Make Stamina NBs viable in PvE!!!!!!

susmitds

Stamina NBs, currently, are the second last class in PvE in terms of DPS (Stamina Sorcs are a close last and clearly need SERIOUS help as well).

Stamina NBs lack several things which are needed in PvE.

1. Lack of proper sustain - The Stamina NBs' self sustain got a huge hit from the nerf to Siphoning Strikes indirect procs. Now it is impossible to maintain sustain, while maintaining a standard DPS rate, without a templar's help. Most of Stamina Nightblade damage comes from direct abilities due to lack of class based DoTs and hence drain stamina very fast.
2. Lack of defensive abilities - The sheer lack of defensive of defensive abilities makes StamNBs rely a lot on dodging and blocking which add to the stamina drain
3. Lack of survival skills - Stamina don't have access to any self-heals or even any buffs that increase self-healing and a burden to healers.
4. Lack of use from class skills :- Most of the class skill morphs of Stamina NBs cater to small scale PvP and are not of much use in PvE.
   • Ambush is useless in PvE.
   • Suprise Attack is outdone in DPS severely by weapon skills in PvE.
   • Power Extraction is outdone in DPS severely by weapon skills.
   • Relentless Focus is usefull but only for the Minor Endurance buff as the Minor Berserk buff is already on at all times in groups due to Healer's running Combat Prayer.
   • Soul Harvest deals magic damage and hence of not much use.
   • Incapacitating Strike's stun is useless in PvE.
   • Killer's Blade is the only useful ability in a Stamblade's kit.
5. Lack of utility for groups - There is nothing in the Stamblades' kit that help the group. The debuffs are already covered by tanks.
6. Not getting much use from passives :-
   • Executioner - Killing an enemy with an Assassination ability restores 1428 Magicka over 6 seconds.
   • Magicka Flood - Increases Max Magicka by 8% while a Siphoning ability is slotted.
   • Soul Siphoner - Increases the effectiveness of your healing done by 3% for each Siphoning ability slotted.
   • Transfer - Activating a Siphoning ability grants 2 additional Ultimate. This effect has a 4 second cooldown.

Lets breakdown the current advantages of other classes in PvE.

Magicka Nightblade - Great sustain and very high DPS. Heals allies with DPS. Extreme ultimate build up rates.
Stamina DK - Very high DPS due to availability of extremely powerful DoTs and good sustain. Great survivability.
Magicka Templar - High DPS, extreme survivability and great utility to groups with shards, repentance etc. Hands down the best healer.
Stamina Templar - High DPS, great survivabilty, good sustain and good utility to groups with repentance.
Magicka Sorcs - Very high but unstable DPS.
Magicka DK - High DPS, great survivability.
Stamina Nightblade - Strong initial burst but that's it.
Stamina Sorcerer - Good survivability depending on situations but that's it.

As you can see, there is hardly anything good going for Stamina Nightblades currently.

On the other hard, they are a burden to group as they need constant help for sustain as well as survival.

It is makes no sense for a class without any defense or survivability to be impaired in damage dealing capabilities as well.

The changes that is being made for Stamina Nightblades, is pigeon holing them in to PvP ganking and small group skirmish. That is the only thing Stamina Nightblades are good at and that is not very healthy either.

Khaos_Bane

I really enjoy the Magicka Templar, I'm not sure about the High DPS since I heal mostly and do DPS while healing. Obviously, group members love my sharts as well.

Magicka NB is awesome, SOLID DPS and heals while doing damage, and a great addition to any group. I'm not a big fan of healing with my NB though.

susmitds

@Wrobel , @ZOS_RichLambert ,

genjutsu_kami

my first vet maelstrom arena completion run was done with my night blade ..... lool you don't need help in pve at all. simmer down on that.

susmitds

There are various possible fixes to this problem if only ZOS took the time to deal with it.

susmitds

genjutsu_kami wrote: »

my first vet maelstrom arena completion run was done with my night blade ..... lool you don't need help in pve at all. simmer down on that.

But did you get any awesome score? Nope. And we are talking post-TG here.

susmitds

@DDuke , @The_Outsider , @Strider_Roshin

SanTii.92

genjutsu_kami wrote: »

my first vet maelstrom arena completion run was done with my night blade ..... lool you don't need help in pve at all. simmer down on that.

Is that supposed to mean anything to us. You'd expect that if you are going to keep trolling every nb post there you'd at least say Anything remotely coherent, but nop.

genjutsu_kami

susmitds wrote: »

genjutsu_kami wrote: »

my first vet maelstrom arena completion run was done with my night blade ..... lool you don't need help in pve at all. simmer down on that.

But did you get any awesome score? Nope. And we are talking post-TG here.

no not on my first ever go but after that i did and got a maelstrom ice staff sharpened

[Edit to remove baiting]

MrTarkanian48

Khaos_Bane wrote: »

Obviously, group members love my sharts as well.

I don't think anyone loves sharts

susmitds

genjutsu_kami wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

genjutsu_kami wrote: »

my first vet maelstrom arena completion run was done with my night blade ..... lool you don't need help in pve at all. simmer down on that.

But did you get any awesome score? Nope. And we are talking post-TG here.

no not on my first ever go but after that i did and got a maelstrom ice staff sharpened

OK you can stay away with your magblade and your staff. It is about Stamblade.

genjutsu_kami

susmitds wrote: »

genjutsu_kami wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

genjutsu_kami wrote: »

my first vet maelstrom arena completion run was done with my night blade ..... lool you don't need help in pve at all. simmer down on that.

But did you get any awesome score? Nope. And we are talking post-TG here.

no not on my first ever go but after that i did and got a maelstrom ice staff sharpened

OK you can stay away with your magblade and your staff. It is about Stamblade.

it was with my stam blade ... and i watched @Alcast video step by step for like 1hr to do it sooooo yeah

[Edit to remove baiting]

susmitds

genjutsu_kami wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

genjutsu_kami wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

genjutsu_kami wrote: »

my first vet maelstrom arena completion run was done with my night blade ..... lool you don't need help in pve at all. simmer down on that.

But did you get any awesome score? Nope. And we are talking post-TG here.

no not on my first ever go but after that i did and got a maelstrom ice staff sharpened

OK you can stay away with your magblade and your staff. It is about Stamblade.

it was with my stam blade ... and i watched @Alcast video step by step for like 1hr to do it sooooo yeah

And @Alcast , well he can tell you about how good stamblade is in vMA, compared to all other classes. Assuming that you don't claim that you are better than him.

[Edit to remove baiting]

Jaronking

So because your finished it that means NB are good in PVE?Yea that logic doesn't work how many stamblades have completed Vet Maw like one.Their not competitive in PVe

Silver_Strider

I agree that Stamina NB are sort of bad as far as sustain (be it resource sustain or damage sustain) goes since all the changes to Siphoning Attacks.

We have great burst damage but burst only gets you so far in things like vMoL where fights can drag on forever and that burst slowly becomes more and more strenuous on your resources without a counterbalance, which Siphoning Attacks no longer fulfills as well as it once did.

genjutsu_kami

susmitds wrote: »

genjutsu_kami wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

genjutsu_kami wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

genjutsu_kami wrote: »

my first vet maelstrom arena completion run was done with my night blade ..... lool you don't need help in pve at all. simmer down on that.

But did you get any awesome score? Nope. And we are talking post-TG here.

no not on my first ever go but after that i did and got a maelstrom ice staff sharpened

OK you can stay away with your magblade and your staff. It is about Stamblade.

it was with my stam blade ... and i watched @Alcast video step by step for like 1hr to do it sooooo yeah

And @Alcast , well he can tell you about how good stamblade is in vMA, compared to all other classes. Assuming that you don't claim that you are better than him.

no no your miss informed I'm a fan of @Alcast i think he's a great stamina player like most players.... and he completed it and also posted a helpful video to show how to complete it ......he does something positive for the community.

can't say that for you but hey its all good.

[Edit to remove baiting]

genjutsu_kami

Jaronking wrote: »

So because your finished it that means NB are good in PVE?Yea that logic doesn't work how many stamblades have completed Vet Maw like one.Their not competitive in PVe

I've not tried maw yet being running VMA to try and get a sharpened axe but I've seen videos looks interesting.

ill have to try it with my stamblade and see if it suffers before i make a comment on that.

susmitds

genjutsu_kami wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

genjutsu_kami wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

genjutsu_kami wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

genjutsu_kami wrote: »

my first vet maelstrom arena completion run was done with my night blade ..... lool you don't need help in pve at all. simmer down on that.

But did you get any awesome score? Nope. And we are talking post-TG here.

no not on my first ever go but after that i did and got a maelstrom ice staff sharpened

OK you can stay away with your magblade and your staff. It is about Stamblade.

it was with my stam blade ... and i watched @Alcast video step by step for like 1hr to do it sooooo yeah

And @Alcast , well he can tell you about how good stamblade is in vMA, compared to all other classes. Assuming that you don't claim that you are better than him.

no no your miss informed I'm a fan of @Alcast i think he's a great stamina player like most players.... and he completed it and also posted a helpful video to show how to complete it ......he does something positive for the community.

can't say that for you but hey its all good.

This one is too weird to speak to.

MrTarkanian48

I agree with the OP that stam NB is not ideal for DPS in PVE.

Having both a Stam and Mag NB there is no comparison.

However, I doubt that they will be able to do anything about it. And if they do, it will either be next year or still be less than ideal. Stam Sorc's have been campaigning for much needed attention forever and ended up with Hurricane and a nerf to Crit Surge. People have been complaining about NB being OP (mostly PVP), so I doubt they will be very quick to buff them.

I think a big part of removing vet ranks was to reduce the amount of people complaining about the class they chose, simply it will allow people to roll new toons with much less of a time investment.

If you want to be competitive and like NB's I'd re-roll a Dunmer Mag NB and slowly start leveling it to Vet 1 before DB drops.

If you like stam start leveling a Khajiit DK.

susmitds

MrTarkanian48 wrote: »

I agree with the OP that stam NB is not ideal for DPS in PVE.

Having both a Stam and Mag NB there is no comparison.

However, I doubt that they will be able to do anything about it. And if they do, it will either be next year or still be less than ideal. Stam Sorc's have been campaigning for much needed attention forever and ended up with Hurricane and a nerf to Crit Surge. People have been complaining about NB being OP (mostly PVP), so I doubt they will be very quick to buff them.

I think a big part of removing vet ranks was to reduce the amount of people complaining about the class they chose, simply it will allow people to roll new toons with much less of a time investment.

If you want to be competitive and like NB's I'd re-roll a Dunmer Mag NB and slowly start leveling it to Vet 1 before DB drops.

If you like stam start leveling a Khajiit DK.

Already started a Khajiit DK.

genjutsu_kami

susmitds wrote: »

genjutsu_kami wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

genjutsu_kami wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

genjutsu_kami wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

genjutsu_kami wrote: »

my first vet maelstrom arena completion run was done with my night blade ..... lool you don't need help in pve at all. simmer down on that.

But did you get any awesome score? Nope. And we are talking post-TG here.

no not on my first ever go but after that i did and got a maelstrom ice staff sharpened

OK you can stay away with your magblade and your staff. It is about Stamblade.

it was with my stam blade ... and i watched @Alcast video step by step for like 1hr to do it sooooo yeah

And @Alcast , well he can tell you about how good stamblade is in vMA, compared to all other classes. Assuming that you don't claim that you are better than him.

no no your miss informed I'm a fan of @Alcast i think he's a great stamina player like most players.... and he completed it and also posted a helpful video to show how to complete it ......he does something positive for the community.

can't say that for you but hey its all good.

This one is too weird to speak to.

i just clicked agree.

I'm on your side man

i stand for what you stand for man

balance

Spearblade

susmitds wrote: »

[*] Not getting much use from passives :-

• Executioner - Killing an enemy with an Assassination ability restores 1428 Magicka over 6 seconds.
• Magicka Flood - Increases Max Magicka by 8% while a Siphoning ability is slotted.
• Soul Siphoner - Increases the effectiveness of your healing done by 3% for each Siphoning ability slotted.
• Transfer - Activating a Siphoning ability grants 2 additional Ultimate. This effect has a 4 second cooldown.

[/list]

You lost all credibility with me when you failed to mention the VERY USEFUL, GOOD passives for Stamina Nightblades.

Pressure Points.
Hemorrhage.
Refreshing Shadows.
Dark Vigor.
Shadow Barrier.
Dark Veil.
Master Assassin.

And for the record, Soul Siphoner/Transfer can be useful too. I actually use Soul Siphon ultimate (on my Stamblade) as my "uh oh" button and slot Vigor/Rally on that bar for more healing potential.

Surprise Attack shouldn't outdps other spammables. It applies Major Fracture AND throws Shadow Barrier (Major Resolve/Ward) up instantly. Weapon skills have cast times too. Naturally, they will outdps the instant cast. As they should.

Side note...Stam Sorcs have "Survivability" in some "situations." I literally lol'd.

susmitds

Spearblade wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

[*] Not getting much use from passives :-

• Executioner - Killing an enemy with an Assassination ability restores 1428 Magicka over 6 seconds.
• Magicka Flood - Increases Max Magicka by 8% while a Siphoning ability is slotted.
• Soul Siphoner - Increases the effectiveness of your healing done by 3% for each Siphoning ability slotted.
• Transfer - Activating a Siphoning ability grants 2 additional Ultimate. This effect has a 4 second cooldown.

[/list]

You lost all credibility with me when you failed to mention the VERY USEFUL, GOOD passives for Stamina Nightblades.

Pressure Points.
Hemorrhage.
Refreshing Shadows.
Dark Vigor.
Shadow Barrier.
Dark Veil.
Master Assassin.

And for the record, Soul Siphoner/Transfer can be useful too. I actually use Soul Siphon ultimate (on my Stamblade) as my "uh oh" button and slot Vigor/Rally on that bar for more healing potential.

Surprise Attack shouldn't outdps other spammables. It applies Major Fracture AND throws Shadow Barrier (Major Resolve/Ward) up instantly. Weapon skills have cast times too. Naturally, they will outdps the instant cast. As they should.

Side note...Stam Sorcs have "Survivability" in some "situations." I literally lol'd.

Well other classes benefit from almost every passive. Why should stamina nightblades not benefit from every passive they have? That's what class passives are for.

Whether a spammable skill is an instant or a channel does not matter in PvE. Flurry outDPSes surprise attack by 40% which is a lot. Major fracture does not matter as tanks already have it covered. You missed the PvE mention.

Currently on live, I can literally not die in mobs by spamming Steel Tornado with Crit surge on my stamina sorcerer.

Think before commenting, man.

dday3six

It's an uphill battle. No matter the state of NB in PVP you'll have players complaining they're overpowered, and several players who think the focus should be on PVP who don't care about PVE cause everything is so 'easy'.

I don't think a class DOT converted to Stamina would be the best answer. That's too close to DK's shtick. Siphoning Attacks and Relentless Focus are taking up the space those DOTs would likely fill as well. My suggestion is for RF's Bow proc to add a DOT as well as it's damage as the morph bonus with the Stamina regen removed. Also the base skill, Grim Focus, should have a debuff so targets hit by the Bow proc take increased damage (2%-5%) for a short duration (5s-10s). Then the base skill Siphoning Strikes should have some sort of defense buff, perhaps stacking resistance for 2s-4s, for attacking added, and the return from Siphoning Attacks needs to be adjusted for better sustain.

lathbury

dday3six wrote: »

It's an uphill battle. No matter the state of NB in PVP you'll have players complaining they're overpowered, and several players who think the focus should be on PVP who don't care about PVE cause everything is so 'easy'.

I don't think a class DOT converted to Stamina would be the best answer. That's too close to DK's shtick. Siphoning Attacks and Relentless Focus are taking up the space those DOTs would likely fill as well. My suggestion is for RF's Bow proc to add a DOT as well as it's damage as the morph bonus with the Stamina regen removed. Also the base skill, Grim Focus, should have a debuff so targets hit by the Bow proc take increased damage (2%-5%) for a short duration (5s-10s). Then the base skill Siphoning Strikes should have some sort of defense buff, perhaps stacking resistance for 2s-4s, for attacking added, and the return from Siphoning Attacks needs to be adjusted for better sustain.

Wouldnt increasaing the crtical damage passive for assassination skills slotted forget the name increase PVE dps without the need to rework these other skills.

dday3six

lathbury wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

It's an uphill battle. No matter the state of NB in PVP you'll have players complaining they're overpowered, and several players who think the focus should be on PVP who don't care about PVE cause everything is so 'easy'.

I don't think a class DOT converted to Stamina would be the best answer. That's too close to DK's shtick. Siphoning Attacks and Relentless Focus are taking up the space those DOTs would likely fill as well. My suggestion is for RF's Bow proc to add a DOT as well as it's damage as the morph bonus with the Stamina regen removed. Also the base skill, Grim Focus, should have a debuff so targets hit by the Bow proc take increased damage (2%-5%) for a short duration (5s-10s). Then the base skill Siphoning Strikes should have some sort of defense buff, perhaps stacking resistance for 2s-4s, for attacking added, and the return from Siphoning Attacks needs to be adjusted for better sustain.

Wouldnt increasaing the crtical damage passive for assassination skills slotted forget the name increase PVE dps without the need to rework these other skills.

NB's get a 10% increased Crit Hit Damage, 2% Crit Hit Chance per Assassination skill slotted, and 3% Weapon CHC (Minor Savagery) on Crit Hit from Passives. If you increase those value yes, it will increase DPS. However also cause a flood of players complaining about Stamina NB in PVP complete with pictures of Death Recaps of Stamina NB Crit hits. It also doesn't give them raid wide utility, which was the purpose of the increased damage debuff.

My suggestions were meant to address the current failings of Stamina NBs, but also add some benefits for Magicka, and Tank NBs as well. While adding a skill limit to manage this power increase hopefully side-stepping the PVP complaints as a results.

Alcast

PVE Trials

Nobody can really say where Stam NB will end up in PvE because nobody tried. All i Know is that Stam DK comes out on top, but Stam NB/temp/Sorc are kind of at the same level (in my opinion)

Also, it is quite hard to say where those setups end up because literally NOBODY tries does in Trials because 99% of the guilds are full magicka simply because it is easier.

Stam NB definitely got a boost because Killers blade change and the Dawnbreaker change which will be the best ultimate with maelstrom weapons.

Another thing, if you want max DPS then you have to get Maelstrom Dagges and use Rapid strikes. EVERY Stam setup has to. However, ofcourse you can use Surprise attack but you will loose dps, yet it is still a nice damage skill.

Stam NB is in a good place together with Stam Temp/Sorc....in Trial situation...at least that is my opinion.

imenace

they are good, u are bad. thats the problem, EVERY CLASS CAN WORK IN PVE. simple as that, if you cant make something work ur just bad or need to try harder

dday3six

imenace wrote: »

they are good, u are bad. thats the problem, EVERY CLASS CAN WORK IN PVE. simple as that, if you cant make something work ur just bad or need to try harder

Working, but drastically outclassed is the spot all non-DK Stamina builds are at. That's not a healthy class balance.

Silver_Strider

Nerf to death stroke and teleport strike.
Yep, ZOS really cares for NBs.
/sarcasm

Attackopsn

Going to try this one more time, sigh...

Let's begin by completely separating this discussion from pvp, because the problem is pve related, and any changes made shouldn't have any impact on pvp. I'll start by comparing them to other classes through Veteran Maelstrom Arena, which is something I am very familiar with and feel more comfortable making statements on.

Magicka Sorcerer
This is by far the easiest class to do score runs on, and the easiest for me to get sub 45 minute runs on as I can manage my ultimate much more efficiently through Overload in addition to having strong healing through Power Surge and incredibly high mitigation (which I try to only apply between rounds to avoid losing time). Magicka Sorcerer thrives in vma in the current live iteration of the game.

Stamina Sorcerer
Low damage output with high mobility and high healing. The only thing that shines here is power surge, but next update with the incoming passive changes they will easily sit as the second highest stamina dps class. Hurricane may become a useful ability too, but the current morph on live has limited usefulness.

side note too with sorcerers, the changes to power surge will destroy their survivability, even for magicka sorcerers which arguably depend more on surge than hardened ward for competitive speed runs

Magicka Dragonknight
One of my favorites to run personally, I believe that I flawless it the second-most on this character behind my Magicka Sorcerer during speed runs between scales and eruption's snare. They suffer on damage in VMA slightly since it's based around shorter encounters, but since they manage adds better with scales, they compensate by not having to play defensive quite as often as the other classes. Battle Roar is awesome too allowing for more resource intense set-ups.

Stamina Dragonknight
Being stamina, it's a little trickier to move through the arena as smoothly as a ranged class, and they also lose a bit of time because they have a lot of set up before they begin melting things through flurry+dot, but they melt bosses even on semi-short encounters. Definitely the highest stam dps class, but loses out on trash fights against something like stamina nightblade.

Magicka Templar
Sweeps and radiant! Well, it's a little more complicated than that lol, and I personally believe that it's easier to consistently get no death score runs on magicka dk due to scales and ranged attacks, but templars having high dps and awesome passive healing while dealing damage makes 550k plus runs much easier than magicka dragonknight imo.

Stamina Templar
Very efficient on trash fights, pretty decent on boss fights. Repentance helps manage resources between rounds.

Magicka Nightblade
The second easiest class to get those 560k runs behind sorc from my experience, but it gets a little crazy when the only healing and survivability you have is strife and refreshing path allowing zero mistakes or you will die. Dps is awesome, and this class can handle the few AoE encounters really smoothly too. Sustain is beautiful.

Stamina Nightblade
Very efficient at dealing with low hp adds with surprise attack and steel tornado, but the resource penalty for using these abilities seems to outweigh their usefulness at times. I feel like this class, despite its many strengths, does some of the worst sustained damage, and has the worst resource management inside of VMA only behind Stamina Sorcerer. Next patch however, I fully expect stamina sorcerer to out dps stamina nightblade on boss fights.

I have played all of these at a level placing me on every leaderboard as first on my platform, and I can easily say that stamina nightblade is the second worst class for the arena next to stamina sorcerer.

Regarding trials, what many players on the forums do not understand is that these strengths that stamina nightblades ever had at least in VMA, are not unique passives or buffs inside of trials. The tank applies major fracture, the healer applies minor berserk etc. Surprise Attack is worse sustained dps than flurry, and is only furthered by the strength of VMA weapons. Dark Brotherhood will make Stamina Nightblades the lowest dps in group content by a significant margin.

Obviously Stamina Nightblades have a controversial status in our PvP community. Despite this, it is absolutely necessary to buff them in PvE trial and solo content without causing further imbalance in PvP. @Wrobel, these changes have been made already in previous iterations of eso with abilities such as Negate Magic and Ambush having their stuns removed from PvP. Why should this change be any different?

A way this could be implemented without increasing their burst dps could be as simple as increasing the damage of surprise attack by 6%/12%/18% after three consecutive casts for (5?) Seconds (without being dispelled by weaves) as a stacking buff. This kind of buff would be only active in PvE zones, and would not proc on player characters.