Remove max stats from damage calculations

GeorgeBlack

Max Stam and Max magika damaga contribution should be removed

DHale

Ha ha ha.... No. I looked at the racial passives before choosing. You need to do your own homework also lots of argonians have done vmsa successfully as well. They are not going to change the game because you need your .... Immersion. Argonians have been poor choices for over two years. That is not someone else's fault. That said a little buffing would not hurt argonians. Also clever alchemist could synergies off the racial passives you do have.

Xjcon

Could only make it past like 5 or so posts.... all I got out of a few of them was they were "Entitled" let me find the defenition for you.

Believing oneself to be inherently deserving of privileges or special treatment.
en·ti·tle

Some of you believe you are "Entitled" to certain things simply.....because.

Many of us made specific choices to how we build our characters. If you want to min/max fine, but do like the rest and make the specific builds with specific races. Hopefully soon there will be a change race option in the crown store.

CP5

Xjcon wrote: »

Could only make it past like 5 or so posts.... all I got out of a few of them was they were "Entitled" let me find the defenition for you.

Believing oneself to be inherently deserving of privileges or special treatment.
en·ti·tle

Some of you believe you are "Entitled" to certain things simply.....because.

Many of us made specific choices to how we build our characters. If you want to min/max fine, but do like the rest and make the specific builds with specific races. Hopefully soon there will be a change race option in the crown store.

Or you could say the min-maxers that don't want things to change are entitled since they want to be the best and don't want to put forward the effort to adapt to an environment where you don't simply stack stamina or magicka to benefit the most from attributes. Maybe with this change people will, *gasp*, think about different combinations.

Xjcon

CP5 wrote: »

Xjcon wrote: »

Could only make it past like 5 or so posts.... all I got out of a few of them was they were "Entitled" let me find the defenition for you.

Believing oneself to be inherently deserving of privileges or special treatment.
en·ti·tle

Some of you believe you are "Entitled" to certain things simply.....because.

Many of us made specific choices to how we build our characters. If you want to min/max fine, but do like the rest and make the specific builds with specific races. Hopefully soon there will be a change race option in the crown store.

Or you could say the min-maxers that don't want things to change are entitled since they want to be the best and don't want to put forward the effort to adapt to an environment where you don't simply stack stamina or magicka to benefit the most from attributes. Maybe with this change people will, *gasp*, think about different combinations.

Lol..okay...

Min/Maxers would find the next best thing regardless. What I don't want is a complete change of meta because people won't do what the rest of us have already done and roll that specific race for a specific build.


Would I support a 1.5 style soft cap roll back? Absolutely, that was by far the best version of ESO IMO.

notimetocare

Natural propensity for X race should never have an effect on performance. It doesn't do that in real life right?

CP5

Xjcon wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

Xjcon wrote: »

Could only make it past like 5 or so posts.... all I got out of a few of them was they were "Entitled" let me find the defenition for you.

Believing oneself to be inherently deserving of privileges or special treatment.
en·ti·tle

Some of you believe you are "Entitled" to certain things simply.....because.

Many of us made specific choices to how we build our characters. If you want to min/max fine, but do like the rest and make the specific builds with specific races. Hopefully soon there will be a change race option in the crown store.

Or you could say the min-maxers that don't want things to change are entitled since they want to be the best and don't want to put forward the effort to adapt to an environment where you don't simply stack stamina or magicka to benefit the most from attributes. Maybe with this change people will, *gasp*, think about different combinations.

Lol..okay...

Min/Maxers would find the next best thing regardless. What I don't want is a complete change of meta because people won't do what the rest of us have already done and roll that specific race for a specific build.


Would I support a 1.5 style soft cap roll back? Absolutely, that was by far the best version of ESO IMO.

I'm looking around their live videos to see where it was answered. But why are so many people toxic to this idea? Wouldn't it be fantastic if you could invest in different attributes? Be balanced between stamina and magicka to draw from both reliably, invest in health while not gimping damage, get high regen for one resource but invest points in the other so you can use both? Options? Something other than the "stack one and done" meta?

Here is the link: https://www.twitch.tv/zenimaxonlinestudios/v/44145484
Go to 1:06:52

swirve

But argonians are best able to swim through all the tears...that is where a lot of ESO players are at...so arg > all other races

swirve

MisterBastahrd wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

MisterBastahrd wrote: »

I'm of the opinion that racial bonuses should have nothing to do with damage, directly or indirectly, and that bonus from attributes should be taken from the attribute allocation itself instead of the raw stamina / magicka stat. Ebonheart is at a gigantic disadvantage when rolling characters because two of the three races are bottom barrel for PVP. Swimming? Cold resist? Stop smoking crack.

@MisterBastahrd

At least, the Ebonheart guys are all hardy and tanky.
Look at the Dominion races. All glass cannons.

Glass cannons get the lion's share of the kills in the current meta.

Except in azura with no cp...the greens are terrible and have no clue on how to play using resource management...

SlayerTheDragon

Racials should just, unceremoniously, be dropped. In an overnight patch - poof gone.

It will help balance the game, what with over powered CP, gear, abilities, and now poisons.

xblackroxe

The problem with this idea is that it wouldn't change a thing. Ofcourse people could also put points into other attributes but why would they? The thing this would change is only that people would just start stacking only into damage and crit instead of before needing to stack magicka too.
Hybrids still won't be viable. Also you would still put all points into the resectivd attribute because you need as much ressources as possible to sustain.

The Uninvited

Lysette wrote: »

IMO this damage calculation limits the game play to just a few min/max builds, instead to have a huge variety of viable hybrid builds instead, where not any enemy is to be expected to have certain abilities and strength, but where it is a surprise. To artificially reduce the amount of viable builds by min/max mechanics is not really clever, is it?- More variety leads to people wanting more characters and more characters means they will stay longer in the game and pay more - see it like this, ZOS.

It all started when they removed softcaps. If rhey bring those back, we would see a lot more hybrid builds.

Bashev

Removing max stats from the damage calculations is not going to help. People will stack regen and power and they will have unlimited resources and strong dps again. What we need is soft caps back.

Lysette

dday3six wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Well, first I am not demanding anything, I am debating things from my perspective. Secondly, I am entitled to my play style just like you are entitled to yours. If all is just debated from a pvp perspective, than one of the main purposes of this game, role play (it is a role playing game, don't forget that), would be neglected. My view as a role player matters as well. And as a role player I really dislike meta-gaming and player-centric views, instead of character-centric and from the character's perspective.

Edit: and what variety is that, if min/max is the only viable option?- Given a certain race, the choice is just digital - either all in max or all in stamina. That is not variety at all. All the many hybrid builds will just lead to non-viable and non-competitive options. So don''t tell me, that going away from stamina/magicka scaling would lead to less variety - there is no less variety possible to just a digital choice - all other is more.

If hybrids were viable that's all there would be. Players would mix and match until the best set of skills were found, then that would be the new bar. At least with stat scaling Stamina builds get to exist. That's actually more diverse than before stat scaling was introduced. Hybrids were just Magical builds that dipped into Stamina skills, getting all the utility Magicka offered without any of the drawbacks. While variety is important so is balance.

Balance does not mean that the options have to be reduced to just a digital choice per race - that is bad.

Lysette

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Well, first I am not demanding anything, I am debating things from my perspective. Secondly, I am entitled to my play style just like you are entitled to yours. If all is just debated from a pvp perspective, than one of the main purposes of this game, role play (it is a role playing game, don't forget that), would be neglected. My view as a role player matters as well. And as a role player I really dislike meta-gaming and player-centric views, instead of character-centric and from the character's perspective.

Edit: and what variety is that, if min/max is the only viable option?- Given a certain race, the choice is just digital - either all in max or all in stamina. That is not variety at all. All the many hybrid builds will just lead to non-viable and non-competitive options. So don''t tell me, that going away from stamina/magicka scaling would lead to less variety - there is no less variety possible to just a digital choice - all other is more.

Your thread title and first sentence strongly indicate you are demanding something here.

At that, the Arogonian, which you seem to be playing, does get a max health passive. This isn't as juicy or big as most mad magika/stamina Passives but mad stat is still mad stat. Adding more health means being able to put more into mag/stam.

And the potion passive isn't that bad. Very interesting passive, especially for those that chew potions like candy. Obviously OP using potions often. Otherwise he would not be so concerned about the mad stat Passives.

This is not my thread, you are picking on the wrong person. And I am with you as far as the potion passive goes, I actually think it is a strong passive and unique.

Junkogen

xblackroxe wrote: »

The problem with this idea is that it wouldn't change a thing. Ofcourse people could also put points into other attributes but why would they? The thing this would change is only that people would just start stacking only into damage and crit instead of before needing to stack magicka too.
Hybrids still won't be viable. Also you would still put all points into the resectivd attribute because you need as much ressources as possible to sustain.

It would make the races equal at least. Then there would be no preferred race for any build. An Argonian would have the same damage potential as an Altmer. That's what I want, balance. It would deversify builds because any race could be anything in angame that revolves mainly around DPS.

Junkogen

Bashev wrote: »

Removing max stats from the damage calculations is not going to help. People will stack regen and power and they will have unlimited resources and strong dps again. What we need is soft caps back.

All of you detractors miss the point. It's about leveling the playing field. Right now certain races get a 5-piece set boost to damage just from their passives. Nords and Argonians don't get anything. They get 9% to the smallest stat pool. Actually resources are more important to tanks than high health anyway. It's a joke. Removing max stats from damage would put all the races on the same playing field in terms of damage potential. That's the point of my argument. It helps balance the ridiculous racial passives imbalance.

Sharee

If increasing max magicka/stamina also increases the damage done, then increasing max health should also decrease the damage received.

That way stat pool contribution would at least be consistent across the three stats.

susmitds

Junkogen wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Removing max stats from the damage calculations is not going to help. People will stack regen and power and they will have unlimited resources and strong dps again. What we need is soft caps back.

All of you detractors miss the point. It's about leveling the playing field. Right now certain races get a 5-piece set boost to damage just from their passives. Nords and Argonians don't get anything. They get 9% to the smallest stat pool. Actually resources are more important to tanks than high health anyway. It's a joke. Removing max stats from damage would put all the races on the same playing field in terms of damage potential. That's the point of my argument. It helps balance the ridiculous racial passives imbalance.

Max stats are not the only racials that increase DPS.
The Khajiit racial Carnage that gives extra crit. chance increase DPS even higher than max stat increase.

nordsavage

CyrusArya wrote: »

Removing damage from max stats would destroy build variety, not diversify it. Right now, there are multiple avenues to reach sufficient damage. This allows you to build characters based around other stats and still have acceptable damage. Removing max stats from the calculations means everyone will be only be stacking weapon/spell damage and nothing else. You don't seem to grasp that removing damage from max stats would just a shift the rules of min maxing to a different direction, not suddenly make all races equal like some socialist fantasy.

Also, while not having a max stats buff is a hindrance from a min/max perspectives, 3-4K max stats will not hold you back from completeing any content or being competitive in PvP. If you want buffs to argonian racials, ask for it. But don't demand that the rest of us be nerfed for making good build decisions cus you wanna role play as a lizard or w/e. Race changes are coming and at that time you can enjoy the benefits of a good race for dps, if that's what you want. If you're the type that's gonna play a suboptimal race regardless, then don't demand game mechanics be catered to your personal whims.

Incorrect. Max stat calculations encourage minimizing health/survivability, regen/reduction and any type of hybridization and utility as well as leaving certain races underpowered in comparison. That 3-4k stat you say does not make a difference is actually a 10% or greater loss in dps. I am not arguing for or against but your argument is wrong.

susmitds

nordsavage wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Removing damage from max stats would destroy build variety, not diversify it. Right now, there are multiple avenues to reach sufficient damage. This allows you to build characters based around other stats and still have acceptable damage. Removing max stats from the calculations means everyone will be only be stacking weapon/spell damage and nothing else. You don't seem to grasp that removing damage from max stats would just a shift the rules of min maxing to a different direction, not suddenly make all races equal like some socialist fantasy.

Also, while not having a max stats buff is a hindrance from a min/max perspectives, 3-4K max stats will not hold you back from completeing any content or being competitive in PvP. If you want buffs to argonian racials, ask for it. But don't demand that the rest of us be nerfed for making good build decisions cus you wanna role play as a lizard or w/e. Race changes are coming and at that time you can enjoy the benefits of a good race for dps, if that's what you want. If you're the type that's gonna play a suboptimal race regardless, then don't demand game mechanics be catered to your personal whims.

Incorrect. Max stat calculations encourage minimizing health/survivability, regen/reduction and any type of hybridization and utility as well as leaving certain races underpowered in comparison. That 3-4k stat you say does not make a difference is actually a 10% or greater loss in dps. I am not arguing for or against but your argument is wrong.

@nordsavage

Nope, you are quite wrong.

Check this out.

It explains the increase.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2925506/#Comment_2925506

dday3six

Junkogen wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Removing max stats from the damage calculations is not going to help. People will stack regen and power and they will have unlimited resources and strong dps again. What we need is soft caps back.

All of you detractors miss the point. It's about leveling the playing field. Right now certain races get a 5-piece set boost to damage just from their passives. Nords and Argonians don't get anything. They get 9% to the smallest stat pool. Actually resources are more important to tanks than high health anyway. It's a joke. Removing max stats from damage would put all the races on the same playing field in terms of damage potential. That's the point of my argument. It helps balance the ridiculous racial passives imbalance.

Please detail how any race gets a 5pc bonus equivalent thanks to their passives.

Also you get that Khajiit has a passive that is not connected to resources. The crit damage is already one of the best passives at the moment. If damage no longer scaled with max stats then they'd easily be the best choice for stamina builds. How does that balance anything?

susmitds

dday3six wrote: »

Junkogen wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Removing max stats from the damage calculations is not going to help. People will stack regen and power and they will have unlimited resources and strong dps again. What we need is soft caps back.

All of you detractors miss the point. It's about leveling the playing field. Right now certain races get a 5-piece set boost to damage just from their passives. Nords and Argonians don't get anything. They get 9% to the smallest stat pool. Actually resources are more important to tanks than high health anyway. It's a joke. Removing max stats from damage would put all the races on the same playing field in terms of damage potential. That's the point of my argument. It helps balance the ridiculous racial passives imbalance.

Please detail how any race gets a 5pc bonus equivalent thanks to their passives.

Also you get that Khajiit has a passive that is not connected to resources. The crit damage is already one of the best passives at the moment. If damage no longer scaled with max stats then they'd easily be the best choice for stamina builds. How does that balance anything?

Exactly so at the end, this will lead to nerfing all the powerful racial passives to the ground.

Junkogen

dday3six wrote: »

Junkogen wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Removing max stats from the damage calculations is not going to help. People will stack regen and power and they will have unlimited resources and strong dps again. What we need is soft caps back.

All of you detractors miss the point. It's about leveling the playing field. Right now certain races get a 5-piece set boost to damage just from their passives. Nords and Argonians don't get anything. They get 9% to the smallest stat pool. Actually resources are more important to tanks than high health anyway. It's a joke. Removing max stats from damage would put all the races on the same playing field in terms of damage potential. That's the point of my argument. It helps balance the ridiculous racial passives imbalance.

Please detail how any race gets a 5pc bonus equivalent thanks to their passives.

Also you get that Khajiit has a passive that is not connected to resources. The crit damage is already one of the best passives at the moment. If damage no longer scaled with max stats then they'd easily be the best choice for stamina builds. How does that balance anything?

You get an increase in spell or weapon damage at a ratio of 10.1:1. Using 30k stamina as a quite modest example, many builds go 40k plus, 10% of 30k is 3k. 3k/10.1 is 297 damage. That's about the equivalent of the 5-piece Hundings Rage, no?

Ling

thats would be *** if they would remove it because everyone would only go for regen and spell dmg/weapon dmg, and that would be too easy!!!

now u need a sustain build a balance of all max stat, good regen and dmg! atm u must choose what are good for urself, much dps or good ressource management!

its good how it is in my opinion!

Destruent

Junkogen wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Removing max stats from the damage calculations is not going to help. People will stack regen and power and they will have unlimited resources and strong dps again. What we need is soft caps back.

All of you detractors miss the point. It's about leveling the playing field. Right now certain races get a 5-piece set boost to damage just from their passives. Nords and Argonians don't get anything. They get 9% to the smallest stat pool. Actually resources are more important to tanks than high health anyway. It's a joke. Removing max stats from damage would put all the races on the same playing field in terms of damage potential. That's the point of my argument. It helps balance the ridiculous racial passives imbalance.

No, it wouldn't.

Altmers > Argonians and nord bc they have:
- better sustain (more magicka, regen)
- more damage (4% inc. elemental damage)

I don't think it's so bad to have races more suited as tanks, some are better as casters and some are better for stam-dps. You can participate in the endgame with any class/race/role combination. So where is the problem? If you choose a tanking race and want to dps you just made a wrong decission, btu race change is coming and you can choose another race to do more dps.

dday3six

Junkogen wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Junkogen wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Removing max stats from the damage calculations is not going to help. People will stack regen and power and they will have unlimited resources and strong dps again. What we need is soft caps back.

All of you detractors miss the point. It's about leveling the playing field. Right now certain races get a 5-piece set boost to damage just from their passives. Nords and Argonians don't get anything. They get 9% to the smallest stat pool. Actually resources are more important to tanks than high health anyway. It's a joke. Removing max stats from damage would put all the races on the same playing field in terms of damage potential. That's the point of my argument. It helps balance the ridiculous racial passives imbalance.

Please detail how any race gets a 5pc bonus equivalent thanks to their passives.

Also you get that Khajiit has a passive that is not connected to resources. The crit damage is already one of the best passives at the moment. If damage no longer scaled with max stats then they'd easily be the best choice for stamina builds. How does that balance anything?

You get an increase in spell or weapon damage at a ratio of 10.1:1. Using 30k stamina as a quite modest example, many builds go 40k plus, 10% of 30k is 3k. 3k/10.1 is 297 damage. That's about the equivalent of the 5-piece Hundings Rage, no?

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2925506/#Comment_2925506

First, I'd direct to this comment by susmitds for the excellent breakdown about Stamina scaling and passive increases.

Hunding's is weapon damage, it's not the same as tooltip damage. Each ability has it's own coefficient. Some scale better with weapon damage, and some scale better with max Stamina. Also their are jump points when abilities will get better scaling. For example, a skill might see a larger increase from 37k to 40k vs 40k to 43k even though it's a 3k increase either way.

Hunding's adds an average damage increase of 5-6%. 10% max Stamina is 2-3%. Also keep in mind that as far as PVE is concerned. Khajiit outperforms both Reguard and Imperial.

Racial passives are likely to see overhauls once race change is a available. There's no need to redo how damage is calculated, forcing everyone to start from scratch. There are imbalances among the races, but it is a much easier transition for the playerbase to balance the passives themselves. The only hold up is a race change option.

Junkogen

Ling wrote: »

thats would be *** if they would remove it because everyone would only go for regen and spell dmg/weapon dmg, and that would be too easy!!!

now u need a sustain build a balance of all max stat, good regen and dmg! atm u must choose what are good for urself, much dps or good ressource management!

its good how it is in my opinion!

That makes no sense. Right now, all people do is max their mag or Stam to achieve max dmg. The only difference would be that all races would be on equal footing. The people against this are just clinging to their unfair advantage. I have yet to see a valid argument against what I've suggested. The only acceptable alternative, IMO, would be the return of soft caps.

And talk about screwing over the playebase. That's exactly what they did to Nords and Argonians when they removed soft caps. The same for people that chose their characters before stamina builds were viable. Their are so many changes that have ruined player's character choices. If anything, my proposed change would actually reverse that and balance the races once again. You can't tell me that Nord and Argonians are balanced compare to a Redguard for stamina or Altmer for magicka.

Destruent

Junkogen wrote: »

Ling wrote: »

thats would be *** if they would remove it because everyone would only go for regen and spell dmg/weapon dmg, and that would be too easy!!!

now u need a sustain build a balance of all max stat, good regen and dmg! atm u must choose what are good for urself, much dps or good ressource management!

its good how it is in my opinion!

That makes no sense. Right now, all people do is max their mag or Stam to achieve max dmg. The only difference would be that all races would be on equal footing. The people against this are just clinging to their unfair advantage. I have yet to see a valid argument against what I've suggested. The only acceptable alternative, IMO, would be the return of soft caps.

And talk about screwing over the playebase. That's exactly what they did to Nords and Argonians when they removed soft caps. The same for people that chose their characters before stamina builds were viable. Their are so many changes that have ruined player's character choices. If anything, my proposed change would actually reverse that and balance the races once again. You can't tell me that Nord and Argonians are balanced compare to a Redguard for stamina or Altmer for magicka.

No, but they are better for tanking. There is a difference between "balance" and "everything is equally good".

dday3six

Junkogen wrote: »

Ling wrote: »

thats would be *** if they would remove it because everyone would only go for regen and spell dmg/weapon dmg, and that would be too easy!!!

now u need a sustain build a balance of all max stat, good regen and dmg! atm u must choose what are good for urself, much dps or good ressource management!

its good how it is in my opinion!

That makes no sense. Right now, all people do is max their mag or Stam to achieve max dmg. The only difference would be that all races would be on equal footing. The people against this are just clinging to their unfair advantage. I have yet to see a valid argument against what I've suggested. The only acceptable alternative, IMO, would be the return of soft caps.

And talk about screwing over the playebase. That's exactly what they did to Nords and Argonians when they removed soft caps. The same for people that chose their characters before stamina builds were viable. Their are so many changes that have ruined player's character choices. If anything, my proposed change would actually reverse that and balance the races once again. You can't tell me that Nord and Argonians are balanced compare to a Redguard for stamina or Altmer for magicka.

I'm not sure where you've been but crit is the name of the game right now. More than max resources.

So what about the races like Khajiit, Dunmer, and Altmer who all have damage bonuses not tied to max stats?

Frankly you sound more like you want to punish everyone else rather than balance anything.