thinking the same thing about you, thinking you might not realize that you can do more than just heal.

We had a fun veteran Darkshade run with four healers, for the amusement of it. (It was an absolute blast.) Only one could not also DPS; he announced intentions to change after the dungeon. He literally didn't realize that was an option until then.