Defensive Posture and it's morphs.

AhPook_Is_Here

Maybe it is time to bring this ability in line with other spell immunity/reflect abilities and lower it's duration to 6 seconds. This is most certainly a type of shield and active defense. Right now on my DK I always have it up, 100% of the time and usually on top of scale (who's bug I am glad you are addressing). However in the spirit of reactive game-play and skill timing, 30 seconds is just way too long, even 6 seconds is a bit long but a nice normalization for defensive barriers.

Flaminir

Given it only reflects a single projectile I think a longer duration than scales is appropriate.

It serves an entirely different function to scales, which re to be timed and used in the midst of the heat of battle. Defensive posture is basically an anti-gank ability such as defensive rune from the sorc lines... .longer duration... single use.

Take it down to 6 seconds and the whole purpose of the skill is gone.

And its not a shield at all so shouldn't be classed as such for the 6 seconds rule.

Gottbeard

Disagree, its a one projectile reflect. Leave it alone. It is reactive if you want to pick out a specific projectile. If you do put a 6 second cool down on it then it better cost like 200 stamina to cast.

Personofsecrets

lets nerf tanks again, good idea.

Silver_Strider

Too many projectiles, not enough reflects.

Calling Defensive Posture a Damage shield is so far from the truth that it's laughable. It reflects all of 1 projectile move so at best it stops 1 attack from connecting, and considering that most of those skills are pretty spammable (I'm looking at you Swallow Soul spamming NBs) lowing the duration of this skill that doesn't even last its full duration in any fight is utterly pointless.

AhPook_Is_Here

It is a damage shield though. It has a 100% chance to reduce one projectile spell ability to 0 damage and depending on the morphs to either absorb and heal you for a value or reflect the full damage back in addition to a stun. I wouldn't discount the value of this ability against an 18k critting frag or a 4k sp/wp overload light attack, in the case of absorbing that attack it is the BEST damage shield in the game. The stun is great CC, the healing morph is somewhat useless, the bock damage reduction passive is amazing, and makes it a must have on one bar for any tank.

With a 6 second duration I see much more challenging, interesting, and immersive game play. Instead of just having it up 100% of the time, one would actually use the ability actively when seeing a bad sorc hard casting a frag or a dungeon mob powering up some DD spell.

Understand too that if this isn't changed to 6 seconds it is going to sit on top of every bone shield and every annulment and every sorc ward as a mainstay of CC and mitigation. I know I will fully exploit this mechanic to my advantage, and will still be able to turn out crazy damage in cyrodiil with a S/b build.

Kas

imho the skill isn't designed too well.
it is incredibly strong in duels or when fighting in larger numbers vs fewer enemies.

likewise, it significantly loses potential when facing many enemies.

that aside, i think it's well balanced. it's strong for its use and certainly not a must-have in all siutations. sadly, its niche is not a sexy one (duels aside, which are damn sexy ofc )

Saturn

Personofsecrets wrote: »

lets nerf tanks again, good idea.

Tanks aren't getting nerfed, lol. People who think that obviously have no clue what they are doing.

code65536

What an idiotic idea.

If you want to reduce it to 6 seconds, fine. Then make it reflect everything during those 6 seconds. Oh wait. Is that a bit too much? Then keep the duration as it is.

RoyJade

For a lot of build, using a s/b in pvp isn't good. Most stam build need a bow and take two weapon (especially NB/stamplar with their spammable abilities) or a two handed weapon (for reverse slice, rush, wrecking blow and of course rally). Most mag build use a restro staff and a destro or two sword, or only a s/b for block reduction because they need mitigation (templar/DK most of the time). Only a few dps build use s/b efficiently, and they don't need a nerf.
And if you have some problem with this situational skill, just use a destro/restro staff and one light attack before anything else, even while spamming defensive posture you can't reflect both a weaved LA and a fast projectile.

Teridaxus

In that case, ward should only absorb one attack each cast^^

Jade1986

Personofsecrets wrote: »

lets nerf tanks again, good idea.

Lol. Clearly SnB is too stronk!!!!

WillhelmBlack

Why? Why ask for nerfs of something so unimportant, right after its been nerfed anyway?! It's getting a bigger nerf in DB! Get a grip! I loved this skill before TG, I still use it now as it's a form of DPS for my defensive bar and helps me block in my 5 light. I almost gave it up in TG but I managed to find its uses still. Next update it's gone, replaced with Harness Magicka, in fact Sword and Board on any magicka build other than NB is just a waste of time.

SoulScream

I see your point but I actually really dislike constantly refreshing skills. I would like more skills to last longer not shorten them.

Hadan_of_Rift

Saturn wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

lets nerf tanks again, good idea.

Tanks aren't getting nerfed, lol. People who think that obviously have no clue what they are doing.

You are the very first person I have seen that doesn't think tanks are getting nerfed. However, there is a ton of math and people that clearly show tanks are getting nerfed, so many it's more your understanding of math rather than a lot other people's understanding of what they are doing?

FriedEggSandwich

Flaminir wrote: »

Given it only reflects a single projectile I think a longer duration than scales is appropriate.

It serves an entirely different function to scales, which re to be timed and used in the midst of the heat of battle. Defensive posture is basically an anti-gank ability such as defensive rune from the sorc lines... .longer duration... single use.

Take it down to 6 seconds and the whole purpose of the skill is gone.

And its not a shield at all so shouldn't be classed as such for the 6 seconds rule.

Agree. I don't use the skill but it has most in common with defensive rune, the duration of which approaches 1 minute. The one use per cast justifies the duration imo.

AhPook_Is_Here

As a DK tank you can refresh as many as 3 skills on 20 second timers, of course you don't need to for most of the content in this game, but if you were running optimally for survival and nothing else you would keep those 3 buffs up always, excluding defensive posture. That leaves you about 15 seconds per rotation to use taunts, posture, weave attacks, interrupts, synergies and so on.

I'm not a huge fan of chasing buffs either but I really think posture should be a reactive skill the same way scale is. Of course scale is better in some ways, and was really OP when you could tie its reflections to the stun from posture, it lasts 4 seconds, compared to posture which should be 6 seconds, and has no stun.

I don't think it's really a nerf so much as a style change, it doesn't seem right to me that someone can toss this up and run around for 30 seconds not even thinking about it.

Justice31st

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

Maybe it is time to bring this ability in line with other spell immunity/reflect abilities and lower it's duration to 6 seconds. This is most certainly a type of shield and active defense. Right now on my DK I always have it up, 100% of the time and usually on top of scale (who's bug I am glad you are addressing). However in the spirit of reactive game-play and skill timing, 30 seconds is just way too long, even 6 seconds is a bit long but a nice normalization for defensive barriers. [/quote]

You're joking right?

Rudyard

Well, using similar logic, you could also make the argument that reflective scales should only reflect 1 attack.

Curragraigue

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

It is a damage shield though. It has a 100% chance to reduce one projectile spell ability to 0 damage and depending on the morphs to either absorb and heal you for a value or reflect the full damage back in addition to a stun. I wouldn't discount the value of this ability against an 18k critting frag or a 4k sp/wp overload light attack, in the case of absorbing that attack it is the BEST damage shield in the game. The stun is great CC, the healing morph is somewhat useless, the bock damage reduction passive is amazing, and makes it a must have on one bar for any tank.

With a 6 second duration I see much more challenging, interesting, and immersive game play. Instead of just having it up 100% of the time, one would actually use the ability actively when seeing a bad sorc hard casting a frag or a dungeon mob powering up some DD spell.

Understand too that if this isn't changed to 6 seconds it is going to sit on top of every bone shield and every annulment and every sorc ward as a mainstay of CC and mitigation. I know I will fully exploit this mechanic to my advantage, and will still be able to turn out crazy damage in cyrodiil with a S/b build.

A shield defends all damage posture absorbs or reflects projectiles only, not a shield.

KenaPKK

By your logic, Shuffle is a damage shield too. It reduces damage taken from some attacks to 0 in a similar manner.

I agree, reduce the duration of Shuffle to 6s.

KenaPKK

In all seriousness OP, I see where you're coming from. I agree that nerfing the duration of Defensive Posture to 6s would focus the skill's use to reacting to projectiles without degrading it's overall usefulness at all.

However, it's a one projectile reflect, and its stun can be blocked. It's hardly in need of any nerf and shouldn't be ZOS's priority over moves like radiant, bombard, flare, and balancing the damage type changes coming in DB. I'm looking at you, Incap Strike.

Scales has a shorter duration because it blocks 4 projectiles. This allows it to be used defensively, just keeping it up periodically to block a bunch of stuff, whereas you have to aim to reflect certain projectiles with Posture, else you run a high chance of snagging a simple light attack.

Curragraigue

KenaPKK wrote: »

By your logic, Shuffle is a damage shield too. It reduces damage taken from some attacks to 0 in a similar manner.

I agree, reduce the duration of Shuffle to 6s.

Not sure if you are responding to me or the OP but shuffle has a percentage chance of avoiding damage it isn't like a shield or posture.

nordsavage

Clearly a bad idea from someone who clearly does not tank.

Saturn

Hadan_of_Rift wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

lets nerf tanks again, good idea.

Tanks aren't getting nerfed, lol. People who think that obviously have no clue what they are doing.

You are the very first person I have seen that doesn't think tanks are getting nerfed. However, there is a ton of math and people that clearly show tanks are getting nerfed, so many it's more your understanding of math rather than a lot other people's understanding of what they are doing?

There is a ton of math that shows that everything is a buff. Just take a look at what @Asayre has done. Plus 250% increase to constitution is ridiculously good and with the Champion point change you can put points into hardy and elemental defender, as well as shield expertise, meaning you get even tankier. If you can't tell tanks are getting buffed, then you haven't tested out the changes.

code65536

@Saturn

Uh, did you look at Asayre's graphs? Because they don't support Wrobel's rosy outlook and instead show that in more typical situations--not extreme 7H + max-reduction scenarios--there is a greater tradeoff. This is what we would expect since cost reductions have diminishing returns, so on the extreme end of the scale, the marginal loss is less, which makes Wrobel's math look favorable. But in more typical builds, the marginal difference is greater and thus the changes are not favorable.

Second, the CP changes are horrible for people who swap between tanking and DPS. Yes, it gives us more red points to be tankier. Yippee? The amount of mitigation that we currently have is already enough. Why do I want more mitigation if I'm already surviving? When I die, it's not because I have too little mitigation. It's when I run out of stam to block or to roll out of Vashai's negate. When I fail as a tank, it's when I run out of resources. Why in bloody blazes do I want more mitigation when I already have enough and when the bottleneck to tanking is resources? Yes, Constitution's buff is nice, but what is the point of having that buff when all of it is expended to compensate for all the resource nerfs elsewhere (and in some important scenarios, it's not even enough to compensate).

At best, tanking is going to stay around the same place, after some expensive and annoying adjustments. At worst, it's getting nerfed. So tell me again, why shouldn't our bitterness at this change be warranted?

AhPook_Is_Here

Rudyard wrote: »

Well, using similar logic, you could also make the argument that reflective scales should only reflect 1 attack.

I don't see the relation, scales is scales, it's a class ability, not a weapon ability. It has a shorter duration as well. Anyway I'm really just talking about defensive posture and morphs.

KenaPKK wrote: »

By your logic, Shuffle is a damage shield too. It reduces damage taken from some attacks to 0 in a similar manner.

I agree, reduce the duration of Shuffle to 6s.

I'm guessing you are being factious, I wouldn't make that argument because shuffle only has a chance at reducing the damage of one attack to 0 where defensive posture will always reduce the damage of one magical projectile attack to 0 and either reflect the attack or heal the target. A 6 seconds shuffle wouldn't make sense because you might not even dodge one of say 5 light attacks inside that duration. One might make an argument that over a long enough average time without blocking shuffle can reduce your net damage taken by 20% but the circumstance and rate of that damage make that kind of statement meaningless.

Defensive posture is a type of shield, the question really is does it merit the same treatment of other shields or is it an exception.

Minno

code65536 wrote: »

@Saturn

Uh, did you look at Asayre's graphs? Because they don't support Wrobel's rosy outlook and instead show that in more typical situations--not extreme 7H + max-reduction scenarios--there is a greater tradeoff. This is what we would expect since cost reductions have diminishing returns, so on the extreme end of the scale, the marginal loss is less, which makes Wrobel's math look favorable. But in more typical builds, the marginal difference is greater and thus the changes are not favorable.

Second, the CP changes are horrible for people who swap between tanking and DPS. Yes, it gives us more red points to be tankier. Yippee? The amount of mitigation that we currently have is already enough. Why do I want more mitigation if I'm already surviving? When I die, it's not because I have too little mitigation. It's when I run out of stam to block or to roll out of Vashai's negate. When I fail as a tank, it's when I run out of resources. Why in bloody blazes do I want more mitigation when I already have enough and when the bottleneck to tanking is resources? Yes, Constitution's buff is nice, but what is the point of having that buff when all of it is expended to compensate for all the resource nerfs elsewhere (and in some important scenarios, it's not even enough to compensate).

At best, tanking is going to stay around the same place, after some expensive and annoying adjustments. At worst, it's getting nerfed. So tell me again, why shouldn't our bitterness at this change be warranted?

Maybe I missed something, but didn't his post say you get more block cost reduction with DB than in TG?

Edit:

This is my updated understanding:

- wrobels and asayre's equations required additional parameters to paint a full picture for tanks (due to 3 parameters rounding it out.)
- it was determined that you cant go full 7 piece armor due to 10.8% increased cost of magicka/stam abilities. Therefore 5 heavy is more realistic due to need for players to slot light/med in the other 2 slots.
- Worst case scenario, at 2 attacks per second, with 0 in Shadow Ward, 0 sturdy traits and 0 in cost reduc enchants, youll lose 200 stamina more in PTS than on live server.
- Best Case scenario, at 2 attacks per second, 100 in shadow ward, 0 sturdy pieces, 3 purple cost reduction enchants nets 50 less stamina on pts than live.

BUT the same equation was tested using sturdy traits:

- worst case scenario, at 2 attacks per second, with 0 in shadow ward, 0 cost reduc enchants you need 5 pieces of sturdy to match live stam cost for block on PTS.
- medium case scenario, at 2 attacks per second, with 100 in shadow ward, 3 purple cost reduc enchants, you need 0 sturdy AND have better stam return than on live with the pts equation.
- best case scenario, at 2 attacks per second, with 1-5pts in shadow ward, 2 purple cost reduc enchants, 1 pc sturdy trait.

Conclusion:
Therefore, sturdy plays a role in finding a balance between blocking and utilizing other roles in 5 pc heavy. requires theorycrafting for DB patch. Not doom and gloom but not rosey either.
@Asayre please correct me if im wrong with this assessment.

Personofsecrets

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

As a DK tank you can refresh as many as 3 skills on 20 second timers, of course you don't need to for most of the content in this game, but if you were running optimally for survival and nothing else you would keep those 3 buffs up always, excluding defensive posture. That leaves you about 15 seconds per rotation to use taunts, posture, weave attacks, interrupts, synergies and so on.

I'm not a huge fan of chasing buffs either but I really think posture should be a reactive skill the same way scale is. Of course scale is better in some ways, and was really OP when you could tie its reflections to the stun from posture, it lasts 4 seconds, compared to posture which should be 6 seconds, and has no stun.

I don't think it's really a nerf so much as a style change, it doesn't seem right to me that someone can toss this up and run around for 30 seconds not even thinking about it.

There is a set that benefits quite a bit from how defensive stance currently works. I don't want to say as I have gotten stuff nerfed in the past.

For the most part, yea, changing defensive wouldn't be a big deal. That being said, even if this change would only be a minor issue or a mere inconvenience, I've never been for nerfs, no matter how small, that affect me.

On a different note, there is so much insane stuff going on in Cyrodiil at this moment and that causes me not to see how the current Defensive Stance is out of balance. Even the times that I have dueled against defensive users, and that was when meteor could be reflected, I got way more butt mad about invisibility or sorc shields than defensive reflect.

code65536

Minno wrote: »

Maybe I missed something, but didn't his post say you get more block cost reduction with DB than in TG?

Only under very specific--and frankly, unrealistic--circumstances.



You see all that purple and orange? If you're wearing 5p heavy, the only place where DB comes out ahead (and only barely) is when you are running all block-cost jewelry enchants with almost all points into CP block cost reduction. And even then, only if you're taking just one hit per second.

Of course, you can add Sturdy pieces to balance that out, but for more typical tank builds (not 7H/max-permablock Wrobel builds)--you know, the kind of tank builds that Wrobel's elimination of regen was supposed to encourage--you need something like 3p of Sturdy to make things come out about the same.



But that means recrafting, refarming, re-upgrading gear, sacrificing the bonuses of the traits that we used to have. Just to get back to the same place that we were before. And for what? Some extra red points to give us mitigation that we neither need nor asked for? Plus expensive CP respecs for people who swap roles? Yea, how about "No thanks"?

The irony is that Wrobel's math comes out in favor of the DB changes only if you built your tank to be a permablocker: maxed block cost reduction in everything. The whole point of Wrobel nerfing stam regen was to penalize permablocking: if you want to permablock, then you've got to make sacrifices, and your ability to provide group utility would be hampered somewhat. Well, that's exactly the kind of build that does fine in this latest update. Whereas builds that revolve more skillful play are the ones that are getting shafted by this update.

Minno

code65536 wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Maybe I missed something, but didn't his post say you get more block cost reduction with DB than in TG?

Only under very specific--and frankly, unrealistic--circumstances.



You see all that purple and orange? If you're wearing 5p heavy, the only place where DB comes out ahead (and only barely) is when you are running all block-cost jewelry enchants with almost all points into CP block cost reduction. And even then, only if you're taking just one hit per second.

Of course, you can add Sturdy pieces to balance that out, but for more typical tank builds (not 7H/max-permablock Wrobel builds)--you know, the kind of tank builds that Wrobel's elimination of regen was supposed to encourage--you need something like 3p of Sturdy to make things come out about the same.



But that means recrafting, refarming, re-upgrading gear, sacrificing the bonuses of the traits that we used to have. Just to get back to the same place that we were before. And for what? Some extra red points to give us mitigation that we neither need nor asked for? Plus expensive CP respecs for people who swap roles? Yea, how about "No thanks"?

The irony is that Wrobel's math comes out in favor of the DB changes only if you built your tank to be a permablocker: maxed block cost reduction in everything. The whole point of Wrobel nerfing stam regen was to penalize permablocking: if you want to permablock, then you've got to make sacrifices, and your ability to provide group utility would be hampered somewhat. Well, that's exactly the kind of build that does fine in this latest update. Whereas builds that revolve more skillful play are the ones that are getting shafted by this update.

5 points in Shadow Ward, 1 piece Sturdy, 2 block cost reduction enchants and 5 heavy with defensive posture and passives gets you the same cost as live.

id say this is to punish DPS more than tanks and further drives groups to place importance on having a tank than 4 dps for pledges.

for pvp it equates to more death as a glass cannon build.