After playing without champion system for just a little while...

FriedEggSandwich · April 2016

CP campaigns should co-exist with non-cp campaigns, there should be no removal of either. They are very different experiences. I personally prefer to play on the CP campaign just because it's more of a challenge. Playing in azura is a faceroll 90% of the time and I felt bad.

QuebraRegra · April 2016

Bossdonut wrote: »

I've said this already.

ALL campaigns should be 0 cp.

I'm a long time denouncer of CPs, particularly in campaigns, but even I can not agree with this. As much as I disagree with the CP implementation, ZOS created it, players invested in it, and they have a right to use what exists.

My historical record shows that I called for no CPs in the non-vet campaigns from the very beginning. Let ZOS offer both CP and non-CP campaigns, and let the player decide.

http://i.imgur.com/f4jLSi1.jpg

Shadesofkin · April 2016

bowmanz607 wrote: »

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Shadesofkin wrote: »

I've got 10k gold on PC NA that says post Veteran Ranks the power creep will be lessened.

perhaps, but what is the point of having the champ system if everytime people start earning more and more cp you have to nerf damage or healing or shields etc? that just gives the illusion of progression. IC comes to mind here.That just shows the inherent flaws in the system.

Dont get me wrong I thnk the concept is great, but limiting the stars to like 5% or providing some soft caps or something will go a long way to make the system better. imo, it shouldnt be scrapped but reworking the numbers would be nice.

I can't say I agree, but I think that a balance of numbers is needed, more on gear than on CP. Giving me 300 spell damage on my VR16 gear combined with my VR16 power level, then give me Champion passives and boom...there's the issue as far as I'm concerned.

With 16 power levels gone from the system I think we'll see the creep reasonably lesson, those passives will have to do more with less and that will adjust how everything feels.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm an optimist and I think that's what's going to happen.

Steel_Brightblade · April 2016

I play on azuras, only in small guild groups, 6 or 7 at most and haven't re geared to do it, last time I was there 4 of us held off 10 ebon heart guys for over an hour. Was good fun, the thing I noticed most was no more instant deaths from sneak attacks, you actually have to fight and manage resources to go the distance.

Just a shame for us there aren't more there so these kinds of fights don't occur more often. Love the smaller scale stuff.

dodgehopper_ESO · April 2016

Gidorick wrote: »

I've been advocating a change in the CP concept for a while now. I had this idea of an active passive bar where you can choose a small number of CPs to be active in any consolation at any given point.

Not only would this make the way you build your character important, it would allow for players that have multiple builds to where you change your CP load out depending on what role you're going to fulfill.

Original link: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/219662/cp-active-passive-bar-cp-burn-concept/p1
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Gidorick wrote: »

One of the concerns with the Champion System is the eventual homogenization of players. As players apply more points, their skill-sets will begin to converge toward an eventual identical conclusion. Every player who reaches the 3600 CP cap will have the exact same CP benefits. This is a concern because it de-diversifies builds.

Active Passive Astrolabe
Along with whatever champion system cap and catch-up mechanic ZOS devises, I think it would be a good idea to have an Active Passive bar added to the Champion System with a total of nine slots.

This way, each constellation could be taken advantage of and no matter the veteran rank, diverse builds will remain possible. This would also help with the Champion System power creep concerns.

This bar would have one slot per Constellation in the Champion System.

Activating the star would be as simple as dragging and dropping the star into the astrolabe slot when viewing each constellation.

Only the CP skills that are slotted in the Astrolabe actively impacts player performance.

CP Burn Mechanic:
Another part of this concept is the consumption of CPs through use. When a star is placed in a slot it has the possibility of burning away. When a player enters combat their slotted stars burn. After a set number of time burning, the CPs within the stars are consumed. This would only happen while the player is in combat so players wouldn't consume their stars while crafting or gathering materials, or RPing. This would prevent players from feeling that need to always be on the grind.

The time left for each CP within a star could be tracked with a burn bar that is displayed in the above concept image. It's important to note that loosing CPs should NEVER make players loose access to stars they have already unlocked.

These two concepts will turn the champion system into a perpetual earning concept and prevent it from being a mechanic that has an end with the need for further maintenance. Players will be encouraged to try different stars and those who only use one set of stars will need to continually earn CPs to keep their stars fully charged.

So, what do you think? Beneficial? Unneeded? Another idea?

Oh, and if this sounds familiar, it's because this concept is highly influenced by an idea by @Rune_relic which can be found HERE.

Some thought one Active Passive slot per constellation was too few.... so I also suggested:
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Gidorick wrote: »

I certainly wouldn't be opposed to differing slot effectiveness @BuggeX. Nor would I be opposed to multiple slots. A total of 9 100% effective slots and 18 50% slots would be excellent.

It's the concept of limiting the effective stars that I'm advocating... not necessarily the exact number. I do think, however, that a 3 or 5 slot bar would be too few. At minimum, I think we would need one for each constellation.

I really like the idea of consuming CPs. I have another concept where you would concentrate prayers to the Gods with CPs.

Also like the idea of CP being used as a sort of currency. They could do something in game that helps players get those rare drops. Perhaps there could even be a way to convert Champion Points to Crowns. With the Champion Point catch up mechanic making CPs is pretty easy, I think a one-to-one conversion rate would be pretty good. Want to buy the new DLC with champion points? That'll be 3000 CP please.

I like the necessity to choose, but I don't like the idea of burning CP. I agree with what someone else said earlier that the removal of diminishing returns is the biggest bane to game balance. I'm a big fan of the idea of having to select a passive bar though, forcing players to choose builds for a given scenario, at least when it comes to CP. Even so, I think if they just implemented proper diminishing returns it would be easier for the devs to get a handle on balance.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · April 2016

bowmanz607 wrote: »

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kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Im having more fun in pvp because:
Theres little to no lagg compared to other camps

Resources matter

Your build matters much more and how well you play it

With champion system pvp is too forgiving if you dont play well

Im having more fun in pve because:
Its much more challenging, quite simple

Should ZOS remove the current implementation of the champion system and insert something else?

Im fairly convinced the answer is YES.

•Little lag cause no one is there.
•Resources matter now if you don't play a min max race with 10-12% more resources and recovery.
•Builds matter now run a super burst build with 2 Kena and burn your pools and have your damage buffs on cool down you die 100% of the time if the rolled or shielded your damage.
•Forgiving when everyone buffs damage by 20% cause anymore and to return is too small everyone has 60 points (17.5) resistance to magic and stamina.

I don't care if you find it harder to nerf yourself, I did not spend two years on this game to see no progress. I hit max level long ago their must be progress.

-azuras has a good pop on the weekend
-sorry, but resources do not matter. When i run my magblade i do it with a bosmer. I have zero issues with resources b/c of champ tree. Resource management is a joke with cp.
-its not that builds dont matter now, its that builds are much more significant with no cp. You actually have weaknesses. You want resources, than you lose damage. You want damage, than you lose resources. You want mitigation well you will either lose resources or damage or both if you go full mitigation. even a kena proc is not bad with cp. no one is running around with it up 100% of the time. also, can you name a build today outside of kena proc that has issues with sustain?
-it is extremely forgiving b/c of the issues with resource managment (or lack there of i suppose) and reducing break free and dodgeroll etc. it is extremely forgiving these days.

ofcourse it is nice to have progression, but progression that gives everyone easy mode is just crazy. Went back to non-vet yesterday for first time since they removed cp and the figts required so much more strategy, timing, manuvering, and managment. it was great.

There is a reason this game is not considered to have competitive pvp. Everyone is on easy mode and two players who know what they ar doing will be in a never ending fight b/c of cp. heck, just dueled someone this weekend and after 13min of fighting we walked away. Where is the fun in that?

imo, progress can come in the form of getting more skillful at the game. there does not need to be a system in place just so yo can point to something and say "see i progressed and am better." Just getting better at the game is progress. This is what I miss about 1.5

All Mage's have high recovery my MageBlade like all my guys in Argonian rarely drops below 20%. Resource management is more of a Stamina market where defending yourself comes with heavy penalties increased cost and loss on recovery.

You're missing the point on damage everyone I know only puts 60 points to magic and stamina resistance, and anything over 75 points (20% in most trees) The diminishing returns is just to punishing you get a bigger benefit elsewhere. So you do 20% more damage but they take 17.5% less? That's 2.5% more damage after you hit the numbers so not a notable buff.

I have long no win fights on the CP campaign Trueflame, Aruza's Star when I'm waiting in the Q for Trueflame and Non Vet. All my not on my DPS or Healer but on my Heavy armor guys. My new non vets and my vets in heavy 1v1 don't die can't kill but wouldn't go down.

I don't find long 1v1 fights to be boring at all knowing that my build can hold it's own without potions or outside heals is the best I always win in the end cause i'm built by last without potions so when the other guy runs out I win.

Again to resource management doing half the damage and heals with the base cost of powers being increased its just much of the same yes recovery is higher and cost is lower but you're doing half the damage so it evens out to where we were last year. Only difference is only of the two favorited classes is now Nightblades and not Dragon Knights and now you can go beyond the nerf after like 360CP.

So you can add 25% to your recovery but you have to heal and atrack. You can't have progression without things getting easier play non cp and don't use your points if you don't mind being in the same place you were a year and a half ago just with new armor then have at it but the rest of us like seeing our time turned into something.

itscompton · April 2016

Lysette wrote: »

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DRXHarbinger wrote: »

What cp needs is a line to boost execution damage. Would make templar ganking much more fun. Toppling charge (when it works) vampires bane and then beeeeam gone.

that sounds like even more power creep to me - what the game needs is not more damage, but less.

This exactly, Magica Templar and Magica DK are actually optimal as far as how much damage they can put out in PVP. If someone with one of these classes ganks you and you don't get a chance to fight back it's because they used an ultimate to take you out, not because they stunned you and spammed a standard attack two or three times. If they could bring other classes in line with this damage output it would eliminate the current meta of getting stunned and killed before you can break out and all the two button to win players would actually have to develop skill and reflexes to get kills.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · April 2016

bowmanz607 wrote: »

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kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Steel_Brightblade wrote: »

Strange, so many agree that champion points are a bad thing and yet, on xbox one at least, the no cp azuras star campaign is empty.

Same for PC NA

keep in mind that many players dont want to spend money to regear for no cp. many builds rely on cp, so players dont either (1) want to take the time to do it (2) dont have the money to do it or both.

You can great sets for PvP Mail and Chest plus crafted sets are still popular. I know the cost to make it all gold would turn most people off but it would only take a good two weeks to do.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · April 2016

Build matter they matter more with the CP system a 25% booth to damage means nothing if you have low damage. 25% better recovery when you have sh*t recovery is pointless.

Suru · April 2016

Lysette wrote: »

I am just curious if the no-CP campaigns make hybrid builds more viable as well?- Any experience with that?

nope, damage is relatively low here, you would be useless as a hybrid build in AZ.

Strider_Roshin · April 2016

Honestly I think they should remove the current cap, only have the catch up system be in place up to the 501 mark, then flat line the experience gain. Also they should make hard-cap 999. If we allow people to acquire too many CPs then everyone's build will be the same. Limiting it at 999 will create powerful variations. If everyone had 3600 the game would just be boring.

TequilaFire · April 2016

All of you that like the no CP campaign fine, play there but stop suggesting nerfs to CP passives etc. for those that don't.
I admit I like playing my baby Templar in Blackwater, but then again I always enjoyed the non vet campaign even when there were CP in it.

I will say I think it was a mistake to allow proxy det at at lower alliance skill levels in Blackwater, it was better before that.

NewBlacksmurf · April 2016

olsborg wrote: »

Im having more fun in pvp because:
Theres little to no lagg compared to other camps

Resources matter

Your build matters much more and how well you play it

With champion system pvp is too forgiving if you dont play well

Im having more fun in pve because:
Its much more challenging, quite simple

Should ZOS remove the current implementation of the champion system and insert something else?

Im fairly convinced the answer is YES.

I agree with the first part but i disagree with the last.

ZOS shouldn't remove the champion system BUT it should be used differently in how its laid out now once VR is removed.
My signature elaborates on this.

olsborg · April 2016

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

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olsborg wrote: »

Im having more fun in pvp because:
Theres little to no lagg compared to other camps

Resources matter

Your build matters much more and how well you play it

With champion system pvp is too forgiving if you dont play well

Im having more fun in pve because:
Its much more challenging, quite simple

Should ZOS remove the current implementation of the champion system and insert something else?

Im fairly convinced the answer is YES.

•Little lag cause no one is there.
•Resources matter now if you don't play a min max race with 10-12% more resources and recovery.
•Builds matter now run a super burst build with 2 Kena and burn your pools and have your damage buffs on cool down you die 100% of the time if the rolled or shielded your damage.
•Forgiving when everyone buffs damage by 20% cause anymore and to return is too small everyone has 60 points (17.5) resistance to magic and stamina.

I don't care if you find it harder to nerf yourself, I did not spend two years on this game to see no progress. I hit max level long ago their must be progress.

Not saying there shouldnt be progress, just that the cp system is the wrong one in my opinion, and I can back that up with having tried with and without it.

jzholloway · April 2016

I don't have a dog in the CP discussion.. but what the hell is up with everyone today talking about Hybrid builds?

itscompton · April 2016

ArchMikem wrote: »

After many months of hard contemplation and flabbergastion, it is obvious that I have no idea how Champion Points make the game too easy for the lot of you. I've come to accept that I'm just not getting the way you guys build your characters cause even with 260 points my gameplay is still difficult and PvP is something I avoid entirely.

But here's a thought. If you want the game to be just a little harder for people like you, it'd be making it extremely more difficult for the likes of me.

The reason you can't figure out how CP's are making the game that much easier for others is that most of those that brag/complain about that issue have 2X as many CP's as you do. 250-275 was where I started to notice a bit of difference and now at 400+ it's very obvious.

Zanen · April 2016

I was one of the few way back when who argued for diminishing returns, genuine softcaps, when everyone seemed to be screaming for their removal.

At this point it's probably too much to hope for that they revert to softcaps, but I think a better solution is decoupling resources from ability scaling entirely. Damage should scale with power, and there should be meaningful, difficult balancing choices between damage, mitigation, utility, and sustain every player has to make, rather than get everything from one stat as most strong builds do now.

I have no idea what they were thinking with the CP system. Makes difficulty scaling and balance a nightmare, inherently, and introduces another grind to an already grindy game.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · April 2016

Zanen wrote: »

I was one of the few way back when who argued for diminishing returns, genuine softcaps, when everyone seemed to be screaming for their removal.

At this point it's probably too much to hope for that they revert to softcaps, but I think a better solution is decoupling resources from ability scaling entirely. Damage should scale with power, and there should be meaningful, difficult balancing choices between damage, mitigation, utility, and sustain every player has to make, rather than get everything from one stat as most strong builds do now.

I have no idea what they were thinking with the CP system. Makes difficulty scaling and balance a nightmare, inherently, and introduces another grind to an already grindy game.

Soft cap were a bad idea if I put 100 points in something I want to get 100 points added. We have to remember the state the game was in all the builds had the same stats magic and stamina.

Get to the cap on recovery on max resources/power/recovery/resistance everyone running the same build that's not wasting stats we don't need that

JadeNaria · April 2016

I believe a group if ppl should not feel entitled to discuss what should be done with what was earned by others that worked hard for it.

Its like trying to control the economy to keep everyone on the same financial level. If I work harder, get an education and focus on success then I should be able to represent that outcome regardless of those around me and their current status.

That is what CPs do, my hard work towards them and the benefit or edge I get out of them is deserving.

If everyone had the same amount of CP then these threads would be non existent since everyone we could be on the same playing field per se'.

Since that is not the case, these threads do exist and what they imply is bring others down to the level they are currently at because the edge others have from hard work is not convenient.

What you and I earn is what we are entitled to and no one has a say in that.

bowmanz607 · April 2016

JadeNaria wrote: »

I believe a group if ppl should not feel entitled to discuss what should be done with what was earned by others that worked hard for it.

Its like trying to control the economy to keep everyone on the same financial level. If I work harder, get an education and focus on success then I should be able to represent that outcome regardless of those around me and their current status.

That is what CPs do, my hard work towards them and the benefit or edge I get out of them is deserving.

If everyone had the same amount of CP then these threads would be non existent since everyone we could be on the same playing field per se'.

Since that is not the case, these threads do exist and what they imply is bring others down to the level they are currently at because the edge others have from hard work is not convenient.

What you and I earn is what we are entitled to and no one has a say in that.

I am at cap and would still like to see something happen. Other I know also above cap feel the same way. Sypher also doesn't like what the cp system did. Don't assume that because we don't like something we didn't earn it.

JadeNaria · April 2016

bowmanz607 wrote: »

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JadeNaria wrote: »

I believe a group if ppl should not feel entitled to discuss what should be done with what was earned by others that worked hard for it.

Its like trying to control the economy to keep everyone on the same financial level. If I work harder, get an education and focus on success then I should be able to represent that outcome regardless of those around me and their current status.

That is what CPs do, my hard work towards them and the benefit or edge I get out of them is deserving.

If everyone had the same amount of CP then these threads would be non existent since everyone we could be on the same playing field per se'.

Since that is not the case, these threads do exist and what they imply is bring others down to the level they are currently at because the edge others have from hard work is not convenient.

What you and I earn is what we are entitled to and no one has a say in that.

I am at cap and would still like to see something happen. Other I know also above cap feel the same way. Sypher also doesn't like what the cp system did. Don't assume that because we don't like something we didn't earn it.

Don't assume I am assuming.

Vangy · April 2016

I dont see the big deal about this.

For PvP:
Everyone who enjoys no CP --> go to azura's
Everyone who enjoys CP--> go to had/TF

For PVE:
Does it really matter? Content should be balanced around close to the current CP cap. For example, I presume maw would be balanced to someone with around 250-350 CP since cap is 501. When cap becomes 800, content would be balanced to someone with around 500 CP is my guess. This would make it harder for new players to acquire leaderboard positons but CP dosent stop you from clearing a trial though. It gives everyone something to work towards. AKA, CP dosent matter in PvE.

So its a win-win for all no? Everyone can play the way they want and isnt that what ESO is all about? All that needs to happen is decoupling of offensive stats from defensive stats. ie: More stam/mag should not give you bigger heals/sheilds. Defensive skills such as vigor/ward etc should scale based off health while offensive skills should scale off stam/mag.

RedFireDisco · April 2016

Lysette wrote: »

I am just curious if the no-CP campaigns make hybrid builds more viable as well?- Any experience with that?

I think champion point help hybrids. It gives them necessary buffs. Without them, I think they can't compete.

Magdalina · April 2016

itscompton wrote: »

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Lysette wrote: »

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

What cp needs is a line to boost execution damage. Would make templar ganking much more fun. Toppling charge (when it works) vampires bane and then beeeeam gone.

that sounds like even more power creep to me - what the game needs is not more damage, but less.

This exactly, Magica Templar and Magica DK are actually optimal as far as how much damage they can put out in PVP. If someone with one of these classes ganks you and you don't get a chance to fight back it's because they used an ultimate to take you out, not because they stunned you and spammed a standard attack two or three times. If they could bring other classes in line with this damage output it would eliminate the current meta of getting stunned and killed before you can break out and all the two button to win players would actually have to develop skill and reflexes to get kills.

Pretty sure a well aimed Dark Flare followed by Jesus Beam is already more than capable of oneshotting people x_x

Digiman · April 2016

The problem with this is that the game would then revolve around a boring gear grind and boring for PvE without feeling any stronger.

Remember they did this with VR with it not giving skill points and people complained they weren't feeling like they weren't improving.

I love champion points, they make my character feel unique and allows me to compliment my playstyle. If they did want to disable it then make it an option.

Wollust · April 2016

JadeNaria wrote: »

I believe a group if ppl should not feel entitled to discuss what should be done with what was earned by others that worked hard for it.

Its like trying to control the economy to keep everyone on the same financial level. If I work harder, get an education and focus on success then I should be able to represent that outcome regardless of those around me and their current status.

That is what CPs do, my hard work towards them and the benefit or edge I get out of them is deserving.

If everyone had the same amount of CP then these threads would be non existent since everyone we could be on the same playing field per se'.

Since that is not the case, these threads do exist and what they imply is bring others down to the level they are currently at because the edge others have from hard work is not convenient.

What you and I earn is what we are entitled to and no one has a say in that.

Your argument doesn't make sense. It would mean we're not allowed to discuss the CP system at all and therefore no changes could be made to it - positive or negative.
I have more CPs than probably 99.9% of the ESO playerbase, and I am all in favor of nerfing it. Why? Because it is simply too strong. 25% more damage, more resource regen and more defense to max? That's just ridiculous and one of the reasons we've had stupid bandaid fixes since 1.7.

The Uninvited · April 2016

bowmanz607 wrote: »

I think just reintroduce caps.

This. Just bring back soft caps.

TheShadowScout · April 2016

I like CP, for the feeling that I actually do get something for the time I play ESO - that occasional "ding - you got better" feeling... or at least "Ding, you got something, even if you cannot use it quite yet due to cap" like it is since my first TG playthrough...

I like it way better then other games, where every time they up the level cap I wince at the thought of just how much XPs I did not earn from all the things I played through while at the old cap... I won't ever have that problem in ESO, yay!

I also would be severely vexed by any CP nerf or such. it would feel like... they stealing something from me, denying me the things I earned. Taking earned power away from people is NOT the right way to go about this... vexing your players is not a way to sustain a loyal playerbase for your game...

Same with all those "only limited number of stars active" ideas - I like having the options of spreading my boni-granting CPs all over the place, instead of picking a few "best" ones and putting all into them. And I like to use the boni I select on my constellation screen, all of them...

And any "burn CP" mechanic is something even worse in my eyes... experience should never ever be "used up" - you don't loose your skill at swinging a sword by swinging it harder, you would be way more likely to gain more experience in swordhandling through usning your attained skills!
Consumable resources are stuff like money and so on. NOT experience. And CP are experience.

Now... all that being said...

There should be more Options for people with high CP. Many parts of the game are easy enough, even easier with CP power behind you... which is good for the casual gamers, with enough CP behind them, even the ones who have not the skill or reflexes to be supergood at ESO combat can have some really neat success experiences with content balanced for two-player groups (soloing public dungeons, dolmen, pre-wrothgar world bosses, that sort of thing...)

But on the other end of the scale, this may leave the killmasters feeling a little underwhelmed. Some way for them to find a worthy challenge again would be nice... more content existing in "Casual-Veteran-Champion" levels of difficulty, perhaps... where the last one is balanced to challenge good players at CP cap... and reward them accordingly... And not just for dungeons and other groupy stuff... but also solo PvE things. And more then just one arena!
That would be a much better way to keep people interested then more nerfs, methinks...

ADarklore · April 2016

olsborg wrote: »

Im having more fun in pve because:
Its much more challenging, quite simple

Should ZOS remove the current implementation of the champion system and insert something else?

Im fairly convinced the answer is YES.

I always love it how people suggest devs remove something because... they are unwilling to remove it themselves; so 'let's take it away from everyone since I cannot enjoy the game because I'm compelled to use it if it's there' mentality. Unreal. In PvP, I can understand the 'equality' idea... but in PvE?!? What business is it of anyone else if someone is using CP?!? If you want to make it more challenging then YOU disable your CP... but leave MY CP alone!!

NewBlacksmurf · April 2016

Vangy wrote: »

I dont see the big deal about this.

For PvP:
Everyone who enjoys no CP --> go to azura's
Everyone who enjoys CP--> go to had/TF

For PVE:
Does it really matter? Content should be balanced around close to the current CP cap. For example, I presume maw would be balanced to someone with around 250-350 CP since cap is 501. When cap becomes 800, content would be balanced to someone with around 500 CP is my guess. This would make it harder for new players to acquire leaderboard positons but CP dosent stop you from clearing a trial though. It gives everyone something to work towards. AKA, CP dosent matter in PvE.

So its a win-win for all no? Everyone can play the way they want and isnt that what ESO is all about? All that needs to happen is decoupling of offensive stats from defensive stats. ie: More stam/mag should not give you bigger heals/sheilds. Defensive skills such as vigor/ward etc should scale based off health while offensive skills should scale off stam/mag.

For PvE yes it matters a lot. See my thread in my signature.
AND PvE should not be balanced around cp cap which will be a disaster if done. There are hard modes that can be created but no. Maybe CP used as a difficulty slider but that's about it.

See my thread