Remove max stats from damage calculations

Bossdonut

Sounds like a case of git gud. 10% more stam/mag aren't going to get you any less rekt.

MaxTM

How can this Topic always cause so much trouble? It's simple. Argonians and Nords are just not designed for playing a High-End DD which doesn`t mean that you can't do it. (Imperial Magicka DK ftw!) If you're unhappy with your race, just re-roll like i did but stop flaming over the same topic again and again cause some1 outDPS'd you.

sigsergv

The cause of problem are not max stats, but DPS craze, everyone is obsessed with high DPS, it's insane.

Digiman

Some races come with better DPS some with better survivability, Argonians and Nords last longer in combat. I wouldn't call it a disadvantage, especially with a DPS driven game. Taking more hits means you give more damage.

Besides I think its like a 2% damage increase, you won't be topping charts but this game was never about damage charts.

Detector

NO.

CP5

In case no one watch the video where Wrobel mentioned this and talked about how they are going to address it let me just sum up the problem nice and simple. Right now people build for the minimum amount of health needed to avoid getting one shot then pool all of their other attribute points into magicka or stamina. That is such a dull system and does not encourage build diversity. If they made it so max resources were just that then people could distribute the points in a way that compliments their build, not just their deeps. For those who are so toxic to the idea, are you just upset your deeps will drop, or do you not want to make a build that doesn't just do better by having more max stats?

jzholloway

Brrrofski wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Junkogen wrote: »

The title is self-explanatory. As an Argonian player (full disclosure), it's ridiculous that my DPS will never be near as good as any other race except a Nord simply because of racial passives. This game is about damage @ZOS_RichLambert @Wrobel @ZOS_Finn @ZOS_BrianWheeler . For better or worse, you designed the game like this. Argonians and Nords are at a disadvantage to every other race because they don't get a max stat boost that matters. Fact!

Maelstrom Arena is about DPS. PvP is about DPS. PvE is very much about DPS. So why put two races at a disadvantage, in the same faction no less?

Also, why should max stats apply to damage? Shouldn't it be enough that those races get a higher resource pool? Health is not a resource. While important, it can not be used to execute abilities. It's just a passive resource, whereas magicka and Stamina are usable. It's simply not balanced to hinder two races like that. This has been an ongoing issue since the removal of soft caps. Why not just level the playing field by divorcing stamina and magicka from damage calculations? I've heard this idea tossed around, but why isn't it being taken more seriously?

Is there a valid reason for designing two races to just be at a natural disadvantage?

Also, the potion passive? Come on, why is this still in the game after all these changes? It would be nice to get actual explanations as to how these things are balanced. It seems like it makes sense to you guys, but nobody else.

Ever heard of the Argonian Alchemist Nightblade?
The potion passive is awesome. Much better than "Robust"

No, they don't exist.

That potion passive is bad.

Why would you take it over a high elf/breton for magica NB or redguard/orc/wood elf

??? ok.. haha

idk

Brrrofski wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Junkogen wrote: »

The title is self-explanatory. As an Argonian player (full disclosure), it's ridiculous that my DPS will never be near as good as any other race except a Nord simply because of racial passives. This game is about damage @ZOS_RichLambert @Wrobel @ZOS_Finn @ZOS_BrianWheeler . For better or worse, you designed the game like this. Argonians and Nords are at a disadvantage to every other race because they don't get a max stat boost that matters. Fact!

Maelstrom Arena is about DPS. PvP is about DPS. PvE is very much about DPS. So why put two races at a disadvantage, in the same faction no less?

Also, why should max stats apply to damage? Shouldn't it be enough that those races get a higher resource pool? Health is not a resource. While important, it can not be used to execute abilities. It's just a passive resource, whereas magicka and Stamina are usable. It's simply not balanced to hinder two races like that. This has been an ongoing issue since the removal of soft caps. Why not just level the playing field by divorcing stamina and magicka from damage calculations? I've heard this idea tossed around, but why isn't it being taken more seriously?

Is there a valid reason for designing two races to just be at a natural disadvantage?

Also, the potion passive? Come on, why is this still in the game after all these changes? It would be nice to get actual explanations as to how these things are balanced. It seems like it makes sense to you guys, but nobody else.

Ever heard of the Argonian Alchemist Nightblade?
The potion passive is awesome. Much better than "Robust"

No, they don't exist.

That potion passive is bad.

Why would you take it over a high elf/breton for magica NB or redguard/orc/wood elf

The more pressing issue is, are you pulling 25-30k dps on your argonian? If not then the extra magika some classes get isn't going to make that much of a difference.

Gedalya

My request is that they please refrain from tinkering with things like damage calculations. These type of changes should be limited and not as frequent as they have been.

dday3six

CP5 wrote: »

In case no one watch the video where Wrobel mentioned this and talked about how they are going to address it let me just sum up the problem nice and simple. Right now people build for the minimum amount of health needed to avoid getting one shot then pool all of their other attribute points into magicka or stamina. That is such a dull system and does not encourage build diversity. If they made it so max resources were just that then people could distribute the points in a way that compliments their build, not just their deeps. For those who are so toxic to the idea, are you just upset your deeps will drop, or do you not want to make a build that doesn't just do better by having more max stats?

Why buzzword 'toxic' into the mix. That conveys that people aren't simply disagreeing, but are doing it harmfully so. That seems completely unwarrented of an assertion.

How able I don't want to start over from square one with build theorycrafting to address an issue. That's an extreme rebuild when a simple remodel would suffice. If there's imbalance with racial passives, address that directly by changes to the racial passives.

Removing Stat scaling wouldn't change anything. Khajiit would be best choice for Stamina builds it's crit passive outweighing everything else as the only existing option to increase Stamina DPS output. Altmer would still be the go to for Sorcs. Dunmer for DK and Nightblade. With Templar being up in the air, depending on if you wanted to DPS or Heal. So how would removing stat scaling improve imbalances with racial passives?

It still wouldn't make hybrids possible since CP favors one or the other at the moment, and would need the cap at least doubled to make room. However I wage you just want that system completely removed too.

Players already set to as much HP as they feel comfortable with, and it varies from player to player. Not everyone goes 64 into their main stat. The just don't put points into their tertiary. Which would not change because even without stat scaling having a larger primary resource pool helps with sustain.

I just don't see have removing stat scaling changes much, and I certainly don't see how it addresses racial passive imbalance.

idk

dday3six wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

In case no one watch the video where Wrobel mentioned this and talked about how they are going to address it let me just sum up the problem nice and simple. Right now people build for the minimum amount of health needed to avoid getting one shot then pool all of their other attribute points into magicka or stamina. That is such a dull system and does not encourage build diversity. If they made it so max resources were just that then people could distribute the points in a way that compliments their build, not just their deeps. For those who are so toxic to the idea, are you just upset your deeps will drop, or do you not want to make a build that doesn't just do better by having more max stats?

Why buzzword 'toxic' into the mix. That conveys that people aren't simply disagreeing, but are doing it harmfully so. That seems completely unwarrented of an assertion.

How able I don't want to start over from square one with build theorycrafting to address an issue. That's an extreme rebuild when a simple remodel would suffice. If there's imbalance with racial passives, address that directly by changes to the racial passives.

Removing Stat scaling wouldn't change anything. Khajiit would be best choice for Stamina builds it's crit passive outweighing everything else as the only existing option to increase Stamina DPS output. Altmer would still be the go to for Sorcs. Dunmer for DK and Nightblade. With Templar being up in the air, depending on if you wanted to DPS or Heal. So how would removing stat scaling improve imbalances with racial passives?

It still wouldn't make hybrids possible since CP favors one or the other at the moment, and would need the cap at least doubled to make room. However I wage you just want that system completely removed too.

Players already set to as much HP as they feel comfortable with, and it varies from player to player. Not everyone goes 64 into their main stat. The just don't put points into their tertiary. Which would not change because even without stat scaling having a larger primary resource pool helps with sustain.

I just don't see have removing stat scaling changes much, and I certainly don't see how it addresses racial passive imbalance.

I think he was just reflecting. When he meant people being toxic to his idea he is just meaning he's toxic tha he cannot do as he wants and get the dps he wants to get. This is why he is requesting a nerf to builds ala WoW ash SWTOR Methods of maiming the game simpler for those that find all this a little to challenging.

CP5

When I said "toxic" I was meaning how so many replies boiled down to "L2P" or "Just re-roll" or "No". We currently have a meta where you are heavily encouraged to stack one thing, and when you think you're done you should still stack it some more. This restricts what players could do, not by changing their choices, but by making anything but that far less effective in comparison. I get it would require thinking over builds, but isn't that what zos makes people do every update anyway? And side note, i'm not speaking for 're-balancing racials', that's a whole other subject, i'm more speaking on "just stack your main resource."

See the post above me for an idea of what I was talking about by 'toxic'.

Ethromelb14_ESO

What I want to know is how I can be vet 16 with 3,106 dmg and 71% crit chance, fighting a level 22 in Alik'r Desert and still not insta-kill any of them? Something is indeed broken. Enemies are more powerful or resilient than they should be in certain areas.

susmitds

Ethromelb14_ESO wrote: »

What I want to know is how I can be vet 16 with 3,106 dmg and 71% crit chance, fighting a level 22 in Alik'r Desert and still not insta-kill any of them? Something is indeed broken. Enemies are more powerful or resilient than they should be in certain areas.

That's weird. I am one-shotting even v16 normal mobs. I got 3348 weapon damage, 86% crit, 198% crit damage and 21.8% extra mighty damage and yeah, I got the stealthy passive.

Destruent

Ethromelb14_ESO wrote: »

What I want to know is how I can be vet 16 with 3,106 dmg and 71% crit chance, fighting a level 22 in Alik'r Desert and still not insta-kill any of them? Something is indeed broken. Enemies are more powerful or resilient than they should be in certain areas.

maybe you use the wrong skills/weapons?

Rune_Relic

sigsergv wrote: »

The cause of problem are not max stats, but DPS craze, everyone is obsessed with high DPS, it's insane.

QFT

Junkogen

Digiman wrote: »

Some races come with better DPS some with better survivability, Argonians and Nords last longer in combat. I wouldn't call it a disadvantage, especially with a DPS driven game. Taking more hits means you give more damage.

Besides I think its like a 2% damage increase, you won't be topping charts but this game was never about damage charts.

The 9% extra health is a pittance. They don't last longer at all. In fact they have less resources to use abilities and therefore the exact opposite than what seems to be intended is true. Argonians and Nords don't last as long. Plus, magicka and Stamina are always the bigger resources so 10% of something bigger is more than 9% of nothing. Also, as the topic of this thread says, damage is based off stamina and magicka, so not only do other races get more bang for their buck they also get more BANG for their buck. When you start actually looking at what the passives actually do instead of the raw numbers, the imbalance becomes much more glaring.

susmitds

Junkogen wrote: »

Digiman wrote: »

Some races come with better DPS some with better survivability, Argonians and Nords last longer in combat. I wouldn't call it a disadvantage, especially with a DPS driven game. Taking more hits means you give more damage.

Besides I think its like a 2% damage increase, you won't be topping charts but this game was never about damage charts.

The 9% extra health is a pittance. They don't last longer at all. In fact they have less resources to use abilities and therefore the exact opposite than what seems to be intended is true. Argonians and Nords don't last as long. Plus, magicka and Stamina are always the bigger resources so 10% of something bigger is more than 9% of nothing. Also, as the topic of this thread says, damage is based off stamina and magicka, so not only do other races get more bang for their buck they also get more BANG for their buck. When you start actually looking at what the passives actually do instead of the raw numbers, the imbalance becomes much more glaring.

What you say is only true if you play pure DPS. Argonians and Nords both make better tanks than say Altmer and Khajiit. The DPS difference is pretty minimal. But 9% more HP means you can literally take 9% more damage. Which is great for tanks.

DHale

My first toon was a bosmer nb I didn't like it with anything other than a bow... So I rolled a imperial nb not the best magic nb so I rolled a high elf magic nb do you see where I am going with this.... Quit asking for stuff from ZOS. Level another toon with the racials you want. But rest assured any of us that can't do do damage or content without 10 percent extra of a stat ... Any stat won't be competitive with it or without it. For those of us there is still checkers and chess. Errrr sorry my bad the bishop has different stats than the rook. Never mind. Btw when we can get more toons I will be leveling a red guard nb. Kappa.

CP5

DHale wrote: »

My first toon was a bosmer nb I didn't like it with anything other than a bow... So I rolled a imperial nb not the best magic nb so I rolled a high elf magic nb do you see where I am going with this.... Quit asking for stuff from ZOS. Level another toon with the racials you want. But rest assured any of us that can't do do damage or content without 10 percent extra of a stat ... Any stat won't be competitive with it or without it. For those of us there is still checkers and chess. Errrr sorry my bad the bishop has different stats than the rook. Never mind. Btw when we can get more toons I will be leveling a red guard nb. Kappa.

ZOS is already looking into this because currently max attribute distribution is pretty much a binary choice, go full stam or go full magicka. It isn't about race choice at this point, its about making your choice in attribute matter more than "what do you deeps with".

imapogostick

xblackroxe wrote: »

The problem with this idea is that it wouldn't change a thing. Ofcourse people could also put points into other attributes but why would they? The thing this would change is only that people would just start stacking only into damage and crit instead of before needing to stack magicka too.
Hybrids still won't be viable. Also you would still put all points into the resectivd attribute because you need as much ressources as possible to sustain.

Not if your pulling from both pools... getting max health racial passive is by far one of the worst passive since you can't even put any points into health to really make this stand out, if you do your gimping your damage and pool output so you just can't. At least if you change damage scaling off max pool you won't be gimpin your damage which is one of the biggest things in this game. I agree it's boring going all stamina or all magic just to stay competitive.

Ppl need to stop acting like argonian is a weak race and therefore should have slave like stats to match plz stfu.

Ive been saying the same thing about ep how the hell it's nord and argonian on this team and have it even compete with the other factions. Who the hell is this factions healer? I would assume dunmer?

imapogostick

Digiman wrote: »

Some races come with better DPS some with better survivability, Argonians and Nords last longer in combat. I wouldn't call it a disadvantage, especially with a DPS driven game. Taking more hits means you give more damage.

Besides I think its like a 2% damage increase, you won't be topping charts but this game was never about damage charts.

The problem here is not just dps you have to remember every skill scales off max pool, therefore my argonian not only does less damage but also less healing, less buffing, less. Less. Less.that's the key word. Maybe we have 2k more hps just to bad you can heal buff and damage much more than what that extra health is giving me.

americansteel

DDemon wrote: »

Argonians are lesser creatures, why should they get the same abilities as others?

hahaha argonians are warriors but zos thinks otherwise.

Eirikir

This game is a lot more fun when you don't try to min/max everything. Don't worry about the dps on lizards and nords, they are defensive races and are meant to be more survivable. This plays well for people like me that don't mind a little less dps in exchance for not being so fragile.

If you wanna play for stats, then pick the "best" race, if you wanna play for esthetics then play the race you like. No one ever said you could have your cake and eat it too.

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO

Soft caps need to come back.

imapogostick

Eirikir wrote: »

This game is a lot more fun when you don't try to min/max everything. Don't worry about the dps on lizards and nords, they are defensive races and are meant to be more survivable. This plays well for people like me that don't mind a little less dps in exchance for not being so fragile.

If you wanna play for stats, then pick the "best" race, if you wanna play for esthetics then play the race you like. No one ever said you could have your cake and eat it too.

I think your missing the point here... I for one don't want to play the same thing everyone does, but I'd like to not be gimped so badly because I choose to not be a dunmer dk. Argonian is the only race that has a passive that gets cut in half when playing pvp is that really fair?

bowmanz607

Race changes coming soon. If I recall correctly barber shop is q3 and race changes come with barber shop.

imapogostick

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Race changes coming soon. If I recall correctly barber shop is q3 and race changes come with barber shop.

We don't want to change our race to what everyone is, were just asking to not be so God damn gimped compared to others, not asking to be better than everyone just comparable!

Eirikir

imapogostick wrote: »

Eirikir wrote: »

This game is a lot more fun when you don't try to min/max everything. Don't worry about the dps on lizards and nords, they are defensive races and are meant to be more survivable. This plays well for people like me that don't mind a little less dps in exchance for not being so fragile.

If you wanna play for stats, then pick the "best" race, if you wanna play for esthetics then play the race you like. No one ever said you could have your cake and eat it too.

I think your missing the point here... I for one don't want to play the same thing everyone does, but I'd like to not be gimped so badly because I choose to not be a dunmer dk. Argonian is the only race that has a passive that gets cut in half when playing pvp is that really fair?

No, I'm not missing your point, I see what you are saying. But I'm saying gear, food, and player skill make more of a difference the a 10% boost of any stat.

I do think the lizards get a bum deal on the passive that gets halved, but seem to make up under the new poisoned weapons meta. I always felt that the passives have more of an effect on the pre-50 game then the post. My opinion mind you.

bowmanz607

imapogostick wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Race changes coming soon. If I recall correctly barber shop is q3 and race changes come with barber shop.

We don't want to change our race to what everyone is, were just asking to not be so God damn gimped compared to others, not asking to be better than everyone just comparable!

Well with the ability to change races also comes with a racial overhaul. They didn't want to make make these changes until people had the ability to change their race.