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Crafting for Others - High Risk, Low Reward

Pandorii
Pandorii
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Hello Everyone!

This thread is for people who find themselves frequently making armor for others. How do you deal with it? I regret ever letting it be known to friends, guildies, and randoms that I had level 50 crafts and was researching traits. I get too too many PMs asking me to make them stuff! I'm especially bothered by the randoms who just say "can you make me this?" without even bothering to say "hi. how is your day going?" Mind you, this isn't a venting post. I wanted to talk about the crafting system through the lens of the crafter: how it's high risk and low reward.

Crafting has a lot of moving parts! It has the styles (which currently, you cannot preview and have to have a semi-photographic memory of what they look like or resort to the esofashion website). It has the weights, traits, set type, and color. As a crafter, I have been expected to a. know what style is best (wtf), b. know what armor sets are best for their class (wtf), c. know which pieces to make heavy, medium, or light, depending on their undaunted level (wtf). d. I am expected to know where the crafting locations are (or look it up...see a trend here).

AND every once in a while, you get that one person who says "I don't have any mats, can I just pay you?" e. Lastly, you're sometimes expected to have every single material available in the game!

As a crafter, I spent countless hours monitoring my trait research. I spent countless mats and resources to get traits (from friends or buy them), especially those pesky nirnhoned pieces. On top of that, I have to be able to do all those things listed above? We do it for fun. We do it for completion. Some of us do it for profit, but I don't think the pay is ever enough for what they are asking us to do. One little slip up, like forgetting to toggle to the crafting set and making it normal will result in a net loss (resources and gold) for the crafter! Recent example, I offered to make vet 16 armor for a friend. He failed to mention whether he wanted the light chest piece in robe or jerkin. I made a Robe, and I found out later he wanted jerkin. I had to use my own mats to remake it.

My solution: I tell people I will them armor if they supply the mats. I know I'm not the only one with this policy. Yet, how many times have I gotten mats in the mail without the trait gem. Sapphires don't grow on trees! How many times have you had someone ask you to make them a full set of xivkyn armor? They provided the mats but no style material; so it's costing me, the crafter, 7k (for the charcoal) to help them? WTF?

People aren't supplying all the mats! Non-crafters don't understand how many moving parts. They don't think to tell us exactly what they want. They leave us with "you can pick the style" and send us no style gems. Or they'll say "leave it white" even though they know we're going to make it green, or blue, or PURPLE. They send us knee deep into enemy territory to make clever alchemist with complete disregard for the precious soul gems we spend to get there.

Now that I've rambled enough. I thought I'd paint a picture. What are some solutions to simplify the crafting process? Here's where I need help from my fellow crafters.

First, I propose that deconstructing items actually reimburse you 100 percent what you used. If you accidentally craft the wrong thing, you can just redo your work without penalty. Why do we only get 1 temper, rosin, or wax from deconstructing gold items when it took 8 to make it that way? (excluding dropped gold items).

Second, allow crafters to preview styles. Sheesh.

Third, streamline the crafting site process. Maybe once you unlock a site, you can make that set in any location.

What are yall's ideas? I don't want to say "no" to friends anymore when they ask me to make them stuff just because it's complex and ends up being a resource and gold net loss for me. I want to play with all the styles I have (every single one that is out) and make a lot of pretty things. Help!
  • Pandorii
    Pandorii
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    Megalex1 wrote: »
    i ask for payment upfront now. no more working for tips

    What happens if you mess up the order? Do you use your own resources?

    OMG yes!!!!!! I hate the "crafting for tips" model. Either a. the tip is so pathetic, or b. they don't tip at all. Sheesh.
  • Callous2208
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    At this point, I pretty much just craft for friends. Friends pay me a fair amount for my time and materials, though I am very generous with my pricing. Hell, as long as it's not v16 purple or gold, I usually do it for free. My bank is stuffed with all the various trait gems and style materials, as well as low and high tier mats. Come on crafting bags! What I have them do is send me a mail with everything they need made. I have them include by item: Style, weight, trait, level, enchantment, set, color quality. This way I have a blueprint to go off of, once I'm out in some odd location making the sets.
  • Twilix01
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    I only agree with crafting previews. I don't think I like the idea of being able to deconstruct an item for 100% of what's used to make them, would rival actually going out and grabbing nodes for gathering materials. I am also against being able to make any crafting set anywhere once you discover them. There needs to be a reason to visit these more than once, and if they were to add in crafting stations in player housing (which is coming this year) then you'll be able to do all your crafting in your house and that from seeing how WoW handled it's garrisons I am not in support of at all.
  • Reevster
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    I don't bother usually, most of the time its not worth the effort.

    Sometimes if the person says they will pay this much in chat etc and if I feel its enough I may offer to make said item/s.
    Edited by Reevster on May 1, 2016 5:20PM
  • Pandorii
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    For me, I ask a few things.

    1. The customer must know exactly what they want. I won't make "the best looking motif" or "the best dps set". If someone asks for that, I tell them to go do some research and come back later. Also on any order, I have the customer send a detailed mail. If there is any confusion after the items are received, I can refer back to the order. I also use mailr to keep a copy of my sent mail so I know exactly what items I sent to them if I use mail for the trade.

    2. I do use my own mats. I have a bank full of mats that I use for crafting and for custom orders. I find it's less work to just use my mats than have someone send their own and have me check it for accuracy. It also allows me to sell items for a higher price as I include mat cost. I accept mats from guildies and friends though.

    3. The customer usually pays up front. If it's under a few thousand gold worth of mats, I may send cod or meet up and trade after it's complete, but on large set orders of v16 items, gold is paid up front. I take no offense if the buyer doesn't want to do this but if I don't know them, I take the risk out of my side of the deal.

    Wonderful Ideas! Your response no. 1 actually reminded me of something that I think might help the crafting process. Having a feature to allow us to see our sent mail. Have any of you ever had an incident where you made items for someone and sent it to them, but they claim later to have not gotten them? It's only happened to me once when I had a lot of orders. It could have been my mistake, but I'm pretty good at getting things done.
  • kawazu874b16_ESO
    You might, for example, do a little chart (like an "excel" sheet) with mats required for most commonly asked crafts
    and copy/paste them in a mail you would send to the people who need something, the mail asking for listed mats in return.
    and will only craft when you get everything from sender. This requires no change to the game nor addons.
  • Sheezabeast
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    One habit I have when crafting for others, is that I link every single piece before I make it, no matter if I'm making something easy, or research. Prevents issues with blame for incorrect crafting.
    Grand Master Crafter, Beta baby who grew with the game. PC/NA. @Sheezabeast if you have crafting needs!
  • Pandorii
    Pandorii
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    You might, for example, do a little chart (like an "excel" sheet) with mats required for most commonly asked crafts
    and copy/paste them in a mail you would send to the people who need something, the mail asking for listed mats in return.
    and will only craft when you get everything from sender. This requires no change to the game nor addons.

    I've been definitely thinking about doing that. It goes along the lines with @Callous2208's strategy. It would essentially be a blank template that tells the non-crafter what they need to tell me in order for me to have a complete order: style, level, trait, weight, piece, color, and set (and location of the crafting site). If they don't have all the blanks filled, they haven't done their part of the bargain.

    Wonderful ideas! <3

    I think this still does suggest that there are symptoms of crafting fatigue. I'm starting to feel like @Reevster. It's not worth the trouble. I also feel like @Callous2208, I only really do it for friends. I wish it wasn't so though. There are a lot of people out there in need of crafters. I used to have a Sunday Crafting Day event on Twitch where I would stream for viewers. That got exhausting hella fast. T.T
  • Elsonso
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    Pandorii wrote: »

    Crafting has a lot of moving parts! It has the styles (which currently, you cannot preview and have to have a semi-photographic memory of what they look like or resort to the esofashion website). It has the weights, traits, set type, and color. As a crafter, I have been expected to a. know what style is best (wtf), b. know what armor sets are best for their class (wtf), c. know which pieces to make heavy, medium, or light, depending on their undaunted level (wtf). d. I am expected to know where the crafting locations are (or look it up...see a trend here).

    Not to put too fine a point on it, but yes, you should know what the armor you make does and what it is good for. You should know where to make it. As a crafter in this game, you are an artisan, not some clerk at the town market.

    Pandorii wrote: »
    As a crafter, I spent countless hours monitoring my trait research. I spent countless mats and resources to get traits (from friends or buy them), especially those pesky nirnhoned pieces. On top of that, I have to be able to do all those things listed above? We do it for fun. We do it for completion. Some of us do it for profit, but I don't think the pay is ever enough for what they are asking us to do. One little slip up, like forgetting to toggle to the crafting set and making it normal will result in a net loss (resources and gold) for the crafter!

    Again, you are the artisan. You should know what you are doing.
    Pandorii wrote: »
    People aren't supplying all the mats! Non-crafters don't understand how many moving parts. They don't think to tell us exactly what they want. They leave us with "you can pick the style" and send us no style gems. Or they'll say "leave it white" even though they know we're going to make it green, or blue, or PURPLE. They send us knee deep into enemy territory to make clever alchemist with complete disregard for the precious soul gems we spend to get there.

    At the risk of sounding like a broken record...

    Anyway, if you can't farm supplies, you demand all components up front.

    Team Rigurt!

    Elsonso on PC NA and EU since 2014
    ElsonsoJannus on XBOX NA since 2021
    ElsonsoJannus on PS4 NA 2015 - 2021

  • Pandorii
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    @lordrichter Not to put a too fine point on it, but I am wondering how many people agree that it's a crafters duty to be a well of knowledge on set combinations for the variety of different builds there are in the game?

    Sounds a bit role playish, but is it not enough that we have spent time to develop a unique skill set with patience and perseverance that allows us to be an asset in our community (guild or otherwise) and to our friends?

    I feel like you're underscoring the time and effort it takes to a. have traits researched, b. located crafting sites, and c. gathered, purchased, and learned style motifs.

    =D Food for thought. <3
  • Elsonso
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    Pandorii wrote: »
    @lordrichter Not to put a too fine point on it, but I am wondering how many people agree that it's a crafters duty to be a well of knowledge on set combinations for the variety of different builds there are in the game?

    Sounds a bit role playish, but is it not enough that we have spent time to develop a unique skill set with patience and perseverance that allows us to be an asset in our community (guild or otherwise) and to our friends?

    I feel like you're underscoring the time and effort it takes to a. have traits researched, b. located crafting sites, and c. gathered, purchased, and learned style motifs.

    =D Food for thought. <3

    The bottom line is that you should know more about the craft, the styles, the sets, the materials needed, and the locations than they do. This is not role playing, this is just knowing what you are doing. If you have to look this up on the internet, fine, but don't complain because they should know more than you about what it is you are doing.
    Team Rigurt!

    Elsonso on PC NA and EU since 2014
    ElsonsoJannus on XBOX NA since 2021
    ElsonsoJannus on PS4 NA 2015 - 2021

  • Yinmaigao
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    Pandorii wrote: »
    My solution: I tell people I will them armor if they supply the mats. I know I'm not the only one with this policy. Yet, how many times have I gotten mats in the mail without the trait gem. Sapphires don't grow on trees! How many times have you had someone ask you to make them a full set of xivkyn armor? They provided the mats but no style material; so it's costing me, the crafter, 7k (for the charcoal) to help them? WTF?

    People aren't supplying all the mats! Non-crafters don't understand how many moving parts. They don't think to tell us exactly what they want. They leave us with "you can pick the style" and send us no style gems. Or they'll say "leave it white" even though they know we're going to make it green, or blue, or PURPLE.

    This.

    Drives me mad.

    Don't know how many times I have had a "guildy" ask me to craft something with their mats, only to find out that they don't have charcoal or are "short a few alloys". Not only are these the same people that stiff you for having crafted sets from all over the damn world, but you get called names of you don't "spot them" some alloys/kutas/whatever.

    My solution: eff 'em. If I don't actually know you, ALLmats up front or no deal.
  • lathbury
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    just craft for my self or guildies who help me out with things for these reasons
  • KanedaSyndrome
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    On PC I have a certain protocol people need to adhere to in order for me to craft for them. They need to mail the order via the ingame mail system, they need to include the mats that cost money and they need to pay upfront. I charge 20k for full sets for my time, and for stand alone items I go with 5k. For friends it's free as long as they supply mats.

    Think about what your time is worth, and if you don't think it's worth your time what they're offering, just tell them to find another crafter.
    Edited by KanedaSyndrome on May 1, 2016 6:17PM
    KanedaSyndrome's Suggestions For Game Improvements
    The Fortuitous Collapse of the Wave Equation
    The Best Plans Require No Action
  • dimensional
    dimensional
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    I commission crafted sets from my guildmates *all* the time and I always pay them generously. The problem isn't crafting for others, it's learning how to be selective with those you make deals.
  • nudel
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    Twilix01 wrote: »
    I only agree with crafting previews. I don't think I like the idea of being able to deconstruct an item for 100% of what's used to make them, would rival actually going out and grabbing nodes for gathering materials. I am also against being able to make any crafting set anywhere once you discover them. There needs to be a reason to visit these more than once, and if they were to add in crafting stations in player housing (which is coming this year) then you'll be able to do all your crafting in your house and that from seeing how WoW handled it's garrisons I am not in support of at all.

    I have to agree with @Twilix01 here. Crafting previews would be nice, but full mat return on deconstruction would be imbalanced. It's effectively a gold/ material sink and is needed to keep looting/ harvesting/ trading interesting. Crafting tables are special and unique and should require you to return to craft there. I want more reasons to visit locations other than _____insert pet crafting city here____ not fewer reasons.

    If you're on the PC OP, you should really take a look at Tinydog's Crafting Calculator. This is an invaluable addon for crafting equipment for hire.
    • You can take down an entire order, checking off each as you go and making sure you get an answer from the client, avoiding instances where they wanted a jerkin and you made a robe.
    • Save the order and then open it at a crafting table so you can remember what they wanted without tearing your hair out.
    • Post the order complete with a material cost summary to chat or in a mail to the client to make sure they understand and/or accept the cost to them in gold or materials or even just to confirm the order.

    Seriously give it a try. Other than crafting previews, this one addon should alleviate most of your frustrations.

    As far as best practices for cost go, I confirm with the client twice both what I'm making and what the cost will be upfront. I also never EVER craft for tip only. We agree to a price beforehand. I've had players tip on top of that afterward, but that is at their own discretion and I don't ask for or expect it. Be firm even with friends and guildies. If you don't want to take their gold, but you really don't want to use up your last two Potent Nirncrux or your personal stock of Tempering Alloys, let them know what you want them to provide in order to craft. In my experience, people don't take offense and do appreciate knowing what's expected rather than trying to please you with some nebulous concept of "fair tipping".
  • Pandorii
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    N0TPLAYER2 wrote: »
    Bravo my man. Bravo.

    One dude messaged me out of the blue, asked for help. When I said that costs this much, he laughed and said "I have all the mats because I like having my armor made for free" and I said well I charge. He said "it doesn't take that long" I said, if it doesn't, then go ahead and research 9 traits and make the *** yourself. I haven't heard from him since lol.

    If you want it free, put in the time and earn it! If not be willing to be greatful to others and pay for Their time and knowledge. It's not easy or free!!

    End rant. But great thread op. I feel your pain dude!!

    This is awful. I'm so sorry. What a snotty brat! P.S. I'm a dudette.
  • Pandorii
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    nudel wrote: »
    Twilix01 wrote: »

    If you're on the PC OP, you should really take a look at Tinydog's Crafting Calculator. This is an invaluable addon for crafting equipment for hire.
    • You can take down an entire order, checking off each as you go and making sure you get an answer from the client, avoiding instances where they wanted a jerkin and you made a robe.
    • Save the order and then open it at a crafting table so you can remember what they wanted without tearing your hair out.
    • Post the order complete with a material cost summary to chat or in a mail to the client to make sure they understand and/or accept the cost to them in gold or materials or even just to confirm the order.

    Seriously give it a try. Other than crafting previews, this one addon should alleviate most of your frustrations.

    Amazing! Unfortunately, I'm not on PC. But this is a great suggestion for those who are!
  • Bone_Demon
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    Pandorii wrote: »

    First, I propose that deconstructing items actually reimburse you 100 percent what you used. If you accidentally craft the wrong thing, you can just redo your work without penalty. Why do we only get 1 temper, rosin, or wax from deconstructing gold items when it took 8 to make it that way? (excluding dropped gold items).

    Second, allow crafters to preview styles. Sheesh.

    Third, streamline the crafting site process. Maybe once you unlock a site, you can make that set in any location.

    You've got some very good points in these paragraphs.

    1.The first proposal i think it would be too much to get 100 percent of what you gave. Looked from an RP perspective it doesn't make sense that you should get 100% of what you gave to make the item. Looked from gameplay perspective it would be game breaking for the refined materials economy. I do agree the resources we get are pretty scarce and i think they should make it around 50-60% return.**(**note this should work ONLY on crafted items)

    2.Previewing styles would be awesome.

    3.I like this idea and it can have some different variations. By different variations i mean not just having explored the craft site but if you have actually crafted some items at that crafting site. For example: If i have crafted a full set at some crafting station i should unlock crafting this set at all crafting stations.

    I really hope some of your ideas see the light of day :)
  • jamesharv2005ub17_ESO
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    Only way I work for tips is if you supply all the mats. If Im supplying the mats Im not making the gear till I get paid. My friends of course I will make them things for free. Talking about just random people.
  • k9mouse
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    I also get to many PMs for crafting so do not let it be known how much my Char knows.

    If I craft for someone else, they must supply the mats -- all of them or I will not do any work. I do not use personal mats for them unless I make a mistake.

    They have to tell me what style and traits they want and where for each part besides what crafting bonuses they want in a easy read format. I will not drop what I am doing and make an item for someone, I will do it on my time table -- usually in 24 hours after the order is received.

    I let them do the min / maxing of the bonus and traits -- I just do the crafting work for them.

    I only craft for close friends anymore. I am to busy enjoying the game to do *work* for the general public.

    The other player will agree to these terms (I always tell them upfront) or I will not do any work until the terms are met. Very few other crafters know the same level of knowledge as my crafting char knows and I do not feel bad if I must enforced my terms. I do not charge an arm and leg for my services, but I do charge. Friend and guild mates are half price and close friends are free. People I do not know, full price.

    **Free = free labor, I rarely supply any mats besides the basic ones if I am over stock on them.
    Edited by k9mouse on May 1, 2016 7:02PM
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