Remove max stats from damage calculations

Junkogen

The title is self-explanatory. As an Argonian player (full disclosure), it's ridiculous that my DPS will never be near as good as any other race except a Nord simply because of racial passives. This game is about damage @ZOS_RichLambert @Wrobel @ZOS_Finn @ZOS_BrianWheeler . For better or worse, you designed the game like this. Argonians and Nords are at a disadvantage to every other race because they don't get a max stat boost that matters. Fact!

Maelstrom Arena is about DPS. PvP is about DPS. PvE is very much about DPS. So why put two races at a disadvantage, in the same faction no less?

Also, why should max stats apply to damage? Shouldn't it be enough that those races get a higher resource pool? Health is not a resource. While important, it can not be used to execute abilities. It's just a passive resource, whereas magicka and Stamina are usable. It's simply not balanced to hinder two races like that. This has been an ongoing issue since the removal of soft caps. Why not just level the playing field by divorcing stamina and magicka from damage calculations? I've heard this idea tossed around, but why isn't it being taken more seriously?

Is there a valid reason for designing two races to just be at a natural disadvantage?

Also, the potion passive? Come on, why is this still in the game after all these changes? It would be nice to get actual explanations as to how these things are balanced. It seems like it makes sense to you guys, but nobody else.

Lysette

IMO this damage calculation limits the game play to just a few min/max builds, instead to have a huge variety of viable hybrid builds instead, where not any enemy is to be expected to have certain abilities and strength, but where it is a surprise. To artificially reduce the amount of viable builds by min/max mechanics is not really clever, is it?- More variety leads to people wanting more characters and more characters means they will stay longer in the game and pay more - see it like this, ZOS.

idk

Each class has advantages for certain builds. Some more then others. At that, we all had access to much information before choosing which race to roll with each character. It's why I rolled a Breton Templar and high elf first day this game was out.

Even back then all racial Passives played a roll while it is a bigger roll today. With that, have no idea why people complain because of their choice.

In closing, you'll soon be able to chenge your racial Passives so you can choose ones more to your liking. Crown store sales.

Lysette

I choose a race for the race, not for it's passives. To me a character is a person, not a bunch of numbers, and it's culture and attitude matter to me more than anything else. I am for that my character develops her abilities in a natural way, choosing what is currently best for her progress, without to have a far goal (which she would not have, if there would not be meta information and so I do not use that meta-information when my character is making decisions, I make them from her perspective). So I am basically against meta-builds and all what supports that. More variety would water down meta builds.

CyrusArya

Removing damage from max stats would destroy build variety, not diversify it. Right now, there are multiple avenues to reach sufficient damage. This allows you to build characters based around other stats and still have acceptable damage. Removing max stats from the calculations means everyone will be only be stacking weapon/spell damage and nothing else. You don't seem to grasp that removing damage from max stats would just a shift the rules of min maxing to a different direction, not suddenly make all races equal like some socialist fantasy.

Also, while not having a max stats buff is a hindrance from a min/max perspectives, 3-4K max stats will not hold you back from completeing any content or being competitive in PvP. If you want buffs to argonian racials, ask for it. But don't demand that the rest of us be nerfed for making good build decisions cus you wanna role play as a lizard or w/e. Race changes are coming and at that time you can enjoy the benefits of a good race for dps, if that's what you want. If you're the type that's gonna play a suboptimal race regardless, then don't demand game mechanics be catered to your personal whims.

Lysette

Well, first I am not demanding anything, I am debating things from my perspective. Secondly, I am entitled to my play style just like you are entitled to yours. If all is just debated from a pvp perspective, than one of the main purposes of this game, role play (it is a role playing game, don't forget that), would be neglected. My view as a role player matters as well. And as a role player I really dislike meta-gaming and player-centric views, instead of character-centric and from the character's perspective.

Edit: and what variety is that, if min/max is the only viable option?- Given a certain race, the choice is just digital - either all in max or all in stamina. That is not variety at all. All the many hybrid builds will just lead to non-viable and non-competitive options. So don''t tell me, that going away from stamina/magicka scaling would lead to less variety - there is no less variety possible to just a digital choice - all other is more.

dday3six

Racial passives need to be overhauled. However that cannot happen until a race change option is available. Uprooting how the game is set up is not the answer. Argonians are lacking, fix them then. Not redesign the game so no one's racial choice matters anymore.

Bfish22090

bad idea
re roll high elf

sirrmattus

when db hits. everyone will be rerolling for a argonian. Poison resist ftw

Marktoneth3

Because skills only scale with stam and mag not health

susmitds

sirrmattus wrote: »

when db hits. everyone will be rerolling for a argonian. Poison resist ftw

Nope that poison is not actually poison damage.

susmitds

Junkogen wrote: »

The title is self-explanatory. As an Argonian player (full disclosure), it's ridiculous that my DPS will never be near as good as any other race except a Nord simply because of racial passives. This game is about damage @ZOS_RichLambert @Wrobel @ZOS_Finn @ZOS_BrianWheeler . For better or worse, you designed the game like this. Argonians and Nords are at a disadvantage to every other race because they don't get a max stat boost that matters. Fact!

Maelstrom Arena is about DPS. PvP is about DPS. PvE is very much about DPS. So why put two races at a disadvantage, in the same faction no less?

Also, why should max stats apply to damage? Shouldn't it be enough that those races get a higher resource pool? Health is not a resource. While important, it can not be used to execute abilities. It's just a passive resource, whereas magicka and Stamina are usable. It's simply not balanced to hinder two races like that. This has been an ongoing issue since the removal of soft caps. Why not just level the playing field by divorcing stamina and magicka from damage calculations? I've heard this idea tossed around, but why isn't it being taken more seriously?

Is there a valid reason for designing two races to just be at a natural disadvantage?

Also, the potion passive? Come on, why is this still in the game after all these changes? It would be nice to get actual explanations as to how these things are balanced. It seems like it makes sense to you guys, but nobody else.

Ever heard of the Argonian Alchemist Nightblade?
The potion passive is awesome. Much better than "Robust"

DDemon

Argonians are lesser creatures, why should they get the same abilities as others?

dday3six

Lysette wrote: »

Well, first I am not demanding anything, I am debating things from my perspective. Secondly, I am entitled to my play style just like you are entitled to yours. If all is just debated from a pvp perspective, than one of the main purposes of this game, role play (it is a role playing game, don't forget that), would be neglected. My view as a role player matters as well. And as a role player I really dislike meta-gaming and player-centric views, instead of character-centric and from the character's perspective.

Edit: and what variety is that, if min/max is the only viable option?- Given a certain race, the choice is just digital - either all in max or all in stamina. That is not variety at all. All the many hybrid builds will just lead to non-viable and non-competitive options. So don''t tell me, that going away from stamina/magicka scaling would lead to less variety - there is no less variety possible to just a digital choice - all other is more.

If hybrids were viable that's all there would be. Players would mix and match until the best set of skills were found, then that would be the new bar. At least with stat scaling Stamina builds get to exist. That's actually more diverse than before stat scaling was introduced. Hybrids were just Magical builds that dipped into Stamina skills, getting all the utility Magicka offered without any of the drawbacks. While variety is important so is balance.

Rune_Relic

For a minute there I thought you meant no hardcaps......then I see you meant dont use resource scaling.
100% agree with your conclusion that the resoruce system is terribly imbalanced and unbalancable in its current form.

It needs fixing yes. BUT........what goes in its place ?

I couldnt see any way to rectify the problem without.
1 physical dps resource
1 magical dps resoruce
1 tanking resource (arguably magical/physical versions)
1 healing resource (arguably magical/physical again)
Then on top of that you need a lifeforce which should techincally just be level based and independant.

So I suggested;
unused points = healing scaling/resource
health (aka strength) = tanking scaling/resource
stamina = physical dps scaling/resource
magicka = magical dps scaling/resoruce
total point (level) = lifeforce
..which means changing the attribute UI bars a little but the numbers are already there for the calcs.

Racial passives would/should have been a token gesture to differentiate the races.....not a must have power grab.
Would have been better to have races have unique access to certain doors etc.
This makes all races a requriement but not OP or nor is it skill gated access.
Gated racials could have been a really poweful way to bring the whole community together without population issues (open world only).

eg. A nord is not expected to know altmer cultural secrets..nor vice versa. But a native is. Especially magical seals/wards protected by bloodlines or cultural style traps (based on native terrain).

idk

Lysette wrote: »

Well, first I am not demanding anything, I am debating things from my perspective. Secondly, I am entitled to my play style just like you are entitled to yours. If all is just debated from a pvp perspective, than one of the main purposes of this game, role play (it is a role playing game, don't forget that), would be neglected. My view as a role player matters as well. And as a role player I really dislike meta-gaming and player-centric views, instead of character-centric and from the character's perspective.

Edit: and what variety is that, if min/max is the only viable option?- Given a certain race, the choice is just digital - either all in max or all in stamina. That is not variety at all. All the many hybrid builds will just lead to non-viable and non-competitive options. So don''t tell me, that going away from stamina/magicka scaling would lead to less variety - there is no less variety possible to just a digital choice - all other is more.

Your thread title and first sentence strongly indicate you are demanding something here.

At that, the Arogonian, which you seem to be playing, does get a max health passive. This isn't as juicy or big as most mad magika/stamina Passives but mad stat is still mad stat. Adding more health means being able to put more into mag/stam.

And the potion passive isn't that bad. Very interesting passive, especially for those that chew potions like candy. Obviously OP using potions often. Otherwise he would not be so concerned about the mad stat Passives.

Brrrofski

susmitds wrote: »

Junkogen wrote: »

The title is self-explanatory. As an Argonian player (full disclosure), it's ridiculous that my DPS will never be near as good as any other race except a Nord simply because of racial passives. This game is about damage @ZOS_RichLambert @Wrobel @ZOS_Finn @ZOS_BrianWheeler . For better or worse, you designed the game like this. Argonians and Nords are at a disadvantage to every other race because they don't get a max stat boost that matters. Fact!

Maelstrom Arena is about DPS. PvP is about DPS. PvE is very much about DPS. So why put two races at a disadvantage, in the same faction no less?

Also, why should max stats apply to damage? Shouldn't it be enough that those races get a higher resource pool? Health is not a resource. While important, it can not be used to execute abilities. It's just a passive resource, whereas magicka and Stamina are usable. It's simply not balanced to hinder two races like that. This has been an ongoing issue since the removal of soft caps. Why not just level the playing field by divorcing stamina and magicka from damage calculations? I've heard this idea tossed around, but why isn't it being taken more seriously?

Is there a valid reason for designing two races to just be at a natural disadvantage?

Also, the potion passive? Come on, why is this still in the game after all these changes? It would be nice to get actual explanations as to how these things are balanced. It seems like it makes sense to you guys, but nobody else.

Ever heard of the Argonian Alchemist Nightblade?
The potion passive is awesome. Much better than "Robust"

No, they don't exist.

That potion passive is bad.

Why would you take it over a high elf/breton for magica NB or redguard/orc/wood elf

Resipsa131

Swim Speed FTW! Seriously though, they do okay as a tank but honestly I dislike passives that increase max stats it seems lazy from an idea standpoint.

CP5

As far as i'm aware, during an ESO live a little while back this question was addressed. They seemed to imply that they were going to do this (as to help players do something other than stack all magicka/stamina) but it involves a lot of back end work so it won't be in for some time.

Burning_Talons

Please remove it

MisterBastahrd

I'm of the opinion that racial bonuses should have nothing to do with damage, directly or indirectly, and that bonus from attributes should be taken from the attribute allocation itself instead of the raw stamina / magicka stat. Ebonheart is at a gigantic disadvantage when rolling characters because two of the three races are bottom barrel for PVP. Swimming? Cold resist? Stop smoking crack.

susmitds

MisterBastahrd wrote: »

I'm of the opinion that racial bonuses should have nothing to do with damage, directly or indirectly, and that bonus from attributes should be taken from the attribute allocation itself instead of the raw stamina / magicka stat. Ebonheart is at a gigantic disadvantage when rolling characters because two of the three races are bottom barrel for PVP. Swimming? Cold resist? Stop smoking crack.

@MisterBastahrd

At least, the Ebonheart guys are all hardy and tanky.
Look at the Dominion races. All glass cannons.

Wreuntzylla

susmitds wrote: »

Junkogen wrote: »

The title is self-explanatory. As an Argonian player (full disclosure), it's ridiculous that my DPS will never be near as good as any other race except a Nord simply because of racial passives. This game is about damage @ZOS_RichLambert @Wrobel @ZOS_Finn @ZOS_BrianWheeler . For better or worse, you designed the game like this. Argonians and Nords are at a disadvantage to every other race because they don't get a max stat boost that matters. Fact!

Maelstrom Arena is about DPS. PvP is about DPS. PvE is very much about DPS. So why put two races at a disadvantage, in the same faction no less?

Also, why should max stats apply to damage? Shouldn't it be enough that those races get a higher resource pool? Health is not a resource. While important, it can not be used to execute abilities. It's just a passive resource, whereas magicka and Stamina are usable. It's simply not balanced to hinder two races like that. This has been an ongoing issue since the removal of soft caps. Why not just level the playing field by divorcing stamina and magicka from damage calculations? I've heard this idea tossed around, but why isn't it being taken more seriously?

Is there a valid reason for designing two races to just be at a natural disadvantage?

Also, the potion passive? Come on, why is this still in the game after all these changes? It would be nice to get actual explanations as to how these things are balanced. It seems like it makes sense to you guys, but nobody else.

Ever heard of the Argonian Alchemist Nightblade?
The potion passive is awesome. Much better than "Robust"

I had to check to make sure this post wasn't pre-1.6... cuz you know, they nerfed it...

GrumpyDuckling

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Each class has advantages for certain builds. Some more then others. At that, we all had access to much information before choosing which race to roll with each character. It's why I rolled a Breton Templar and high elf first day this game was out.

Even back then all racial Passives played a roll while it is a bigger roll today. With that, have no idea why people complain because of their choice.

In closing, you'll soon be able to chenge your racial Passives so you can choose ones more to your liking. Crown store sales.

When/where has ZOS said that we will be able to change racial passives and "choose ones more to [our] liking?"

dtm_samuraib16_ESO

Junkogen wrote: »

The title is self-explanatory. As an Argonian player (full disclosure), it's ridiculous that my DPS will never be near as good as any other race except a Nord simply because of racial passives....

I am playing an Orc, but he feels weak.
Zos, you should give the Orc far more resilience and incredible damage since they are strong.
They are not smart, but I love to see an Orc mega-caster.

Thank you.

Woeler

Sure the magicka makes a difference, but never near as good? No, that is just you or "that player" and not the magicka difference.

QuebraRegra

Junkogen wrote: »

This game is about damage @ZOS_RichLambert @Wrobel @ZOS_Finn @ZOS_BrianWheeler . For better or worse, you designed the game like this..

BINGO! There's the problem right there.. the only build that matters is the one that does the most damage. There goes any hybrid build or quite frankly anything that doesn't follow the dmg max meta.

boring.

Suggestion, rework CPs, re-institute caps, and re-balance gear sets.... Bring some variety/originality back to the game.

METAMETAMETA *snore*

AshTal

The racials are unbalance and broken

Argonian's were terrible when we had soft caps and max stats didn't influence damage now they are even worse.

I agree we should nerf a race twice not just for max pool but also for max damage.

On the plus side now poisons will be uber maybe our disease/poison resistance wont be a joke.

Savage_Audacity

Nords are a fine race choice. Dps isnt the only role in the game so every race shouldnt be based around DPS builds. Many would argue that Nords already make the best tanks so why buff them? I agree that argonians are slightly underpowered but they do have some advantages. The poison resistance is a solid passive (basically a argonian werewolf is the counterpart to a dunmer vamp). Also I believe there is a passive for argonians that gives you a small percentage of all your max stats back when you drink any potion and that is definitely an advantage. The two passives that i think make argonians lesser than other races are the swin speed which is entirely useless in 99% of the game and the increased healing recieved by 8%. However if that passive were changed to say increase healing recieved by 20% then i think argonians could make for some very solid builds. An argonian werewolf with positive poison resistance and much stronger healing capabilities. A magicka nightblade or templar DPS able to have increased survivability over other races due to stronger heals on themselves and better resource management due to potion passive etc. I understand your point about not being able to min/max with an argonian but not all players/builds are meant to mim/max and I think with just a few small changes argonians could make great options for self sustaining DPS builds.

susmitds

Savage_Audacity wrote: »

Nords are a fine race choice. Dps isnt the only role in the game so every race shouldnt be based around DPS builds. Many would argue that Nords already make the best tanks so why buff them? I agree that argonians are slightly underpowered but they do have some advantages. The poison resistance is a solid passive (basically a argonian werewolf is the counterpart to a dunmer vamp). Also I believe there is a passive for argonians that gives you a small percentage of all your max stats back when you drink any potion and that is definitely an advantage. The two passives that i think make argonians lesser than other races are the swin speed which is entirely useless in 99% of the game and the increased healing recieved by 8%. However if that passive were changed to say increase healing recieved by 20% then i think argonians could make for some very solid builds. An argonian werewolf with positive poison resistance and much stronger healing capabilities. A magicka nightblade or templar DPS able to have increased survivability over other races due to stronger heals on themselves and better resource management due to potion passive etc. I understand your point about not being able to min/max with an argonian but not all players/builds are meant to mim/max and I think with just a few small changes argonians could make great options for self sustaining DPS builds.

AshTal wrote: »

The racials are unbalance and broken

Argonian's were terrible when we had soft caps and max stats didn't influence damage now they are even worse.

I agree we should nerf a race twice not just for max pool but also for max damage.

On the plus side now poisons will be uber maybe our disease/poison resistance wont be a joke.

Bosmer gets the same resistance but is much better overall.
The 8% extra healing received and potion passive is quite useful actually.

MisterBastahrd

susmitds wrote: »

MisterBastahrd wrote: »

I'm of the opinion that racial bonuses should have nothing to do with damage, directly or indirectly, and that bonus from attributes should be taken from the attribute allocation itself instead of the raw stamina / magicka stat. Ebonheart is at a gigantic disadvantage when rolling characters because two of the three races are bottom barrel for PVP. Swimming? Cold resist? Stop smoking crack.

@MisterBastahrd

At least, the Ebonheart guys are all hardy and tanky.
Look at the Dominion races. All glass cannons.

Glass cannons get the lion's share of the kills in the current meta.