@ ZOS, when will Magicka Sorcerers be untied from Destruction Staves?

Grao

So, context:

Every class has Magicka abilities they can spam to do direct magic damage. Every class except Sorcerers.
At the same time every Stamina Build has at least 8 different abilities they can choose from to spam and do damage (morphs for all 4 possible stamina weapons)

There is only 1 Magicka weapon, Destruction Staves and this weapon has 1 skill that fall into this requirement for any PvE build, Force Shock that morphs into Force Pulse and Crushing Shock.

Why is that Sorcerers are the only Magicka class that is forced into this choice? All the other Magicka build have alternatives for this, we don't. Our one alternative we had started using, Trapping Webs was now converted to a Stamina Ability, so...

Here is my question again @ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_JessicaFolsom, @Wrobel... When will you follow up in the premise of this game that can play as you want for the sorcerer class? Right now Magicka Sorcerers are pretty cornered, our builds have to include and be based upon Crushing Shock / Force Pulse, we have no other choice, I hope you see that. We can't ever use other weapons as our main weapons because we require Force Pulse to be viable as Magicka DPS.

I am not even going into our current DPS issues... We have 1 skill, 2 morphs upon which to build any Magicka Sorcerer Build. How can that, in any way, conduce to 'play as we want?'

nordsavage

Why would you not want to use blockade and force shock or morphs. Even a smart magicka NB weaves on Funnel.

FriedEggSandwich

But there are 3 different types of destro staff. It's a bit like saying when will stam builds be untied from melee weapons. Heavy attacks are spammable and free, return magicka and do anywhere from 5-10k instant damage. Put one in between every skill and you don't need a spammable dps skill. Sorcs are kings of burst, embrace it.

I'm being controversial I know but I see a lot of players demanding a spammable dps skill but I genuinely don't see the need in pvp. Sustained dps and high burst? It's got to be one or the other surely?

I would rather zos work out how to separate pvp and pve so tweaks to skills for one crowd don't negatively imapct the other crowd.

Grao

nordsavage wrote: »

Why would you not want to use blockade and force shock or morphs. Even a smart magicka NB weaves on Funnel.

I have nothing against Blockade and the other abilities in the Destruction Staff line, my problem is that while other magicka classes have different choices and can for instance main weapon dual wield swords for the added Spell Power, sorcerers are always stuck with Destro Stave as their main weapon. Besides, our class has an ultimate that works by replacing your weapon, while that ultimate is active we can't use weapon abilities, so we are not able to weave our main damage ability with our empowered light attacks, which is why as a long use ult, Overload is actually a loss of DPS. Sorcerers are simply too tied to their Destro Stave.

Would I still use a destro stave in my back bar? Yes, because of Unstable wall of Elements and because of Elemental Drain, but if I had a choice of main attack that was not Force Pulse and that was also viable as some of the other abilities avaliable to other classes indeed are, I would likely pick that, specially as having more sorcerer abilities in my bar also contributes to increasing our Spell Power (thanks to one of our passives).

Other classes have this choice, why sorcerers don't?

imenace

i loved dw sorc with det so much.. why did they have to change it destro is so boring

Rilmarshim

Two words:
Crystal
Shard

Grao

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

But there are 3 different types of destro staff. It's a bit like saying when will stam builds be untied from melee weapons. Heavy attacks are spammable and free, return magicka and do anywhere from 5-10k instant damage. Put one in between every skill and you don't need a spammable dps skill. Sorcs are kings of burst, embrace it.

I'm being controversial I know but I see a lot of players demanding a spammable dps skill but I genuinely don't see the need in pvp. Sustained dps and high burst? It's got to be one or the other surely?

I would rather zos work out how to separate pvp and pve so tweaks to skills for one crowd don't negatively imapct the other crowd.

I am sorry, when it concerns end game PvE there is one elemental staff only and that is Fire. Lightning is still horrible for light attack weaving as it gets stuck in heavy attack mode at random times and the bonus from Ice is pretty much useless in PvE boss fights.

Sorcerers are the king of burst damage and that may be great for PVP< it is so good in PvP the class is often nerfed because of PvP complains. Where does that leave sorcerers in PvE though? No one from ZoS told sorcerers two years back that sorcerers would only ever bee good for burst and that even that would be constantly nerfed because of PvP complains. Where those two years of effort go now that the class is ruined for PvE?

Besides, ZoS has said again and again and again that ESO is supposed to be about 'play as you want', they said it so many times it got tiresome to hear it... Well, I want to play my magicka sorcerer with a main weapon that is not a staff...

Grao

Dr_Talos wrote: »

Two words:
Crystal
Shard

Two words back to you: Cast time.

FriedEggSandwich

Grao wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

But there are 3 different types of destro staff. It's a bit like saying when will stam builds be untied from melee weapons. Heavy attacks are spammable and free, return magicka and do anywhere from 5-10k instant damage. Put one in between every skill and you don't need a spammable dps skill. Sorcs are kings of burst, embrace it.

I'm being controversial I know but I see a lot of players demanding a spammable dps skill but I genuinely don't see the need in pvp. Sustained dps and high burst? It's got to be one or the other surely?

I would rather zos work out how to separate pvp and pve so tweaks to skills for one crowd don't negatively imapct the other crowd.

I am sorry, when it concerns end game PvE there is one elemental staff only and that is Fire. Lightning is still horrible for light attack weaving as it gets stuck in heavy attack mode at random times and the bonus from Ice is pretty much useless in PvE boss fights.

Sorcerers are the king of burst damage and that may be great for PVP< it is so good in PvP the class is often nerfed because of PvP complains. Where does that leave sorcerers in PvE though? No one from ZoS told sorcerers two years back that sorcerers would only ever bee good for burst and that even that would be constantly nerfed because of PvP complains. Where those two years of effort go now that the class is ruined for PvE?

Besides, ZoS has said again and again and again that ESO is supposed to be about 'play as you want', they said it so many times it got tiresome to hear it... Well, I want to play my magicka sorcerer with a main weapon that is not a staff...

I don't wanna deny pve'rs anything, which is why I included the last paragraph.

Grao

imenace wrote: »

i loved dw sorc with det so much.. why did they have to change it destro is so boring

Join the band wagon. I want to play a melee ranged, light armor sorcerer, very glass cannon fighting beside his faithful Twilight Tormentor...

Grao

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

But there are 3 different types of destro staff. It's a bit like saying when will stam builds be untied from melee weapons. Heavy attacks are spammable and free, return magicka and do anywhere from 5-10k instant damage. Put one in between every skill and you don't need a spammable dps skill. Sorcs are kings of burst, embrace it.

I'm being controversial I know but I see a lot of players demanding a spammable dps skill but I genuinely don't see the need in pvp. Sustained dps and high burst? It's got to be one or the other surely?

I would rather zos work out how to separate pvp and pve so tweaks to skills for one crowd don't negatively imapct the other crowd.

I am sorry, when it concerns end game PvE there is one elemental staff only and that is Fire. Lightning is still horrible for light attack weaving as it gets stuck in heavy attack mode at random times and the bonus from Ice is pretty much useless in PvE boss fights.

Sorcerers are the king of burst damage and that may be great for PVP< it is so good in PvP the class is often nerfed because of PvP complains. Where does that leave sorcerers in PvE though? No one from ZoS told sorcerers two years back that sorcerers would only ever bee good for burst and that even that would be constantly nerfed because of PvP complains. Where those two years of effort go now that the class is ruined for PvE?

Besides, ZoS has said again and again and again that ESO is supposed to be about 'play as you want', they said it so many times it got tiresome to hear it... Well, I want to play my magicka sorcerer with a main weapon that is not a staff...

I don't wanna deny pve'rs anything, which is why I included the last paragraph.

Yes, but they are not going to do that because it would add even more stress to their Serves and those pure hamsters keeping things powered!

Giving us a spammable ability that does direct single target damage would allow them to increase our DPS to the same level of the other Magicka builds, would promote build diversity, which according to them is very important and would not affect PvP so greatly as sustained damage is not what really matters in PvP, but burst.

I understand that conceptually Sorcerers were meant to have enough of a high burst that such spammable ability shouldn't be needed, but because this is not an alternative easily accomplished by Zenimax, changing one skill to be this... Seems like a more viable approach. Magicka Sorcerers really need a ray of hope.

XaXa

Got so sick of running a destro sorc I decided to do the unthinkable and ran Stam Sorc just to get something different.

I feel ZOS has really shot themselves in the foot with this "Play how you want" BS.
they clearly had the game set up with DK=Tank, Temp=Healer, NB=Stam DPS, Sorc= Magicka DPS.

But since they decided to go with this play how you want nonsense the classes have become a mess. We now have DPS that have access to the best heal in the game. DPS that are basically Tanks but still putting out insane numbers.

I get that "Play how you want" has become a major part of ESO. It looks great on paper but It just doesn't work. If they really want to truly balance this game then I truthfully feel that ZOS needs to grow a pair, put their foot down, and revoke that nonsense. Other MMOS have more defined roles for a reason. If your class has access to the best heal in the game then you should be severely handicap when trying to DPS because obviously your class is a healer.

ZOS needs to revoke this garbage ideology, Make Tanks and Healers USEFULL. don't just make everyone a DPS.

If you want to be DPS. Roll DPS. If you want to Heal. Roll a Heal. If you want to tank Roll a Tank.

(Not trying to hate on Templars. just the easiest example that came to mind)


Really needed to get that rant out....

dsalter

XaXa wrote: »

But since they decided to go with this play how you want nonsense the classes have become a mess. We now have DPS that have access to the best heal in the game. DPS that are basically Tanks but still putting out insane numbers.

you can thank a combination of CP and no soft caps for this one.

XaXa

dsalter wrote: »

XaXa wrote: »

But since they decided to go with this play how you want nonsense the classes have become a mess. We now have DPS that have access to the best heal in the game. DPS that are basically Tanks but still putting out insane numbers.

you can thank a combination of CP and no soft caps for this one.

True. but that's also a rant for another day -.-

FriedEggSandwich

Grao wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

But there are 3 different types of destro staff. It's a bit like saying when will stam builds be untied from melee weapons. Heavy attacks are spammable and free, return magicka and do anywhere from 5-10k instant damage. Put one in between every skill and you don't need a spammable dps skill. Sorcs are kings of burst, embrace it.

I'm being controversial I know but I see a lot of players demanding a spammable dps skill but I genuinely don't see the need in pvp. Sustained dps and high burst? It's got to be one or the other surely?

I would rather zos work out how to separate pvp and pve so tweaks to skills for one crowd don't negatively imapct the other crowd.

I am sorry, when it concerns end game PvE there is one elemental staff only and that is Fire. Lightning is still horrible for light attack weaving as it gets stuck in heavy attack mode at random times and the bonus from Ice is pretty much useless in PvE boss fights.

Sorcerers are the king of burst damage and that may be great for PVP< it is so good in PvP the class is often nerfed because of PvP complains. Where does that leave sorcerers in PvE though? No one from ZoS told sorcerers two years back that sorcerers would only ever bee good for burst and that even that would be constantly nerfed because of PvP complains. Where those two years of effort go now that the class is ruined for PvE?

Besides, ZoS has said again and again and again that ESO is supposed to be about 'play as you want', they said it so many times it got tiresome to hear it... Well, I want to play my magicka sorcerer with a main weapon that is not a staff...

I don't wanna deny pve'rs anything, which is why I included the last paragraph.

Yes, but they are not going to do that because it would add even more stress to their Serves and those pure hamsters keeping things powered!

Giving us a spammable ability that does direct single target damage would allow them to increase our DPS to the same level of the other Magicka builds, would promote build diversity, which according to them is very important and would not affect PvP so greatly as sustained damage is not what really matters in PvP, but burst.

I understand that conceptually Sorcerers were meant to have enough of a high burst that such spammable ability shouldn't be needed, but because this is not an alternative easily accomplished by Zenimax, changing one skill to be this... Seems like a more viable approach. Magicka Sorcerers really need a ray of hope.

I don't think it would. Battle Spirit is already in place and alters your hp, damage and healing, and your shields. I don't believe it would require much work or stress on the server to extend its functionality to alter individual skills for pvp. The requirements for pvp are so different from the requirements of pve that I'm honestly surprised that pvpers and pvers haven't fallen out more. We fight from opposite ends for skill functionality with only our own playstyles in mind. Making battle spirit more robust and all encompassing would be a great solution for all.

On topic; if sorcs get a spammable dps skill it shouldn't come from the sorc skill lines imo. I was fine with the idea of trapping webs being used for this purpose. Why? Cos it was costly and not all that effective. In pvp if you choose to buff your spell damage by ~700 by wielding 2 swords instead of a staff then you should have to give up some spammable damage.

Minalan

Grao wrote: »

Magicka Sorcerers really need a ray of hope.

You're a glutton for disappointment aren't you? I'm kidding, it shouldn't be like that. But it sort of is (Wrobel).

You can get close enough damage with a maelstrom destro staff that you can with two swords, but dual wield gets the extra gear set piece bonus and the 5% passive.

All they need to do is revamp a few passives of ours, add a few percent spell damage to the useless ones and we're amazing again. Nightblades shouldn't be walking around with THAT much more spell power than a sorc, but they do regularly. Because they get better PASSIVES.

XaXa

I posted something similar in the Stam Sorc thread but I will leave the magicka version here.

For the next PTS incremental my psychic visions see.

"Dark Deal: Changed this morph so that casting it charges 6000 crowns to your account, rerolls you to a night blade, and gives you a lifetime ban from the game."

A little developer note underneath will read:

"Keep complaining... See what happens"

Grao

XaXa wrote: »

Got so sick of running a destro sorc I decided to do the unthinkable and ran Stam Sorc just to get something different.

I feel ZOS has really shot themselves in the foot with this "Play how you want" BS.
they clearly had the game set up with DK=Tank, Temp=Healer, NB=Stam DPS, Sorc= Magicka DPS.

But since they decided to go with this play how you want nonsense the classes have become a mess. We now have DPS that have access to the best heal in the game. DPS that are basically Tanks but still putting out insane numbers.

I get that "Play how you want" has become a major part of ESO. It looks great on paper but It just doesn't work. If they really want to truly balance this game then I truthfully feel that ZOS needs to grow a pair, put their foot down, and revoke that nonsense. Other MMOS have more defined roles for a reason. If your class has access to the best heal in the game then you should be severely handicap when trying to DPS because obviously your class is a healer.

ZOS needs to revoke this garbage ideology, Make Tanks and Healers USEFULL. don't just make everyone a DPS.

If you want to be DPS. Roll DPS. If you want to Heal. Roll a Heal. If you want to tank Roll a Tank.

(Not trying to hate on Templars. just the easiest example that came to mind)


Really needed to get that rant out....

Hey, I completely agree, I was very much against changes that supposedly made every class great at everything. MMOs are not supposed to be about 'Play how you want', they are supposed to be about 'Play how it works'.

Alas, ZoS has made the mess they made and we need to live with it. I want my damn Magicka Sorcerer to be viable, currently we have almost no choices build wise and our DPS is the lowest of all the classes.

At the same time ZOS can't buff our current damage skills because they are part of the burst combo used in PvP to instantly kill people that are not paying attention. Can't buff Crystal Fragments, can't buff (they actually nerfed) Daedric Curse, Can't buff Mage's Wrath... We need a new skill that won't affect PvP so badly and that can be nerfed and buffed more easily to put the Sorcerer Magicka DPS in the same level as the other classes.

Grao

Minalan wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Magicka Sorcerers really need a ray of hope.

You're a glutton for disappointment aren't you? I'm kidding, it shouldn't be like that. But it sort of is (Wrobel).

You can get close enough damage with a maelstrom destro staff that you can with two swords, but dual wield gets the extra gear set piece bonus and the 5% passive.

All they need to do is revamp a few passives of ours, add a few percent spell damage to the useless ones and we're amazing again. Nightblades shouldn't be walking around with THAT much more spell power than a sorc, but they do regularly. Because they get better PASSIVES.

Again, the problem of heavily buffing our base stats such as Magicka and Spell Power is that it will affect Burst DPS in PvP, which ZoS won't do. They won't make sorcerer's burst in PvP better, they can't otherwise the tears will flood.

So we need a skill that does damage despite our lower spell power numbers XD

Grao

XaXa wrote: »

I posted something similar in the Stam Sorc thread but I will leave the magicka version here.

For the next PTS incremental my psychic visions see.

"Dark Deal: Changed this morph so that casting it charges 6000 crowns to your account, rerolls you to a night blade, and gives you a lifetime ban from the game."

A little developer note underneath will read:

"Keep complaining... See what happens"

You deserved a nice LOL for that one. But yeah... Dark Exchange, worse skill in the game and yet they just wont redesign the damn thing to actually be useful >.>

It is so frustrating.

XaXa

Grao wrote: »

XaXa wrote: »

I posted something similar in the Stam Sorc thread but I will leave the magicka version here.

For the next PTS incremental my psychic visions see.

"Dark Deal: Changed this morph so that casting it charges 6000 crowns to your account, rerolls you to a night blade, and gives you a lifetime ban from the game."

A little developer note underneath will read:

"Keep complaining... See what happens"

You deserved a nice LOL for that one. But yeah... Dark Exchange, worse skill in the game and yet they just wont redesign the damn thing to actually be useful >.>

It is so frustrating.

Dark deal: Meh returns, long cast time, interruptible...

BoL; Strongest heal, able to animation cancel, not interruptible...

Combat Team be like...

(Side note this picture can be used on ANY forum thread. I promise)

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO

XaXa wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

XaXa wrote: »

I posted something similar in the Stam Sorc thread but I will leave the magicka version here.

For the next PTS incremental my psychic visions see.

"Dark Deal: Changed this morph so that casting it charges 6000 crowns to your account, rerolls you to a night blade, and gives you a lifetime ban from the game."

A little developer note underneath will read:

"Keep complaining... See what happens"

You deserved a nice LOL for that one. But yeah... Dark Exchange, worse skill in the game and yet they just wont redesign the damn thing to actually be useful >.>

It is so frustrating.

Dark deal: Meh returns, long cast time, interruptible...

BoL; Strongest heal, able to animation cancel, not interruptible...

Combat Team be like...

(Side note this picture can be used on ANY forum thread. I promise)

I completely agree, they just don't have any idea what they're doing and I've pretty much given up on them ever fixing things. They'd need to hire actually talented devs for that, but I guess they'll cost more than the people they got atm.

lassitershawn

If we are just talking PvE here, even if we had a spam DPS move you would still have to run a staff on the main bar for competitive DPS because of weaving and Elemental Blockade, an amazing DoT. Other classes (which have spams) with the possible exception of templar also run at least one staff because of this. I'm actually going to be switching to dual staff on my sorcerer soon and I'm pretty sure it is going to get more DPS. Wouldn't mind a spam not tied to destruction staff, but I would still run one for PvE and PvP.

Grao

lassitershawn wrote: »

If we are just talking PvE here, even if we had a spam DPS move you would still have to run a staff on the main bar for competitive DPS because of weaving and Elemental Blockade, an amazing DoT. Other classes (which have spams) with the possible exception of templar also run at least one staff because of this. I'm actually going to be switching to dual staff on my sorcerer soon and I'm pretty sure it is going to get more DPS. Wouldn't mind a spam not tied to destruction staff, but I would still run one for PvE and PvP.

Running a staff doesn't mean having to run it as your main weapon. If we had a spammable ability it could be used to compensate the magicka sorcerer current low DPS compared to other classes. Yes, I know the reason we have less damage is because we have less DoTs than other classes, but giving us more DoTs is not a reasonable proposition first because we are still tied to too many Toggle abilities, thus we don't have the same space available in our bars as other classes, second because extra DoTs for sorcerer would increase sorcerer power in PvP which ZOS will not allow for.

A sustained spammable ability would not affect PVP nearly as much and the values could be played with until sorcerer DPS was actually in par with other magicka DPS. To top that having a morph melee and one ranged would give sorcerers a whole different play style to build around which currently we can't use as we are tied to Destruction staff for our main ability.

Another point, replacing our main attack by a sorcerer skill would increase all our abilities DPS by adding 1% extra spell damage. It would also become possible and beneficial to use Overload in extended fight situations as we would have a spammable ability to weave with the empowered light attacks, something we currently lack and that lowers considerably the potential DPS of Overload, our best damage ultimate.

So yes, we would still use a Destro staff in our back bar for AoEs, AoE DoTs and debuffs, but we wouldn't be using it for light or heavy attacking necessarily! And that is a big deal because it means you wouldn't need to use a Fire Staff for instance. We could finally use lightening, meaning all our AoEs and DoTs from the Destruction Staff line would be Sock damage, thus benefiting of our Storm Calling passives. I hope you see my point.

Anti_Virus

@Grao

Well look on the bright side at least you have a ranged weapon with a spamable dps skill(force pulse) Archers have no spamable dps skill and the bow is the only ranged stamina option atm.

but I see your point this game seems to be elder melee online(weather it's physical or magical damage) and ranged casters/archers are left under the bus.

The sorc class is the only class that has ranged dps in their skill line the other three are melee based, and yet its lacking.

Grao

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

@Grao

Well look on the bright side at least you have a ranged weapon with a spamable dps skill(force pulse) Archers have no spamable dps skill and the bow is the only ranged stamina option atm.

but I see your point this game seems to be elder melee online(weather it's physical or magical damage) and ranged casters/archers are left under the bus.

The sorc class is the only class that has ranged dps in their skill line the other three are melee based, and yet its lacking.

As a bowman in RL I agree, bows need some serious buffing. But yes, sorcerers need to get untied from those damned staves as our main weapons, as it is we are precluded from playing a melee magicka sorcerer and our DPS is too damn low.

ManDraKE

Grao wrote: »

Dr_Talos wrote: »

Two words:
Crystal
Shard

Two words back to you: Cast time.

1 word: noob.

Proc your frags, dear god.

Valrien

ManDraKE wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Dr_Talos wrote: »

Two words:
Crystal
Shard

Two words back to you: Cast time.

1 word: noob.

Proc your frags, dear god.

What will you proc it with without a destro staff? Do you expect me to spam curse on a boss?

Khaos_Bane

Dr_Talos wrote: »

Two words:
Crystal
Shard

Two Words

@Dr_Talos noob

Grao

Valrien wrote: »

ManDraKE wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Dr_Talos wrote: »

Two words:
Crystal
Shard

Two words back to you: Cast time.

1 word: noob.

Proc your frags, dear god.

What will you proc it with without a destro staff? Do you expect me to spam curse on a boss?

He is just a troll, not worth of feeding ^^

AhPook_Is_Here

Grao wrote: »

So, context:

Every class has Magicka abilities they can spam to do direct magic damage. Every class except Sorcerers.
At the same time every Stamina Build has at least 8 different abilities they can choose from to spam and do damage (morphs for all 4 possible stamina weapons)

There is only 1 Magicka weapon, Destruction Staves and this weapon has 1 skill that fall into this requirement for any PvE build, Force Shock that morphs into Force Pulse and Crushing Shock.

Why is that Sorcerers are the only Magicka class that is forced into this choice? All the other Magicka build have alternatives for this, we don't. Our one alternative we had started using, Trapping Webs was now converted to a Stamina Ability, so...

Here is my question again @ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_JessicaFolsom, @Wrobel... When will you follow up in the premise of this game that can play as you want for the sorcerer class? Right now Magicka Sorcerers are pretty cornered, our builds have to include and be based upon Crushing Shock / Force Pulse, we have no other choice, I hope you see that. We can't ever use other weapons as our main weapons because we require Force Pulse to be viable as Magicka DPS.

I am not even going into our current DPS issues... We have 1 skill, 2 morphs upon which to build any Magicka Sorcerer Build. How can that, in any way, conduce to 'play as we want?'

I think a nice baby step would be ditch blast and make it a sta equivalent of fragment, make both morphs proc off of magicka attacks, stamina attacks or weapon attacks. Then you could get pretty constant procs and it would be a dd, even if dependent on other actions to activate.