Burning embers 100k heal.....GJ "balancing"

Autolycus

Is this a complaint thread? Just wondering because everywhere else in the world DKs are celebrating (myself included).

Autolycus

AfkNinja wrote: »

/sigh

you said:
"Alcast recorded an ~100k heal from Burning Embers in PvE after surely the full 8.5 second duration expired. This means that after waiting 8.5 seconds you received overall ~100k healing, thus HPS=~11,764."

11,764 health per second, if you wait two seconds it's practically a full hp heal that can be applied to multiple enemies. In pvp this would be ~5882, almost 6k HP a second once again that can be applied to multiple people. A DK healing 6K+ hp a second is going to be nigh unkillable. All this WHILE DEALING DAMAGE. For a Templar to heal that much they do no dmg.

DK are mitigation experts, you really don't see an issue with an ability that can be stacked on multiple people for 6k+ hp a second? Even if they only wait 2 seconds to pop it that's a 12k hp heal. A Mitigation DK could stand there and block and watch you burn to death before you'd ever move his HP. But that's totally fine with you of course cause you main a DK. Be objective please, this is unbalanced. Not asking them to nerf it hard, but as is that's way too powerful.

Oh no, DKs can heal and damage at the same time?! That's absurd, and it needs to stahp right nau!

Seriously, my magblade can heal and damage at the same time. Oh wait, so can templars. Oh wait, so can Sorcs....

AfkNinja

Autolycus wrote: »

AfkNinja wrote: »

/sigh

you said:
"Alcast recorded an ~100k heal from Burning Embers in PvE after surely the full 8.5 second duration expired. This means that after waiting 8.5 seconds you received overall ~100k healing, thus HPS=~11,764."

11,764 health per second, if you wait two seconds it's practically a full hp heal that can be applied to multiple enemies. In pvp this would be ~5882, almost 6k HP a second once again that can be applied to multiple people. A DK healing 6K+ hp a second is going to be nigh unkillable. All this WHILE DEALING DAMAGE. For a Templar to heal that much they do no dmg.

DK are mitigation experts, you really don't see an issue with an ability that can be stacked on multiple people for 6k+ hp a second? Even if they only wait 2 seconds to pop it that's a 12k hp heal. A Mitigation DK could stand there and block and watch you burn to death before you'd ever move his HP. But that's totally fine with you of course cause you main a DK. Be objective please, this is unbalanced. Not asking them to nerf it hard, but as is that's way too powerful.

Oh no, DKs can heal and damage at the same time?! That's absurd, and it needs to stahp right nau!

Seriously, my magblade can heal and damage at the same time. Oh wait, so can templars. Oh wait, so can Sorcs....

My issue isn't with you healing and doing damage at the same time. My issue is the healing amount seems a bit too powerful. 6,000 heath per second (per applied target), on top of natural regen and other heals available to DK just seems too strong overall imo. How much healing do you think is fair?

Autolycus

AfkNinja wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

AfkNinja wrote: »

/sigh

you said:
"Alcast recorded an ~100k heal from Burning Embers in PvE after surely the full 8.5 second duration expired. This means that after waiting 8.5 seconds you received overall ~100k healing, thus HPS=~11,764."

11,764 health per second, if you wait two seconds it's practically a full hp heal that can be applied to multiple enemies. In pvp this would be ~5882, almost 6k HP a second once again that can be applied to multiple people. A DK healing 6K+ hp a second is going to be nigh unkillable. All this WHILE DEALING DAMAGE. For a Templar to heal that much they do no dmg.

DK are mitigation experts, you really don't see an issue with an ability that can be stacked on multiple people for 6k+ hp a second? Even if they only wait 2 seconds to pop it that's a 12k hp heal. A Mitigation DK could stand there and block and watch you burn to death before you'd ever move his HP. But that's totally fine with you of course cause you main a DK. Be objective please, this is unbalanced. Not asking them to nerf it hard, but as is that's way too powerful.

Oh no, DKs can heal and damage at the same time?! That's absurd, and it needs to stahp right nau!

Seriously, my magblade can heal and damage at the same time. Oh wait, so can templars. Oh wait, so can Sorcs....

My issue isn't with you healing and doing damage at the same time. My issue is the healing amount seems a bit too powerful. 6,000 heath per second (per applied target), on top of natural regen and other heals available to DK just seems too strong overall imo. How much healing do you think is fair?

I was mostly being sarcastic, so no offense intended of course. In certain situations it does feel a bit strong, but I see really strong heals coming from people on every class. My magblade's swallow soul crits for like 14k on players, the heal begins immediately and stacks, so you can easily stack up 6k HPS within a couple of seconds. Sorcs don't have as much pure healing potential, but crit heals from crit surge are typically undervalued here on the forums. Admittedly there are a lot of scenarios where we can't crit or healing is diminished. Stamplars likely have it the worst, relying pretty much entirely on vigor and rally, although purifying ritual + vigor/rally is effective.

Just as there are limitations to those classes, there are also limitations to DK healing as well. I think that this healing was a much needed adjustment for DKs. Even if it's not exactly where it needs to be right now, it's on the right track imho. There are ways to mitigate the damage and reduce the healing effectiveness, so I don't consider it OP.

I've been playing a DK healer (yes, a real DK healer, I know it's hard to believe) for over a year now. What I can do on him still far surpasses what burning embers can do. In pvp my healing springs are roughly 4k per tick, Cauterize heals for 7-10k (instant, spammable) and stonefist is a little lower, but comparable. All three of these are instant gratification, compared to having to track and reapply the DoT. It seems like a fair tradeoff to me; reapply and get a stronger heal, or go elsewhere for instant heals.

Tonnopesce

Something strange here.
I usual spam burning embers a lot since the "buff" and the heal never go over 8-9k not critted, i'm sure you are creating this "bug" somehow or you have found a way to make the various hits to stack together.
In pvp is almost useless since there is the battle spirit, and in the best case you get 25% of what the skill tooltip says.
Really really unusual.

tinythinker

Yeah, not sure what gear is being used by the OP, but my tooltip is 1/7 of that, and wouldn't come close even with a critical hit, so it's going to be great when people call for nerfs

Alcast

Tonnopesceb16_ESO wrote: »

Something strange here.
I usual spam burning embers a lot since the "buff" and the heal never go over 8-9k not critted, i'm sure you are creating this "bug" somehow or you have found a way to make the various hits to stack together.
In pvp is almost useless since there is the battle spirit, and in the best case you get 25% of what the skill tooltip says.
Really really unusual.

Aggro Warhorn, Spellpowercure, Powerful assault..debuff on boss.

So DAMAGE is really crazy high over the whole DoT. And if you let it run out you will get that 100k

Tonnopesce

Alcast wrote: »

Tonnopesceb16_ESO wrote: »

Something strange here.
I usual spam burning embers a lot since the "buff" and the heal never go over 8-9k not critted, i'm sure you are creating this "bug" somehow or you have found a way to make the various hits to stack together.
In pvp is almost useless since there is the battle spirit, and in the best case you get 25% of what the skill tooltip says.
Really really unusual.

Aggro Warhorn, Spellpowercure, Powerful assault..debuff on boss.

So DAMAGE is really crazy high over the whole DoT. And if you let it run out you will get that 100k

Not an easy to get set the spellpower cure; i will try this evening with a Kena + Clever alchemist set up (4k spell damage) and see if it this simple.
I was expecting something like 100 CP into traumaturge and the Elf Bane set but i can try even this one.
Which debuff you use?

Alcast

Tonnopesceb16_ESO wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Tonnopesceb16_ESO wrote: »

Something strange here.
I usual spam burning embers a lot since the "buff" and the heal never go over 8-9k not critted, i'm sure you are creating this "bug" somehow or you have found a way to make the various hits to stack together.
In pvp is almost useless since there is the battle spirit, and in the best case you get 25% of what the skill tooltip says.
Really really unusual.

Aggro Warhorn, Spellpowercure, Powerful assault..debuff on boss.

So DAMAGE is really crazy high over the whole DoT. And if you let it run out you will get that 100k

Not an easy to get set the spellpower cure; i will try this evening with a Kena + Clever alchemist set up (4k spell damage) and see if it this simple.
I was expecting something like 100 CP into traumaturge and the Elf Bane set but i can try even this one.
Which debuff you use?

On PTS when i was Solo I tried it with Kena and Julianos and I got to a 48k heal iirc. Alone you cannot reach 100k. You need Aggro Warhorn and all the other stuff up, which is mostly provided in a trial environment.

Autolycus

While I think this concept is very interesting and merits discussion, I think there should be a disclaimer attached to this stating that it is highly situational and requires multiple controlled variables to succeed. In practice, most DKs will not reach this potential under normal circumstances. While it's commendable and respectable to achieve this type of heal return, it will very rarely occur in pvp or dungeon settings. Fights in pvp are too short, plus Burning Embers faces a two-fold reduction from Battle Spirit. In dungeons, fights are way too short, and most people will rarely, if ever, be in a group where Agg. War Horn, Powerful Assault, and SPC are all active. As Alcast mentioned, the likelihood of something like this occurring lies predominantly in a trial setting.

AfkNinja

Autolycus wrote: »

While I think this concept is very interesting and merits discussion, I think there should be a disclaimer attached to this stating that it is highly situational and requires multiple controlled variables to succeed. In practice, most DKs will not reach this potential under normal circumstances. While it's commendable and respectable to achieve this type of heal return, it will very rarely occur in pvp or dungeon settings. Fights in pvp are too short, plus Burning Embers faces a two-fold reduction from Battle Spirit. In dungeons, fights are way too short, and most people will rarely, if ever, be in a group where Agg. War Horn, Powerful Assault, and SPC are all active. As Alcast mentioned, the likelihood of something like this occurring lies almost entirely in a trial setting.

Very good point, I wasn't properly taking into account the full situation of how he got those numbers. ZOS hasn't made a comment on it either so it's likely this has been a non-issue in pvp. Still, those numbers are quite impressive.

Destruent

Autolycus wrote: »

While I think this concept is very interesting and merits discussion, I think there should be a disclaimer attached to this stating that it is highly situational and requires multiple controlled variables to succeed. In practice, most DKs will not reach this potential under normal circumstances. While it's commendable and respectable to achieve this type of heal return, it will very rarely occur in pvp or dungeon settings. Fights in pvp are too short, plus Burning Embers faces a two-fold reduction from Battle Spirit. In dungeons, fights are way too short, and most people will rarely, if ever, be in a group where Agg. War Horn, Powerful Assault, and SPC are all active. As Alcast mentioned, the likelihood of something like this occurring lies predominantly in a trial setting.

They patched it a long time ago. Dmg-based heals get only reduced once. So your damage is reducd by 50% but the heal based on this damaged isn't reduced aswell, so it's ~70% (based on the 50% dmg) like it is stated in the tooltip.

Autolycus

Destruent wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

While I think this concept is very interesting and merits discussion, I think there should be a disclaimer attached to this stating that it is highly situational and requires multiple controlled variables to succeed. In practice, most DKs will not reach this potential under normal circumstances. While it's commendable and respectable to achieve this type of heal return, it will very rarely occur in pvp or dungeon settings. Fights in pvp are too short, plus Burning Embers faces a two-fold reduction from Battle Spirit. In dungeons, fights are way too short, and most people will rarely, if ever, be in a group where Agg. War Horn, Powerful Assault, and SPC are all active. As Alcast mentioned, the likelihood of something like this occurring lies predominantly in a trial setting.

They patched it a long time ago. Dmg-based heals get only reduced once. So your damage is reducd by 50% but the heal based on this damaged isn't reduced aswell, so it's ~70% (based on the 50% dmg) like it is stated in the tooltip.

Even so, Burning Embers isn't making people super healers in pvp and dungeons like this is implying. It's effective, but it's not unfair. It seems fine to me the way it is. I don't see DK pulling amazing stunts in Cyrodiil right now that they weren't already doing.

The change to BE, like many of the other changes to DKs in this patch, made the class more versatile and efficient. It was a much-needed change. Even without the two-fold reduction, we're still not seeing anything remotely close to this in pvp or dungeons right now (pretty much just trials). As such, there should be a disclaimer here. People already believe enough highly biased forum boasting, at the very least we can be realistic. This is not in the ballpark of most players right now.