DPS Counter, add it...please?

SlayerTheDragon

DPS meters are actually good for a game. Yes they can show some bad things, but that is good...

• Slackers - good to know when others on the team are working hard.
• Inbalance - it will help give some real numbers on class and ability balance.
• Weakness - it helps to find and fix issues in your build.

Woeler

And of course playing with random groups gives you absolutely no right to complain. I mean join a damn guild and play with people you know can perform.

Rev Rielle

The problem with them is that they're not holistic; they're commonly used to just give one facet of a player's ability to play the game, and a very weak one at that.

Really anyone can stand there, and copy a build/rotation that is the flavour of the month and deal wonderful damage Sadly though with that often comes a sense of entitlement from that player that they are somehow superior to others and can boss other players around.

As a healer in-game I've seen all too many times 'good players' spewing out their numbers after battle, touting how wonderful they are, but then they continually fail to interrupt/dodge/block, and move out of the red when it's needed. Now this doesn't happen all the time of course, but it has happened enough to be noticeable.

I thoroughly enjoy at times being able to see dps and acknowledge that it is intimately very useful for testing/working out builds, however the toxic fuel it gives to the uneducated to misuse the tool to discriminate and abuse other players cannot be overlooked.

Samphaa

It doesn't need to be shared with or seen by anyone else other than yourself. I can't see the problem with trying to improve and wanting to know exactly what you're pulling.

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

I'm personally against this, but I respect those who want it.

My personal feelings is that this would just be used to force or 'forcefully encourage' other players to conform to a subset of min-maxed builds that cross a certain damage threshholds, when in reality the content should be built and designed for nearly every build, and the devs should continue to nerf and balance min-maxed builds down.

I dislike your mentality, why should people have to dumb their builds down to not face roll content just because other people can't be bothered to put the time in, learn the mechanics, build a decent character and get a decent team together, you're basically saying we should be punished for wanting to improve, what happened to wanting to be challenged? My friends are slowly leaving this game because it's becoming too easy and too boring.

SahrotRein

Smileybones wrote: »

No, DPS meters are aids when they allow one to see what others DPS are, it brings a lot of toxicity into the community and make relationship between players very bad.

For this reasons some MMO's decided not to include a DPS meter and I believe it's a wise thing.

Bet your DPS is pretty bad if you're too afraid of it!

Nah man, my apologies, lol. I couldn't help but to tease. I fully agree tho, I've been part of toxic, bad communities and this would only make ESO worse. People should just get an addon if they really want to see it.

Talyena

Runaan wrote: »

Smileybones wrote: »

No, DPS meters are aids when they allow one to see what others DPS are, it brings a lot of toxicity into the community and make relationship between players very bad.

For this reasons some MMO's decided not to include a DPS meter and I believe it's a wise thing.

Bet your DPS is pretty bad if you're too afraid of it!

Nah man, my apologies, lol. I couldn't help but to tease. I fully agree tho, I've been part of toxic, bad communities and this would only make ESO worse. People should just get an addon if they really want to see it.

The person asking plays on a console, no add ons. Plus I've noticed different add ons give different numbers. Toxic people will be toxic regardless of whether or not there is a built in DPS meter.

Wolfshead

Smileybones wrote: »

No, DPS meters are aids when they allow one to see what others DPS are, it brings a lot of toxicity into the community and make relationship between players very bad.

For this reasons some MMO's decided not to include a DPS meter and I believe it's a wise thing.

I total agree and one game that is good example on be toxicity in both forum and in game is WoW it is no more about have fun in that game at the end game anymore it is all about how much DPS you and other player put out which is so stupid.

phobossion

There are way more important factor in fights besides just pure DPS output. How much healing did you require? Did you stand in sh*t to increase your DPS numbers? Did you interrupt? Did you buff your team?

A good raid team can use something like Skada to read their performance and improve from there. For general population, however, DPS counters are just a plague. At least it was in WoW back when I was playing.

I would actually love ZOS to turn away from DPS as a mechanic in boss fights, replacing it with the need for environmental awareness, active mitigation, group synergy and the likes. There was another thread on tanking/healing that has discussed the problem of 3 DPS groups just bursting through any content, removing the need for any kind of support roles.

That being said, I am completely okay with a personal DPS meter that only you can see if you wish to optimize your character or test the effect of different build setups.

SlayerTheDragon

I cannot believe so many are against DPS meters!?!

As a Damage Dealer you are in the dungeon to... Deal Damage. If you are under performing (for whatever reason) the rest of the group should know about it.

If a tank under performs the group wipes.
If a healer under performs the group wipes.
If one DD under performs then that's OK?

MikeB

Please no, let's not add tools that would help the average player increase their skill level and understanding of the game or learn what skills, gear,.enchants, etc... Are better. It would only hurt the game... /end sarcasm.

This has already been talked to death. It will most likely not happen. You have to manual time your DPS/hps in console ESO. Just start a timer when u start the dungeon and stop and stop as needed. This will give you a rough idea of your numbers. Sucks but the alternative is playing a better game, which is more enticing after you've put up with enough failed attempts (imo) of ZOS making a good game.

If you want to succeed at PvE in ESO find a group of people you can tolerate and are half decent at games. Do NOT go into the group finder, it will only bring frustration. I've yet to get a group in the group finder, out of 5 tries mind you, that could complete a dungeon w/o several wipes. I got my group of people together by running dungeons and cherry picking the competent people out and adding them to my friends list. Now I have a group of about 10 people I can ask to do dungeons. We have now completed every Vet dungeon with all achievements. We've only not done the new trial due to no one wanting to support ZOS anymore.

phobossion

Samphaa wrote: »

I dislike your mentality, why should people have to dumb their builds down to not face roll content just because other people can't be bothered to put the time in, learn the mechanics, build a decent character and get a decent team together, you're basically saying we should be punished for wanting to improve, what happened to wanting to be challenged? My friends are slowly leaving this game because it's becoming too easy and too boring.

I think this is the problem. ZOS has said many times that this game is supposed to be accessible to a wide range of builds and playstyles. Some people may use certain weapons or skills because they like how they look, for example, and do not want to switch to a different build just for a DPS increase. Saying that following a cookie-cutter FotM build is "putting the time in" and "getting better" is just false.

I recall back when LOTRO launched I was playing a "dps" class, having no clue what DPS even is. The damage output difference between quest gear and BiS raid gear was marginal and good players were not those who followed some kind of "optimal build" but those who understood the fights, interrupted boss abilities, switched targets properly, applied the right party buffs for the situation etc.

I guess ZOS is trying to avoid the "Vanilla WoW" situation where most specs weren't even viable for the game, because of stupidly designed encounters where numbers were everything. Not sure is they are succeeding so far, though

dday3six

I personally support it, as well as training dummies. I would however add a few restrictions. Either make it so it's only visible for the individual, or that there's an option to toggle on/off and in groups it's only available group wide if all members have it toggled on.

There's always going to be toxic elements of interaction between people. In real life and in gaming. However we should not punish those who would not abuse something just because a small minority would. Just as we should not shy away from something benefical simply because it could be misused by some.

The same players who would be overly toxic toward others are likely to know if someone's DPS is 'subpar' just by watching that player. If for example a player is not using DOTs in a boss fight. It's readily visible, and is also a noticeable difference in DPS output.

Wolfshead

SlayerTheDragon wrote: »

I cannot believe so many are against DPS meters!?!

As a Damage Dealer you are in the dungeon to... Deal Damage. If you are under performing (for whatever reason) the rest of the group should know about it.

If a tank under performs the group wipes.
If a healer under performs the group wipes.
If one DD under performs then that's OK?

Again as many post here DPS meter well not benefit anyone just think about this you read in chat channel "look for DPS but you need to 400K in DPS" that would basically mean that only people that is so call "hardcore" player will join you and in every dungeon and raid it is will become more a DPS race then anything else.

Ofc not it is not ok that DD under perfrom but you have also reminder that dungeon and raid is not one man run it is team work and group effort honest i have been play WoW to the end of MoP and honest every dungeon and raid i was in at the end was only focus on one thing and one thing alone it was DPS out put nothing else matter.

Trust me when i say this you dont want ESO to become like that for DPS meter do more harm then good for everyone.

Iluvrien

No. Please. No.

Take this idea. Burn it. Sweep up the ashes. Seal the ashes in a lead-lined box. Drop that box into the depths of the ocean. Cover its resting place in Big Rocks so it never gets found again.

Especially if it is visually available to other people.

... yeah, I feel strongly about this. I've seen some really nasty conversations where DPS meters were used as the opening salvo. Not again. Not here.

Publius_Scipio

I really would like to know what DPS is? I know it's damage per second, but how is the actual DPS value calculated? I use the combat text and damage numbers are all over the place. One hit registers 4K and the next 12K. My weapon damage in UI sits at 4K (with buffs up).

MikeB

phobossion wrote: »

Edit: I guess I clicked the incorrect person to quote. Meant to quote Phobossion

Edit: deleted and reposted with correct person quoted

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

I'm personally against this, but I respect those who want it.

Not me.

I say play the game on your screen. If you need to measure your e-peen, meet up and do it in person like normal people.

Smileybones

For the love of Y'ffre don't add group DPS meters, they are bad.

To the ironic poster I can clear things like vWGT or vDSA but don't bother me with meters please ! I don't give a flying duck about numbers as the instance can be cleared withint a reasonable amount of time and with few or no deaths.

Why ? I'm not a teenager anymore and my ego doesn't need to be flattered with numbers. A personal meter for learning and build purposes is good of course, I've nothing against it, but group meters only bring the community and relationships down.

The game Tera doesn't have a builtin meter and people usually don't care about numbers as the job is getting done.

MikeB

phobossion wrote: »

Samphaa wrote: »

I dislike your mentality, why should people have to dumb their builds down to not face roll content just because other people can't be bothered to put the time in, learn the mechanics, build a decent character and get a decent team together, you're basically saying we should be punished for wanting to improve, what happened to wanting to be challenged? My friends are slowly leaving this game because it's becoming too easy and too boring.

I think this is the problem. ZOS has said many times that this game is supposed to be accessible to a wide range of builds and playstyles. Some people may use certain weapons or skills because they like how they look, for example, and do not want to switch to a different build just for a DPS increase. Saying that following a cookie-cutter FotM build is "putting the time in" and "getting better" is just false.

I recall back when LOTRO launched I was playing a "dps" class, having no clue what DPS even is. The damage output difference between quest gear and BiS raid gear was marginal and good players were not those who followed some kind of "optimal build" but those who understood the fights, interrupted boss abilities, switched targets properly, applied the right party buffs for the situation etc.

I guess ZOS is trying to avoid the "Vanilla WoW" situation where most specs weren't even viable for the game, because of stupidly designed encounters where numbers were everything. Not sure is they are succeeding so far, though

My friends and I have completed all but vWGT and vICP with 2 dps and a healer, 2 dps and a tank and with just 3 dps, no 4th person. We've done some of the easier vet dungeons solo or with just one other person (duo). We've completed vWGT and vICP with 4 dps and 3 dps & healer. This game is not hard, it's those that believe you can play "anyway you want" that have a hard time. Yes, you can complete all content in this game (excluding the newest trial and vMael) with white crafted sets with no enchants but you have to know a little of what you are doing. You can't just throw any skill that looks cool or "you" assume is good and do it in that gear. The game is easy but even the easiest content requires a little knowledge of sets, enchants and skills.

MikeB

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

I really would like to know what DPS is? I know it's damage per second, but how is the actual DPS value calculated? I use the combat text and damage numbers are all over the place. One hit registers 4K and the next 12K. My weapon damage in UI sits at 4K (with buffs up).

The damage you do is based on you weapon or spell damage (on you character screen) plus your gear, potions, buffs and enchants the minus the mobs resistances. The white numbers are regular non-crits hits and the yellow (?) Are crits or 1.5x damage (or is it 2x in ESO? I forget I haven't played in so long). That's the simple explanation.

Publius_Scipio

MikeB wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

I really would like to know what DPS is? I know it's damage per second, but how is the actual DPS value calculated? I use the combat text and damage numbers are all over the place. One hit registers 4K and the next 12K. My weapon damage in UI sits at 4K (with buffs up).

The damage you do is based on you weapon or spell damage (on you character screen) plus your gear, potions, buffs and enchants the minus the mobs resistances. The white numbers are regular non-crits hits and the yellow (?) Are crits or 1.5x damage (or is it 2x in ESO? I forget I haven't played in so long). That's the simple explanation.

Thanks. But people seem to speak about their DPS as if it were a single constant value. Confusing.

Samphaa

phobossion wrote: »

Samphaa wrote: »

I dislike your mentality, why should people have to dumb their builds down to not face roll content just because other people can't be bothered to put the time in, learn the mechanics, build a decent character and get a decent team together, you're basically saying we should be punished for wanting to improve, what happened to wanting to be challenged? My friends are slowly leaving this game because it's becoming too easy and too boring.

I think this is the problem. ZOS has said many times that this game is supposed to be accessible to a wide range of builds and playstyles. Some people may use certain weapons or skills because they like how they look, for example, and do not want to switch to a different build just for a DPS increase. Saying that following a cookie-cutter FotM build is "putting the time in" and "getting better" is just false.

I recall back when LOTRO launched I was playing a "dps" class, having no clue what DPS even is. The damage output difference between quest gear and BiS raid gear was marginal and good players were not those who followed some kind of "optimal build" but those who understood the fights, interrupted boss abilities, switched targets properly, applied the right party buffs for the situation etc.

I guess ZOS is trying to avoid the "Vanilla WoW" situation where most specs weren't even viable for the game, because of stupidly designed encounters where numbers were everything. Not sure is they are succeeding so far, though

The game is accessible to a wide range of players and play styles, look how much pve content is in the game. There's a sh*t ton. So much for different people to do besides veteran dungeons.

How can you say putting the time in and getting better is false? Is that not the road to self improvement and completing the things you want to complete? People should aspire to want to complete stuff as it is. Not nerf it because it's too hard. If you can't do it, you need to improve. Simple as that.

Look how long it takes to max a character and get gold gear, level up your skills, understand all of the mechanics, that is "putting the time in" regardless of what build you're running. You can put a awful player in the best gear in the game, they'll still be an awful player.

LadyNalcarya

Smileybones wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Lenikus wrote: »

to prevent 'elitism' and/or generic toxic behaviour towards more casual players.

Who will prevent toxic behaviour against support classes that those opressed casual dds often show?
And in any case, personal dps meter with an option to share wouldnt hurt anyone.

P.S. If you think that without group dps meter its impossible to tell that dps is low, you're very, very wrong.

You sound quite salty dude or dudette.

You keep bring into discussion support classes but having a group DPS meter wouldn't help them so your point is quite irrelevant.

Also no one denies about a personal DPs meter, it's all about group meter.

Also if you can't tell a low DPS without a meter, why wanting one ?

Try to make sense.

Bad dds itt (and other threads like this) are salty.
I'm just mirroring these posts... And yeah, its actually hilarious how demanding bad dds are to healers and tanks.
You're absolutely right that bad dps is noticeable, but a person who has it, might actually think that they keep wiping because of lack of support. With dps meter, they might see what's going wrong and improve (or choose not to improve, their choice). Or they might start blaming other team members that they cant do enough damage.

Speaking of group dps meters... I dont really see why an anyone would protest against it.
From my experience, those feared "pug elitists" are actually bad and insecure players, that blame others for their faults, and if their dps would be visible for everyone, they wouldnt be able to pretend they're so awesome. So this might actually benefit average players, as they will see that those "elitists" arent that "elite" and can vote kick them or something.
Also bein gable to compare dps numbers would be useful for those who want to improve, but not dedicated enough to have top-notch build and rotation. They will see realistic numbers in average groups, not top notch parses with 100% buff uptime.
Of course, like any other feature, it should be toggleable.

phobossion

MikeB wrote: »

My friends and I have completed all but vWGT and vICP with 2 dps and a healer, 2 dps and a tank and with just 3 dps, no 4th person. We've done some of the easier vet dungeons solo or with just one other person (duo). We've completed vWGT and vICP with 4 dps and 3 dps & healer. This game is not hard, it's those that believe you can play "anyway you want" that have a hard time. Yes, you can complete all content in this game (excluding the newest trial and vMael) with white crafted sets with no enchants but you have to know a little of what you are doing. You can't just throw any skill that looks cool or "you" assume is good and do it in that gear. The game is easy but even the easiest content requires a little knowledge of sets, enchants and skills.

Oh, I didn't mean that you should be able to just throw any combination of skills onto your hotbars, put on a white set and expect to be able complete any content in the game with ease! I am the first person who will stand up for harder content, with harder meaning "more complex", not "bigger boss health pools" that is.

As I've already posted, I am completely fine with people trying to improve their own performance using whatever tool they like. Posting other player's DPS numbers to the chat is however not improving anything and picking on someone's low DPS numbers is certainly not "helping them".

For reference, I haven't player a DPS toon since early TBC so this is not a personal issue to me, more an observation

MikeB

People keep referencing WoW when they speak about bad experiences with dps meters and I think you are forgetting WoW was designed to where numbers were all that mattered (for the most part). A lot of the bosses in WoW had hard enrage timers where if you didn't do enough DPS you wiped. ESO doesn't have this. Also, I highly doubt anyone of a mature mindset in this game would DPS check you at the door, it's just not needed. Now if there was a competence meter people in the group finder would be in trouble. But alas this is impossible.

clocksstoppe

Katahdin wrote: »

Been asked before. Didnt they disable that ability in one addon already?

No thanks

No, they didn't because they can't. As long as you know the damage you do it's very easy for an addon to calculate dps. In addition, because you can assume the tank and healer do little damage, you can still get an accurate estimate of the other DD's average dps with some simple math.

MikeB

Smileybones wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Smileybones wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Smileybones wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Lenikus wrote: »

to prevent 'elitism' and/or generic toxic behaviour towards more casual players.

Who will prevent toxic behaviour against support classes that those opressed casual dds often show?
And in any case, personal dps meter with an option to share wouldnt hurt anyone.

P.S. If you think that without group dps meter its impossible to tell that dps is low, you're very, very wrong.

You sound quite salty dude or dudette.

You keep bring into discussion support classes but having a group DPS meter wouldn't help them so your point is quite irrelevant.

Also no one denies about a personal DPs meter, it's all about group meter.

Also if you can't tell a low DPS without a meter, why wanting one ?

Try to make sense.

Speaking of group dps meters... I dont really see why an anyone would protest against it.

Care reading experiences and opinions that people bothered to share with you in the thread ?

Care to read my post?

I did, you're wrong and your arguments have been addressed already.

I believe Koshka was was making a statement rather than asking a question. Just my thoughts anyway.

LadyNalcarya

Smileybones wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Smileybones wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Smileybones wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Lenikus wrote: »

to prevent 'elitism' and/or generic toxic behaviour towards more casual players.

Who will prevent toxic behaviour against support classes that those opressed casual dds often show?
And in any case, personal dps meter with an option to share wouldnt hurt anyone.

P.S. If you think that without group dps meter its impossible to tell that dps is low, you're very, very wrong.

You sound quite salty dude or dudette.

You keep bring into discussion support classes but having a group DPS meter wouldn't help them so your point is quite irrelevant.

Also no one denies about a personal DPs meter, it's all about group meter.

Also if you can't tell a low DPS without a meter, why wanting one ?

Try to make sense.

Speaking of group dps meters... I dont really see why an anyone would protest against it.

Care reading experiences and opinions that people bothered to share with you in the thread ?

Care to read my post?

I did, you're wrong and your arguments have been addressed already.

Adressed?
People keep talking about elitism and stuff, but the thing is, actually dedicated players are rarely seen in pugs, and even if they do pug, they dont need to assert themselves. I've never seen any "pug elitist" whose skills would match their attitude and it wouldnt be too bad to make it visible for everyone.

Smileybones

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Smileybones wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Smileybones wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Smileybones wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Lenikus wrote: »

to prevent 'elitism' and/or generic toxic behaviour towards more casual players.

Who will prevent toxic behaviour against support classes that those opressed casual dds often show?
And in any case, personal dps meter with an option to share wouldnt hurt anyone.

P.S. If you think that without group dps meter its impossible to tell that dps is low, you're very, very wrong.

You sound quite salty dude or dudette.

You keep bring into discussion support classes but having a group DPS meter wouldn't help them so your point is quite irrelevant.

Also no one denies about a personal DPs meter, it's all about group meter.

Also if you can't tell a low DPS without a meter, why wanting one ?

Try to make sense.

Speaking of group dps meters... I dont really see why an anyone would protest against it.

Care reading experiences and opinions that people bothered to share with you in the thread ?

Care to read my post?

I did, you're wrong and your arguments have been addressed already.

Adressed?
People keep talking about elitism and stuff, but the thing is, actually dedicated players are rarely seen in pugs, and even if they do pug, they dont need to assert themselves. I've never seen any "pug elitist" whose skills would match their attitude and it wouldnt be too bad to make it visible for everyone.

Yes addressed, this game's intended audience is people gaming since a decade if not more, not clueless teens waving the epeen everywhere. Now if you can't read the whole thread I can't do much for you.

Itoq

I agree that there should be a counter to dps. Maybe not a damage shield that scales off of our damage attribute or something silly like a button that makes us a disappear, but maybe something simple like armor resistances that can't be easily 100% penetrated. Dunno. Maybe someone can brainstorm this.