One of the biggest issues with this game is the players

KochDerDamonen

[snip]

I do half my dungeon runs with guildmates and half with pugs, I have an experience as you describe (player performing poorly, won't listen to advice, gets ornery or quits) maybe like once every few months. If you're having such a consistently bad time, there's a better common factor--hint, think about who is in every single dungeon you are

[Edited for inflammatory comment]

Milktray

ADarklore wrote: »

There are already videos out there which show various ways to play ESO, just because you're on console doesn't mean you don't have internet access to watch YouTube videos. From my experience with another MMO (DCUO) on console, players play how THEY want, most of them (again, speaking of console players) have an attitude believing they already know what they're doing and refuse to accept anyone's advice. I used to read countless forum posts like this over there, players complaining about the 'lack of skill or training' in playing the game, but the fact remains, even when other players tried to help teach someone, they would refuse to listen and argue about how they knew what they were doing.

Also keep in mind that ESO is not a 'typical' MMO in that the majority of players are single player gamers who are Elder Scrolls fans and are not interested in playing ESO in a regular MMO way. Most of the game (solo content) doesn't revolve around learning roles and many who do group content don't do it regularly enough to care about learning their role.

Umm, I have played mmo's since UO and I play how I want, I use the skills i want, items i want .. groups who try to dictate what skills i should use and what gear i should wear i avoid. I play through at my own speed and don't rush, from when i started playing mmo's people worked around each others builds, strength's and weaknesses .. advice was given regarding things like mages attacking first with AoE's instead of letting tank etc pull

Same on console, as far as i can tell skill training, ignoring advice is rampant on all the platforms, moreso on pc due to it having most the mmo's on it

Ilterendi

Horus6 wrote: »

I know, I know the title is going to bring fourth endless rage in waves of salty tears but it's a fact.

Every instance I run people are not understanding basic mmorpg concepts, and the sad thing is that if you're good enough you don't have to follow the rules of a standard mmo but it's still good practice to do so.

Example: When adds spawn on a boss you don't ignore the adds you kill the adds and then the boss.

Example: You don't stand in the red, you interrupt the boss when possible (which should be every time) so that you don't get stomped into the ground. I mean come on even console gamers should know not to stand in the fire.

ZoS you need to give out some training videos for all the gamer's that came here so that they can understand how to play an mmo better.

Do you ask your group if anyone is new to the dungeon? Do you offer advice to the new members? Or do you sit in your high-horse and rage about how stupid someone is and berate them? I've seen this quite a few times. I'm a casual player myself. I'm not the greatest but dammit given the tactics I can take down the bosses and leave my group unscathed and zero wipes. I also let my groups know if I'm new to a dungeon or a particular boss. Communication is key. Once you berate someone you stop all helpful communication from progressing.

I was in a pug group just the other day. I was new, healer was new. We had an experienced dps and a "Master Tank". The other dps coached, the tank berated. All but the tank finished the dungeon...


[Minor edit for quote]

RatedChaotic

tinythinker wrote: »

Same thing for PvP. People *know* not to stack in giant balls and spam, yet, regularly a large percentage of players in PvP stack in giant balls and spam. Yes, the code should be able to handle it better, yes, things like removing or (better yet) inverting AoE caps might help, *but*, that doesn't change the massive contribution by players to making PvP just awful sometimes.

Kinda defeats the purpose of having massive online battles written on the back of the games box. Tho we cant help that the game cant handle what was advertized.

OP the biggest issues with this game is all the broken abilities, exploits that are still being used, lag in pvp, and that things dont get fixed or upgraded.

firstdecan

ADarklore wrote: »

Horus6 wrote: »

ZoS you need to give out some training videos for all the console gamer's that came here so that they canl understand how to play an mmo better.

There are already videos out there which show various ways to play ESO, just because you're on console doesn't mean you don't have internet access to watch YouTube videos. From my experience with another MMO (DCUO) on console, players play how THEY want, most of them (again, speaking of console players) have an attitude believing they already know what they're doing and refuse to accept anyone's advice. I used to read countless forum posts like this over there, players complaining about the 'lack of skill or training' in playing the game, but the fact remains, even when other players tried to help teach someone, they would refuse to listen and argue about how they knew what they were doing.

Also keep in mind that ESO is not a 'typical' MMO in that the majority of players are single player gamers who are Elder Scrolls fans and are not interested in playing ESO in a regular MMO way. Most of the game (solo content) doesn't revolve around learning roles and many who do group content don't do it regularly enough to care about learning their role.

I'm responding to the bolded portion.

The Elder Scrolls franchise is known for eschewing traditional roles. Even within ESO:TU (or whatever they're calling it now), the classes you can pick eschew traditional archetypes of fighter \ thief \ cleric \ wizard. They have attempted to allow players to find unique and non-traditional ways of fulfilling typical DD, Heal and tank roles. So it's really not fair to say players are not playing "the right way" when the game has attempted to thwart traditional ideas of what "the right way" should be.

Now, I will agree that some players "unique and non-traditional" way of playing a class \ role may not be effective, there are some players who will do what they want regardless of advice from others, and there are some players who will "stand in stupid" no matter what's going on. Some of that is just the way people are, but some of that is ZoS' fault specifically. The game mechanics are not straight forward and the constant "balancing" changes that ZoS performs makes it difficult for the non-addicted person with a life outside the game to keep up with the latest fotm build. If I'm only going to play 10-20 hours a week (which is a lot when you're a grown up), I don't want to spend half that time watching videos about the game. I'd like to rely on my past experiences with the game and grow from that, instead of relearning the game every month.

As far as the thread title goes, I agree. The PC beta had a really good community, it started getting divisive on release because of all the exploiters, and once the game went f2p the "community" just became obnoxious.

EZgoin76

JoshenReborn wrote: »

The console vs pc platform debate is really ridiculous. As a person who has played mmos on pc, and has consistently owned various generations of consoles, I simply consider myself a gamer. The superiority complex you gentleman feel based on your method of input into the game is astounding. Players will come in all levels of skill, you can't force someone to your skill level by aggressively explaining mechanics. Just play the game, if you don't like pugs play with friends.

@Horus6 ^^^^ This right here. It's not a matter of PC or Console players. Bad players come from everywhere. If you don't have the patience to try to help them or at least give them a chance, don't do pugs. Or you can come on the forums and QQ about it.


[Edited to remove quote]

Pallmor

Horus6 wrote: »

[snip] Maybe try a "Here are some helpful tips" tone and you might get more traction. It could be that other players in your groups are intentionally letting you get rolled. [snip]


[Edited to remove quote and reference to comment]

Reevster

Ban all players.... would that make you happy? Lol....

ZOS_CoriJ

This discussion by topic is on the edge of sensitive commentary. We would like to keep this discussion open out of respect for the more constructive comments offered, however please refrain from singling out commentators and player groups. This is a community with a varied player-base which means there will be varied opinions that we should be respectful toward everyone. We would appreciate that discussion remains objective to avoid this thread being locked.

Anzriel

Ilterendi wrote: »

Horus6 wrote: »

I know, I know the title is going to bring fourth endless rage in waves of salty tears but it's a fact.

Every instance I run people are not understanding basic mmorpg concepts, and the sad thing is that if you're good enough you don't have to follow the rules of a standard mmo but it's still good practice to do so.

Example: When adds spawn on a boss you don't ignore the adds you kill the adds and then the boss.

Example: You don't stand in the red, you interrupt the boss when possible (which should be every time) so that you don't get stomped into the ground. I mean come on even console gamers should know not to stand in the fire.

ZoS you need to give out some training videos for all the gamer's that came here so that they can understand how to play an mmo better.

Do you ask your group if anyone is new to the dungeon? Do you offer advice to the new members? Or do you sit in your high-horse and rage about how stupid someone is and berate them? I've seen this quite a few times. I'm a casual player myself. I'm not the greatest but dammit given the tactics I can take down the bosses and leave my group unscathed and zero wipes. I also let my groups know if I'm new to a dungeon or a particular boss. Communication is key. Once you berate someone you stop all helpful communication from progressing.

I was in a pug group just the other day. I was new, healer was new. We had an experienced dps and a "Master Tank". The other dps coached, the tank berated. All but the tank finished the dungeon...


[Minor edit for quote]

tbh This is a big issue with the NA/EU crowd in general. The number of people who rage at someone who is willing to listen astounds me. How do you expect people to learn if so few are willing to teach? People are so impatient and they don't recognize that they're only amplifying their own frustrations by yelling at people who don't know mechanics. People need to grow up, not just in ESO but in gaming in general. You're annoyed you need to take a couple minutes teaching, so you'd rather spend an hour wiping/searching for a new player instead? I've never understood that mentality.

tennant94

Nerf the players!

Egonieser

ADarklore wrote: »

sekou_trayvond wrote: »

I play on PC NA.

And ^this is the difference. Having played MMOs on console and PC, I can say that my experiences with other players on PC has been vastly different from those on console.

MMOs is relatively new concept for consoles, there simply aren't that many of them, and just a few years ago, even non-existant. It used to be a genre exclusive to PCs only for a very long time, which is why PC players are generally more knowledgeable in this genre.
Yes there have been attempts made for console MMOs but only very few and even less of successful ones. In 10 years time, console community might be on par if the MMOs keep coming in and more players get acquainted to them over time.
Can't really compare, one has had hundreds, if not thousands MMOs for almost 2 decades, other has only had a handful, only from few years ago - there is a ocean of a difference.

I don't mean this in a derogatory way, it's just a simple truth why it is the way it is, and why OP seems to get frustrated over it.

Bossdonut

I PAID 60 DOLLARS I'LL PLAY HOW I WANT!

Florial

Horus6 wrote: »

ZoS you need to give out some training videos for all the gamer's that came here so that they can understand how to play an mmo better.

This is a decent suggestion. Perhaps take it one step farther and have a small solo instance for each type of player--DPS, healer, tank with some basic mechanics explained. I think it would be great for players that perhaps weren't familiar with new mechanics in MMOs. Other games have it and they can be helpful.

With that said though, having patience with others can go a long way. Some of the best times were with players unfamiliar with mechanics and folks sticking around to get the dungeon done. It is a great feeling to have players thanking you for the help and patience to help them out and stick around when things have been rough. On the other hand, the zero tolerance high stress groups at times make me want to walk away from a game.

Selstad

I think that in many aspects, action oriented games like ESO and to some extend Guild wars 2, suffers from the "WoW problem", which is that you're more or less fine if you stand in fire or don't kill the adds, as long as you chuck away your damage on the boss and "top" the chart, you're doing fine.

Now allow me to elaborate a bit on that statement.

WoW is amongst the biggest MMO out there, and a lot of players that come to this game, has had some fingers into WoW at some stage. Not all, but some have. And WoW is that kind of MMO that forgives every mistake made, 10 times over. Standing in fire? No problem, the healer can blanket heal you. Not killing adds? No problem, the tank has enough mitigation to last you and the healer can easily top the rest up. Easy.

Then comes games like ESO and Guild wars 2. Games where mistakes kill you. Standing in fire kills you. Not killing adds kills you. And many MMO players that haven't grown up with the genre, simply don't know any better. They're not used to getting killed easily if you make mistakes. They're used to the game being very forgiving and allows the mistakes here and there. ESO and Guild wars 2 aren't that kind of games. The tank can't mitigate 100% of the damage, and the healer can't blanket heal to Oblivion and back without going out of mana. If mistake is made, please return to start and try again. That at least is my experience with those 2 games. And that's the reason I still return to these kind of games (and why ESO has made me subscribe again).

I don't think it's an easy fix to it, other than us "old dogs" having patience and silently break some pots in frustration, while we patiently try to explain that big red circle on ground = bad, and that the little tinsy spider at the corner has some incy tinsy friends that will creep and crawl all over you if you don't kill him and his friends. I don't see any other solution to it.

Messy1

Two ends of the spectrum here:

MMO Vet who rage quits the group because of perceived incompetence of the news players . . . . . . New players who rage quit cause they get frustrated and can't get the game mechanics or MMO concepts to work for them

Both cases illustrate a lack of patience and willingness to give and receive advice. So my advice to people who complain about how someone else plays is . . . lighten up.

negbert

I run in pugs pretty often and I enjoy it the majority of the time. I do think there needs to be a battle school tutorial that teaches the trinity. I've been in too many groups where the tank did not have a taunt or no one else in the group knew how to interrupt. There is nowhere in the game that informs you properly about taunts and there is 1 mob in the cold harbour intro you need to bash.

The best thing is to try and give advice when you can. I admit its difficult to type advice during combat or when people keep running off and pulling before you get a chance to.

RAGUNAnoOne

Horus6 wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Horus6 wrote: »

ZoS you need to give out some training videos for all the console gamer's that came here so that they canl understand how to play an mmo better.

There are already videos out there which show various ways to play ESO, just because you're on console doesn't mean you don't have internet access to watch YouTube videos. From my experience with another MMO (DCUO) on console, players play how THEY want, most of them (again, speaking of console players) have an attitude believing they already know what they're doing and refuse to accept anyone's advice. I used to read countless forum posts like this over there, players complaining about the 'lack of skill or training' in playing the game, but the fact remains, even when other players tried to help teach someone, they would refuse to listen and argue about how they knew what they were doing.

Also keep in mind that ESO is not a 'typical' MMO in that the majority of players are single player gamers who are Elder Scrolls fans and are not interested in playing ESO in a regular MMO way. Most of the game (solo content) doesn't revolve around learning roles and many who do group content don't do it regularly enough to care about learning their role.

I can agree with most of this except for the fact that virtually all end game content revolves around playing with other people which means bad players (more specifically the players you're talking about) hurt the end game content.

The ones that are just bad over time will inevitably learn I can concede to that, but these guys that come from their silly consoles and think an mmorpg (regardless of how different it is from a tab target) is the same as their single player game..

Some thing has to be done about them.

and just what dare I ask do you want done about them?

Didaco

The best happens when you cast Consuming Darkness to help you allies and they flee thinking it's harmful.

Function

This is going to sound bad but it is the truth.. ZoS supports bad players, from the start they have not given us important information needed in an MMO such as combat text. Fortunately there are addons to fill the gaps but not all players want to use or know how to use addons. Not to mention when an amazing addon (GroupDamage) that showed how you were doing compared to your group members was released they quickly killed it due to a couple of people complaining. Although combat text is finally coming for thieves guild so that is a start.

Zorrashi

Not much to do really. Unless they are willing to ask/listen to advice, and then decide of their volition to follow that advice, there is really not much you can do. However it is important to note that while you have preferences for playing the game a certain way, you should never ever impose those preferences onto others. At most all you can give is advice.

That being said, this sounds more like a you(player) problem rather than a game problem. In the end it is up to the individual player to determine how they want to play.

Dahkoht

I blame it more on going on a decade of having a joke of death penalty in mmo's.

UO , Everquest , DAOC , Lineage 1 and 2 , all at launch had actual death penalties , that , well were actual penalties , from the moment you made your character.

Sorta forced you to actually learn to use your noggin and learn mechanics and techniques otherwise , gasp , you couldn't advance in level (in fact you could lose your level).

Sadly for some reason , everything has to be given to everyone and no death penalties exist , thus anyone can hit max level and step in a high level dungeon and just repeatedly die , and die , and die , and not really care nor try.

Corpse run server with actual xps loss I would play in an instant.

corrosivechains

I do agree that player perception is a big problem when it comes to ideas of balance, whether or not content is challenging, etc.

We all tend to get a bit of tunnel vision and only see something from our perspective, as it applies to this game people thinking things like wrecking blow or shield stacking being OP when it usually tends to be a build issue. Yes, you're going to have problems killing someone who is built like a tank or a healer when all you're points have been dumped into damage with no regards to your own mitigations...then the problems become exacerbated when group PvE content get's toned down more and more to accomodate the tunnel vision.

Those shields giving you trouble? Play a DK, or throw on a shield and 1 hander and start reflecting that sorcerer's damage at him, CC him so he burns through his stamina, and he'll burn through his mana trying to maintain his shields. Wrecking Blow has a fairly long animation, and while lag can be a problem, it's avoidable if you're paying attention, and if you've built up your mitigations and health, the damage it does is piddling.

Be adaptable, don't get set in your ways then let frustration overwhelm you.

Vangy

Tbh I don't see the problem. 90% of this game can be soloed/2-manned with a Friend including all the wrothgar world bosses, 90% of pledges are an utter joke where u just need 1 or 2 competent players to carry the rest very very easily even in pug groups. The only hard content is vMSA and the 2 Ic pledges. Why would you attempt to do the 2 Ic pledges in hard mode with group finder? You're setting yourself up for rage fest and wipe fest lol. I do those with a group of friends who aren't special snowflakes who need to wear 5 heavy, spec into magicka and spam focused aim.... (I've seen this in pug before and tried to tell this person nicely that they might wanna visit tamriel foundry.. Got raged at with all the don't teach me how to play my toon QQ).

This game has nice players but by far the most defensive players I've ever seen in an mmo. Apart from that eso players are the most helpful and kind ones I've seen in any mmo as well. So I Guess there's + and - with Eso just like any other thing in life.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

Horus6 wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

The problem with this game is that large groups get the same stealth bonus as solo players and they get more AP.

If you go in solo you know that it's better to kill the adds cause they die fast and you wouldn't have the boss and adds hitting you.
But if you're in a group why care the Tank can taunt the big hitters and boss a good healer and tank will make adds ignorable.

The best skill builder is going solo for a week when you can live and kill solo being in a small group will make you seem like a God.
This is an MMO but it's geared toward solo play. Solo is too core to TES gaming it's hard to balance MMO norms & TES exceptions.

[snip]

Yes it's geared towards solo play in the beginning of the game but running end game content like veteran instances, pvp etc.. Is geared for group play.

And if you don't follow simple mmorpg rules you will fail.

You can bend them but you can't break them.


[Edited to remove bait]

I have solo Tanked vDSA took me forever but it was doable, been in groups of 3 DPS 1 healer, 3 DPS and a Tank.

Honestly this game is only technical a MMO it just has to have that solo playability for us hard core TES fans/fan boy and MMO roles for the implants to the series.
If they made the game that Nightblades couldn't heal, Dragon Knights can't DPS it would kill the game they have gone too far into the game now the only way out is though the mess they made.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

We also have to take tone into question have been on the other end of dude he does "blank" at x% health. Was doing a favor for a friend as I find PvE boring bosses just have a lot of health, op attacks, permanent CC immunity and super heals or adds.

They do the same thing over and over its no fun without variety.

Humatiel

While I am sure this remark will cause a lot of rage it's something that I was shown (by this very community ironically). I used to play with all sorts of players that caused me to beat my head against a wall, it wasn't enough to be bad but to be bad and not care. I would often be called an "elitist" and given the negative connotations that I know is associated with it I would get extremely defensive about that title, until I started to think about it.

I do put a great deal of time and effort into min/maxing and ensuring I am properly outfitted and geared as well as possible, I also ensure that I train not to get it right but to not be able to get it wrong (muscle memory). To that end it's very easy for me to project that same standard on another player because I do it to myself every time I step into that environment, the reality is though most players not only do not have that mindset but haven't got the slightest inclination to adopt it.

Once I accepted that singularly overwhelming fact my time inside PvE environments became much more enjoyable in that I discarded any sense of familiarity with players that did not share a similar mindset. To me they were not even individuals, just bodies checking a block to complete X (such as a PuG daily). Once I realized they were not then as a ripple effect I realized I didn't necessarily need to "be my best" because my worst still (in most instances) was far better than they were.

You will always find players with different mindsets than your own, trying to relate to them or worse trying to explain your rationale to them thinking they will relate to you is the definition of insanity and will cripple your gameplay as it makes you lose focus on your own goals. The fact is (just as in life) you cannot make everyone happy nor can you magically adapt to be everyone's best friend, but that does not mean being bitter is the answer. Seek out a guild focused on what you want and enjoy your time, at the end of the day nothing lasts forever anyway.

Storm_knight22

Dahkoht wrote: »

I blame it more on going on a decade of having a joke of death penalty in mmo's.

UO , Everquest , DAOC , Lineage 1 and 2 , all at launch had actual death penalties , that , well were actual penalties , from the moment you made your character.

Sorta forced you to actually learn to use your noggin and learn mechanics and techniques otherwise , gasp , you couldn't advance in level (in fact you could lose your level).

Sadly for some reason , everything has to be given to everyone and no death penalties exist , thus anyone can hit max level and step in a high level dungeon and just repeatedly die , and die , and die , and not really care nor try.

Corpse run server with actual xps loss I would play in an instant.

Oooh I like this idea! After a death you cannot gain xp for a certain amount of time! Muaha ha ha

CJohnson81

WalkingLegacy wrote: »

Gotta love the Skyrim crowd.

Considering it's an elder scrolls game, this comment is dumb. We're all the Skyrim crowd, and the Oblivion crowd, etc. Don't pretend to be upset because the Scrolls lore is bringing in new players. I agree with getting people up to speed on some mmo facts of life, but don't sit here and pretend that people aren't here for the universe in which the game takes place.

Vaoh

@Horus6

So much anti-console talk from you in this thread. So sad. I play on PS4, and only bought ESO because it was an Elder Scrolls game.

Never knew I was a singleplayer-scrub-TES-scrub-unwilling to listen to advice-scrub-cant follow mmo roles-scrub-bad at everything-scrub-typical "ruining your end game content" console gamer. Thanks for letting me know!

Some notes on this #consolescrub:
- Beat Vet Maelstrom (yeah right)
- Beat all Vet group dungeons (must be kidding...console peasants can't perform roles...)
- Two-manned many Vet dungeons (lies)
- Soloed one Vet dungeon, and am working on others (console player lies)
- I know how to play my role (wattt!!!) but it doesn't mean you HAVE to.
- Earned Magicka Det by killing players solo (ahem 1vX) instead of spamming Rapid Regen in a massive zerg. (sure you did)
- Helped many other players understand mechanics to defeat bosses (best joke ever)
- Still enjoy questing typical Elder Scrolls style (sounds about right peasant)