Why NB's are OP in 1 picture

PainfulFAFA

Lyar09 wrote: »

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

Lyar09 wrote: »

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

Abob wrote: »

Most op class right now is probably stamina templar, not nb.

Kinda agree with you, out of all the stam playstyles, i'd say stamplar is the easiest.. NBs have so many buffs but what good are buffs when you get rekt in 1-2 clean shots.

Stamplars on the other hand, the only class that can still "perma roll". You get a free purge, free armor buffs, and both give major mending for using it. Refreshes when you step back in.. etc.

Have you played stamplar? I'm just curious. I'm not saying that stamplar isn't strong, but I wouldn't say it is the strongest stam class. Most people who say stamplar is the easiest roll a stamplar and end up quiting it because it isn't as easy as it looks

Yes i did play one. I turned him into a magplar and all the gear went to the sorc. There are many ways to mitigate damage as a stamplar alone, and have the strongest heals in the game. StamNBs were OP, but theyve slowly added balance to other classes, and i think stamplars got the best.

edit: As soon as DB hits, thats another story but based on what i skimmed through the patch notes, Stam Nbs got the best and will most likely be the fotm.

Nobody is safe from incap strike haha I tired making this apparent but it'll go live. Instead of radiant and wb posts, there will be incap strike posts. Quote me on it

I bookmarked that incap thread coz i sensed the same thing lol.
Atm, i can just purge off NB's incap strike/soul harvest, major fractures, all that nasty stuff endlessly without problems. I can pretty much purge off at least 3 things in any class's rotation.

But again, thats all about to change. Free purge wont be free, and NBs going to be nasty again with that Incap strike disease heal debuff 50 ult BS.

KenaPKK

Eh, it's more complicated than a static list of buffs, Jules. Nightblade is the most complete of the classes, yes, but the buffs in and of themselves are not what makes nightblade op in context.

Mageblade in all of its many variations is pretty near perfectly balanced imo except for proxy + VD bombing. Those are not class skills, though. If we weren't stuck with stupid AoE caps, we wouldn't need proxy, and VD never would have been implemented. Let the proxy VD tardblades feed on the zergs and ball groups. In my opinion, it's healthy to have people out there discouraging tight grouping.

Stamblade is the troublesome one, and I agree that it is overtuned in multiple ways. Suggested balancing for stamblades which I have stood by for a long time (and I do love playing stamblade myself):
- remove penetration from Surprise Attack
- make Veiled Strike (unmorphed Concealed/SA) an assassination ability and Blur a Shadow ability so that the NB's primary dps ability does not proc the Shadow Barrier passive for free perma-resists
- keep an eye on Incap Strike. Soul Harvest doesn't feel overtuned on mageblade, and it scales with their CP. Stamblades may be over the top with the change to Incap, though

I am not of the opinion that stamblade cloaking is out of line, but I'm open to conversation about it. In my opinion, Cloak is unreliable these days with the detection methods and snares available to everyone. I haven't been using it on my nightblades since shortly after the TG patch.

Other mechanics that make stamplades frustrating to play against are not unique to the class. Stealth one shot ganking can be done by any class, and stam DK is arguably the best at it. Perma-roll dodging and Shuffle are used by all stam classes, with stamplar and stam DK arguably the primary beneficiaries since they have access to Major Mending to heal them up while they roll around.

Rune_Relic

Derra wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

MichYodias wrote: »

I agree nightblades are the most balanced and versatile class and when DB drops they could very well be the best class for stam and mag. Harness is going to make soloing on a magblade much more viable, which I think is pretty much the only current weaknesses of the class (and im not talking solo zerg dive vd prox tether bombing).

The solution here isn't to nerf nightblades but rather bring other classes up to nightblades for stam and mag. Heck maybe its time for a 4th class skill line to help make up ground (please an ice line for sorc it just makes sense and there isn't enough ice damage in game). I dont necessarily like the balance attempt zos is doing via weapon skills. I would rather the weapons compliment the classes not the other way around like it is becoming for stam builds.

Or.... 2x 3 slot weapon swappable bar (weapon skill only) + 1x 4 slot constant skill bar (utility/buff/debuff skills)
For weapon trees are supposed to be for weapon.
So if you have to choose 3/5 and only from that weapon, it forces different builds.
Class trees are supposed to be for utility.
So having a 3rd utility (non-attack) bar enables a limited selection of class/guild buffs/debuffs/utility skills
I know not everyone agrees with that.
But I see it as a way to force diversity by sacrifice.

Like CS
You could have a 1000 options.
If you can only activate all of them but only select 10 at anytime.
The possibilities are endless.

Only works for stamina builds.

Stam weapons offer nothing for mag builds and magica has only two weapon sets (of which the offensive one - destro staff - happens to be the worst weapon line in the game imo).

If the game forced me to slot three magica weapon skills i´d respec every single one of my chars to stamina.

Without magicka specific weapons yes.
In the long wrong I would like to see more than just destro/resto staff.
I would like to see a magicka or stamina based tanking weapon tree, DD tree and Heal tree.
That way we go outside the class for weapon selection but inside the class for unique utility/buffs/debuffs
etc..

MichYodias

Derra wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

MichYodias wrote: »

I agree nightblades are the most balanced and versatile class and when DB drops they could very well be the best class for stam and mag. Harness is going to make soloing on a magblade much more viable, which I think is pretty much the only current weaknesses of the class (and im not talking solo zerg dive vd prox tether bombing).

The solution here isn't to nerf nightblades but rather bring other classes up to nightblades for stam and mag. Heck maybe its time for a 4th class skill line to help make up ground (please an ice line for sorc it just makes sense and there isn't enough ice damage in game). I dont necessarily like the balance attempt zos is doing via weapon skills. I would rather the weapons compliment the classes not the other way around like it is becoming for stam builds.

Or.... 2x 3 slot weapon swappable bar (weapon skill only) + 1x 4 slot constant skill bar (utility/buff/debuff skills)
For weapon trees are supposed to be for weapon.
So if you have to choose 3/5 and only from that weapon, it forces different builds.
Class trees are supposed to be for utility.
So having a 3rd utility (non-attack) bar enables a limited selection of class/guild buffs/debuffs/utility skills
I know not everyone agrees with that.
But I see it as a way to force diversity by sacrifice.

Like CS
You could have a 1000 options.
If you can only activate all of them but only select 10 at anytime.
The possibilities are endless.

Only works for stamina builds.

Stam weapons offer nothing for mag builds and magica has only two weapon sets (of which the offensive one - destro staff - happens to be the worst weapon line in the game imo).

If the game forced me to slot three magica weapon skills i´d respec every single one of my chars to stamina.

Derra wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

MichYodias wrote: »

I agree nightblades are the most balanced and versatile class and when DB drops they could very well be the best class for stam and mag. Harness is going to make soloing on a magblade much more viable, which I think is pretty much the only current weaknesses of the class (and im not talking solo zerg dive vd prox tether bombing).

The solution here isn't to nerf nightblades but rather bring other classes up to nightblades for stam and mag. Heck maybe its time for a 4th class skill line to help make up ground (please an ice line for sorc it just makes sense and there isn't enough ice damage in game). I dont necessarily like the balance attempt zos is doing via weapon skills. I would rather the weapons compliment the classes not the other way around like it is becoming for stam builds.

Or.... 2x 3 slot weapon swappable bar (weapon skill only) + 1x 4 slot constant skill bar (utility/buff/debuff skills)
For weapon trees are supposed to be for weapon.
So if you have to choose 3/5 and only from that weapon, it forces different builds.
Class trees are supposed to be for utility.
So having a 3rd utility (non-attack) bar enables a limited selection of class/guild buffs/debuffs/utility skills
I know not everyone agrees with that.
But I see it as a way to force diversity by sacrifice.

Like CS
You could have a 1000 options.
If you can only activate all of them but only select 10 at anytime.
The possibilities are endless.

Only works for stamina builds.

Stam weapons offer nothing for mag builds and magica has only two weapon sets (of which the offensive one - destro staff - happens to be the worst weapon line in the game imo).

If the game forced me to slot three magica weapon skills i´d respec every single one of my chars to stamina.

While I know mag builds get a lot from their class I wish there was more reason to dual wield than the passive damage increase and to open up options for more gear setups. Stam builds get less out of their class so it is fair.

ZOS_DaryaK

We've removed a few posts that were detracting from the conversation. Please try to keep things civil.

Jules

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

Abob wrote: »

Most op class right now is probably stamina templar, not nb.

Kinda agree with you, out of all the stam playstyles, i'd say stamplar is the easiest.. NBs have so many buffs but what good are buffs when you get rekt in 1-2 clean shots.

Stamplars on the other hand, the only class that can still "perma roll". You get a free purge, free armor buffs, and both give major mending for using it. Refreshes when you step back in.. etc.

How are skills that cost magicka free?

manny254

Satiar wrote: »

Ehh....

I'd actually agree with the poster above that Stamplar is the best right now. Those guys are insane.

As to Nightblades themselves, I've found the majority of the buffs listed really don't mean or do much. I've played a Nord nightblade for a very long time, and played it to a high level, meaning my passives only just offset the loss of resources my passives give me. I've found the most reliably OP part of a nightblade is not the passives or the minor buffs, but Siphoning Attacks. I could really give a damn about all the other things listed.... SA allows a Nightblade to stack large amounts of damage and not care about regen.

That said, I am finally rolling a DK.

I actually agree this patch, but next patch I disagree.

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

Abob wrote: »

Most op class right now is probably stamina templar, not nb.

Kinda agree with you, out of all the stam playstyles, i'd say stamplar is the easiest.. NBs have so many buffs but what good are buffs when you get rekt in 1-2 clean shots.

Stamplars on the other hand, the only class that can still "perma roll". You get a free purge, free armor buffs, and both give major mending for using it. Refreshes when you step back in.. etc.

Perma roll? Stam templar has the least sustain of all stam builds. The sustain is actually horrible on a non Redguard.

Alcast

Buff NBs. Only could do 20k Incaps. need more

AfkNinja

Jules wrote: »

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

Abob wrote: »

Most op class right now is probably stamina templar, not nb.

Kinda agree with you, out of all the stam playstyles, i'd say stamplar is the easiest.. NBs have so many buffs but what good are buffs when you get rekt in 1-2 clean shots.

Stamplars on the other hand, the only class that can still "perma roll". You get a free purge, free armor buffs, and both give major mending for using it. Refreshes when you step back in.. etc.

How are skills that cost magicka free?

Don't forget perma roll....

God_flakes

NB are the squishiest of all the classes. We can't take several hits and run around trolling 20 people at once like DK's can. We can't stack shields and dance around in damage like sorcs can. I'm so tired of all the crying and complaining about Nb's.

PainfulFAFA

manny254 wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Ehh....

I'd actually agree with the poster above that Stamplar is the best right now. Those guys are insane.

As to Nightblades themselves, I've found the majority of the buffs listed really don't mean or do much. I've played a Nord nightblade for a very long time, and played it to a high level, meaning my passives only just offset the loss of resources my passives give me. I've found the most reliably OP part of a nightblade is not the passives or the minor buffs, but Siphoning Attacks. I could really give a damn about all the other things listed.... SA allows a Nightblade to stack large amounts of damage and not care about regen.

That said, I am finally rolling a DK.

I actually agree this patch, but next patch I disagree.

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

Abob wrote: »

Most op class right now is probably stamina templar, not nb.

Kinda agree with you, out of all the stam playstyles, i'd say stamplar is the easiest.. NBs have so many buffs but what good are buffs when you get rekt in 1-2 clean shots.

Stamplars on the other hand, the only class that can still "perma roll". You get a free purge, free armor buffs, and both give major mending for using it. Refreshes when you step back in.. etc.

Perma roll? Stam templar has the least sustain of all stam builds. The sustain is actually horrible on a non Redguard.

I said "perma roll" because some builds allow that for stamplar. 2 EG with repentance, or using Radiant Aura on your back bar. or using 3 pce marksman or switching foods. Im using the term perma roll loosely too, nothing like the perma rollers we had before rolling away from a zerg from keep to resource.

Derra

Some NB players just make me want to write l2p.

I can´t help it. I can´t understand how someone can be under the impression magica or stamblade would be in a bad spot balance wise at the moment.

Moglijuana

God_flakes wrote: »

NB are the squishiest of all the classes. We can't take several hits and run around trolling 20 people at once like DK's can. We can't stack shields and dance around in damage like sorcs can. I'm so tired of all the crying and complaining about Nb's.

Fixed it for you. And yes, I have groups of people chase me on my NB all the time. Squishy? Not when you can dodge 4/5 attacks consistently lol. And when people in the chasing group start dropping like flies when they get caught off guard...it only gets easier from there.

Dagoth_Rac

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

manny254 wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Ehh....

I'd actually agree with the poster above that Stamplar is the best right now. Those guys are insane.

As to Nightblades themselves, I've found the majority of the buffs listed really don't mean or do much. I've played a Nord nightblade for a very long time, and played it to a high level, meaning my passives only just offset the loss of resources my passives give me. I've found the most reliably OP part of a nightblade is not the passives or the minor buffs, but Siphoning Attacks. I could really give a damn about all the other things listed.... SA allows a Nightblade to stack large amounts of damage and not care about regen.

That said, I am finally rolling a DK.

I actually agree this patch, but next patch I disagree.

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

Abob wrote: »

Most op class right now is probably stamina templar, not nb.

Kinda agree with you, out of all the stam playstyles, i'd say stamplar is the easiest.. NBs have so many buffs but what good are buffs when you get rekt in 1-2 clean shots.

Stamplars on the other hand, the only class that can still "perma roll". You get a free purge, free armor buffs, and both give major mending for using it. Refreshes when you step back in.. etc.

Perma roll? Stam templar has the least sustain of all stam builds. The sustain is actually horrible on a non Redguard.

I said "perma roll" because some builds allow that for stamplar. 2 EG with repentance, or using Radiant Aura on your back bar. or using 3 pce marksman or switching foods. Im using the term perma roll loosely too, nothing like the perma rollers we had before rolling away from a zerg from keep to resource.

Repentance is extremely unreliable - there never seems to be a dead body next to you when you need one. Radiant Aura does not stack with potions so it is mostly a waste of resources to even cast it. It costs magicka, gives you no resources back on cast, and gives you a buff to regen for like 18 seconds or something. A potion costs nothing, gives you a burst of resources back on use, and gives you a 47 second buff to regen.

Any class can equip Engine Guardian or Marksman or switch foods.

If a Stamplar is perma-dodging it is because they are built to perma-dodge in a way any class can perma-dodge, not because they are a Stamplar.

Armitas

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

This whole thing is so stupidly broken they might as well rename the game Call of Duty Online.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqxr9npkbHo

We can watch that video and think..."wow, that is really broken". ZOS sees the same video and thinks "Wow, what a great solution to the lag, let's do more of that."

PainfulFAFA

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

manny254 wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Ehh....

I'd actually agree with the poster above that Stamplar is the best right now. Those guys are insane.

As to Nightblades themselves, I've found the majority of the buffs listed really don't mean or do much. I've played a Nord nightblade for a very long time, and played it to a high level, meaning my passives only just offset the loss of resources my passives give me. I've found the most reliably OP part of a nightblade is not the passives or the minor buffs, but Siphoning Attacks. I could really give a damn about all the other things listed.... SA allows a Nightblade to stack large amounts of damage and not care about regen.

That said, I am finally rolling a DK.

I actually agree this patch, but next patch I disagree.

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

Abob wrote: »

Most op class right now is probably stamina templar, not nb.

Kinda agree with you, out of all the stam playstyles, i'd say stamplar is the easiest.. NBs have so many buffs but what good are buffs when you get rekt in 1-2 clean shots.

Stamplars on the other hand, the only class that can still "perma roll". You get a free purge, free armor buffs, and both give major mending for using it. Refreshes when you step back in.. etc.

Perma roll? Stam templar has the least sustain of all stam builds. The sustain is actually horrible on a non Redguard.

I said "perma roll" because some builds allow that for stamplar. 2 EG with repentance, or using Radiant Aura on your back bar. or using 3 pce marksman or switching foods. Im using the term perma roll loosely too, nothing like the perma rollers we had before rolling away from a zerg from keep to resource.

Repentance is extremely unreliable - there never seems to be a dead body next to you when you need one. Radiant Aura does not stack with potions so it is mostly a waste of resources to even cast it. It costs magicka, gives you no resources back on cast, and gives you a buff to regen for like 18 seconds or something. A potion costs nothing, gives you a burst of resources back on use, and gives you a 47 second buff to regen.

Any class can equip Engine Guardian or Marksman or switch foods.

If a Stamplar is perma-dodging it is because they are built to perma-dodge in a way any class can perma-dodge, not because they are a Stamplar.

Repentance is unreliable because no dead bodies? Thats why i said use 2 EG. Free 3.3k stam everytime a robot dies.
Radiant Aura costs alot of magicka? Well, you get both Major AND Minor regen buffs for ALL 3 stats. You can also spam cast it with EG if you choose that morph over repentance. What else are you using your magicka for? All you really need is purge, and maybe rune focus and together they cost about 3k magicka.

Sure any class can use marksman, EG, etc and build to be "perma dodgers" or whatever you wanna call it but you can snare/root/cc them over and over again with cheese like spambard, talons, etc.

The thing that makes stamplars the best at "perma-dodging" is because they have a free purge that gives them major mending. Again this is live, DB patch is different story

Vaoh

@Jules Thank you for writing this up! This list doesn't even take into account how highly effective NB DPS skills are (such as how the Stamina skills listed under NB are all very good). NB also has crazy amounts of easily/passively accessible buffs.

Truthfully, I hope this list not only helps ZOS see the class imbalances, but also helps Sorcerers. If you take a step back from the forum mentality of "OMG Nerf Sorc" you can see they need serious buffs right now in all areas. Not talking about the age old "shieldstacking" or Overload (which should get replaced with a real Ultimate instead of that buggy, imbalanced, DPS must-have pigeonhole skill), but rather everything else! Stam Sorcs are utterly terrible compared to the other three Stam Class specs because of this, and Magicka Sorc not having any spammable skills/access to many buffs. They are tailored to utilize shields which are recieving the duration nerf, hurting solo PvE in an unfun way and still letting good players be "super OP Sorcs".

Joy_Division

I don't think this list makes NB's OP.

IMHO, Nightblades have the most tools in their kit and the most versatile class, in that they are good at everything and can adapt to just about every situation. That's not the same thing as best or OP.

Kas

Jules wrote: »

Kas wrote: »

you forgot the binding javelin on the templar and the major eexpedition from boundless strom on sorcs. probably also more.maybe more. still, i don't disagree with your intended message

Binding Javelin doesn't give major or minor buff, does it?
And boundless storm major expedition is on there.

just in the list/number of stamina abilities
e: nvm it's on there now

nordickittyhawk

Joy_Division wrote: »

I don't think this list makes NB's OP.

IMHO, Nightblades have the most tools in their kit and the most versatile class, in that they are good at everything and can adapt to just about every situation. That's not the same thing as best or OP.

@Joy_Division well put

ku5h

Alcast wrote: »

Buff NBs. Only could do 20k Incaps. need more

You werent complaining when you posted vids of 25k HAs and 20k+ Take Flights wiping 5-6 ppl with it. Haaa......

Btw, how come sorcs are far from underperforming in PvP and they have least of buffs. Yea they have no variety, but those few loud outs they have are extremely powerfull, making them, in my opinion, no1 in Cyro, at the very least close second. I played one for a while and it was very powerfull, but boring as s... because i did 1 rotation over and over, everything died to it, yes, but booooring. Thats why i play my Nb mostly, because im swiching out my skills/weapons all the time, they are all usefull, and it prevents me from geting bored quickly.

To me that spreadsheet only shows how much diversity each class has. NB has more options at his disposal, but that doesnt make them OP compared to options other classes have.

DDuke

So many buffs, yet they miss the one that makes you unkillable in PvP: Major Mending.

All of the other buffs aren't unique to the Nightblade class and can be found in the weapon skill lines (what's wrong with them btw?)


I fail to see the purpose of this thread.


Currently, Stamina Nightblade is good at one thing and one thing only: ganking. If you can't instagib your opponent, you'll lose in the long run because you heal for 25% less than your opponents & you can't really match the Jabs DPS (which is better than Surprise Attack if you have the Templar Ransack the NB first), let alone DK DoTs which absolutely decimate the NB.


Only thing Nightblades are at the moment is popular.

And popular=/="overpowered"

Darnathian

zyk wrote: »

Kalebron wrote: »

This thread is like showing a nickle and a dime to a 5-year-old and asking them which one is bigger...

Yup. It's just an image with out of context data that does not come close to painting a complete or accurate picture of any class. It is certainly not reflective of the relative power balance we see between classes in Cyrodiil each day -- nor in 2.4.

It is only useful as an excuse for stupid and biased people to trash the NB class. Essentially, Jules is Trumping us.

She has a NB. lol. And plays her way better than you.

Biased? lmao

AfkNinja

Jules is just pointing out NB have the best build options because they have everything available in class and double the stamina morphs. No need to nerf NB, but parity would be cool. I'd like more build options for my Stamplar too.

DDuke

AfkNinja wrote: »

Jules is just pointing out NB have the best build options because they have everything available in class and double the stamina morphs. No need to nerf NB, but parity would be cool. I'd like more build options for my Stamplar too.

All you need next patch to kill NBs is jabs+DBOS.

By the time NB has CC broken he'll be at 0-30% health with a 5k/second DoT & you can just spam Jabs to prevent cloaking entirely.


If anything, NBs need buffs when it comes to survivability (though same can be said about most classes).


Other variations: Wrecking Blow->DBOS, DK DoTs, Wrecking Blow->DBOS, Rapid Strikes/Bloodthirst->DBOS - of course against these other variations you have a slight chance of surviving, should the cloak happen to actually function (a rare occurrence).

Jules

Darnathian wrote: »

She has a NB. lol. And plays her way better than you.

Biased? lmao

Wait... what?
Did Darnathian just compliment me? Is this real life?

Jules

Summary of this thread's comments-


NBs- "sure, its got the best sustain, really great damage, decent escape and mobility, all these options and diversity, they are good at everything and access to all these buffs that other classes don't have. But that doesn't make it OP!!! GOD NO!!!"

Everyone else- *eyeroll*

DDuke

Jules wrote: »

Summary of this thread's comments-


NBs- "sure, its got the best sustain, really great damage, decent escape and mobility, all these options and diversity, they are good at everything and access to all these buffs that other classes don't have. But that doesn't make it OP!!! GOD NO!!!"

Everyone else- *eyeroll*

Sustain:
Who cares about sustain, anyone who is Redguard has infinite stamina anyway

"Really great damage":
Only burst damage. Literally all other classes have better sustained DPS

Decent escape and mobility
Agreed here.

"good at everything"
No, they are not good at taking damage and surviving that damage. Lack of Major Mending & any kind of dmg shield/instant heal makes sure of that.


And I dare you to list one buff that other classes don't have access to but NBs do.


Can we stop the NB hate please?

Every class can instagib from sneak and be very annoying, NBs just happen to be the most popular class because people enjoy playing stealth classes in MMOs.

Soris

Lol it's popular because it's overpowered. Why would anyone reroll mediocre class with masses?

Jules

DDuke wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

Summary of this thread's comments-


NBs- "sure, its got the best sustain, really great damage, decent escape and mobility, all these options and diversity, they are good at everything and access to all these buffs that other classes don't have. But that doesn't make it OP!!! GOD NO!!!"

Everyone else- *eyeroll*

And I dare you to list one buff that other classes don't have access to but NBs do.


Can we stop the NB hate please?

You didn't double dog dare me, but I took you up on it anyway.
Major breach. Major Protection. Major Evasion. Next question?