Eh, it's more complicated than a static list of buffs, Jules. Nightblade is the most complete of the classes, yes, but the buffs in and of themselves are not what makes nightblade op in context.

Mageblade in all of its many variations is pretty near perfectly balanced imo except for proxy + VD bombing. Those are not class skills, though. If we weren't stuck with stupid AoE caps, we wouldn't need proxy, and VD never would have been implemented. Let the proxy VD tardblades feed on the zergs and ball groups. In my opinion, it's healthy to have people out there discouraging tight grouping.

Stamblade is the troublesome one, and I agree that it is overtuned in multiple ways. Suggested balancing for stamblades which I have stood by for a long time (and I do love playing stamblade myself):
- remove penetration from Surprise Attack
- make Veiled Strike (unmorphed Concealed/SA) an assassination ability and Blur a Shadow ability so that the NB's primary dps ability does not proc the Shadow Barrier passive for free perma-resists
- keep an eye on Incap Strike. Soul Harvest doesn't feel overtuned on mageblade, and it scales with their CP. Stamblades may be over the top with the change to Incap, though

I am not of the opinion that stamblade cloaking is out of line, but I'm open to conversation about it. In my opinion, Cloak is unreliable these days with the detection methods and snares available to everyone. I haven't been using it on my nightblades since shortly after the TG patch.

Other mechanics that make stamplades frustrating to play against are not unique to the class. Stealth one shot ganking can be done by any class, and stam DK is arguably the best at it. Perma-roll dodging and Shuffle are used by all stam classes, with stamplar and stam DK arguably the primary beneficiaries since they have access to Major Mending to heal them up while they roll around.

Derra wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

MichYodias wrote: »

I agree nightblades are the most balanced and versatile class and when DB drops they could very well be the best class for stam and mag. Harness is going to make soloing on a magblade much more viable, which I think is pretty much the only current weaknesses of the class (and im not talking solo zerg dive vd prox tether bombing).

The solution here isn't to nerf nightblades but rather bring other classes up to nightblades for stam and mag. Heck maybe its time for a 4th class skill line to help make up ground (please an ice line for sorc it just makes sense and there isn't enough ice damage in game). I dont necessarily like the balance attempt zos is doing via weapon skills. I would rather the weapons compliment the classes not the other way around like it is becoming for stam builds.

Or.... 2x 3 slot weapon swappable bar (weapon skill only) + 1x 4 slot constant skill bar (utility/buff/debuff skills)
For weapon trees are supposed to be for weapon.
So if you have to choose 3/5 and only from that weapon, it forces different builds.
Class trees are supposed to be for utility.
So having a 3rd utility (non-attack) bar enables a limited selection of class/guild buffs/debuffs/utility skills
I know not everyone agrees with that.
But I see it as a way to force diversity by sacrifice.

Like CS
You could have a 1000 options.
If you can only activate all of them but only select 10 at anytime.
The possibilities are endless.

Only works for stamina builds.

Stam weapons offer nothing for mag builds and magica has only two weapon sets (of which the offensive one - destro staff - happens to be the worst weapon line in the game imo).

If the game forced me to slot three magica weapon skills i´d respec every single one of my chars to stamina.

Derra wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

MichYodias wrote: »

I agree nightblades are the most balanced and versatile class and when DB drops they could very well be the best class for stam and mag. Harness is going to make soloing on a magblade much more viable, which I think is pretty much the only current weaknesses of the class (and im not talking solo zerg dive vd prox tether bombing).

The solution here isn't to nerf nightblades but rather bring other classes up to nightblades for stam and mag. Heck maybe its time for a 4th class skill line to help make up ground (please an ice line for sorc it just makes sense and there isn't enough ice damage in game). I dont necessarily like the balance attempt zos is doing via weapon skills. I would rather the weapons compliment the classes not the other way around like it is becoming for stam builds.

Or.... 2x 3 slot weapon swappable bar (weapon skill only) + 1x 4 slot constant skill bar (utility/buff/debuff skills)
For weapon trees are supposed to be for weapon.
So if you have to choose 3/5 and only from that weapon, it forces different builds.
Class trees are supposed to be for utility.
So having a 3rd utility (non-attack) bar enables a limited selection of class/guild buffs/debuffs/utility skills
I know not everyone agrees with that.
But I see it as a way to force diversity by sacrifice.

Like CS
You could have a 1000 options.
If you can only activate all of them but only select 10 at anytime.
The possibilities are endless.

Only works for stamina builds.

Stam weapons offer nothing for mag builds and magica has only two weapon sets (of which the offensive one - destro staff - happens to be the worst weapon line in the game imo).

If the game forced me to slot three magica weapon skills i´d respec every single one of my chars to stamina.

While I know mag builds get a lot from their class I wish there was more reason to dual wield than the passive damage increase and to open up options for more gear setups. Stam builds get less out of their class so it is fair.

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

Abob wrote: »

Most op class right now is probably stamina templar, not nb.

Kinda agree with you, out of all the stam playstyles, i'd say stamplar is the easiest.. NBs have so many buffs but what good are buffs when you get rekt in 1-2 clean shots.

Stamplars on the other hand, the only class that can still "perma roll". You get a free purge, free armor buffs, and both give major mending for using it. Refreshes when you step back in.. etc.

How are skills that cost magicka free?

Buff NBs. Only could do 20k Incaps. need more

Some NB players just make me want to write l2p.

I can´t help it. I can´t understand how someone can be under the impression magica or stamblade would be in a bad spot balance wise at the moment.

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

manny254 wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Ehh....

I'd actually agree with the poster above that Stamplar is the best right now. Those guys are insane.

As to Nightblades themselves, I've found the majority of the buffs listed really don't mean or do much. I've played a Nord nightblade for a very long time, and played it to a high level, meaning my passives only just offset the loss of resources my passives give me. I've found the most reliably OP part of a nightblade is not the passives or the minor buffs, but Siphoning Attacks. I could really give a damn about all the other things listed.... SA allows a Nightblade to stack large amounts of damage and not care about regen.

That said, I am finally rolling a DK.

I actually agree this patch, but next patch I disagree.

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

Abob wrote: »

Most op class right now is probably stamina templar, not nb.

Kinda agree with you, out of all the stam playstyles, i'd say stamplar is the easiest.. NBs have so many buffs but what good are buffs when you get rekt in 1-2 clean shots.

Stamplars on the other hand, the only class that can still "perma roll". You get a free purge, free armor buffs, and both give major mending for using it. Refreshes when you step back in.. etc.

Perma roll? Stam templar has the least sustain of all stam builds. The sustain is actually horrible on a non Redguard.

I said "perma roll" because some builds allow that for stamplar. 2 EG with repentance, or using Radiant Aura on your back bar. or using 3 pce marksman or switching foods. Im using the term perma roll loosely too, nothing like the perma rollers we had before rolling away from a zerg from keep to resource.

Repentance is extremely unreliable - there never seems to be a dead body next to you when you need one. Radiant Aura does not stack with potions so it is mostly a waste of resources to even cast it. It costs magicka, gives you no resources back on cast, and gives you a buff to regen for like 18 seconds or something. A potion costs nothing, gives you a burst of resources back on use, and gives you a 47 second buff to regen.

Any class can equip Engine Guardian or Marksman or switch foods.

If a Stamplar is perma-dodging it is because they are built to perma-dodge in a way any class can perma-dodge, not because they are a Stamplar.

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

manny254 wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Ehh....

I'd actually agree with the poster above that Stamplar is the best right now. Those guys are insane.

As to Nightblades themselves, I've found the majority of the buffs listed really don't mean or do much. I've played a Nord nightblade for a very long time, and played it to a high level, meaning my passives only just offset the loss of resources my passives give me. I've found the most reliably OP part of a nightblade is not the passives or the minor buffs, but Siphoning Attacks. I could really give a damn about all the other things listed.... SA allows a Nightblade to stack large amounts of damage and not care about regen.

That said, I am finally rolling a DK.

I actually agree this patch, but next patch I disagree.

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

Abob wrote: »

Most op class right now is probably stamina templar, not nb.

Kinda agree with you, out of all the stam playstyles, i'd say stamplar is the easiest.. NBs have so many buffs but what good are buffs when you get rekt in 1-2 clean shots.

Stamplars on the other hand, the only class that can still "perma roll". You get a free purge, free armor buffs, and both give major mending for using it. Refreshes when you step back in.. etc.

Perma roll? Stam templar has the least sustain of all stam builds. The sustain is actually horrible on a non Redguard.

I said "perma roll" because some builds allow that for stamplar. 2 EG with repentance, or using Radiant Aura on your back bar. or using 3 pce marksman or switching foods. Im using the term perma roll loosely too, nothing like the perma rollers we had before rolling away from a zerg from keep to resource.

Repentance is extremely unreliable - there never seems to be a dead body next to you when you need one. Radiant Aura does not stack with potions so it is mostly a waste of resources to even cast it. It costs magicka, gives you no resources back on cast, and gives you a buff to regen for like 18 seconds or something. A potion costs nothing, gives you a burst of resources back on use, and gives you a 47 second buff to regen.

Any class can equip Engine Guardian or Marksman or switch foods.

If a Stamplar is perma-dodging it is because they are built to perma-dodge in a way any class can perma-dodge, not because they are a Stamplar.

Repentance is unreliable because no dead bodies? Thats why i said use 2 EG. Free 3.3k stam everytime a robot dies.
Radiant Aura costs alot of magicka? Well, you get both Major AND Minor regen buffs for ALL 3 stats. You can also spam cast it with EG if you choose that morph over repentance. What else are you using your magicka for? All you really need is purge, and maybe rune focus and together they cost about 3k magicka.

Sure any class can use marksman, EG, etc and build to be "perma dodgers" or whatever you wanna call it but you can snare/root/cc them over and over again with cheese like spambard, talons, etc.

The thing that makes stamplars the best at "perma-dodging" is because they have a free purge that gives them major mending. Again this is live, DB patch is different story

I don't think this list makes NB's OP.

IMHO, Nightblades have the most tools in their kit and the most versatile class, in that they are good at everything and can adapt to just about every situation. That's not the same thing as best or OP.

Joy_Division wrote: »

I don't think this list makes NB's OP.

IMHO, Nightblades have the most tools in their kit and the most versatile class, in that they are good at everything and can adapt to just about every situation. That's not the same thing as best or OP.

@Joy_Division well put

Jules is just pointing out NB have the best build options because they have everything available in class and double the stamina morphs. No need to nerf NB, but parity would be cool. I'd like more build options for my Stamplar too.

Darnathian wrote: »

She has a NB. lol. And plays her way better than you.

Biased? lmao

Wait... what?
Did Darnathian just compliment me? Is this real life?

DDuke wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

Summary of this thread's comments-


NBs- "sure, its got the best sustain, really great damage, decent escape and mobility, all these options and diversity, they are good at everything and access to all these buffs that other classes don't have. But that doesn't make it OP!!! GOD NO!!!"

Everyone else- *eyeroll*

And I dare you to list one buff that other classes don't have access to but NBs do.


Can we stop the NB hate please?

You didn't double dog dare me, but I took you up on it anyway.
Major breach. Major Protection. Major Evasion. Next question?