Make Stamina NBs viable in PvE!!!!!!

lathbury

dday3six wrote: »

lathbury wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

It's an uphill battle. No matter the state of NB in PVP you'll have players complaining they're overpowered, and several players who think the focus should be on PVP who don't care about PVE cause everything is so 'easy'.

I don't think a class DOT converted to Stamina would be the best answer. That's too close to DK's shtick. Siphoning Attacks and Relentless Focus are taking up the space those DOTs would likely fill as well. My suggestion is for RF's Bow proc to add a DOT as well as it's damage as the morph bonus with the Stamina regen removed. Also the base skill, Grim Focus, should have a debuff so targets hit by the Bow proc take increased damage (2%-5%) for a short duration (5s-10s). Then the base skill Siphoning Strikes should have some sort of defense buff, perhaps stacking resistance for 2s-4s, for attacking added, and the return from Siphoning Attacks needs to be adjusted for better sustain.

Wouldnt increasaing the crtical damage passive for assassination skills slotted forget the name increase PVE dps without the need to rework these other skills.

NB's get a 10% increased Crit Hit Damage, 2% Crit Hit Chance per Assassination skill slotted, and 3% Weapon CHC (Minor Savagery) on Crit Hit from Passives. If you increase those value yes, it will increase DPS. However also cause a flood of players complaining about Stamina NB in PVP complete with pictures of Death Recaps of Stamina NB Crit hits. It also doesn't give them raid wide utility, which was the purpose of the increased damage debuff.

My suggestions were meant to address the current failings of Stamina NBs, but also add some benefits for Magicka, and Tank NBs as well. While adding a skill limit to manage this power increase hopefully side-stepping the PVP complaints as a results.

I would think the increased damage debuff will make bigger waves in pvp. raid wide utility is provided by the insane aoe and crit buff to group more can be brought by using night mothers set. I dont know in this regard stam nb and mag sorc are in the same boat hard to buff in PVE without completely unbalancing PVP.what if haemorrhage passive gave an increase to all bleeds? just spitballing

luxfreak

lathbury wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

lathbury wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

It's an uphill battle. No matter the state of NB in PVP you'll have players complaining they're overpowered, and several players who think the focus should be on PVP who don't care about PVE cause everything is so 'easy'.

I don't think a class DOT converted to Stamina would be the best answer. That's too close to DK's shtick. Siphoning Attacks and Relentless Focus are taking up the space those DOTs would likely fill as well. My suggestion is for RF's Bow proc to add a DOT as well as it's damage as the morph bonus with the Stamina regen removed. Also the base skill, Grim Focus, should have a debuff so targets hit by the Bow proc take increased damage (2%-5%) for a short duration (5s-10s). Then the base skill Siphoning Strikes should have some sort of defense buff, perhaps stacking resistance for 2s-4s, for attacking added, and the return from Siphoning Attacks needs to be adjusted for better sustain.

Wouldnt increasaing the crtical damage passive for assassination skills slotted forget the name increase PVE dps without the need to rework these other skills.

NB's get a 10% increased Crit Hit Damage, 2% Crit Hit Chance per Assassination skill slotted, and 3% Weapon CHC (Minor Savagery) on Crit Hit from Passives. If you increase those value yes, it will increase DPS. However also cause a flood of players complaining about Stamina NB in PVP complete with pictures of Death Recaps of Stamina NB Crit hits. It also doesn't give them raid wide utility, which was the purpose of the increased damage debuff.

My suggestions were meant to address the current failings of Stamina NBs, but also add some benefits for Magicka, and Tank NBs as well. While adding a skill limit to manage this power increase hopefully side-stepping the PVP complaints as a results.

I would think the increased damage debuff will make bigger waves in pvp. raid wide utility is provided by the insane aoe and crit buff to group more can be brought by using night mothers set. I dont know in this regard stam nb and mag sorc are in the same boat hard to buff in PVE without completely unbalancing PVP.what if haemorrhage passive gave an increase to all bleeds? just spitballing

The Haemorrhage Buff would be cool, IF we get another bleed damgage, besides Twin Slashes.
Eg if cripple gets a Stamina bleed Morph. Now i dont know how much Both Cripple Morphs are used by mag Blades.
But a passiv to increase one skill? That sounds kinda lame.
And what in eso apply bleed except twin slashes, and the axes bleed passiv.
Oh and i think PVP players gonna be happy about the axe bleed to tick even harder .

lathbury

luxfreak wrote: »

lathbury wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

lathbury wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

It's an uphill battle. No matter the state of NB in PVP you'll have players complaining they're overpowered, and several players who think the focus should be on PVP who don't care about PVE cause everything is so 'easy'.

I don't think a class DOT converted to Stamina would be the best answer. That's too close to DK's shtick. Siphoning Attacks and Relentless Focus are taking up the space those DOTs would likely fill as well. My suggestion is for RF's Bow proc to add a DOT as well as it's damage as the morph bonus with the Stamina regen removed. Also the base skill, Grim Focus, should have a debuff so targets hit by the Bow proc take increased damage (2%-5%) for a short duration (5s-10s). Then the base skill Siphoning Strikes should have some sort of defense buff, perhaps stacking resistance for 2s-4s, for attacking added, and the return from Siphoning Attacks needs to be adjusted for better sustain.

Wouldnt increasaing the crtical damage passive for assassination skills slotted forget the name increase PVE dps without the need to rework these other skills.

NB's get a 10% increased Crit Hit Damage, 2% Crit Hit Chance per Assassination skill slotted, and 3% Weapon CHC (Minor Savagery) on Crit Hit from Passives. If you increase those value yes, it will increase DPS. However also cause a flood of players complaining about Stamina NB in PVP complete with pictures of Death Recaps of Stamina NB Crit hits. It also doesn't give them raid wide utility, which was the purpose of the increased damage debuff.

My suggestions were meant to address the current failings of Stamina NBs, but also add some benefits for Magicka, and Tank NBs as well. While adding a skill limit to manage this power increase hopefully side-stepping the PVP complaints as a results.

I would think the increased damage debuff will make bigger waves in pvp. raid wide utility is provided by the insane aoe and crit buff to group more can be brought by using night mothers set. I dont know in this regard stam nb and mag sorc are in the same boat hard to buff in PVE without completely unbalancing PVP.what if haemorrhage passive gave an increase to all bleeds? just spitballing

The Haemorrhage Buff would be cool, IF we get another bleed damgage, besides Twin Slashes.
Eg if cripple gets a Stamina bleed Morph. Now i dont know how much Both Cripple Morphs are used by mag Blades.
But a passiv to increase one skill? That sounds kinda lame.
And what in eso apply bleed except twin slashes, and the axes bleed passiv.
Oh and i think PVP players gonna be happy about the axe bleed to tick even harder .

with the morphs available would give a stamblade a nice hot too

khele23eb17_ESO

Alcast wrote: »

Stam NB is in a good place together with Stam Temp/Sorc....in Trial situation...at least that is my opinion.

Really? Why dont serious trial groups use them then?

kadar

genjutsu_kami wrote: »

my first vet maelstrom arena completion run was done with my night blade ..... lool you don't need help in pve at all. simmer down on that.

This thread has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not a Stamina NB can complete vMA.

I'd trade some of my burst DPS for some more sustained DPS any day. Although I don't want all the classes to be overly similar...I don't want to be a Stamina DK that can Cloak. Hard to keep classes seperate and distict while still performing at the same level.

ryanborror

Currently surprise attack does more dps than any stamina spammable weapon skill and it's instant cast although this will change with dark brotherhood. It is very powerful but I will hate to run rapid strikes on a Stam nb. If played right you can get 30 plus dps single target but few people do. And as much as I hate it rapid strikes with cruel flurry will make nb damage much better making them just shy of Stam dk. The problem is they're hard to play right and more importantly most aren't geared correctly. I wish Zos would quit changing things so often.

lathbury

ryanborror wrote: »

Currently surprise attack does more dps than any stamina spammable weapon skill and it's instant cast although this will change with dark brotherhood. It is very powerful but I will hate to run rapid strikes on a Stam nb. If played right you can get 30 plus dps single target but few people do. And as much as I hate it rapid strikes with cruel flurry will make nb damage much better making them just shy of Stam dk. The problem is they're hard to play right and more importantly most aren't geared correctly. I wish Zos would quit changing things so often.

30k plus dps puts them behind magicka nb and way behind stam dk after patch I think the only build performing worse will be stam sorc in pve.

luxfreak

lathbury wrote: »

ryanborror wrote: »

Currently surprise attack does more dps than any stamina spammable weapon skill and it's instant cast although this will change with dark brotherhood. It is very powerful but I will hate to run rapid strikes on a Stam nb. If played right you can get 30 plus dps single target but few people do. And as much as I hate it rapid strikes with cruel flurry will make nb damage much better making them just shy of Stam dk. The problem is they're hard to play right and more importantly most aren't geared correctly. I wish Zos would quit changing things so often.

30k plus dps puts them behind magicka nb and way behind stam dk after patch I think the only build performing worse will be stam sorc in pve.

Im not too sure about even that.
We probably will be better single target, but we wont be able to hold them a candle in aoe situations.
They got buffed quite good in Patch 2.4.2

Besides, i want to see the Stamina Blade that can make 30k dps at Mantikora, with Surprise Attack, instead of Flurry.

Hridh

susmitds wrote: »

Stamina NBs, currently, are the second last class in PvE in terms of DPS (Stamina Sorcs are a close last and clearly need SERIOUS help as well).

I'm rerolling from my Stam sorcerer, which was my main until now. Losing the play on the edge, "do damage to survive" crit surge style makes me shelf what has been up to now my first char and main . Are Stam NB really in such a horrible situation, esp. regarding pve, vet dungeons welcomess in groups, vMA ??

Don't want to go with a dead.end build once again, and race being not changeable once rolled....

FatKidHatchets

I think this is a learn to play your class better. Many folks have gotten flawless conqueror on their stamina nightblade. I would assess your playstyle.

SanTii.92

Something has to be done with the Siphoning tree. The fact that we find any use of only two skills, siphoning attacks and catalyst, is just unacceptable.

SanTii.92

FatKidHatchets wrote: »

I think this is a learn to play your class better. Many folks have gotten flawless conqueror on their stamina nightblade. I would assess your playstyle.

What a rigorous and well thought measurement of class balance you have found mate. please tell me more

Hridh

Frankly, I don't have the time anymore to pour thousands of hours into a character... Is going Stamblade so much of a hassle and überhard mode, compared to magikablade or any DK build ?

I don't necessarily want to go with fotm easy build, but why go the masochistic way and be sub-par, compared to people having similar time commitments than I ?

FatKidHatchets

sAnn92 wrote: »

FatKidHatchets wrote: »

I think this is a learn to play your class better. Many folks have gotten flawless conqueror on their stamina nightblade. I would assess your playstyle.

What a rigorous and well thought measurement of class balance you have found mate. please tell me more

Balance? You can do with them almost anything you can do with any other stamina build. Again its a learn to play the class bit.

See what you really mean to say here is, "I want a spammable hard hitting skill that costs no stamina"

Put on more recovery, oh that lowers your damage? Thats how it goes.

Hell nightblade prolly has the most stamina class morphs. This threads a joke. The damage output of a good stamblade is on par with everyone elses.

Try a different build yours clearly isn't up to what you want it to do. Suprise attack isnt your only attack.

Heck if anything suprise attack needs nerfed. Its not much of a suprise when you spam it. After the first one, if used again in 5 seconds it does half damage. Sounds good to me.

SanTii.92

FatKidHatchets wrote: »

sAnn92 wrote: »

FatKidHatchets wrote: »

I think this is a learn to play your class better. Many folks have gotten flawless conqueror on their stamina nightblade. I would assess your playstyle.

What a rigorous and well thought measurement of class balance you have found mate. please tell me more

Balance? You can do with them almost anything you can do with any other stamina build. Again its a learn to play the class bit.

See what you really mean to say here is, "I want a spammable hard hitting skill that costs no stamina"

Put on more recovery, oh that lowers your damage? Thats how it goes.

Hell nightblade prolly has the most stamina class morphs. This threads a joke. The damage output of a good stamblade is on par with everyone elses.

Try a different build yours clearly isn't up to what you want it to do. Suprise attack isnt your only attack.

Heck if anything suprise attack needs nerfed. Its not much of a suprise when you spam it. After the first one, if used again in 5 seconds it does half damage. Sounds good to me.

I couldn't have asked for more thanks man. I just don't understand how I didn't came with this conclusión earlier!

Hridh

sAnn92 wrote: »

FatKidHatchets wrote: »

sAnn92 wrote: »

FatKidHatchets wrote: »

I think this is a learn to play your class better. Many folks have gotten flawless conqueror on their stamina nightblade. I would assess your playstyle.

What a rigorous and well thought measurement of class balance you have found mate. please tell me more

Balance? You can do with them almost anything you can do with any other stamina build. Again its a learn to play the class bit.

See what you really mean to say here is, "I want a spammable hard hitting skill that costs no stamina"

Put on more recovery, oh that lowers your damage? Thats how it goes.

Hell nightblade prolly has the most stamina class morphs. This threads a joke. The damage output of a good stamblade is on par with everyone elses.

Try a different build yours clearly isn't up to what you want it to do. Suprise attack isnt your only attack.

Heck if anything suprise attack needs nerfed. Its not much of a suprise when you spam it. After the first one, if used again in 5 seconds it does half damage. Sounds good to me.

I couldn't have asked for more thanks man. I just don't understand how I didn't came with this conclusión earlier!

I should rather ask if any class is less prone to being made of elitists...

Rune_Relic

Alcast wrote: »

PVE Trials

Nobody can really say where Stam NB will end up in PvE because nobody tried. All i Know is that Stam DK comes out on top, but Stam NB/temp/Sorc are kind of at the same level (in my opinion)

Also, it is quite hard to say where those setups end up because literally NOBODY tries does in Trials because 99% of the guilds are full magicka simply because it is easier.

Stam NB definitely got a boost because Killers blade change and the Dawnbreaker change which will be the best ultimate with maelstrom weapons.

Another thing, if you want max DPS then you have to get Maelstrom Dagges and use Rapid strikes. EVERY Stam setup has to. However, ofcourse you can use Surprise attack but you will loose dps, yet it is still a nice damage skill.

Stam NB is in a good place together with Stam Temp/Sorc....in Trial situation...at least that is my opinion.

How did the game end up in this '0-alternative' state.

mr_wazzabi

FatKidHatchets wrote: »

I think this is a learn to play your class better. Many folks have gotten flawless conqueror on their stamina nightblade. I would assess your playstyle.

Beating vmsa doesn't mean the class can do equal dps to others. It just means the player is good.

These people have raw data and numbers to back it up.

Nb have no stamina dots in the nb tree. Stam dk does.

Hridh

Alcast wrote: »

Stam NB is in a good place together with Stam Temp/Sorc....in Trial situation...at least that is my opinion.

Hahah thanks for the laughs, but lol :

Being with Stam Sorc is NOT being in a good place

Jaronking

FatKidHatchets wrote: »

sAnn92 wrote: »

FatKidHatchets wrote: »

I think this is a learn to play your class better. Many folks have gotten flawless conqueror on their stamina nightblade. I would assess your playstyle.

What a rigorous and well thought measurement of class balance you have found mate. please tell me more

Balance? You can do with them almost anything you can do with any other stamina build. Again its a learn to play the class bit.

See what you really mean to say here is, "I want a spammable hard hitting skill that costs no stamina"

Put on more recovery, oh that lowers your damage? Thats how it goes.

Hell nightblade prolly has the most stamina class morphs. This threads a joke. The damage output of a good stamblade is on par with everyone elses.

Try a different build yours clearly isn't up to what you want it to do. Suprise attack isnt your only attack.

Heck if anything suprise attack needs nerfed. Its not much of a suprise when you spam it. After the first one, if used again in 5 seconds it does half damage. Sounds good to me.

Lmao somebody got killed by a NB to many times in PVP I see.

DDuke

Hridh wrote: »

Frankly, I don't have the time anymore to pour thousands of hours into a character... Is going Stamblade so much of a hassle and überhard mode, compared to magikablade or any DK build ?

I don't necessarily want to go with fotm easy build, but why go the masochistic way and be sub-par, compared to people having similar time commitments than I ?

If you want to have an easy time, roll a stamina DK rather than a stamina NB.

Or wait until this patch is out so we can see the full extent of changes -though at this point it'd take short of a miracle to bring stamblade on par.

olsborg

Soul Siphoner - Increases the effectiveness of your healing done by 3% for each Siphoning ability slotted.

this passive helps very little for the stamblade, due to the fact that there aint many siphoning abilities that synergise well with stamina, power extraction being changed to disease dmg might help this somewhat, but not yet sure.

Lack of defensive abilities - The sheer lack of defensive of defensive abilities makes StamNBs rely a lot on dodging and blocking which add to the stamina drain

I agree here, to stay alive in pve and pvp you have to really dodge alot as a stamblade. Would be nice to have some defence other then that to stay alive.

SanTii.92

olsborg wrote: »

Soul Siphoner - Increases the effectiveness of your healing done by 3% for each Siphoning ability slotted.

this passive helps very little for the stamblade, due to the fact that there aint many siphoning abilities that synergise well with stamina, power extraction being changed to disease dmg might help this somewhat, but not yet sure.

I'm telling you, every single skill and passive of the siphoning tree has no use whatsoever for a stamblade dps, except Catalyst and Siphoning attacks. Unbelievable.

mr_wazzabi

FatKidHatchets wrote: »

sAnn92 wrote: »

FatKidHatchets wrote: »

I think this is a learn to play your class better. Many folks have gotten flawless conqueror on their stamina nightblade. I would assess your playstyle.

What a rigorous and well thought measurement of class balance you have found mate. please tell me more

Balance? You can do with them almost anything you can do with any other stamina build. Again its a learn to play the class bit.

See what you really mean to say here is, "I want a spammable hard hitting skill that costs no stamina"

Put on more recovery, oh that lowers your damage? Thats how it goes.

Hell nightblade prolly has the most stamina class morphs. This threads a joke. The damage output of a good stamblade is on par with everyone elses.

Try a different build yours clearly isn't up to what you want it to do. Suprise attack isnt your only attack.

Heck if anything suprise attack needs nerfed. Its not much of a suprise when you spam it. After the first one, if used again in 5 seconds it does half damage. Sounds good to me.

You're purely talking from a pvp perspective. This thread is about PVE DPS.

The new flurry does more dps than surprise attack and wrecking blow even without maelstrom weapons. With maelstrom weapons there's no comparison. That's even before you morph it to rapid strikes.

Stam dk with maelstrom daggers rotation--

Caltrops, arrow barrage, rapid strikes heavy weave--buffed noxious breath, rapid strikes heavy weave--buffed venom claw, rapid strikes heavy weave--buffed poison injection.

What is this? 3 single target mighty dots buffed by maelstrom weapon enchant, plus 2 aoe dots. Throw corrosive armour on top of that and all those dots penetrate armour.

Stam NB doesn't have anything close to that.

Stam NB might have caltrops, arrow barrage and poison injection, but that's it for dots not counting ultimates. In pve, the more dots you have, the higher the dps.

Compare magic nb to stam nb.

Mag rotation:
Wall of elements, path, medium weave crippling grasp, medium weave strife x 3, merciless resolve.

Stam rotation (with maelstrom daggers, new rapid strikes):
Caltrops, arrow barrage, rapid strikes heavy weave--buffed poison injection, rapid strikes heavy weave x 3, grim focus.

The magicka nb can do his most powerful rotation from range. Stam nb must be melee. Even then, his dps is less than magicka nb vs bosses.

Stam nb is a pvp class. This is why the op made the thread in the first place.

HuawaSepp

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/267979/dark-brotherhood-sorcerer-q-a#latest

In this thread wrobel said what he wants to hear from YOU to give YOU something in return.

Something, the only way to figure out what it will be, is to roll the dice!
So let's start

Zaryc

I just laughed about "the lack of sustain" stamina NBs have. Maybe we should compare sustain from all classes:

Stamina NB
- Refreshing Shadows: increase all regeneration by 15%
- Siphoning Attacks: light and heavy attacks (everyone should weave them in anyways) restore 999 magicka and stamina, all other direct dmg got a 10% chance to restore 1999 magicka and stamina (tooltip values from eso-skillfactory.com)

Stamina Temp
- Restoring Spirit: reduces magicka, stamina and ultimate costs by 4%
- Repentance: restores 795 health and stamina to you from corpses to you AND your allies, not usefull during most bossfights because you need corpses and since healers are running this, every stam build gets the benefit (tooltip values from eso-skillfactory.com)

Stamina Sorc
- Unholy Knowledge: reduces magicka and stamina costs by 5%
- Daedric Protection: increases health and stamina recovery by 20% with a Daedric Summoning abillity slotted

Stamina DK
- Battleroar: activating an ultimate restores 70% of the ultimates cost as health, magicka and stamina
- Helping Hands: activating an Earthen Heart abillity restores 5% stamina

Yes, DK passives gives awesome sustain and they don't have to waste time for activating a skill like NBs have to. But comparing Temps and Sorcs with NBs, the NB has way better sustain imo. 1k ressources everytime you light attack? So basiclly everytime you are using a skill because of weaving. Thats an awesome sustain tool and I would trade in every passive Temps or Sorcs have in terms of sustain everytime.

Oh and comparing damage would end in a similar way. Yes stam DKs are OP but temps? What's giving them good dmg? Jbs is outdps'ed by flurry. Power of the Light? Nice skill but nothing that would make them OP. And stamsorc with Hurricane? It's a nice skill, especially for AoE but it's not that good that you can say sorcs would have better dps then stam NBs. And for the passives: temps have the same critt multiplier then NBs +6% weapon dmg but NBs have more critt with Pressure Points. Sorcs have 5% more physical dmg and more stamina with Bound Armaments. And for group buffs: NBs have Hemorrhage, every other stam build benefits from this buff.

susmitds

Zaryc wrote: »

I just laughed about "the lack of sustain" stamina NBs have. Maybe we should compare sustain from all classes:

Stamina NB
- Refreshing Shadows: increase all regeneration by 15%
- Siphoning Attacks: light and heavy attacks (everyone should weave them in anyways) restore 999 magicka and stamina, all other direct dmg got a 10% chance to restore 1999 magicka and stamina (tooltip values from eso-skillfactory.com)

Stamina Temp
- Restoring Spirit: reduces magicka, stamina and ultimate costs by 4%
- Repentance: restores 795 health and stamina to you from corpses to you AND your allies, not usefull during most bossfights because you need corpses and since healers are running this, every stam build gets the benefit (tooltip values from eso-skillfactory.com)

Stamina Sorc
- Unholy Knowledge: reduces magicka and stamina costs by 5%
- Daedric Protection: increases health and stamina recovery by 20% with a Daedric Summoning abillity slotted

Stamina DK
- Battleroar: activating an ultimate restores 70% of the ultimates cost as health, magicka and stamina
- Helping Hands: activating an Earthen Heart abillity restores 5% stamina

Yes, DK passives gives awesome sustain and they don't have to waste time for activating a skill like NBs have to. But comparing Temps and Sorcs with NBs, the NB has way better sustain imo. 1k ressources everytime you light attack? So basiclly everytime you are using a skill because of weaving. Thats an awesome sustain tool and I would trade in every passive Temps or Sorcs have in terms of sustain everytime.

Oh and comparing damage would end in a similar way. Yes stam DKs are OP but temps? What's giving them good dmg? Jbs is outdps'ed by flurry. Power of the Light? Nice skill but nothing that would make them OP. And stamsorc with Hurricane? It's a nice skill, especially for AoE but it's not that good that you can say sorcs would have better dps then stam NBs. And for the passives: temps have the same critt multiplier then NBs +6% weapon dmg but NBs have more critt with Pressure Points. Sorcs have 5% more physical dmg and more stamina with Bound Armaments. And for group buffs: NBs have Hemorrhage, every other stam build benefits from this buff.

Cost Reduction of 5%>>>>15% Stamina Regen in PvE

DDuke

Zaryc wrote: »

I just laughed about "the lack of sustain" stamina NBs have. Maybe we should compare sustain from all classes:

Stamina NB
- Refreshing Shadows: increase all regeneration by 15%
- Siphoning Attacks: light and heavy attacks (everyone should weave them in anyways) restore 999 magicka and stamina, all other direct dmg got a 10% chance to restore 1999 magicka and stamina (tooltip values from eso-skillfactory.com)

Stamina Temp
- Restoring Spirit: reduces magicka, stamina and ultimate costs by 4%
- Repentance: restores 795 health and stamina to you from corpses to you AND your allies, not usefull during most bossfights because you need corpses and since healers are running this, every stam build gets the benefit (tooltip values from eso-skillfactory.com)

Stamina Sorc
- Unholy Knowledge: reduces magicka and stamina costs by 5%
- Daedric Protection: increases health and stamina recovery by 20% with a Daedric Summoning abillity slotted

Stamina DK
- Battleroar: activating an ultimate restores 70% of the ultimates cost as health, magicka and stamina
- Helping Hands: activating an Earthen Heart abillity restores 5% stamina

Yes, DK passives gives awesome sustain and they don't have to waste time for activating a skill like NBs have to. But comparing Temps and Sorcs with NBs, the NB has way better sustain imo. 1k ressources everytime you light attack? So basiclly everytime you are using a skill because of weaving. Thats an awesome sustain tool and I would trade in every passive Temps or Sorcs have in terms of sustain everytime.

Oh and comparing damage would end in a similar way. Yes stam DKs are OP but temps? What's giving them good dmg? Jbs is outdps'ed by flurry. Power of the Light? Nice skill but nothing that would make them OP. And stamsorc with Hurricane? It's a nice skill, especially for AoE but it's not that good that you can say sorcs would have better dps then stam NBs. And for the passives: temps have the same critt multiplier then NBs +6% weapon dmg but NBs have more critt with Pressure Points. Sorcs have 5% more physical dmg and more stamina with Bound Armaments. And for group buffs: NBs have Hemorrhage, every other stam build benefits from this buff.

Here's the thing, you're mostly comparing an active ability you have to slot to passives.

Slotting Siphoning Attacks does not give you any DPS increase whatsoever & in fact if you rely on it for sustain, you lose DPS every 15 seconds because you spend a GCD buffing yourself.

When you compare the passives alone, NB is the clear loser when it comes to sustain (well, kinda close with Templars).

Not that sustain really matters, just reroll Redguard & you'll never run out of stamina...


As for why other classes are better DPS, it's really simple: they have better offensive passives.

Here's how the passives boost DPS for each class:

Nightblade

• +10% Weapon/Spell Damage while sneaking/invisible - never active in PvE.
• +2% Crit for slotting an Assassination ability - only one worth slotting on main bar is Killer's Blade, so +2% crit
• +10% Critical Strike Damage
• 20 Ultimate after drinking a potion - 2.25 ulti/s
• 2 Ultimate after using a Siphoning Ability, 4s cooldown (0,5 ulti/s) - no Siphoning abilities that boost your DPS as stamblade

Templar

• 10% Critical Strike Damage
• +6% Weapon Damage
• +3 Ultimate after using a Dawn's Wrath Ability, 6s cooldown (0,5 ulti/s) - activated with Power of the Light
• -4% Ultimate costs

Sorcerer

• -15% Ultimate Costs
• +5% Physical Damage
• Between 30-50% chance every second of passively proccing a 20k+ tooltip execute (more damage than a Killer's Blade cast) when target is at 15% or below
• +4% weapon damage (for having Hurricane & Bound Armaments slotted)
• +8% Max Stamina (Bound Armaments - practically a passive since you dont have to cast it)
• +11% Heavy Attack Damage (Bound Armaments - practically a passive since you dont have to cast it)

Skills wise, the only thing worth slotting from Nightblade skills is Killer's Blade, an execute that deals less damage (even at <25% health) than Executioner. A stamblade DPS from 25%->0% is less than Stam DK DPS from 100%->0%. 'Nuf said.

Note: you also want to slot Relentless Focus on 2nd bar to activate the +10% Critical Strike damage passive, but it's not worth actually casting if you want to increase your DPS.


Other than that, we're the same as other classes - except with worse passives.

luxfreak

DDuke wrote: »

Zaryc wrote: »

I just laughed about "the lack of sustain" stamina NBs have. Maybe we should compare sustain from all classes:

Stamina NB
- Refreshing Shadows: increase all regeneration by 15%
- Siphoning Attacks: light and heavy attacks (everyone should weave them in anyways) restore 999 magicka and stamina, all other direct dmg got a 10% chance to restore 1999 magicka and stamina (tooltip values from eso-skillfactory.com)

Stamina Temp
- Restoring Spirit: reduces magicka, stamina and ultimate costs by 4%
- Repentance: restores 795 health and stamina to you from corpses to you AND your allies, not usefull during most bossfights because you need corpses and since healers are running this, every stam build gets the benefit (tooltip values from eso-skillfactory.com)

Stamina Sorc
- Unholy Knowledge: reduces magicka and stamina costs by 5%
- Daedric Protection: increases health and stamina recovery by 20% with a Daedric Summoning abillity slotted

Stamina DK
- Battleroar: activating an ultimate restores 70% of the ultimates cost as health, magicka and stamina
- Helping Hands: activating an Earthen Heart abillity restores 5% stamina

Yes, DK passives gives awesome sustain and they don't have to waste time for activating a skill like NBs have to. But comparing Temps and Sorcs with NBs, the NB has way better sustain imo. 1k ressources everytime you light attack? So basiclly everytime you are using a skill because of weaving. Thats an awesome sustain tool and I would trade in every passive Temps or Sorcs have in terms of sustain everytime.

Oh and comparing damage would end in a similar way. Yes stam DKs are OP but temps? What's giving them good dmg? Jbs is outdps'ed by flurry. Power of the Light? Nice skill but nothing that would make them OP. And stamsorc with Hurricane? It's a nice skill, especially for AoE but it's not that good that you can say sorcs would have better dps then stam NBs. And for the passives: temps have the same critt multiplier then NBs +6% weapon dmg but NBs have more critt with Pressure Points. Sorcs have 5% more physical dmg and more stamina with Bound Armaments. And for group buffs: NBs have Hemorrhage, every other stam build benefits from this buff.

Here's the thing, you're mostly comparing an active ability you have to slot to passives.

Slotting Siphoning Attacks does not give you any DPS increase whatsoever & in fact if you rely on it for sustain, you lose DPS every 15 seconds because you spend a GCD buffing yourself.

When you compare the passives alone, NB is the clear loser when it comes to sustain (well, kinda close with Templars).

Not that sustain really matters, just reroll Redguard & you'll never run out of stamina...


As for why other classes are better DPS, it's really simple: they have better offensive passives.

Here's how the passives boost DPS for each class:

Nightblade

• +10% Weapon/Spell Damage while sneaking/invisible - never active in PvE.
• +2% Crit for slotting an Assassination ability - only one worth slotting on main bar is Killer's Blade, so +2% crit
• +10% Critical Strike Damage
• 20 Ultimate after drinking a potion - 2.25 ulti/s
• 2 Ultimate after using a Siphoning Ability, 4s cooldown (0,5 ulti/s) - no Siphoning abilities that boost your DPS as stamblade

Templar

• 10% Critical Strike Damage
• +6% Weapon Damage
• +3 Ultimate after using a Dawn's Wrath Ability, 6s cooldown (0,5 ulti/s) - activated with Power of the Light
• -4% Ultimate costs

Sorcerer

• -15% Ultimate Costs
• +5% Physical Damage
• Between 30-50% chance every second of passively proccing a 20k+ tooltip execute (more damage than a Killer's Blade cast) when target is at 15% or below
• +4% weapon damage (for having Hurricane & Bound Armaments slotted)
• +8% Max Stamina (Bound Armaments - practically a passive since you dont have to cast it)
• +11% Heavy Attack Damage (Bound Armaments - practically a passive since you dont have to cast it)

Skills wise, the only thing worth slotting from Nightblade skills is Killer's Blade, an execute that deals less damage (even at <25% health) than Executioner. A stamblade DPS from 25%->0% is less than Stam DK DPS from 100%->0%. 'Nuf said.

Note: you also want to slot Relentless Focus on 2nd bar to activate the +10% Critical Strike damage passive, but it's not worth actually casting if you want to increase your DPS.


Other than that, we're the same as other classes - except with worse passives.

Ok, heres the thing: Relentless Fcosu Sclaes somehow with max Stats, means, its damage increases when i use a Weapon Damage
Pot. Thats on live. It Hits for ~15k per tooltip. Next Patch it scales with Mighty and Armor Pen, so it Hits for ~20-25k.
Then its always worth to have the 8% Overall Daage Buff up. Nw you may say 'Combat Prayer'. I say: YOu cant depend on Combat Praer to be Activ 100%, especially in Raids, where the Healers have other stuff to do then spamming Combat Prayer.

Next thing, we Stamblades get Incap Strike with Disease Damage. That may be a Nuff for mainly PVP, but stam blades in PVE als can use it. it hits for around 25k i guess. and it gives you a 6 second major Damage Buff.
You can use it like every 20 seconds i guess. I think its worth Slotting it in the 2nd Bar, and use in in Singlearget Situations.
If there is more then 1 enemy, ofc, Dawnbreaker is Stronger.
Means we have a Choice.

So for the Title:
i think Stam Blades are viable in PVE, only not as strong as Stam dks, or Magika Builds.
But a good player can probably with ease Produce 30k+ DPS against eg. a Mantikora.

DDuke

luxfreak wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Zaryc wrote: »

I just laughed about "the lack of sustain" stamina NBs have. Maybe we should compare sustain from all classes:

Stamina NB
- Refreshing Shadows: increase all regeneration by 15%
- Siphoning Attacks: light and heavy attacks (everyone should weave them in anyways) restore 999 magicka and stamina, all other direct dmg got a 10% chance to restore 1999 magicka and stamina (tooltip values from eso-skillfactory.com)

Stamina Temp
- Restoring Spirit: reduces magicka, stamina and ultimate costs by 4%
- Repentance: restores 795 health and stamina to you from corpses to you AND your allies, not usefull during most bossfights because you need corpses and since healers are running this, every stam build gets the benefit (tooltip values from eso-skillfactory.com)

Stamina Sorc
- Unholy Knowledge: reduces magicka and stamina costs by 5%
- Daedric Protection: increases health and stamina recovery by 20% with a Daedric Summoning abillity slotted

Stamina DK
- Battleroar: activating an ultimate restores 70% of the ultimates cost as health, magicka and stamina
- Helping Hands: activating an Earthen Heart abillity restores 5% stamina

Yes, DK passives gives awesome sustain and they don't have to waste time for activating a skill like NBs have to. But comparing Temps and Sorcs with NBs, the NB has way better sustain imo. 1k ressources everytime you light attack? So basiclly everytime you are using a skill because of weaving. Thats an awesome sustain tool and I would trade in every passive Temps or Sorcs have in terms of sustain everytime.

Oh and comparing damage would end in a similar way. Yes stam DKs are OP but temps? What's giving them good dmg? Jbs is outdps'ed by flurry. Power of the Light? Nice skill but nothing that would make them OP. And stamsorc with Hurricane? It's a nice skill, especially for AoE but it's not that good that you can say sorcs would have better dps then stam NBs. And for the passives: temps have the same critt multiplier then NBs +6% weapon dmg but NBs have more critt with Pressure Points. Sorcs have 5% more physical dmg and more stamina with Bound Armaments. And for group buffs: NBs have Hemorrhage, every other stam build benefits from this buff.

Here's the thing, you're mostly comparing an active ability you have to slot to passives.

Slotting Siphoning Attacks does not give you any DPS increase whatsoever & in fact if you rely on it for sustain, you lose DPS every 15 seconds because you spend a GCD buffing yourself.

When you compare the passives alone, NB is the clear loser when it comes to sustain (well, kinda close with Templars).

Not that sustain really matters, just reroll Redguard & you'll never run out of stamina...


As for why other classes are better DPS, it's really simple: they have better offensive passives.

Here's how the passives boost DPS for each class:

Nightblade

• +10% Weapon/Spell Damage while sneaking/invisible - never active in PvE.
• +2% Crit for slotting an Assassination ability - only one worth slotting on main bar is Killer's Blade, so +2% crit
• +10% Critical Strike Damage
• 20 Ultimate after drinking a potion - 2.25 ulti/s
• 2 Ultimate after using a Siphoning Ability, 4s cooldown (0,5 ulti/s) - no Siphoning abilities that boost your DPS as stamblade

Templar

• 10% Critical Strike Damage
• +6% Weapon Damage
• +3 Ultimate after using a Dawn's Wrath Ability, 6s cooldown (0,5 ulti/s) - activated with Power of the Light
• -4% Ultimate costs

Sorcerer

• -15% Ultimate Costs
• +5% Physical Damage
• Between 30-50% chance every second of passively proccing a 20k+ tooltip execute (more damage than a Killer's Blade cast) when target is at 15% or below
• +4% weapon damage (for having Hurricane & Bound Armaments slotted)
• +8% Max Stamina (Bound Armaments - practically a passive since you dont have to cast it)
• +11% Heavy Attack Damage (Bound Armaments - practically a passive since you dont have to cast it)

Skills wise, the only thing worth slotting from Nightblade skills is Killer's Blade, an execute that deals less damage (even at <25% health) than Executioner. A stamblade DPS from 25%->0% is less than Stam DK DPS from 100%->0%. 'Nuf said.

Note: you also want to slot Relentless Focus on 2nd bar to activate the +10% Critical Strike damage passive, but it's not worth actually casting if you want to increase your DPS.


Other than that, we're the same as other classes - except with worse passives.

Ok, heres the thing: Relentless Fcosu Sclaes somehow with max Stats, means, its damage increases when i use a Weapon Damage
Pot. Thats on live. It Hits for ~15k per tooltip. Next Patch it scales with Mighty and Armor Pen, so it Hits for ~20-25k.
Then its always worth to have the 8% Overall Daage Buff up. Nw you may say 'Combat Prayer'. I say: YOu cant depend on Combat Praer to be Activ 100%, especially in Raids, where the Healers have other stuff to do then spamming Combat Prayer.

Next thing, we Stamblades get Incap Strike with Disease Damage. That may be a Nuff for mainly PVP, but stam blades in PVE als can use it. it hits for around 25k i guess. and it gives you a 6 second major Damage Buff.
You can use it like every 20 seconds i guess. I think its worth Slotting it in the 2nd Bar, and use in in Singlearget Situations.
If there is more then 1 enemy, ofc, Dawnbreaker is Stronger.
Means we have a Choice.

So for the Title:
i think Stam Blades are viable in PVE, only not as strong as Stam dks, or Magika Builds.
But a good player can probably with ease Produce 30k+ DPS against eg. a Mantikora.

Casting Relentless Focus is a DPS loss, here is why (from Nightblade feedback thread) and a solution on how to make it a viable part of DPS rotation:

DDuke wrote: »

Elevenstorm wrote: »

In competitive trial groups relentless focus and their morphs are always a dps loss. Healers are giving you the same buff you get from that ability. This is where stamblades need the most help! Competitive end game trials. Our dps is too low to be competitive so we need something to augment it. As a redguard I do not ever have problems with stamina and I run 3 wep damage glyphs on my jewelry. Stamblades need higher single target sustained dps without buffing the burst potential as we are already too strong at that. Agreed that the passives could be looked at to help us in this arena as a couple could be changed to help stamina as well as in their current state of only magicka.

It's a DPS loss because you need to rebuff after using the proc. If you didn't have to rebuff yourself after using it, it would be a DPS increase as it deals quite a lot of damage (especially now that they made it scale with MIghty).

---

For comparison's sake, here's Rapid Strikes:



The cast time is actually 0.9 seconds, there is a tooltip error I believe - so the DPS I get by casting it is:
1234+(1234+3%)+(1271+3%)+(1309+3%)+(1348+303%)=10 596 +10% (0.9s cast speed)->11 655,6 DPS

Not counting mitigation/crits.

Now here's Relentless Focus with the same gear etc:



17 808 DPS

Not counting mitigation/crits.


Problem is, at the moment you have to recast it again after using it, which means for every Assassin's Scourge you cast you spend another GCD doing no damage recasting the Relentless Focus. This means we cut in half the 17 808, leaving us with 8904 DPS.


If it didn't require recasting the ability after using the proc, we'd gain a significant DPS boost after every 4 light attacks - this would mesh well with the "burst damage" playstyle of stamina nightblade, without really affecting PvP too much.


How much exactly would our DPS increase by? Well, if we do one Rapid Strikes+LA rotation roughly every 1,2 seconds, it'd take 4,8 seconds to get a proc of Relentless Focus - which deals 6152.4 DPS more (11 655,6-17 808) than a Rapid Strikes rotation.

Divided by 4,8, that'd result in an average of 1281.75 DPS increase.

Not counting mitigation/crits.


It's a start.