The problem with VCoA, VICP and VWGT

Bigevilpeter

They don't just require you to know the tactics, but also require massive dps. As a healer I can't control that very much and usually get people with average dps and no matter how much I can heal, eventually things get messy and we die if we can't kill the boss fast enough.

I'd imagine even if I was a good dps I'd need the other one to be also very good and the healer and tank to do their jobs well.

I did beat all of them on hard mode a couple of times, the problem is actually trying to get the items they drop.

Every 5 teams I get one team that can actually do them and even with that we wipe quite a few times and we all have done them before and know the tactics very well, how can I get Kena helm that way let alone spellpower cure set.

I believe that lowering boss healths while making them invulnerable to do a tactic every now and then will fix the dps race this game has become, but its true these dungeon need a slight nerf so that people without the crazy high dps can actually play them or at least do their dailies!!

failkiwib16_ESO

@Bigevilpeter have you tried to join pve guilds, or invite people to your friends list, so you can farm these dungeons with them?

12k dps is enough to actually farm those dungeons with, but the players have to be good and be willing to learn tactics and mechanics - if they don't, then it gets problematic.

Alternatively try to only farm the first boss, to get Daedric Ember trophies for the trophy vault. Join up with randoms for that, your chances of getting those sets gets higher this way, than trying to complete the whole dungeon with randoms.

Magdalina

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

They don't just require you to know the tactics, but also require massive dps. As a healer I can't control that very much and usually get people with average dps and no matter how much I can heal, eventually things get messy and we die if we can't kill the boss fast enough.

I'd imagine even if I was a good dps I'd need the other one to be also very good and the healer and tank to do their jobs well.

I did beat all of them on hard mode a couple of times, the problem is actually trying to get the items they drop.

Every 5 teams I get one team that can actually do them and even with that we wipe quite a few times and we all have done them before and know the tactics very well, how can I get Kena helm that way let alone spellpower cure set.

I believe that lowering boss healths while making them invulnerable to do a tactic every now and then will fix the dps race this game has become, but its true these dungeon need a slight nerf so that people without the crazy high dps can actually play them or at least do their dailies!!

High dps lets you bypass the mechanics by burning the bosses before their full mechanics come into effect. But in order to simply pass you only need maybe 12k dps and following mechanics. Personally when I pug my biggest issue isn't missing dps so much as people ignoring instructions.
You say "every 5 teams I get 1 team clears it", are you in any PvE guilds? Or perhaps you should start friending the people that can clear it? All it takes is some practice really. Once you get used to people and know how they roll and what they're capable of it becomes a cakewalk. It can be a bit tricky if you're all not used to each other. Not impossible by far, just a bit more of a hassle sometimes.

Also, if your team is good at avoiding damage(and tank's doing job well), you can add quite a significant amount of dps as a healer. If you're templar healer jesus beaming bosses at <50% health in particular is very, very good.

Also, platform? If you're NA PC I can show you how it works Or get you in a decent PvE guild perhaps.

Haquor

By 'massive' do you mean about 10k dps of you have 2x dd? Cause thats basically what it works out to be to do hardmode Valkyn Skoria. Not a huge ask imho

DRXHarbinger

Haquor wrote: »

By 'massive' do you mean about 10k dps of you have 2x dd? Cause thats basically what it works out to be to do hardmode Valkyn Skoria. Not a huge ask imho

Skoria takes a bit more than 10k dps. 10k things on that final platform will start getting really hairy.

Shunravi

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

Haquor wrote: »

By 'massive' do you mean about 10k dps of you have 2x dd? Cause thats basically what it works out to be to do hardmode Valkyn Skoria. Not a huge ask imho

Skoria takes a bit more than 10k dps. 10k things on that final platform will start getting really hairy.

hairy but doable.... besides, getting on the rocks for a final bit of burn isnt to hard

Bigevilpeter

Oh come on guys 12k??? I been in parties way more than that and since the bosses didnt get burned fast enough things got really out of hand.

Don't know where you got the 12k number, but i'm sure its a lot more than that, if i spam my shards I can do 14k.

Yeah i have a PvE guild but they are not always available and so I need to search in general.

I'm in PC EU btw

lolo_01b16_ESO

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

They don't just require you to know the tactics, but also require massive dps.

No they don't. If you think you need massive dps to complete a dungeon, then you most likely don't know how the fight works. Every single vet dungeon is doable with both dps pulling 10k if you know all mechanics. And 10k dps is something that you should be allowed to expect from people who want to do the hardest dungeons in the game.

nordsavage

If you cannot break 15k dps you need to rethink things.

dimensional

nordsavage wrote: »

If you cannot break 15k dps you need to rethink things.

Or maybe you just don't have the gear, or are on the lower end of the veteran spectrum? Remember, these vet dungeons are supposed to be meant for all veteran rank characters, but the gulf of power between a VR1 and a VR 16 is still huge, even with the scaling. Gear is a huge factor. I'd like to be able to some more of the vet dungeons on my lower level vet characters but the numbers difference is huge.

MaxwellC

@Bigevilpeter
Maybe this will help but... Having high weapon damage doesn't = high DPS. Damage per second is best done with DoTs, especially AoE DoTs like caltrops,Eruption,templar solar prision/morphs,etc. If you're a magicka build you can go for high single target DPS which is good for bosses but the amount you can cast and or sustain the cost is what determines the out-come; now don't get me wrong having good spell damage/weapon damage (IMO 2.5+ spell un buffed/3k weapon un buffed is good).

Destruent

dimensional wrote: »

nordsavage wrote: »

If you cannot break 15k dps you need to rethink things.

Or maybe you just don't have the gear, or are on the lower end of the veteran spectrum? Remember, these vet dungeons are supposed to be meant for all veteran rank characters, but the gulf of power between a VR1 and a VR 16 is still huge, even with the scaling. Gear is a huge factor. I'd like to be able to some more of the vet dungeons on my lower level vet characters but the numbers difference is huge.

You can do ~15...20k DPS on a scaled V1 character. Gear is easy to get on that level (purple is enough, jewelry doesn't matter). The scaling is good enough to finish those dungeons.

Btw. the difference between V1 and V16 may be huge, but the difference between a good and a bad player is even bigger...V-level doesn't matter that much, like basic understanding of the game and its mechanics.

Biggest problem with vICP/vWGT is: they are daily-dungeon sometimes and can be the random dungeon from the lfg-tool so people expect to beat them like they do in wayrest sewers. But they are actually harder and you have to be able to play your class/role...If they just exclude those dungeons from the daily/random-dungeon list it would make things a bit better i think.

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

Oh come on guys 12k??? I been in parties way more than that and since the bosses didnt get burned fast enough things got really out of hand.

Don't know where you got the 12k number, but i'm sure its a lot more than that, if i spam my shards I can do 14k.

Yeah i have a PvE guild but they are not always available and so I need to search in general.

I'm in PC EU btw

When we first cleared both dungeons our DDs usually had around 15k...20k DPS (still purple v14-gear and so on) and it wasn't that hard as soon as we understood the mechanics. Maybe you should time ultimates a bit better, use warhorns, support (combat prayer, ele-drain and so on). Usually the problem isn't DPS, but missing groupplay.

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

Haquor wrote: »

By 'massive' do you mean about 10k dps of you have 2x dd? Cause thats basically what it works out to be to do hardmode Valkyn Skoria. Not a huge ask imho

Skoria takes a bit more than 10k dps. 10k things on that final platform will start getting really hairy.

When CP were introduced we usually did around 10k DPS and guess what? We actually could kill Skoria. Just make sure noone dies.

dimensional

Maybe not the DPS but as a tank it sure doesn't seem like the scaling works that great.

Destruent

dimensional wrote: »

Maybe not the DPS but as a tank it sure doesn't seem like the scaling works that great.

Lol, you don't need to scale anything if you want to tank. I tanked vCoA no-deathrun with my V2-vamp-NB before IC-DLC. So there was no scaling at all. I don't know exactly about the 2 new dungeons, but you get a lot of stats when you are scaled up, so i don't see a problem.
belive me...biggest problem is a lack of group play or just bad gameplay in general.

lolo_01b16_ESO

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

Oh come on guys 12k??? I been in parties way more than that and since the bosses didnt get burned fast enough things got really out of hand.

Don't know where you got the 12k number, but i'm sure its a lot more than that, if i spam my shards I can do 14k.

Yeah i have a PvE guild but they are not always available and so I need to search in general.

I'm in PC EU btw

Which fight do you think requires more than 12k?

dimensional

How much HP is enough for you to tank? (not magicka with shield stacking tanking) Do you use heavy armor?

Destruent

dimensional wrote: »

How much HP is enough for you to tank? (not magicka with shield stacking tanking) Do you use heavy armor?

5 pc heavy, 1 medium 1 light for undaunted passive, 25k...26k HP. This is enough for all dungeons. resistances are at 25k...30k, depends on the equip i'm using. i usually have some different setups in my bag
i just basically taunt boss/big adds, keep buffs up and spam funnel health/impale for some DPS, ressources and offheal.

lolo_01b16_ESO

dimensional wrote: »

How much HP is enough for you to tank? (not magicka with shield stacking tanking) Do you use heavy armor?

You can tank with 21k hp in medium armour, but I'd recommend ~25k in heavy to allow you to do some mistakes, especially if you are not familiar with your group or the bossfight.

mistermutiny89

10k dps?? Seesh! Your spammable should at least crit for 10k, your medium weave 3-4K, your dots (there should be a minimum of two) should tick for 3-4 k each and then your dawn breaker should hit for 27,28k with 11k dots.

That's a minimum of 25k per sec without war horn. I'm not sure how dps are running lower than that unless they are wrecking blow spamming. Or light attack spamming with heavy armour on. Or the good old lightning staff heavy attack spammers.

dimensional

Cool, thanks for the info.

MikeB

The problem is people jumping into Vet queues as soon as they hit V16, or even before, when they can't do public dungeons solo. Last I attempted a Vet dungeon using the group finder, instead of my guild, was a Vet Spindleclutch where it was obvious the other 3 people had never done the dungeon before. One of the dps died almost every trash pull. I made it to the 2nd boss, which took 15 minutes, and just quit. No one was on VChat to talk out the issues. The whole dungeon shouldn't take 15 minutes.

Totalitarian

IMO the problem with these dungeons are the mechanics

vCOA
First Boss: the boss is actually easy. There are two ways to do it. 1: DPS the boss down before all the adds spawn. or 2: the hard one: take the boss slowly and kill the adds as they spawn. What makes this boss 'difficult' is that if you don't have the dps to instagib him in 1 minute, you have to take him slowly, which is basically the opposite of how bosses are.
Ash Titan: Honestly only difficult for the tank when the Atronachs spawn. The only mechanic to this boss for dps and healers is to stay out of the flames. It isn't hard to do, but the flames do hurt a ton, so there is little room for error.
Valkyn Skoria: If your dps isn't good enough, you're going to lose. This is probably most taxing on the healer. Simply because Skoria lifts up his sword, and says something completely awesome, and rains fire on you. Solution: Healing Springs. Of course, he usually does too much damage if you're stamina. But if you're a Templar healer, then you Purify-Healing Springs-Nova and Breathe Life as needed
This dungeon does heavily favor magicka builds, because Light Armor has Annulment.

vWGT
The Adjucator: Somewhat similar to the Ash Titan. Just completely destroy her quickly.
Planar Inhibitor: Okay, this is the hard one. A few mechanics. Take out portals and activate the pinion. Easier said than done. But not an impossible boss.
Molag Kena: Only two mechanics: avoid the lighting that revolves around. And second, correctly aggro the Storm Atronachs when they spawn. Again, completely doable. She's considered easier to beat than the Planar Inhibitor.
This dungeon does heavily favor magicka builds because of the prevalence of magic damage.

vICP
Flesh Scupltor: Honestly, after you do this a few times, it is rather easy. Throw the bombs onto the zombies.
I haven't beaten the Flesh Abomination or Lord Warden Dusk yet, but they're still wholly doable.


These dungeons require some practice and knowledge of the mechanics. Thankfully, there are YouTubers who have made videos explaining the mechanics. That and most of the playerbase are more than nice enough to explain the mechanics. And, of course, practice makes perfect.

Once you learn the mechanics, you're able to take these dungeons easily.

SublimeSparo

Totalitarian wrote: »

Molag Kena: Only two mechanics: avoid the lighting that revolves around. And second, correctly aggro the Storm Atronachs when they spawn. Again, completely doable. She's considered easier to beat than the Planar Inhibitor.
This dungeon does heavily favor magicka builds because of the prevalence of magic damage.

vICP
Flesh Scupltor: Honestly, after you do this a few times, it is rather easy. Throw the bombs onto the zombies.
I haven't beaten the Flesh Abomination or Lord Warden Dusk yet, but they're still wholly doable.

Just curious, beaten vwgt many times but never knew you could aggro the storm atro's at kena... how do you do it?

For the Flesh abomination we found a fairly good strat-
Tank taunts the abomination, whilst the two dps from opposite sides of the room simultaneously hit a hoarver each to split them up.
Tank takes abomination to corner of the room, (we use back right)
Dps mops up hoarvers, then focus boss. Keeping eye out gor more hoarvers and nuking them down when they spawn.
Block the red circle that follows you under your feet to avoid the cc.
Don't cross the donut thing that spawns around 1 player and focus the zombies with aoes.
When the abomination ignores taunt and heads to centre of the room, tank stays still, everyone else splits up and run to sides of the room.

Rinse and repeat

Zerok

I developed a profound dislike for vWGT and vICP because they are very unforgiving. If one person in your team makes a small mistake, all the group will die.

I consider myself a casual player. I like a challenge, but these dungeons are just too much for my playstyle. When they are the gold pledge, I (usually) skip them.

I made an exception today because some guildmates requested my help for vWGT. We made it to the final boss, and then we spent 30-45 minutes trying to finish it.

After 10+ wipes, the best we could do is to get her to 18%. In the end, I lost 2 hours for nothing (it was not even fun).

I'm not doing this again (at least before they nerf it). I have other things to do.

If these dungeons are intended for the hardcore players, I think they should at least make another gold pledge for the casual players.

Shunravi

Zerok wrote: »

I developed a profound dislike for vWGT and vICP because they are very unforgiving. If one person in your team makes a small mistake, all the group will die.

I consider myself a casual player. I like a challenge, but these dungeons are just too much for my playstyle. When they are the gold pledge, I (usually) skip them.

I made an exception today because some guildmates requested my help for vWGT. We made it to the final boss, and then we spent 30-45 minutes trying to finish it.

After 10+ wipes, the best we could do is to get her to 18%. In the end, I lost 2 hours for nothing (it was not even fun).

I'm not doing this again (at least before they nerf it). I have other things to do.

If these dungeons are intended for the hardcore players, I think they should at least make another gold pledge for the casual players.

they should take them off the gold pledge track

Totalitarian

Zerok wrote: »

I developed a profound dislike for vWGT and vICP because they are very unforgiving. If one person in your team makes a small mistake, all the group will die.

I consider myself a casual player. I like a challenge, but these dungeons are just too much for my playstyle. When they are the gold pledge, I (usually) skip them.

A really good way to get the pledges still done on veteran mode is to get the pledge scaled to v1. That way, they're not horribly hard, and while you won't get the loot you want, you'll still get the 2 gold keys.

I also am too casual to learn vWGT and vICP well enough to just be able to go and clear them like nothing.

Totalitarian

SublimeSparo wrote: »

Just curious, beaten vwgt many times but never knew you could aggro the storm atro's at kena... how do you do it?

I could have sworn that you could aggro them. But if you can't, then you just have to be able to lead them around (which I'm sure you know). Of course, it's impossible to do when you get stunned by Kena and then Stormy the Atronach wrecks you when he spawns on top of you.

Samphaa

Zerok wrote: »

I developed a profound dislike for vWGT and vICP because they are very unforgiving. If one person in your team makes a small mistake, all the group will die.

I consider myself a casual player. I like a challenge, but these dungeons are just too much for my playstyle. When they are the gold pledge, I (usually) skip them.

I made an exception today because some guildmates requested my help for vWGT. We made it to the final boss, and then we spent 30-45 minutes trying to finish it.

After 10+ wipes, the best we could do is to get her to 18%. In the end, I lost 2 hours for nothing (it was not even fun).

I'm not doing this again (at least before they nerf it). I have other things to do.

If these dungeons are intended for the hardcore players, I think they should at least make another gold pledge for the casual players.

The first time I did tower it took us 5 1/2 hours, we got stuck on kena for half of that time. Now we clear tower in under 30 mins and I've 3 manned it on hard mode. It's just practise and group synergy, nothing special.

Find a team and stick with them, learn each others strength, don't go in there with a random group everytime, fail and then complain it's too hard, because it's not, it just requires a small amount of coordination.

And you already have 8 other pledges for casual players...

Stillian

Why would you nerf dungeons that are already can be completed without healer? or can be completed as party of two? Because ZOS supports playstyle when players dont even play the game. They just want to log in and run through everything pressing one button, without making any effort to actually PLAY. They cannot use even 1\10 of character possibilities, cannot learn at least basic mechanics. For some reason in this community this playstyle micalled as "casual".

We've taken so many new players through WGT and ICP, and all is needed is to have somewhat adequate build (not magicka archer, or stamina mage) and perform 2 dots + spammable rotation. When real casual player (the one that spends maybe one or two evenings in game, and dont have interest in completing everything, conquering leaderbords etc) meets the dificulty of dungeon - he is stuck and cant complete - he either uses his brains and slightly improves his build\rotation OR he can always ask advice of experienced players, or read one of hunderds guides on the net. After doing minor adjustments to character, he is happy to complete the content - and he is satisfied that he can complete a thing, that seemd challenging to him from first look, he is happy to play the game - use its possibilites, improve charachter and play actual mechanichs. But no, in this game, so-called "casual" goes to QQ on forum. Then content that ALREADY been nerfed three times, and doesnt require any good skill or well equipped character to complete gets nerfed even more, and becomes same faceroll as wayrest sewers.

Remember first adventure location - craglorn. WIth wounderful dungeons, some new mechanichs, not hard at all - but at same time not faceroll. Look what we have now - orsinium and hew's bane where mobs cant kill naked character. and "world bosses" are soloable. Where is the GAMEPLAY? why it becomes similar to some happy facebook farm when you log in and click "gather stuff" and game literally ends there?

failkiwib16_ESO

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

Oh come on guys 12k??? I been in parties way more than that and since the bosses didnt get burned fast enough things got really out of hand.

Don't know where you got the 12k number, but i'm sure its a lot more than that, if i spam my shards I can do 14k.

Yeah i have a PvE guild but they are not always available and so I need to search in general.

I'm in PC EU btw

@Bigevilpeter I was v16 and I did those dungeons with some returning guildmembers who had held a break from the game for a while, due to lack of content. They were wearing outdated gear and were v14 and v15 in a v16 scaled dungeon. We always post our dps in groups, to be able to measure ourselves and they consistently posted 12k at bossfights.

They were also good players, and were good at staying out of stupid, knowing what to prioritize in a fight, and quickly recover from mistakes. I have done vWGT with decent 15k-23k dps players and struggled more.

Magdalina

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

Oh come on guys 12k??? I been in parties way more than that and since the bosses didnt get burned fast enough things got really out of hand.

Don't know where you got the 12k number, but i'm sure its a lot more than that, if i spam my shards I can do 14k.

Yeah i have a PvE guild but they are not always available and so I need to search in general.

I'm in PC EU btw

I'm sorry if this sounds rude but then your teams is not following the mechanics all the way. If you can push 20-30k dps(or more) these dungeons of course become much easier because it lets you bypass the mechanics.

I pugged ICP a couple of days ago; we didn't end up completing it because it took too long but we didn't have a dps issue. We had 2 people for whom it was their first time in the place and third one who barely remembered it. I was the only v16. One of the dps was v3(scaled but still). I think both dps were stamina(which makes it that much more challenging). Their dps was very mediocre - no numbers posted but I'm willing to bet it definitely didn't exceed 12k. Actually now that I think of it I think one guy did specifically mention 12k figure and apologize for his "low" dps. I told him it's just fine.

The biggest "dps race" of that place is Ibomez. First time we tried him we got rekt by like 6 atros, then I assigned people to each zombie wave and in a couple more tries we got it without any issues. I was actually surprised by how well that fight went with "low" dps if people just listen, do their job and bother interrupting, blocking and other good stuff. I must say it was first time in a long while I've actually had to follow mechanics properly but it was definitely doable.

Name me a fight that you find to be impossible without very high dps? I'm just curious what makes you feel that way and perhaps could give you some tips or something

Shame you're on EU:/

EDIT: on the side note, I am aware that pugging those dungeons can frequently result into failure and I think if you're not prepared for that you simply shouldn't pug. I don't think it means the content needs further nerfed so that every pug can complete it, because else what is there to learn and strive for for that pug?