Rapid Maneuver Change - Good or Bad?

Satiar

Bad Change

Derra wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Master_Kas wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Master_Kas wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

It´s awesome.

Ofc it´s affecting DK and Templar the most as they have no access to a magica based runspeed morph (that should be subject to change). Rapid with speed + soft cc immunity while healing was too powerful. This should under no circumstance be subject to change again.

If people in bigger grps don´t like it - it´s a good change. You´re not supposed to like it. It was meant to hurt.

It has absolutely no effect on our 3 to 6 person grps (apart from enemies not being able to chase as good because their bol spamming healers can´t keep up with DDs - which is good).

Is that a joke? Try playing a small group trying to kite bombard and snare spammers while trying to heal/purge of the debuffs of the enemy zerg chasing you xD

Big groups still have the numbers on their side, small group doesnt.

Edit: wops didn't see who posted it. This affects smaller groups harder than big ones imo. In big groups I got the protection of aoe caps, more heals, more damage dealers. When I play small groups, you need to be able to kite and rebuff/heal up. With this change that's not possible unless you want to be permarooted and snared to death while all their friends come running after you.This change pushes ppl into bigger groups I think.

I'm guessing his small man group all have self-sufficient heals. Because this change otherwise equally effects small groups and zergs.

Not really equally. Zergs can afford to lose more numbers than small/medium groups can.

I'm playing on my sorc mostly anyway so I can pop immovable pot + streak and hardened through breaches and chokepoints. And I run duo / smallgroups latley only so I'm not biased. Can't tell how many times we tried to recover while a angry zerg hunts us down and snares/roots us while we cant heal or purge to even have a chance to kite decently. But this is my opinion you don't have to agree.

Oh, I agree from that respect. I meant there is nothing mechanically different about this spell or how it functions if you have a group of 24 or 4.

I also don't like how this change punishes certain classes more than others. As a sorcerer, I could care less about it. As a templar, it's a whole different story.

That´s why mag DK and templar need a magica speed morph at their disposal. Snare + root immunity while spamming heals was just stupidly op imo.

Maybe, but everyone could do it. Now as a magica build, what really can you do if a few people get on you with bombard? 1-2 dodge rolls and than....?

Master_Kas

Bad Change

Satiar wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Master_Kas wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Master_Kas wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

It´s awesome.

Ofc it´s affecting DK and Templar the most as they have no access to a magica based runspeed morph (that should be subject to change). Rapid with speed + soft cc immunity while healing was too powerful. This should under no circumstance be subject to change again.

If people in bigger grps don´t like it - it´s a good change. You´re not supposed to like it. It was meant to hurt.

It has absolutely no effect on our 3 to 6 person grps (apart from enemies not being able to chase as good because their bol spamming healers can´t keep up with DDs - which is good).

Is that a joke? Try playing a small group trying to kite bombard and snare spammers while trying to heal/purge of the debuffs of the enemy zerg chasing you xD

Big groups still have the numbers on their side, small group doesnt.

Edit: wops didn't see who posted it. This affects smaller groups harder than big ones imo. In big groups I got the protection of aoe caps, more heals, more damage dealers. When I play small groups, you need to be able to kite and rebuff/heal up. With this change that's not possible unless you want to be permarooted and snared to death while all their friends come running after you.This change pushes ppl into bigger groups I think.

I'm guessing his small man group all have self-sufficient heals. Because this change otherwise equally effects small groups and zergs.

Not really equally. Zergs can afford to lose more numbers than small/medium groups can.

I'm playing on my sorc mostly anyway so I can pop immovable pot + streak and hardened through breaches and chokepoints. And I run duo / smallgroups latley only so I'm not biased. Can't tell how many times we tried to recover while a angry zerg hunts us down and snares/roots us while we cant heal or purge to even have a chance to kite decently. But this is my opinion you don't have to agree.

Oh, I agree from that respect. I meant there is nothing mechanically different about this spell or how it functions if you have a group of 24 or 4.

I also don't like how this change punishes certain classes more than others. As a sorcerer, I could care less about it. As a templar, it's a whole different story.

That´s why mag DK and templar need a magica speed morph at their disposal. Snare + root immunity while spamming heals was just stupidly op imo.

Maybe, but everyone could do it. Now as a magica build, what really can you do if a few people get on you with bombard? 1-2 dodge rolls and than....?

Roll over and die. Or wait you can't roll so you just die

Zheg

Bad Change

Derra wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Master_Kas wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Master_Kas wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

It´s awesome.

Ofc it´s affecting DK and Templar the most as they have no access to a magica based runspeed morph (that should be subject to change). Rapid with speed + soft cc immunity while healing was too powerful. This should under no circumstance be subject to change again.

If people in bigger grps don´t like it - it´s a good change. You´re not supposed to like it. It was meant to hurt.

It has absolutely no effect on our 3 to 6 person grps (apart from enemies not being able to chase as good because their bol spamming healers can´t keep up with DDs - which is good).

Is that a joke? Try playing a small group trying to kite bombard and snare spammers while trying to heal/purge of the debuffs of the enemy zerg chasing you xD

Big groups still have the numbers on their side, small group doesnt.

Edit: wops didn't see who posted it. This affects smaller groups harder than big ones imo. In big groups I got the protection of aoe caps, more heals, more damage dealers. When I play small groups, you need to be able to kite and rebuff/heal up. With this change that's not possible unless you want to be permarooted and snared to death while all their friends come running after you.This change pushes ppl into bigger groups I think.

I'm guessing his small man group all have self-sufficient heals. Because this change otherwise equally effects small groups and zergs.

Not really equally. Zergs can afford to lose more numbers than small/medium groups can.

I'm playing on my sorc mostly anyway so I can pop immovable pot + streak and hardened through breaches and chokepoints. And I run duo / smallgroups latley only so I'm not biased. Can't tell how many times we tried to recover while a angry zerg hunts us down and snares/roots us while we cant heal or purge to even have a chance to kite decently. But this is my opinion you don't have to agree.

Oh, I agree from that respect. I meant there is nothing mechanically different about this spell or how it functions if you have a group of 24 or 4.

I also don't like how this change punishes certain classes more than others. As a sorcerer, I could care less about it. As a templar, it's a whole different story.

That´s why mag DK and templar need a magica speed morph at their disposal. Snare + root immunity while spamming heals was just stupidly op imo.

And perma-root and snare is just as stupidly op. The difference between the two extremes is that classes were on a more even playing field before this change, and now sorcs are the clear winner, with nb coming in second, and DK/templars asking their sorc friends to please put down a forward camp.

zyk

Ultimately, I like the change. Rapids was too effective and efficient. It is not how I would have changed the ability, but it is better balanced now.

I wish that it did apply to a limited number of ungrouped players as I miss helping others with it. This *really* hurts the players who like to play ungrouped among other players.

However, its change has highlighted other issues such as the effectiveness of soft CCs and the ability of a range of builds/play styles to counter them.

A lot of this also comes down to personal preference about how fast we'd like gameplay to be and the expectations we have from playing ESO for so long.

The main problem here is the same as every other issue: time, attention and vision. PVP is an afterthought to ZOS. There appears to be no viable overriding vision. Good games aren't made through a democratic process via forums and focus groups. Good games are made by people with good ideas and the passion, time, energy and resources to see them through.

stealthyevil

Bad Change

I feel like I'm walking in peanut butter, make it stop!!! Q_Q

PainfulFAFA

Good Change

I honestly think that the rapid change was needed but it almost feels like the new rapids is bugged.
EVERYTHING is removing the speed buff xD.

I know that group abilities that apply buffs/bonuses to group members removes the buffs but arent there passives in the game that grants bonuses to group members and are those also removing the buff?

Ghost-Shot

Bad Change

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

I honestly think that the rapid change was needed but it almost feels like the new rapids is bugged.
EVERYTHING is removing the speed buff xD.

I know that group abilities that apply buffs/bonuses to group members removes the buffs but arent there passives in the game that grants bonuses to group members and are those also removing the buff?

Thats not a bug thats what Wrobel intended, anything you cast that can effect another player will remove rapids.

Zheg

Bad Change

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

I honestly think that the rapid change was needed but it almost feels like the new rapids is bugged.
EVERYTHING is removing the speed buff xD.

I know that group abilities that apply buffs/bonuses to group members removes the buffs but arent there passives in the game that grants bonuses to group members and are those also removing the buff?

Thats not a bug thats what Wrobel intended, anything you cast that can effect another player will remove rapids.

Part of me wonders if it's because even though players don't know his in-game character name, they subconsciously know who it is and don't want to group with him, so Wrobel wants to run dat solo spec and make people playing in groups miserable.

yamadas

Bad Change

Its is bullsh***
just bring back launch pvp (1.1)

Xsorus

Good Change

timidobserver wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

The rapids nerf needs to go. Wrobel implemented it because this is supposed to be the anti-group patch and he's trying to kill ball groups, but guess what, even with perma roots and no barriers we're still winning. I give him a one finger salute for his efforts, and request that he undo the damage this change has done for all styles of pvp.

You don't even have to pvp to realize what the meta has become. You can literally stand on top of a wall and watch people fighting and realize how slow everyone is moving.

I do not like the change, but ball groups do go down a lot easier now.

Not only that..but Zheg is bragging before Vicious Death becomes Meta.

I have a feeling he's going to be sitting on that middle finger soon enough.

Zheg

Bad Change

Xsorus wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

The rapids nerf needs to go. Wrobel implemented it because this is supposed to be the anti-group patch and he's trying to kill ball groups, but guess what, even with perma roots and no barriers we're still winning. I give him a one finger salute for his efforts, and request that he undo the damage this change has done for all styles of pvp.

You don't even have to pvp to realize what the meta has become. You can literally stand on top of a wall and watch people fighting and realize how slow everyone is moving.

I do not like the change, but ball groups do go down a lot easier now.

Not only that..but Zheg is bragging before Vicious Death becomes Meta.

I have a feeling he's going to be sitting on that middle finger soon enough.

Weren't you supposed to have quit the game as per that cry-for-attention thread? VD only works if people die, so you'll have to actually kill us first, you know, like that one time at band camp DAOC.

frozywozy

Good Change

Zheg wrote: »

The rapids nerf needs to go. Wrobel implemented it because this is supposed to be the anti-group patch and he's trying to kill ball groups, but guess what, even with perma roots and no barriers we're still winning. I give him a one finger salute for his efforts, and request that he undo the damage this change has done for all styles of pvp.

You don't even have to pvp to realize what the meta has become. You can literally stand on top of a wall and watch people fighting and realize how slow everyone is moving.

This is probably one of the best change to counter large groups. You are still winning, Zheg, because there aren't any devoted, active and experienced 24men group still present to offer you any kind of challenge. DC has been the master faction for half a year at least and it is not near to change.

The Maneuver nerf is still one of the best thing Wrobel could have done to counter ballgroups. I just wish he would have sticked to unpurgable meatbags while redesigning the purge mechanism but I guess it was too much asking.

Overall, the change has been working like a charm. When a group runs inside a breach, I usually siege them as much as I can to force them to purge and lose the maneuver buff, then I jump in and cast as many roots and snares as possible to slow them down. It doesn't work well against experienced groups who have people assigned to maneuvers only with 4k stam recovery but on more casual groups, it actually gives us a chance to slow them down and take control of a part of the fight.

It has in no way reduced the effectiveness of any small group I have been running with. Small groups don't relay on maneuvers to run away from a zerg. They relay on spreading out to create confusion and on LoS / choke points. If you are fighting openfield with 6players against a 24men ballgroup, you deserve to die.

Draxys wrote: »

This has become a ridiculous trend since 1.6 update. No one wanted these mechanics changed. No one asked for it, and they didn't even poll the community. They don't play their own game, that much is obvious. So who the hell is telling them to do this stuff? This kind of thing has happened every update it feels like.

Tons of people asked for Maneuvers mechanism to be changed.

Again, well done @Wrobel

Satiar

Bad Change

Xsorus wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

The rapids nerf needs to go. Wrobel implemented it because this is supposed to be the anti-group patch and he's trying to kill ball groups, but guess what, even with perma roots and no barriers we're still winning. I give him a one finger salute for his efforts, and request that he undo the damage this change has done for all styles of pvp.

You don't even have to pvp to realize what the meta has become. You can literally stand on top of a wall and watch people fighting and realize how slow everyone is moving.

I do not like the change, but ball groups do go down a lot easier now.

Not only that..but Zheg is bragging before Vicious Death becomes Meta.

I have a feeling he's going to be sitting on that middle finger soon enough.

If anything we will die less. Most of my deaths come from pushing hard or rediculous targets, because it's fun to try. But when it changes from "hard" to "suicide mission" I'll just stop pushing that stuff.

Another week or so of trial and error and most guilds will figure out what is doable and what isn't. We're already learning our limits when it comes to damage absorption, open field maneuverability (lol) and damage output. VD is just another factor to consider at this point

Satiar

Bad Change

frozywozy wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

The rapids nerf needs to go. Wrobel implemented it because this is supposed to be the anti-group patch and he's trying to kill ball groups, but guess what, even with perma roots and no barriers we're still winning. I give him a one finger salute for his efforts, and request that he undo the damage this change has done for all styles of pvp.

You don't even have to pvp to realize what the meta has become. You can literally stand on top of a wall and watch people fighting and realize how slow everyone is moving.

This is probably one of the best change to counter large groups. You are still winning, Zheg, because there aren't any devoted, active and experienced 24men group still present to offer you any kind of challenge. DC has been the master faction for half a year at least and it is not near to change.

The Maneuver nerf is still one of the best thing Wrobel could have done to counter ballgroups. I just wish he would have sticked to unpurgable meatbags while redesigning the purge mechanism but I guess it was too much asking.

Overall, the change has been working like a charm. When a group runs inside a breach, I usually siege them as much as I can to force them to purge and lose the maneuver buff, then I jump in and cast as many roots and snares as possible to slow them down. It doesn't work well against experienced groups who have people assigned to maneuvers only with 4k stam recovery but on more casual groups, it actually gives us a chance to slow them down and take control of a part of the fight.

It has in no way reduced the effectiveness of any small group I have been running with. Small groups don't relay on maneuvers to run away from a zerg. They relay on spreading out to create confusion and on LoS / choke points. If you are fighting openfield with 6players against a 24men ballgroup, you deserve to die.

Draxys wrote: »

This has become a ridiculous trend since 1.6 update. No one wanted these mechanics changed. No one asked for it, and they didn't even poll the community. They don't play their own game, that much is obvious. So who the hell is telling them to do this stuff? This kind of thing has happened every update it feels like.

Tons of people asked for Maneuvers mechanism to be changed.

Again, well done @Wrobel

I run small groups late at night. 4-10 people. I hate the change more for that than raids, raids it's manageable but trying to kite 30 people into a choke when you're being bombard spammed and healing removes your speed..... Blergh.

Zheg

Bad Change

frozywozy wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

The rapids nerf needs to go. Wrobel implemented it because this is supposed to be the anti-group patch and he's trying to kill ball groups, but guess what, even with perma roots and no barriers we're still winning. I give him a one finger salute for his efforts, and request that he undo the damage this change has done for all styles of pvp.

You don't even have to pvp to realize what the meta has become. You can literally stand on top of a wall and watch people fighting and realize how slow everyone is moving.

This is probably one of the best change to counter large groups. You are still winning, Zheg, because there aren't any devoted, active and experienced 24men group still present to offer you any kind of challenge. DC has been the master faction for half a year at least and it is not near to change.

The Maneuver nerf is still one of the best thing Wrobel could have done to counter ballgroups. I just wish he would have sticked to unpurgable meatbags while redesigning the purge mechanism but I guess it was too much asking.

Overall, the change has been working like a charm. When a group runs inside a breach, I usually siege them as much as I can to force them to purge and lose the maneuver buff, then I jump in and cast as many roots and snares as possible to slow them down. It doesn't work well against experienced groups who have people assigned to maneuvers only with 4k stam recovery but on more casual groups, it actually gives us a chance to slow them down and take control of a part of the fight.

Again, well done @Wrobel

If your breach tactic doesn't work well on experienced groups, then how exactly does this all add up to being a good thing? The rapids nerf lets you kill pugs and inexperienced players better, so it's yay-worthy? And more importantly, how will people sprint away from fights at lightning speed with the snare/root meta? xD

There are hardly any groups left to fight, but that is an artifact of wrobel and ZOS' inability to fix the lag. We (and the other blue guilds) will all be gone in a few months as well, we just didn't want to make the temporary jump to a filler-game like BDO.

If we're being fully honest, we haven't even employed some of the more cheese-tacular tactics we theorycrafted in response to the changes because we haven't needed to use them yet. The only thing that will 'kill ball groups' is a viable alternative on the market for everyone to just finally pull the plug and leave ESO.

No one is complaining about the rapids nerf because it kills ball groups (even though it's clearly aimed at anti-group play), people are complaining almost exclusively because no one wants to move at a snails pace for all of their pvp fights and it affects everyone - not just groups; we have people running bombard and talons too, you'll be just as rooted as us brah. The other complaint is that it artificially favors some classes over others because @Wrobel has asinine ideas about 'homogenization'.

Skyy

Good Change

I'm okay with it breaking when you cast something, but I think it's stupid you have to be in group to get it. Limit the number of people it affects and prioritize group members fine, but it should still be able to hit others.

ToRelax

Good Change

Zheg wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

The rapids nerf needs to go. Wrobel implemented it because this is supposed to be the anti-group patch and he's trying to kill ball groups, but guess what, even with perma roots and no barriers we're still winning. I give him a one finger salute for his efforts, and request that he undo the damage this change has done for all styles of pvp.

You don't even have to pvp to realize what the meta has become. You can literally stand on top of a wall and watch people fighting and realize how slow everyone is moving.

This is probably one of the best change to counter large groups. You are still winning, Zheg, because there aren't any devoted, active and experienced 24men group still present to offer you any kind of challenge. DC has been the master faction for half a year at least and it is not near to change.

The Maneuver nerf is still one of the best thing Wrobel could have done to counter ballgroups. I just wish he would have sticked to unpurgable meatbags while redesigning the purge mechanism but I guess it was too much asking.

Overall, the change has been working like a charm. When a group runs inside a breach, I usually siege them as much as I can to force them to purge and lose the maneuver buff, then I jump in and cast as many roots and snares as possible to slow them down. It doesn't work well against experienced groups who have people assigned to maneuvers only with 4k stam recovery but on more casual groups, it actually gives us a chance to slow them down and take control of a part of the fight.

Again, well done @Wrobel

If your breach tactic doesn't work well on experienced groups, then how exactly does this all add up to being a good thing? The rapids nerf lets you kill pugs and inexperienced players better, so it's yay-worthy? And more importantly, how will people sprint away from fights at lightning speed with the snare/root meta? xD

There are hardly any groups left to fight, but that is an artifact of wrobel and ZOS' inability to fix the lag. We (and the other blue guilds) will all be gone in a few months as well, we just didn't want to make the temporary jump to a filler-game like BDO.

If we're being fully honest, we haven't even employed some of the more cheese-tacular tactics we theorycrafted in response to the changes because we haven't needed to use them yet. The only thing that will 'kill ball groups' is a viable alternative on the market for everyone to just finally pull the plug and leave ESO.

No one is complaining about the rapids nerf because it kills ball groups (even though it's clearly aimed at anti-group play), people are complaining almost exclusively because no one wants to move at a snails pace for all of their pvp fights and it affects everyone - not just groups; we have people running bombard and talons too, you'll be just as rooted as us brah. The other complaint is that it artificially favors some classes over others because @Wrobel has asinine ideas about 'homogenization'.

It's "yay-worthy" because it takes an advantage away from an already heavily favoured style of play. It may not be enough to make more experienced players using it switch consider switching that out completely, but it goes in the right direction. It certainly does not help combat random zergs, just bad zergballs.

Satiar

Bad Change

ToRelax wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

The rapids nerf needs to go. Wrobel implemented it because this is supposed to be the anti-group patch and he's trying to kill ball groups, but guess what, even with perma roots and no barriers we're still winning. I give him a one finger salute for his efforts, and request that he undo the damage this change has done for all styles of pvp.

You don't even have to pvp to realize what the meta has become. You can literally stand on top of a wall and watch people fighting and realize how slow everyone is moving.

This is probably one of the best change to counter large groups. You are still winning, Zheg, because there aren't any devoted, active and experienced 24men group still present to offer you any kind of challenge. DC has been the master faction for half a year at least and it is not near to change.

The Maneuver nerf is still one of the best thing Wrobel could have done to counter ballgroups. I just wish he would have sticked to unpurgable meatbags while redesigning the purge mechanism but I guess it was too much asking.

Overall, the change has been working like a charm. When a group runs inside a breach, I usually siege them as much as I can to force them to purge and lose the maneuver buff, then I jump in and cast as many roots and snares as possible to slow them down. It doesn't work well against experienced groups who have people assigned to maneuvers only with 4k stam recovery but on more casual groups, it actually gives us a chance to slow them down and take control of a part of the fight.

Again, well done @Wrobel

If your breach tactic doesn't work well on experienced groups, then how exactly does this all add up to being a good thing? The rapids nerf lets you kill pugs and inexperienced players better, so it's yay-worthy? And more importantly, how will people sprint away from fights at lightning speed with the snare/root meta? xD

There are hardly any groups left to fight, but that is an artifact of wrobel and ZOS' inability to fix the lag. We (and the other blue guilds) will all be gone in a few months as well, we just didn't want to make the temporary jump to a filler-game like BDO.

If we're being fully honest, we haven't even employed some of the more cheese-tacular tactics we theorycrafted in response to the changes because we haven't needed to use them yet. The only thing that will 'kill ball groups' is a viable alternative on the market for everyone to just finally pull the plug and leave ESO.

No one is complaining about the rapids nerf because it kills ball groups (even though it's clearly aimed at anti-group play), people are complaining almost exclusively because no one wants to move at a snails pace for all of their pvp fights and it affects everyone - not just groups; we have people running bombard and talons too, you'll be just as rooted as us brah. The other complaint is that it artificially favors some classes over others because @Wrobel has asinine ideas about 'homogenization'.

It's "yay-worthy" because it takes an advantage away from an already heavily favoured style of play. It may not be enough to make more experienced players using it switch consider switching that out completely, but it goes in the right direction. It certainly does not help combat random zergs, just bad zergballs.

Bad zergs were already wipable with 5-10 people.

ToRelax

Good Change

Satiar wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

The rapids nerf needs to go. Wrobel implemented it because this is supposed to be the anti-group patch and he's trying to kill ball groups, but guess what, even with perma roots and no barriers we're still winning. I give him a one finger salute for his efforts, and request that he undo the damage this change has done for all styles of pvp.

You don't even have to pvp to realize what the meta has become. You can literally stand on top of a wall and watch people fighting and realize how slow everyone is moving.

This is probably one of the best change to counter large groups. You are still winning, Zheg, because there aren't any devoted, active and experienced 24men group still present to offer you any kind of challenge. DC has been the master faction for half a year at least and it is not near to change.

The Maneuver nerf is still one of the best thing Wrobel could have done to counter ballgroups. I just wish he would have sticked to unpurgable meatbags while redesigning the purge mechanism but I guess it was too much asking.

Overall, the change has been working like a charm. When a group runs inside a breach, I usually siege them as much as I can to force them to purge and lose the maneuver buff, then I jump in and cast as many roots and snares as possible to slow them down. It doesn't work well against experienced groups who have people assigned to maneuvers only with 4k stam recovery but on more casual groups, it actually gives us a chance to slow them down and take control of a part of the fight.

Again, well done @Wrobel

If your breach tactic doesn't work well on experienced groups, then how exactly does this all add up to being a good thing? The rapids nerf lets you kill pugs and inexperienced players better, so it's yay-worthy? And more importantly, how will people sprint away from fights at lightning speed with the snare/root meta? xD

There are hardly any groups left to fight, but that is an artifact of wrobel and ZOS' inability to fix the lag. We (and the other blue guilds) will all be gone in a few months as well, we just didn't want to make the temporary jump to a filler-game like BDO.

If we're being fully honest, we haven't even employed some of the more cheese-tacular tactics we theorycrafted in response to the changes because we haven't needed to use them yet. The only thing that will 'kill ball groups' is a viable alternative on the market for everyone to just finally pull the plug and leave ESO.

No one is complaining about the rapids nerf because it kills ball groups (even though it's clearly aimed at anti-group play), people are complaining almost exclusively because no one wants to move at a snails pace for all of their pvp fights and it affects everyone - not just groups; we have people running bombard and talons too, you'll be just as rooted as us brah. The other complaint is that it artificially favors some classes over others because @Wrobel has asinine ideas about 'homogenization'.

It's "yay-worthy" because it takes an advantage away from an already heavily favoured style of play. It may not be enough to make more experienced players using it switch consider switching that out completely, but it goes in the right direction. It certainly does not help combat random zergs, just bad zergballs.

Bad zergs were already wipable with 5-10 people.

That depends on both the zerg and the ones trying to fight them. I haven't been running with more than 5 players in a group for a long time, sounds scary. And when you just stack enough players anyone can win.

frozywozy

Good Change

Zheg wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

The rapids nerf needs to go. Wrobel implemented it because this is supposed to be the anti-group patch and he's trying to kill ball groups, but guess what, even with perma roots and no barriers we're still winning. I give him a one finger salute for his efforts, and request that he undo the damage this change has done for all styles of pvp.

You don't even have to pvp to realize what the meta has become. You can literally stand on top of a wall and watch people fighting and realize how slow everyone is moving.

This is probably one of the best change to counter large groups. You are still winning, Zheg, because there aren't any devoted, active and experienced 24men group still present to offer you any kind of challenge. DC has been the master faction for half a year at least and it is not near to change.

The Maneuver nerf is still one of the best thing Wrobel could have done to counter ballgroups. I just wish he would have sticked to unpurgable meatbags while redesigning the purge mechanism but I guess it was too much asking.

Overall, the change has been working like a charm. When a group runs inside a breach, I usually siege them as much as I can to force them to purge and lose the maneuver buff, then I jump in and cast as many roots and snares as possible to slow them down. It doesn't work well against experienced groups who have people assigned to maneuvers only with 4k stam recovery but on more casual groups, it actually gives us a chance to slow them down and take control of a part of the fight.

Again, well done @Wrobel

If your breach tactic doesn't work well on experienced groups, then how exactly does this all add up to being a good thing? The rapids nerf lets you kill pugs and inexperienced players better, so it's yay-worthy? And more importantly, how will people sprint away from fights at lightning speed with the snare/root meta? xD

I've answered this in my post. I've said that this change gives us a chance against disorganized groups to take control of a part of the fight. This means that the change is working AGAINST large groups maneuvers/purges spammers and gives us a possibility to deal with them. Now, how do we deal with experienced ballgroups?

1) Remove AOE caps
2) Bring back Dynamic Ultimate Generation
3) Get competent, active and experienced players to teamup with
4) Relay on quality gameplay over quantity and zerging

In other words, step up your gameplay and get better at what you're doing.

If we're being fully honest, we haven't even employed some of the more cheese-tacular tactics we theorycrafted in response to the changes because we haven't needed to use them yet. The only thing that will 'kill ball groups' is a viable alternative on the market for everyone to just finally pull the plug and leave ESO.

I don't know about what you do, but I've seen plenty of DC ballgroups spamming meteors showers followed by templars spamming 15k ticks radiant destruction left and right in Cyrodiil. Meteor can't be reflected anymore, I can deal with it. But Meteor knocking you back over and over and over as soon as you get back up not giving CC imunity.. But I'm probably wasting my breath because you guys obviously don't use meteor, amiright?

No one is complaining about the rapids nerf because it kills ball groups (even though it's clearly aimed at anti-group play), people are complaining almost exclusively because no one wants to move at a snails pace for all of their pvp fights and it affects everyone - not just groups; we have people running bombard and talons too, you'll be just as rooted as us brah. The other complaint is that it artificially favors some classes over others because @Wrobel has asinine ideas about 'homogenization'.

Again, if a small group fight openfield against a 24men group, they deserves to die. No matter what. Otherwise, great use of LoS, choke points and spreading out to mess up the enemy raid leader has always been my way to go.

Satiar

Bad Change

Oh no I use meteor. Moment fall damage was off it we all swapped, already did a few days of testing pre patch. No reflects sealed it.

SmalltalkJava

Good Change

Its nice that people have to stay and fight instead of easy mode kiting

Mojmir

Bad Change

SmalltalkJava wrote: »

Its nice that people have to stay and fight instead of easy mode kiting

who the hell uses rapids to run away? ive never seen this

Muizer

Good Change

Will have to see how this works out but I'm not sure any ability based approach is going to counter zergs. They're trying, but I have this feeling they're bound to hit small groups just as hard as big ones.

I don't like RM personally though, so I can't really be bothered with this bit of experimentation.

kuro-dono

the amount of abusing all those aoe skills get in this game, ruin the fun for casuals who have no clue how to defend, thats why there happen continuously this farming since folks cant get someone or some folks killed, then they become more obsessed getting them killed, and even further frustrated, any kind of debuff on aoe skills will make it lot better for casuals, if it ruins the fun for elites, i go boohoo since this game pvp isnt about elites, its all about having fun and allowing others to have fun too.

Xsorus

Good Change

Zheg wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

The rapids nerf needs to go. Wrobel implemented it because this is supposed to be the anti-group patch and he's trying to kill ball groups, but guess what, even with perma roots and no barriers we're still winning. I give him a one finger salute for his efforts, and request that he undo the damage this change has done for all styles of pvp.

You don't even have to pvp to realize what the meta has become. You can literally stand on top of a wall and watch people fighting and realize how slow everyone is moving.

I do not like the change, but ball groups do go down a lot easier now.

Not only that..but Zheg is bragging before Vicious Death becomes Meta.

I have a feeling he's going to be sitting on that middle finger soon enough.

Weren't you supposed to have quit the game as per that cry-for-attention thread? VD only works if people die, so you'll have to actually kill us first, you know, like that one time at band camp DAOC.

Its not hard if ya play a Prox/Tether Nightblade....Well....I should say if its not lagging...Last night I hit a stack of about 15 people i'd say in a corner....I killed 3 of them out right before they ran away from each other...If had VD i would of wiped that whole group instantly.

Xsorus

Good Change

Satiar wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

The rapids nerf needs to go. Wrobel implemented it because this is supposed to be the anti-group patch and he's trying to kill ball groups, but guess what, even with perma roots and no barriers we're still winning. I give him a one finger salute for his efforts, and request that he undo the damage this change has done for all styles of pvp.

You don't even have to pvp to realize what the meta has become. You can literally stand on top of a wall and watch people fighting and realize how slow everyone is moving.

I do not like the change, but ball groups do go down a lot easier now.

Not only that..but Zheg is bragging before Vicious Death becomes Meta.

I have a feeling he's going to be sitting on that middle finger soon enough.

If anything we will die less. Most of my deaths come from pushing hard or rediculous targets, because it's fun to try. But when it changes from "hard" to "suicide mission" I'll just stop pushing that stuff.

Another week or so of trial and error and most guilds will figure out what is doable and what isn't. We're already learning our limits when it comes to damage absorption, open field maneuverability (lol) and damage output. VD is just another factor to consider at this point

I've noticed Ball Groups a lot less ballsy then before..the first time there were some ball groups that tried running into pugs and such and instantly died cause Barrier I'm assume wasn't up to save them anymore

Like I said before...I think Prox/Tether NBs with VD is going to end up being the bane of these groups..Esp if you end up with 3 or 4 of them running together...

Zheg

Bad Change

Xsorus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

The rapids nerf needs to go. Wrobel implemented it because this is supposed to be the anti-group patch and he's trying to kill ball groups, but guess what, even with perma roots and no barriers we're still winning. I give him a one finger salute for his efforts, and request that he undo the damage this change has done for all styles of pvp.

You don't even have to pvp to realize what the meta has become. You can literally stand on top of a wall and watch people fighting and realize how slow everyone is moving.

I do not like the change, but ball groups do go down a lot easier now.

Not only that..but Zheg is bragging before Vicious Death becomes Meta.

I have a feeling he's going to be sitting on that middle finger soon enough.

If anything we will die less. Most of my deaths come from pushing hard or rediculous targets, because it's fun to try. But when it changes from "hard" to "suicide mission" I'll just stop pushing that stuff.

Another week or so of trial and error and most guilds will figure out what is doable and what isn't. We're already learning our limits when it comes to damage absorption, open field maneuverability (lol) and damage output. VD is just another factor to consider at this point

I've noticed Ball Groups a lot less ballsy then before..the first time there were some ball groups that tried running into pugs and such and instantly died cause Barrier I'm assume wasn't up to save them anymore

Like I said before...I think Prox/Tether NBs with VD is going to end up being the bane of these groups..Esp if you end up with 3 or 4 of them running together...

And then it just becomes a matter of who gets their bomb off first, group 1's NB or group 2's NB. It ends up removing any kind of back and forth during actual combat, it's simply a matter of who can hit prox det, wait 6 seconds, then gap close and hit their ultimate. The burst is moronic right now, and removes the incentives and opportunities to have good back-and-forth during fights.

So far almost all of our predictions for what the meta would look like are shaping up to be accurate. Thanks to forward camps, maybe 75% of the entire population was at glademist last night and the lag was so bad I couldn't even weapon swap. Eventually we left to go hit another objective and try to siphon people AP away, but the lag was just as bad. Then we ended up at alessia where almost the same numbers (but skewed towards yellow and red this time instead of blue and yellow) were in perpetual, never ending combat because there were so many people that as soon as you get enough deaths you just put down a forward camp. WW2 tried sooooo hard to eliminate groups in this patch, but almost every change has impacted soloers and small groups just as much, or backfired and caused the entire server to hit a single objective and bring on the lag. Eventually ZOS will realize the problem is their amateurish code and the Wrobel-led combat team, but it won't matter because everyone will have left their game to go play CU or something else.

If you'd like, I'll give you another week so VD is in the equation and when groups like ours are still alive and doing fine, and the lag is still there or worse because there are now 150 people at every keep fight thanks to forward camps and the incentive to bring more and more numbers because of how easy it is to wipe with the stupidly high damage numbers in game, I will unabashedly remind you that I told you so.

ToRelax

Good Change

Zheg wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

The rapids nerf needs to go. Wrobel implemented it because this is supposed to be the anti-group patch and he's trying to kill ball groups, but guess what, even with perma roots and no barriers we're still winning. I give him a one finger salute for his efforts, and request that he undo the damage this change has done for all styles of pvp.

You don't even have to pvp to realize what the meta has become. You can literally stand on top of a wall and watch people fighting and realize how slow everyone is moving.

I do not like the change, but ball groups do go down a lot easier now.

Not only that..but Zheg is bragging before Vicious Death becomes Meta.

I have a feeling he's going to be sitting on that middle finger soon enough.

If anything we will die less. Most of my deaths come from pushing hard or rediculous targets, because it's fun to try. But when it changes from "hard" to "suicide mission" I'll just stop pushing that stuff.

Another week or so of trial and error and most guilds will figure out what is doable and what isn't. We're already learning our limits when it comes to damage absorption, open field maneuverability (lol) and damage output. VD is just another factor to consider at this point

I've noticed Ball Groups a lot less ballsy then before..the first time there were some ball groups that tried running into pugs and such and instantly died cause Barrier I'm assume wasn't up to save them anymore

Like I said before...I think Prox/Tether NBs with VD is going to end up being the bane of these groups..Esp if you end up with 3 or 4 of them running together...

And then it just becomes a matter of who gets their bomb off first, group 1's NB or group 2's NB. It ends up removing any kind of back and forth during actual combat, it's simply a matter of who can hit prox det, wait 6 seconds, then gap close and hit their ultimate. The burst is moronic right now, and removes the incentives and opportunities to have good back-and-forth during fights.

So far almost all of our predictions for what the meta would look like are shaping up to be accurate. Thanks to forward camps, maybe 75% of the entire population was at glademist last night and the lag was so bad I couldn't even weapon swap. Eventually we left to go hit another objective and try to siphon people AP away, but the lag was just as bad. Then we ended up at alessia where almost the same numbers (but skewed towards yellow and red this time instead of blue and yellow) were in perpetual, never ending combat because there were so many people that as soon as you get enough deaths you just put down a forward camp. WW2 tried sooooo hard to eliminate groups in this patch, but almost every change has impacted soloers and small groups just as much, or backfired and caused the entire server to hit a single objective and bring on the lag. Eventually ZOS will realize the problem is their amateurish code and the Wrobel-led combat team, but it won't matter because everyone will have left their game to go play CU or something else.

If you'd like, I'll give you another week so VD is in the equation and when groups like ours are still alive and doing fine, and the lag is still there or worse because there are now 150 people at every keep fight thanks to forward camps and the incentive to bring more and more numbers because of how easy it is to wipe with the stupidly high damage numbers in game, I will unabashedly remind you that I told you so.

The fights aren't a matter of who gets their "bomb" off first when you can't kill the enemy group with it anyway, because they only stack when needed and are careful not to expose themselves to AoE then.

Derra

Good Change

Satiar wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Master_Kas wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Master_Kas wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

It´s awesome.

Ofc it´s affecting DK and Templar the most as they have no access to a magica based runspeed morph (that should be subject to change). Rapid with speed + soft cc immunity while healing was too powerful. This should under no circumstance be subject to change again.

If people in bigger grps don´t like it - it´s a good change. You´re not supposed to like it. It was meant to hurt.

It has absolutely no effect on our 3 to 6 person grps (apart from enemies not being able to chase as good because their bol spamming healers can´t keep up with DDs - which is good).

Is that a joke? Try playing a small group trying to kite bombard and snare spammers while trying to heal/purge of the debuffs of the enemy zerg chasing you xD

Big groups still have the numbers on their side, small group doesnt.

Edit: wops didn't see who posted it. This affects smaller groups harder than big ones imo. In big groups I got the protection of aoe caps, more heals, more damage dealers. When I play small groups, you need to be able to kite and rebuff/heal up. With this change that's not possible unless you want to be permarooted and snared to death while all their friends come running after you.This change pushes ppl into bigger groups I think.

I'm guessing his small man group all have self-sufficient heals. Because this change otherwise equally effects small groups and zergs.

Not really equally. Zergs can afford to lose more numbers than small/medium groups can.

I'm playing on my sorc mostly anyway so I can pop immovable pot + streak and hardened through breaches and chokepoints. And I run duo / smallgroups latley only so I'm not biased. Can't tell how many times we tried to recover while a angry zerg hunts us down and snares/roots us while we cant heal or purge to even have a chance to kite decently. But this is my opinion you don't have to agree.

Oh, I agree from that respect. I meant there is nothing mechanically different about this spell or how it functions if you have a group of 24 or 4.

I also don't like how this change punishes certain classes more than others. As a sorcerer, I could care less about it. As a templar, it's a whole different story.

That´s why mag DK and templar need a magica speed morph at their disposal. Snare + root immunity while spamming heals was just stupidly op imo.

Maybe, but everyone could do it. Now as a magica build, what really can you do if a few people get on you with bombard? 1-2 dodge rolls and than....?

I´m a strong advocate of having a root/snare immunity that´s treated seperatly from normal cc immunity.