Notes from a raiding GM

omfgitsbatman

This post is going to be a long one. I am basically going to list the requests and major complaints that I have heard or voiced myself among the PVE community.

Before we begin, I want to explain exactly what my eso background is, so there is an understanding of where I come from: I am the GM of a guild called Mercs of Sovngarde and have been around for just shy of 2 years. In my 2 years, I have tackled every bit of PVE content that has come out. The only boss I haven't killed in the game is Rakkhat in Vet Maw (but that will happen very soon). I have been in top scoreboard guilds such as Potato Syndicate, Fear is Failure, and was even an officer in Lrn to Play. I am no stranger to the end game PVE. I love hard content. I enjoy wiping (to a certain extent). I enjoy putting in the effort to down a boss. I do not want things handed to me. I have an overwhelming desire to beat anything the developers throw at me.

Now that I've introduced myself, here are some notes that I and many of the people within the end game PVE community have voiced:

• We want the ability quickly travel to our group within the instance. The sheer amount of downtime while running trials is probably the the largest contributor to frustration with End Game PVE. Every time someone disconnects, they have to start at the beginning and run all the way back. These are quite often very long runs... These long runs lead to longer AFK's from other people waiting, which means longer time for someone else to crash and begin this harsh circle of wasted time again. Something as simple as putting wayshrines that unlock at certain checkpoints within a trial would be extremely effective at cutting this wasted time down and would be a HUGE quality of life improvement.
  
• We need to be able to see more information in the in-game UI. I understand a minimalist UI from a certain standpoint. I understand the immersion argument that people don't want to see all these numbers on their screen. However, there are a large number of people that fall on the other side of the coin. We would like the option to see numbers on everything that we could put numbers on. We want to see numbers in our resource pools, we want to see all of the numbers that should be in our stat sheets (like critical modifier). We want to see how much health our allies have. We want to see exactly how big the shield we cast is and exactly how much we have left at any given point. The game is already keeping track of those numbers, why not give us the option of seeing them? We want the option of tracking the buffs and debuffs of ourselves and our targets. Make the minimalist UI the standard/default, but give us the options to see these numbers without addons. On PC, we fortunately have the option of installing addons for this... but the second we report something as not functioning correctly, the first response we get is "Did you disable your addons?" We shouldn't have to run addons to see these numbers. We should be able to have access to the information we need in order to improve ourselves without the use of addons.
  
• Make successful high end PVE runs rewarding. With the increasing DPS minimum for these trials, it takes quite a bit of gold/materials to be constantly competitive. To be "Raid Ready" for the top end content, one needs top of the line potions, food, and soul gems. One also needs to have their gear at a top level which most of the time means gold gear with gold enchants. Replacing even just 1 piece of gear (say when traits get all swapped around...) becomes an extremely expensive endeavor. All of this preparation and gold spent comes with very little recompense. The difference in preparation in order to complete places such as Normal Maw of Lorkhaj and Vet Maw of Lorkhaj is extreme. The difference in rewards is minimal. When right now, you can get the same gear from the normal and veteran versions, there is very little reward for actually trying and completing harder content. This is discouraging a vast majority of players from attempting the hard content. The high price of progression raiding is also excluding many people that actually do desire to complete the content.
  
• When content moves from PTS to live servers, it should be playable. When Maw of Lorkhaj was new on the PTS, there were quite a few groups that attempted the place, and Quite a few groups that reported bugs that made the encounters unplayable. Very few of the bugs were actually fixed by the time the update went live. So, when the twins were wiping groups that were performing the mechanics properly, giving visual bugs on mechanics that require proper visual cues to execute properly, and in a lot of instances weren't even rendering to over half of group... People got discouraged. People actually quit the game over this. We reported it 3 weeks before it went live... and no effort was put into fixing it. If there actually was a testing team that attempted these encounters, just 2 attempts at some of these bosses would have revealed many bugs that needed fixed.
  
• RNG based loot systems are only fun in conjunction with a guaranteed loot system. If one wants a specific piece of loot that drops from a specific encounter, then one should eventually be able to earn said loot if one beats that encounter enough times. A completely RNG based loot system does the exact opposite of what it's intended to. It is intended to make people do certain content more often. What it actually does is discourage people. When someone wants a Maelstrom's Inferno Staff in sharpened/precise, and one continues to recieve defending Maelstrom's swords and Rings of Glory, one gets very frustrated and sees no light at the end of the tunnel. One then quite frequently abandons hope and stops running this encounter. However, If one recieved a small number of tokens (that don't take up bag space) at the end of an encounter, specific to that encounter that they could trade for specific items after accumulating a large number of said token, then there would always be that light at the end of the tunnel. People would know that they would be able to earn their desired loot after 'X' number of runs.
  
• Make synergies work better. The synergies are just flat not working as they should. The most notable synergy that needs fixing is the combustion synergy from orbs. I have personally chased an orb for it's entire range trying to get the synergy from it. The synergies either are just not showing up reliably or they only show up for a split second and then are gone. Orbs definitely aren't alone in this. All synergies seem to be doing it to some point. I believe the problem is just compiled with a moving ability. With all of the vet maw sets requiring synergies to be activated, this is very frustrating.
  

I will probably add to this list as I remember a few more.

Ghost-Shot

Hey Tick can you link me your VMA fire staff real quick...

omfgitsbatman

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

Hey Tick can you link me your VMA fire staff real quick...

... I hate you so hard.

Ghost-Shot

omfgitsbatman wrote: »

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

Hey Tick can you link me your VMA fire staff real quick...

... I hate you so hard.

NewBlacksmurf

-Travel solution (yes) and not just in raids and dungeons but at a min...that's
-Loot tables need cleaning out for viable drops only (yes)
-more info in the UI as optional for certain players (maybe but only if we clean up and change the default UI a lot)
-I'd like to add in the suggestion for a basic NPC and boss info for dungeons and trials. (Similar to what WoW provides)


Good suggestions tho

timidobserver

I agree with everything in the OP. That said, I am comfortable with using addons, so if they had to prioritize the bullet points in this thread, I would be okay with UI suggestion getting the lowest priority.

@Seiffer @ZOS_Finn @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Oreyn_Bearclaw

You tell 'em, Tick. Very well thought out and presented. My resume isnt perhaps quite as impressive as his, but I have run with all raid groups mentioned, and at the same point where the only boss I havent cleared is Rakatt (been darn close).

I AGREE with EVERYTHING you said. Just last night, we had a VSO raid dissolve because it took too long. Not because we wiped, but because we spent a solid hour waiting on DCs and people running back. Why arent there wayshrines at each boss? Had to abandon the run because they have made it IMPOSSIBLE to replace a player or deal with a DC once you hit the last boss because of a stupid F'ing door that wont unlock. Another huge bug that went live is the spears on Osara. You typically have to hit the synergy at least twice to get them to work.

As for the loot system, it is beyond awful. It only got worse this patch by adding completely garbage traits to end game gear. NOBODY WANTS PROSPEROUS OR TRAINING ON ANYTHING USED AT ENDGAME!!! I have stopped running VMA because of this exact problem. If there was a token system (even if it took 50 runs), I would be back in there tomorrow. Might do it for the title on a few more toons, but I am done trying to get what I want out of here. I have been reasonably lucky, but it is not worth my effort any longer. I am after 2 very specific items with specific traits (have plenty of them in bad traits). I could get them in one run (last chest or leaderboard), or I could run it every day for a year and get neither. I am smarter than that, thanks anyways...

As for the gear required, I made my nut so to speak a while ago. I can craft/buy most anything I need. That being said, I cant even begin to fathom trying to play endgame content without a million gold in your bank. We have no flexibility to experiment. No ability to alter our gear. Try something and it doesnt work? Only option is to trash it for maybe a 50/50 shot at a gold mat, and spend 50-75k on a new piece. And that doesn't even consider that they just changed half the traits in the game. Giving Crafters the ability to alter gear, would go a long way to helping this issue.

Anyway, good post. Hope someone looks at it and actually does something, but I am not holding my breath. I am going on vacation on Friday for a week and plan to do some soul searching about where this game is headed and whether I really want to continue on this path. I haven't felt like I have been rewarded for my efforts in quite some time. Last drop I got really excited about was my 5 piece of Scathing, shame it turned out to be garbage for 95% of builds.

timidobserver

omfgitsbatman wrote: »

[*]We want the ability quickly travel to our group within the instance. The sheer amount of downtime while running trials is probably the the largest contributor to frustration with End Game PVE. Every time someone disconnects, they have to start at the beginning and run all the way back. These are quite often very long runs... These long runs lead to longer AFK's from other people waiting, which means longer time for someone else to crash and begin this harsh circle of wasted time again. Something as simple as putting wayshrines that unlock at certain checkpoints within a trial would be extremely effective at cutting this wasted time down and would be a HUGE quality of life improvement.

To add to this point, I am sitting here at the Serpent on Vet Hard Mode unable to proceed because someone crashed and it isn't possible to get through the door after Hard Mode has been initiated. With the level of client issues and crash problems this game has, developers should not add in mechanics that prevent people from re-entering the last boss room.

Molag_Crow

Agreed!

code65536

We want the ability quickly travel to our group within the instance.

@rokrdt05 made a thread about this a few weeks ago, and I agree that this is a huge pain point, especially in places like SO where there is so much physical distance to cover.

This is a deliberate design choice by ZOS because if someone crashes, disconnects, or logs out in nSO or nMoL, they will log back in at the exact location they were at. But in vSO, vMoL and other scored trials, they are placed in the lobby. That they have two different systems for nSO vs. vSO and nMoL vs. vMoL means that this wasn't some oversight on their part--this is deliberate.

Which then begs the question: Why? I don't see how allowing someone to log back in at the point they logged off could be problematic. I can't imagine any scenario in which this could be exploited to give a group an unfair advantage, esp. since you can't voluntarily log out in mid-combat, and if you are involuntarily logged out, your character still remain in the game for a period of time (i.e., you can't Alt-F4 to avoid an imminent death).

I really hope @ZOS_Finn would pop in here and either explain why this mechanism is needed for scored trials or deliver us some good news about how they are reconsidering this design choice.

omfgitsbatman

timidobserver wrote: »

omfgitsbatman wrote: »

[*]We want the ability quickly travel to our group within the instance. The sheer amount of downtime while running trials is probably the the largest contributor to frustration with End Game PVE. Every time someone disconnects, they have to start at the beginning and run all the way back. These are quite often very long runs... These long runs lead to longer AFK's from other people waiting, which means longer time for someone else to crash and begin this harsh circle of wasted time again. Something as simple as putting wayshrines that unlock at certain checkpoints within a trial would be extremely effective at cutting this wasted time down and would be a HUGE quality of life improvement.

To add to this point, I am sitting here at the Serpent on Vet Hard Mode unable to proceed because someone crashed and it isn't possible to get through the door after Hard Mode has been initiated. With the level of client issues and crash problems this game has, developers should not add in mechanics that prevent people from re-entering the last boss room.

That kind of goes with my other point of making things playable by the time they get to live servers also XD.
Same thing has happened to my groups.

Foxic

I agree with all of this.

Foxic

I would also like to add that being able to sell loot from vso and not vmol is ridiculous. The hardest content in game should make you the most money

omfgitsbatman

TotallyNotVos wrote: »

I would also like to add that being able to sell loot from vso and not vmol is ridiculous. The hardest content in game should make you the most money

I understand where you are coming from, but
Hircine, wurmcult, and ebon are sellable.
That being said, they are attainable elsewhere at very close to max level and normal maw is way easier than normal sanctum... both of which drop the exact same great as their veteran counterparts except the last boss on vet hardmode can drop gold gear.

holosoul

TotallyNotVos wrote: »

I would also like to add that being able to sell loot from vso and not vmol is ridiculous. The hardest content in game should make you the most money

While I agree with you, I've never played a game with raids where this was the case. Ignoring the fact that I think PVP is a higher skill cap, we'll just let that go though. In EQ and WoW for example, raids were a gigantic mat farm/gold sink/repair sink that cost a lot of gold and had profitability levels of virtually 0. Granted, the rewards in stuff like anguish and naxx40 (most T3 was even BiS in PVP!) were incredible and the RNG was not very frustrating in the grand scheme of things.

That said, it simultaneously saddens me that every 'new' game has to copy every tradition from older games as if there is some kind of "standard template" all of them have to follow. I think this results in shallow copies of the previous games, with a "new spin!" on the game they made plus some stylistic changes. Very sad, very sad indeed. We haven't actually had a new MMO in over a decade because the AAA companies are too cowardly to do anything but steal ideas.

Sallington

They really need either a token system, or the removal of crap traits on end-game drops.

Asmael

Sallington wrote: »

They really need either a token system, or the removal of crap traits on end-game drops.

Panth141

Agree entirely.

Ravinsild

holosoul wrote: »

That said, it simultaneously saddens me that every 'new' game has to copy every tradition from older games as if there is some kind of "standard template" all of them have to follow. I think this results in shallow copies of the previous games, with a "new spin!" on the game they made plus some stylistic changes. Very sad, very sad indeed. We haven't actually had a new MMO in over a decade because the AAA companies are too cowardly to do anything but steal ideas.

What worries me most is just being 100% in the dark. This game has been so weird since the beginning. It's some horrible bipolar abomination that swings between being "A REAL ELDER SCROLLS GAME!!!!one!!1!!" and being an MMO. As if there's not some common harmony that can be found....

This Tamriel One thing coming out - what does that mean for end-game and progression? If there are no levels...is it like boosting to 100 or whatever in WoW then getting on the gear treadmill to raid immediately?

Where are we going? What's the vision for this game? What do the developers want from this game? Do they want a narrative driven faction rivals game sort of like WoW (Horde vs Alliance!) or just an open sandbox figure things out yourself open world thing like EVE or the single player Elder Scrolls games?

Do they want linear progression ever chasing bigger and badder stats? Or horizontal progression like GW? Do they want it to be a PvE game? PvP?

What is their vision? What is this game? It's been swinging around like Dr. Jeckel and Mr. Hyde since the beginning with no clear trajectory, path or vision.

Barbet

As a person who has played this game since beta, who participates in all aspects of the game and just got the code to post.

I would like to stress the importance that the gear that drops should be something you would want to get, especially when doing a trial, a pledge or VMA in hard mode. To put this in a perspective that one may understand.

First, make a bowl of candy that consists of 7 m and m's, 7 reese's pieces, 21 black jelly beans, 21 red jelly beans, 21 yellow jelly beans, 21 pink jelly beans, 21 lime jelly beans, 21 candy corn, and 21 of your least favorite candy ever.

Second, rent a movie that you absolutely love.

Third, start the movie then pause it for 15 minutes.

Fourth, start the movie and watch it for 5-10 minutes. Then wait 5 minutes.

Fifth, watch the movie another 5-10 minutes. Blindly and quickly, pick a peace of candy out of the bowl. Keep it but replace the exact same candy.

sixth, wait 15 minutes and then resume the movie for 10 minutes.

Seventh, repeat steps 4-6 until the movie ends.

repeat process until you have either 5 m and m's or 5 reece's pieces. Then you may eat the candy.

Make it even more fun and invite 4 people to watch a movie you all like.

Then invite 12 people to watch a movie, but in his movie your allowed to exchange candy pieces with each other ever 3rd time.

If you complete this process, tell me how much you now like the movie and how many friends that still come to see the movie with you.

What we are asking for is more good candy, less nasty candy and no waiting to resume the movie, but we don't want to watch a movie, we want to a TV watch a show with no commercials.


When I stop laughing, I stop playing. (now to figure out how to make that my signature line.)

willymchilybily

well said @omfgitsbatman.

omfgitsbatman wrote: »

• RNG based loot systems are only fun in conjunction with a guaranteed loot system. ...[snip] no light at the end of the tunnel. One then quite frequently abandons hope and stops running this encounter.[snip]

not just the encounter, I know A guy i haven't seen play at all in 2 months. He was not getting an item he was really trying to get. After he lost hope of getting it, he left

Denial - I'll get one eventually, I'm bound to.
Anger - Well this is annoying, 7 to 8 copies several items i don't need, and nothing i do need.
Bargaining - Please ZOS can we have a token system
Depression - Whats the point in trying I'm never getting the item I want
Acceptance - This Sh** isn't for me I'm 'a do somethin' else.

been on 1+ leaderboards since my first complete (PS4 trophy = 15/1/2016) 5 months back. I haven't even received an inferno staff yet. My friend completes the vMA for the second time (1st leaderboard), Precise Inferno staff as leaderboard reward.

Ghost-Shot

@ZOS_RichLambert I have watched one guild die to lack of content during 1.6, and another die from frustration over the state Maw released in (RIP Da Funk/L2P). You are loosing entire guilds, not just a few players here and there but entire raid guilds. These are things that were brought up to you during the first Council of Raiders meeting and is something you said you were painfully aware of and you take very seriously and I was inclined to believe you at the time. But then you allowed Maw to release with mobs that people couldn't always see, curses that just did't work leading to wipes that weren't preventable and an instance so unstable if you could make it through a boss fight with 9/12 raid members online you were doing great.

Please take the time to thoroughly read Tick's post here, there are a lot of good things there.

Rune_Relic

We want the ability quickly travel to our group within the instance - Agree
We need to be able to see more information in the in-game UI - Maybe. Depends on context and content.
Make successful high end PVE runs rewarding - 50/50. Fix RNG (tokens/craft glyph) + Make bad gear relevant + Drop gold tempers.
When content moves from PTS to live servers, it should be playable - Agree
RNG based loot systems are only fun in conjunction with a guaranteed loot system - Agree. Need a bad RNG safety net

Basically stop with the layer, upon layer, upon layer, of exponential RNG.

Preyfar

omfgitsbatman wrote: »

When content moves from PTS to live servers, it should be playable. When Maw of Lorkhaj was new on the PTS, there were quite a few groups that attempted the place, and Quite a few groups that reported bugs that made the encounters unplayable. Very few of the bugs were actually fixed by the time the update went live. So, when the twins were wiping groups that were performing the mechanics properly, giving visual bugs on mechanics that require proper visual cues to execute properly, and in a lot of instances weren't even rendering to over half of group...

The Holy/Shadow orbs over people's head don't render reliably, and it seems like there's a 20% chance your allies will end up completely invisible. These make these tough fights more challenging than they need to be.

Ghost-Shot

Preyfar wrote: »

omfgitsbatman wrote: »

When content moves from PTS to live servers, it should be playable. When Maw of Lorkhaj was new on the PTS, there were quite a few groups that attempted the place, and Quite a few groups that reported bugs that made the encounters unplayable. Very few of the bugs were actually fixed by the time the update went live. So, when the twins were wiping groups that were performing the mechanics properly, giving visual bugs on mechanics that require proper visual cues to execute properly, and in a lot of instances weren't even rendering to over half of group...

The Holy/Shadow orbs over people's head don't render reliably, and it seems like there's a 20% chance your allies will end up completely invisible. These make these tough fights more challenging than they need to be.

When it first released on the live server, there was a bug (that we reported on pts and demonstrated to @ZOS_Finn on a stream) where the holy/shadow aspects on the second boss would sometimes just randomly assign themselves regardless of what side of the room you were on. I literally made the encounter unplayable yet it went live like that anyway.

Epona222

I am not going to pretend I'm some top end player, because I'm not - but just want to say for crying out loud the RNG basis of giving rewards for high end content sucks 99 times out of 100. I know people who have run a dungeon 100+ times to try to get the drop they want - sure it makes them repeat the dungeon, but they are not having fun when they are doing it, they are just wanting a particular drop and feeling a bit angry. A token system would still make dungeons desirable to do, but would alleviate a lot of RNG frustration.

AlnilamE

omfgitsbatman wrote: »

• We want the ability quickly travel to our group within the instance. The sheer amount of downtime while running trials is probably the the largest contributor to frustration with End Game PVE. Every time someone disconnects, they have to start at the beginning and run all the way back. These are quite often very long runs... These long runs lead to longer AFK's from other people waiting, which means longer time for someone else to crash and begin this harsh circle of wasted time again. Something as simple as putting wayshrines that unlock at certain checkpoints within a trial would be extremely effective at cutting this wasted time down and would be a HUGE quality of life improvement.
  

Agreed. Put some waypoints inside the instance so that people travelling or reclogging are put closer to the group. This is already the case in dungeons. I'm not sure why it's not a thing in Trials, which tend to cover more ground from start to finish.

Ravinsild

Epona222 wrote: »

I am not going to pretend I'm some top end player, because I'm not - but just want to say for crying out loud the RNG basis of giving rewards for high end content sucks 99 times out of 100. I know people who have run a dungeon 100+ times to try to get the drop they want - sure it makes them repeat the dungeon, but they are not having fun when they are doing it, they are just wanting a particular drop and feeling a bit angry. A token system would still make dungeons desirable to do, but would alleviate a lot of RNG frustration.

They could also add more bosses and condense the loot table per boss. 7-10 items per boss, pre-determined, and like 8 bosses a raid or whatever they are called here. That way you know the 4th boss has the loot table for the wicked sweet staff you want. The last boss has the pants you want, etc..

Rafishul

Well articulated. I'd tip my hat to you, but I hide headgear.

If I may add my two cents to your second bullet point, I'd add the absolute need for a target dummy of a level of sophistication comparable to SWTOR's. Instanced, with selectable health pools and resistance levels, and available to everyone individually. The high degree of mechanical coordination and dexterity that's required to achieve end-game worthy DPS requires it, as does the exhaustive testing needed to min-max gear and relevant stats. Creating such an environment has the added advantage of drawing a novice player's attention to the fact that practicing weaving, managing DoT uptime, and successfully utilizing ability procs is what distinguishes the good from the bad.

Wreuntzylla

I am not much of a PvEr, but reading this list, I would have thought these things were so basic that any game would have them at release.

mike_de

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

I am not much of a PvEr, but reading this list, I would have thought these things were so basic that any game would have them at release.

I agree. Seeing this list, it's a good reason never ever going into these raids. Too much bother, too little gain. Guaranteed loot is essential. Like waypoints and shrines for respawn. This games logs off itself more often than i can count. And if it does this in a raid, it's NOT my fault.

As long as the game is that unstable it is not a very good idea to let the players respawn at the raid enrance, or even worse, lock doors before the boss encounter. ZoS does not look very competent, doing things like that.