Fasalla's Guile Set

Sharee

Derra wrote: »

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Sharee wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

If you reduce the shield and the heal accessible to sorcs with one type of spell sorcs are just walking ap piniatas. That´s why i compared it to dodgeroll (reducing dodge dmg avoided dmg and the healing).

If a templar (who completely relies on heals instead of shields and thus has 100% of his 'damage-repairing' mechanic reduced by one type of spell) can handle it, then so would a sorc.

Derra wrote: »

Heals and shields are just about as comparableas dodgeroll and heals. It´s two different mechanics in both cases.

Battle spirit disagrees. It handles both shields and heals equally, unlike dodge rolls.

Having to spread between heals and shields is skill slot intensive. You can not play a sorc with only one of them you need atleast 3 skills - if you take into account shieldbreaker a minimum of 4. Whereas a templar can be played with only one healing spell (two if you count ritual as healing rather than purge). Sorcs main defense is the shield which got nerfed yet again in this patch and isn´t able to work on it´s own at all anymore.
Does sorc defense synergise too well with harness and healing ward - probably. Your proposal would not solve this issue though but push sorcs even further down this path.

That would be a good point if making heal debuffs apply to shields forced sorcs to slot a heal in addition to a shield. But that's not true - they are doing so regardless, even now.

Derra wrote: »

Dodgeroll can´t be treated in the same way as heals or shields as it´s unlimited in the amount of dmg avoided (and as a result much more powerful and subject to even harsher restrictions in its use). If dodge was only capable of dodging 30k dmg in pve i´m pretty sure it would be affected by the battlespirit reduction.

Of course it cannot, that's my point. It was you who originally brought dodgeroll into this discussion ("It´s like proposing healdebuffs should affect your ability to dodgeroll 100% of the dmg"). As i said earlier, "dodgeroll is about avoiding damage, not about repairing the damage done. Completely different concept, unlike heals/shields which work very similar" - and that's why they both are affected by battle spirit debuff. And if heals and shields function similar enough to be equally affected by battle spirit, they function similar enough to be equally affected by heal debuff. Because shields are basically preemptive heals.

Please reread what i´ve wrote. Dodge =/= heals =/= shields. All of them are completely different mechanics. Heals repair dmg. Shields prevent a set amount of dmg. Dodge avoids dmg. You can´t use both shields and dodge without having actual heals.

Shields and heals may be different, but they are similar enough for ZOS to both include them in battle spirit debuff. And it makes sense, because:

Derra wrote: »

Having both defenses reduced by the same offensive maneuver makes no sense. It would be the same as having dodge affected.

It makes sense, because shields are basically preemptive heals. If heals could be cast before taking damage to preemptively increase your health pool, they would basically fulfill the same function as shields do. Therefore, if heals have a debuff mechanics, shields should have one as well, for the same reason that makes shields affected by battle spirit.

Derra

Sharee wrote: »

show previous quotes

Derra wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

If you reduce the shield and the heal accessible to sorcs with one type of spell sorcs are just walking ap piniatas. That´s why i compared it to dodgeroll (reducing dodge dmg avoided dmg and the healing).

If a templar (who completely relies on heals instead of shields and thus has 100% of his 'damage-repairing' mechanic reduced by one type of spell) can handle it, then so would a sorc.

Derra wrote: »

Heals and shields are just about as comparableas dodgeroll and heals. It´s two different mechanics in both cases.

Battle spirit disagrees. It handles both shields and heals equally, unlike dodge rolls.

Having to spread between heals and shields is skill slot intensive. You can not play a sorc with only one of them you need atleast 3 skills - if you take into account shieldbreaker a minimum of 4. Whereas a templar can be played with only one healing spell (two if you count ritual as healing rather than purge). Sorcs main defense is the shield which got nerfed yet again in this patch and isn´t able to work on it´s own at all anymore.
Does sorc defense synergise too well with harness and healing ward - probably. Your proposal would not solve this issue though but push sorcs even further down this path.

That would be a good point if making heal debuffs apply to shields forced sorcs to slot a heal in addition to a shield. But that's not true - they are doing so regardless, even now.

Derra wrote: »

Dodgeroll can´t be treated in the same way as heals or shields as it´s unlimited in the amount of dmg avoided (and as a result much more powerful and subject to even harsher restrictions in its use). If dodge was only capable of dodging 30k dmg in pve i´m pretty sure it would be affected by the battlespirit reduction.

Of course it cannot, that's my point. It was you who originally brought dodgeroll into this discussion ("It´s like proposing healdebuffs should affect your ability to dodgeroll 100% of the dmg"). As i said earlier, "dodgeroll is about avoiding damage, not about repairing the damage done. Completely different concept, unlike heals/shields which work very similar" - and that's why they both are affected by battle spirit debuff. And if heals and shields function similar enough to be equally affected by battle spirit, they function similar enough to be equally affected by heal debuff. Because shields are basically preemptive heals.

Please reread what i´ve wrote. Dodge =/= heals =/= shields. All of them are completely different mechanics. Heals repair dmg. Shields prevent a set amount of dmg. Dodge avoids dmg. You can´t use both shields and dodge without having actual heals.

Shields and heals may be different, but they are similar enough for ZOS to both include them in battle spirit debuff. And it makes sense, because:

show previous quotes

Derra wrote: »

Having both defenses reduced by the same offensive maneuver makes no sense. It would be the same as having dodge affected.

It makes sense, because shields are basically preemptive heals. If heals could be cast before taking damage to preemptively increase your health pool, they would basically fulfill the same function as shields do. Therefore, if heals have a debuff mechanics, shields should have one as well, for the same reason that makes shields affected by battle spirit.

For shields to be comparable to heals they need to have resistances, a working crit mechanic in both ways, working impen, working block dmg reduction and having all sets proc on them offensive and defensive ones (aswell as the removal of mechanics bypassing them).

Atm it´s just two completely different defensive mechanics that are both mentioned seperately in the battlespirit "buff" getting reduced by 50% (just like dmg) to accomodate for inflated pve numbers

Hit me up when that´s the case then we can compare the two mechanics .

I´ll never agree to "let me press one button to debuff everything" solutions bc that´s just the usual dumbing down every mechanic of the game so i don´t have to put any thought into my build kind of talk.

Sharee

Derra wrote: »

show previous quotes

Sharee wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

If you reduce the shield and the heal accessible to sorcs with one type of spell sorcs are just walking ap piniatas. That´s why i compared it to dodgeroll (reducing dodge dmg avoided dmg and the healing).

If a templar (who completely relies on heals instead of shields and thus has 100% of his 'damage-repairing' mechanic reduced by one type of spell) can handle it, then so would a sorc.

Derra wrote: »

Heals and shields are just about as comparableas dodgeroll and heals. It´s two different mechanics in both cases.

Battle spirit disagrees. It handles both shields and heals equally, unlike dodge rolls.

Having to spread between heals and shields is skill slot intensive. You can not play a sorc with only one of them you need atleast 3 skills - if you take into account shieldbreaker a minimum of 4. Whereas a templar can be played with only one healing spell (two if you count ritual as healing rather than purge). Sorcs main defense is the shield which got nerfed yet again in this patch and isn´t able to work on it´s own at all anymore.
Does sorc defense synergise too well with harness and healing ward - probably. Your proposal would not solve this issue though but push sorcs even further down this path.

That would be a good point if making heal debuffs apply to shields forced sorcs to slot a heal in addition to a shield. But that's not true - they are doing so regardless, even now.

Derra wrote: »

Dodgeroll can´t be treated in the same way as heals or shields as it´s unlimited in the amount of dmg avoided (and as a result much more powerful and subject to even harsher restrictions in its use). If dodge was only capable of dodging 30k dmg in pve i´m pretty sure it would be affected by the battlespirit reduction.

Of course it cannot, that's my point. It was you who originally brought dodgeroll into this discussion ("It´s like proposing healdebuffs should affect your ability to dodgeroll 100% of the dmg"). As i said earlier, "dodgeroll is about avoiding damage, not about repairing the damage done. Completely different concept, unlike heals/shields which work very similar" - and that's why they both are affected by battle spirit debuff. And if heals and shields function similar enough to be equally affected by battle spirit, they function similar enough to be equally affected by heal debuff. Because shields are basically preemptive heals.

Please reread what i´ve wrote. Dodge =/= heals =/= shields. All of them are completely different mechanics. Heals repair dmg. Shields prevent a set amount of dmg. Dodge avoids dmg. You can´t use both shields and dodge without having actual heals.

Shields and heals may be different, but they are similar enough for ZOS to both include them in battle spirit debuff. And it makes sense, because:

Derra wrote: »

Having both defenses reduced by the same offensive maneuver makes no sense. It would be the same as having dodge affected.

It makes sense, because shields are basically preemptive heals. If heals could be cast before taking damage to preemptively increase your health pool, they would basically fulfill the same function as shields do. Therefore, if heals have a debuff mechanics, shields should have one as well, for the same reason that makes shields affected by battle spirit.

For shields to be comparable to heals they need to have resistances, a working crit mechanic in both ways, working impen, working block dmg reduction and having all sets proc on them offensive and defensive ones (aswell as the removal of mechanics bypassing them).

No. What you listed would make shields next to identical to heals. Comparable, they already are. Heals counteract incoming damage reactively, shields counteract incoming damage preemptively. But they both counteract damage, that is their major function, thats why they both got included in battlespirit debuff, and that is why if one of them can be debuffed, the other should be debuffable as well.

Derra

Sharee wrote: »

show previous quotes

Derra wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

If you reduce the shield and the heal accessible to sorcs with one type of spell sorcs are just walking ap piniatas. That´s why i compared it to dodgeroll (reducing dodge dmg avoided dmg and the healing).

If a templar (who completely relies on heals instead of shields and thus has 100% of his 'damage-repairing' mechanic reduced by one type of spell) can handle it, then so would a sorc.

Derra wrote: »

Heals and shields are just about as comparableas dodgeroll and heals. It´s two different mechanics in both cases.

Battle spirit disagrees. It handles both shields and heals equally, unlike dodge rolls.

Having to spread between heals and shields is skill slot intensive. You can not play a sorc with only one of them you need atleast 3 skills - if you take into account shieldbreaker a minimum of 4. Whereas a templar can be played with only one healing spell (two if you count ritual as healing rather than purge). Sorcs main defense is the shield which got nerfed yet again in this patch and isn´t able to work on it´s own at all anymore.
Does sorc defense synergise too well with harness and healing ward - probably. Your proposal would not solve this issue though but push sorcs even further down this path.

That would be a good point if making heal debuffs apply to shields forced sorcs to slot a heal in addition to a shield. But that's not true - they are doing so regardless, even now.

Derra wrote: »

Dodgeroll can´t be treated in the same way as heals or shields as it´s unlimited in the amount of dmg avoided (and as a result much more powerful and subject to even harsher restrictions in its use). If dodge was only capable of dodging 30k dmg in pve i´m pretty sure it would be affected by the battlespirit reduction.

Of course it cannot, that's my point. It was you who originally brought dodgeroll into this discussion ("It´s like proposing healdebuffs should affect your ability to dodgeroll 100% of the dmg"). As i said earlier, "dodgeroll is about avoiding damage, not about repairing the damage done. Completely different concept, unlike heals/shields which work very similar" - and that's why they both are affected by battle spirit debuff. And if heals and shields function similar enough to be equally affected by battle spirit, they function similar enough to be equally affected by heal debuff. Because shields are basically preemptive heals.

Please reread what i´ve wrote. Dodge =/= heals =/= shields. All of them are completely different mechanics. Heals repair dmg. Shields prevent a set amount of dmg. Dodge avoids dmg. You can´t use both shields and dodge without having actual heals.

Shields and heals may be different, but they are similar enough for ZOS to both include them in battle spirit debuff. And it makes sense, because:

Derra wrote: »

Having both defenses reduced by the same offensive maneuver makes no sense. It would be the same as having dodge affected.

It makes sense, because shields are basically preemptive heals. If heals could be cast before taking damage to preemptively increase your health pool, they would basically fulfill the same function as shields do. Therefore, if heals have a debuff mechanics, shields should have one as well, for the same reason that makes shields affected by battle spirit.

For shields to be comparable to heals they need to have resistances, a working crit mechanic in both ways, working impen, working block dmg reduction and having all sets proc on them offensive and defensive ones (aswell as the removal of mechanics bypassing them).

No. What you listed would make shields next to identical to heals. Comparable, they already are. Heals counteract incoming damage reactively, shields counteract incoming damage preemptively. But they both counteract damage, that is their major function, thats why they both got included in battlespirit debuff, and that is why if one of them can be debuffed, the other should be debuffable as well.

Yeah it´s their major function - but they do this in totally different not comparable ways that´s why they should not have the same drawbacks or debuffs - it would dumb down the game.

Sharee

Derra wrote: »

show previous quotes

Sharee wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

If you reduce the shield and the heal accessible to sorcs with one type of spell sorcs are just walking ap piniatas. That´s why i compared it to dodgeroll (reducing dodge dmg avoided dmg and the healing).

If a templar (who completely relies on heals instead of shields and thus has 100% of his 'damage-repairing' mechanic reduced by one type of spell) can handle it, then so would a sorc.

Derra wrote: »

Heals and shields are just about as comparableas dodgeroll and heals. It´s two different mechanics in both cases.

Battle spirit disagrees. It handles both shields and heals equally, unlike dodge rolls.

Having to spread between heals and shields is skill slot intensive. You can not play a sorc with only one of them you need atleast 3 skills - if you take into account shieldbreaker a minimum of 4. Whereas a templar can be played with only one healing spell (two if you count ritual as healing rather than purge). Sorcs main defense is the shield which got nerfed yet again in this patch and isn´t able to work on it´s own at all anymore.
Does sorc defense synergise too well with harness and healing ward - probably. Your proposal would not solve this issue though but push sorcs even further down this path.

That would be a good point if making heal debuffs apply to shields forced sorcs to slot a heal in addition to a shield. But that's not true - they are doing so regardless, even now.

Derra wrote: »

Dodgeroll can´t be treated in the same way as heals or shields as it´s unlimited in the amount of dmg avoided (and as a result much more powerful and subject to even harsher restrictions in its use). If dodge was only capable of dodging 30k dmg in pve i´m pretty sure it would be affected by the battlespirit reduction.

Of course it cannot, that's my point. It was you who originally brought dodgeroll into this discussion ("It´s like proposing healdebuffs should affect your ability to dodgeroll 100% of the dmg"). As i said earlier, "dodgeroll is about avoiding damage, not about repairing the damage done. Completely different concept, unlike heals/shields which work very similar" - and that's why they both are affected by battle spirit debuff. And if heals and shields function similar enough to be equally affected by battle spirit, they function similar enough to be equally affected by heal debuff. Because shields are basically preemptive heals.

Please reread what i´ve wrote. Dodge =/= heals =/= shields. All of them are completely different mechanics. Heals repair dmg. Shields prevent a set amount of dmg. Dodge avoids dmg. You can´t use both shields and dodge without having actual heals.

Shields and heals may be different, but they are similar enough for ZOS to both include them in battle spirit debuff. And it makes sense, because:

Derra wrote: »

Having both defenses reduced by the same offensive maneuver makes no sense. It would be the same as having dodge affected.

It makes sense, because shields are basically preemptive heals. If heals could be cast before taking damage to preemptively increase your health pool, they would basically fulfill the same function as shields do. Therefore, if heals have a debuff mechanics, shields should have one as well, for the same reason that makes shields affected by battle spirit.

For shields to be comparable to heals they need to have resistances, a working crit mechanic in both ways, working impen, working block dmg reduction and having all sets proc on them offensive and defensive ones (aswell as the removal of mechanics bypassing them).

No. What you listed would make shields next to identical to heals. Comparable, they already are. Heals counteract incoming damage reactively, shields counteract incoming damage preemptively. But they both counteract damage, that is their major function, thats why they both got included in battlespirit debuff, and that is why if one of them can be debuffed, the other should be debuffable as well.

Yeah it´s their major function - but they do this in totally different not comparable ways that´s why they should not have the same drawbacks or debuffs - it would dumb down the game.

The final result is the same - it keeps the player healthy. In what way it is achieveved, whether by healing damage that has been already done, or by preventing it from happening in the firstplace - thats just a technicality. In the end, both abilities serve the same purpose, therefore it makes no sense for one of them being debuffable and the other not. Just like it did not make sense for one of them being affected by battle spirit, and the other not.

Bashev

Sharee wrote: »

show previous quotes

Derra wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

If you reduce the shield and the heal accessible to sorcs with one type of spell sorcs are just walking ap piniatas. That´s why i compared it to dodgeroll (reducing dodge dmg avoided dmg and the healing).

If a templar (who completely relies on heals instead of shields and thus has 100% of his 'damage-repairing' mechanic reduced by one type of spell) can handle it, then so would a sorc.

Derra wrote: »

Heals and shields are just about as comparableas dodgeroll and heals. It´s two different mechanics in both cases.

Battle spirit disagrees. It handles both shields and heals equally, unlike dodge rolls.

Having to spread between heals and shields is skill slot intensive. You can not play a sorc with only one of them you need atleast 3 skills - if you take into account shieldbreaker a minimum of 4. Whereas a templar can be played with only one healing spell (two if you count ritual as healing rather than purge). Sorcs main defense is the shield which got nerfed yet again in this patch and isn´t able to work on it´s own at all anymore.
Does sorc defense synergise too well with harness and healing ward - probably. Your proposal would not solve this issue though but push sorcs even further down this path.

That would be a good point if making heal debuffs apply to shields forced sorcs to slot a heal in addition to a shield. But that's not true - they are doing so regardless, even now.

Derra wrote: »

Dodgeroll can´t be treated in the same way as heals or shields as it´s unlimited in the amount of dmg avoided (and as a result much more powerful and subject to even harsher restrictions in its use). If dodge was only capable of dodging 30k dmg in pve i´m pretty sure it would be affected by the battlespirit reduction.

Of course it cannot, that's my point. It was you who originally brought dodgeroll into this discussion ("It´s like proposing healdebuffs should affect your ability to dodgeroll 100% of the dmg"). As i said earlier, "dodgeroll is about avoiding damage, not about repairing the damage done. Completely different concept, unlike heals/shields which work very similar" - and that's why they both are affected by battle spirit debuff. And if heals and shields function similar enough to be equally affected by battle spirit, they function similar enough to be equally affected by heal debuff. Because shields are basically preemptive heals.

Please reread what i´ve wrote. Dodge =/= heals =/= shields. All of them are completely different mechanics. Heals repair dmg. Shields prevent a set amount of dmg. Dodge avoids dmg. You can´t use both shields and dodge without having actual heals.

Shields and heals may be different, but they are similar enough for ZOS to both include them in battle spirit debuff. And it makes sense, because:

Derra wrote: »

Having both defenses reduced by the same offensive maneuver makes no sense. It would be the same as having dodge affected.

It makes sense, because shields are basically preemptive heals. If heals could be cast before taking damage to preemptively increase your health pool, they would basically fulfill the same function as shields do. Therefore, if heals have a debuff mechanics, shields should have one as well, for the same reason that makes shields affected by battle spirit.

For shields to be comparable to heals they need to have resistances, a working crit mechanic in both ways, working impen, working block dmg reduction and having all sets proc on them offensive and defensive ones (aswell as the removal of mechanics bypassing them).

No. What you listed would make shields next to identical to heals. Comparable, they already are. Heals counteract incoming damage reactively, shields counteract incoming damage preemptively. But they both counteract damage, that is their major function, thats why they both got included in battlespirit debuff, and that is why if one of them can be debuffed, the other should be debuffable as well.

Yeah it´s their major function - but they do this in totally different not comparable ways that´s why they should not have the same drawbacks or debuffs - it would dumb down the game.

The final result is the same - it keeps the player healthy. In what way it is achieveved, whether by healing damage that has been already done, or by preventing it from happening in the firstplace - thats just a technicality. In the end, both abilities serve the same purpose, therefore it makes no sense for one of them being debuffable and the other not. Just like it did not make sense for one of them being affected by battle spirit, and the other not.

That was exactly my point. And that is why this set will be OP for Sorcs.

Derra

Sharee wrote: »

show previous quotes

Derra wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

If you reduce the shield and the heal accessible to sorcs with one type of spell sorcs are just walking ap piniatas. That´s why i compared it to dodgeroll (reducing dodge dmg avoided dmg and the healing).

If a templar (who completely relies on heals instead of shields and thus has 100% of his 'damage-repairing' mechanic reduced by one type of spell) can handle it, then so would a sorc.

Derra wrote: »

Heals and shields are just about as comparableas dodgeroll and heals. It´s two different mechanics in both cases.

Battle spirit disagrees. It handles both shields and heals equally, unlike dodge rolls.

Having to spread between heals and shields is skill slot intensive. You can not play a sorc with only one of them you need atleast 3 skills - if you take into account shieldbreaker a minimum of 4. Whereas a templar can be played with only one healing spell (two if you count ritual as healing rather than purge). Sorcs main defense is the shield which got nerfed yet again in this patch and isn´t able to work on it´s own at all anymore.
Does sorc defense synergise too well with harness and healing ward - probably. Your proposal would not solve this issue though but push sorcs even further down this path.

That would be a good point if making heal debuffs apply to shields forced sorcs to slot a heal in addition to a shield. But that's not true - they are doing so regardless, even now.

Derra wrote: »

Dodgeroll can´t be treated in the same way as heals or shields as it´s unlimited in the amount of dmg avoided (and as a result much more powerful and subject to even harsher restrictions in its use). If dodge was only capable of dodging 30k dmg in pve i´m pretty sure it would be affected by the battlespirit reduction.

Of course it cannot, that's my point. It was you who originally brought dodgeroll into this discussion ("It´s like proposing healdebuffs should affect your ability to dodgeroll 100% of the dmg"). As i said earlier, "dodgeroll is about avoiding damage, not about repairing the damage done. Completely different concept, unlike heals/shields which work very similar" - and that's why they both are affected by battle spirit debuff. And if heals and shields function similar enough to be equally affected by battle spirit, they function similar enough to be equally affected by heal debuff. Because shields are basically preemptive heals.

Please reread what i´ve wrote. Dodge =/= heals =/= shields. All of them are completely different mechanics. Heals repair dmg. Shields prevent a set amount of dmg. Dodge avoids dmg. You can´t use both shields and dodge without having actual heals.

Shields and heals may be different, but they are similar enough for ZOS to both include them in battle spirit debuff. And it makes sense, because:

Derra wrote: »

Having both defenses reduced by the same offensive maneuver makes no sense. It would be the same as having dodge affected.

It makes sense, because shields are basically preemptive heals. If heals could be cast before taking damage to preemptively increase your health pool, they would basically fulfill the same function as shields do. Therefore, if heals have a debuff mechanics, shields should have one as well, for the same reason that makes shields affected by battle spirit.

For shields to be comparable to heals they need to have resistances, a working crit mechanic in both ways, working impen, working block dmg reduction and having all sets proc on them offensive and defensive ones (aswell as the removal of mechanics bypassing them).

No. What you listed would make shields next to identical to heals. Comparable, they already are. Heals counteract incoming damage reactively, shields counteract incoming damage preemptively. But they both counteract damage, that is their major function, thats why they both got included in battlespirit debuff, and that is why if one of them can be debuffed, the other should be debuffable as well.

Yeah it´s their major function - but they do this in totally different not comparable ways that´s why they should not have the same drawbacks or debuffs - it would dumb down the game.

The final result is the same - it keeps the player healthy. In what way it is achieveved, whether by healing damage that has been already done, or by preventing it from happening in the firstplace - thats just a technicality. In the end, both abilities serve the same purpose, therefore it makes no sense for one of them being debuffable and the other not. Just like it did not make sense for one of them being affected by battle spirit, and the other not.

It´s not - any competent player (especially stamina ones - breaking harness + hardened is a tiiiiny bit stupid) will break shields and dmg your hp. That´s always going to happen unless you´re fighting a potatoe. A shield will not fill your healthpool back up - which is kind of important even when using shields .

Bashev wrote: »

show previous quotes

Sharee wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

If you reduce the shield and the heal accessible to sorcs with one type of spell sorcs are just walking ap piniatas. That´s why i compared it to dodgeroll (reducing dodge dmg avoided dmg and the healing).

If a templar (who completely relies on heals instead of shields and thus has 100% of his 'damage-repairing' mechanic reduced by one type of spell) can handle it, then so would a sorc.

Derra wrote: »

Heals and shields are just about as comparableas dodgeroll and heals. It´s two different mechanics in both cases.

Battle spirit disagrees. It handles both shields and heals equally, unlike dodge rolls.

Having to spread between heals and shields is skill slot intensive. You can not play a sorc with only one of them you need atleast 3 skills - if you take into account shieldbreaker a minimum of 4. Whereas a templar can be played with only one healing spell (two if you count ritual as healing rather than purge). Sorcs main defense is the shield which got nerfed yet again in this patch and isn´t able to work on it´s own at all anymore.
Does sorc defense synergise too well with harness and healing ward - probably. Your proposal would not solve this issue though but push sorcs even further down this path.

That would be a good point if making heal debuffs apply to shields forced sorcs to slot a heal in addition to a shield. But that's not true - they are doing so regardless, even now.

Derra wrote: »

Dodgeroll can´t be treated in the same way as heals or shields as it´s unlimited in the amount of dmg avoided (and as a result much more powerful and subject to even harsher restrictions in its use). If dodge was only capable of dodging 30k dmg in pve i´m pretty sure it would be affected by the battlespirit reduction.

Of course it cannot, that's my point. It was you who originally brought dodgeroll into this discussion ("It´s like proposing healdebuffs should affect your ability to dodgeroll 100% of the dmg"). As i said earlier, "dodgeroll is about avoiding damage, not about repairing the damage done. Completely different concept, unlike heals/shields which work very similar" - and that's why they both are affected by battle spirit debuff. And if heals and shields function similar enough to be equally affected by battle spirit, they function similar enough to be equally affected by heal debuff. Because shields are basically preemptive heals.

Please reread what i´ve wrote. Dodge =/= heals =/= shields. All of them are completely different mechanics. Heals repair dmg. Shields prevent a set amount of dmg. Dodge avoids dmg. You can´t use both shields and dodge without having actual heals.

Shields and heals may be different, but they are similar enough for ZOS to both include them in battle spirit debuff. And it makes sense, because:

Derra wrote: »

Having both defenses reduced by the same offensive maneuver makes no sense. It would be the same as having dodge affected.

It makes sense, because shields are basically preemptive heals. If heals could be cast before taking damage to preemptively increase your health pool, they would basically fulfill the same function as shields do. Therefore, if heals have a debuff mechanics, shields should have one as well, for the same reason that makes shields affected by battle spirit.

For shields to be comparable to heals they need to have resistances, a working crit mechanic in both ways, working impen, working block dmg reduction and having all sets proc on them offensive and defensive ones (aswell as the removal of mechanics bypassing them).

No. What you listed would make shields next to identical to heals. Comparable, they already are. Heals counteract incoming damage reactively, shields counteract incoming damage preemptively. But they both counteract damage, that is their major function, thats why they both got included in battlespirit debuff, and that is why if one of them can be debuffed, the other should be debuffable as well.

Yeah it´s their major function - but they do this in totally different not comparable ways that´s why they should not have the same drawbacks or debuffs - it would dumb down the game.

The final result is the same - it keeps the player healthy. In what way it is achieveved, whether by healing damage that has been already done, or by preventing it from happening in the firstplace - thats just a technicality. In the end, both abilities serve the same purpose, therefore it makes no sense for one of them being debuffable and the other not. Just like it did not make sense for one of them being affected by battle spirit, and the other not.

That was exactly my point. And that is why this set will be OP for Sorcs.

Honestly don´t think it will. You have no means to access any other healdebuffs apart from disease enchants on a magica sorc.
What makes this set op currently is the effect stacking with every other healdebuff in the game (which should be changed imho)

The set comes at the cost of ~1400 magica and ~840 spelldmg for the build i´m using(before buffs) aswells as 2% of all stats. Think about that for a while. That´s a huge tradeoff.
1v1 it might be overperforming - in any other situation i don´t think it will. Game is not balanced for 1v1 and shouldn´t be imho.

Xeven

This argument is old, stale, and one sided.

I see DKs, Templars, and NBs that are far far far more tanky and resilient than any sorc on the regular. Sorcs are some of my easiest kills. Learn to burst.

Vigor, Rally, Dodgeroll, Block, Impen and wait for it, armor resistance provide far more defensive capabilities than our ONLY option, Hardened Ward.

Sharee

Derra wrote: »

It´s not - any competent player (especially stamina ones - breaking harness + hardened is a tiiiiny bit stupid) will break shields and dmg your hp. That´s always going to happen unless you´re fighting a potatoe. A shield will not fill your healthpool back up.

The fact that your shields can go down and you may have to use a heal to fill your HP back up doesn't mean shields don't keep you healthy. They still fulfill the same basic function as heals do (only preemptively instead of reactively) and therefore they should be debuffable just like heals are.

Derra

Sharee wrote: »

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Derra wrote: »

It´s not - any competent player (especially stamina ones - breaking harness + hardened is a tiiiiny bit stupid) will break shields and dmg your hp. That´s always going to happen unless you´re fighting a potatoe. A shield will not fill your healthpool back up.

The fact that your shields can go down and you may have to use a heal to fill your HP back up doesn't mean shields don't keep you healthy. They still fulfill the same basic function as heals do (only preemptively instead of reactively) and therefore they should be debuffable just like heals are.

They should be and they are, they´re even completely penetrable. Just not with healdebuffs. I rest my case.

hrothbern

Xeven wrote: »

This argument is old, stale, and one sided.

I see DKs, Templars, and NBs that are far far far more tanky and resilient than any sorc on the regular. Sorcs are some of my easiest kills. Learn to burst.

Vigor, Rally, Dodgeroll, Block, Impen and wait for it, armor resistance provide far more defensive capabilities than our ONLY option, Hardened Ward.

THIS !

Also:
With a normal Resistance build, you benefit from heals of others at random or focused to help you.
As Sorc with Hardened Ward you are struggling alone.

Sharee

Derra wrote: »

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Sharee wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

It´s not - any competent player (especially stamina ones - breaking harness + hardened is a tiiiiny bit stupid) will break shields and dmg your hp. That´s always going to happen unless you´re fighting a potatoe. A shield will not fill your healthpool back up.

The fact that your shields can go down and you may have to use a heal to fill your HP back up doesn't mean shields don't keep you healthy. They still fulfill the same basic function as heals do (only preemptively instead of reactively) and therefore they should be debuffable just like heals are.

They should be and they are, they´re even completely penetrable. Just not with healdebuffs. I rest my case.

There is no mechanic that would affect shields in the same manner/severity as heals are affected by heal debuffs.

Whatever other weaknesses shielding has compared to healing is more than generously compensated by unique strengths. Uncrittable, able to be cast in advance, immunity to execute moves, blocking mechanics that trigger on taking damage...

... and if this set goes live, making a mockery of any fairness in a fight between a character who relies on heals and one that relies on shields.

Xeven

Sharee wrote: »

They still fulfill the same basic function as heals do (only preemptively instead of reactively) and therefore they should be debuffable just like heals are.

They are already debuffed. They have zero resistance. You hit for full force damage every single time, and you now also have the CP option to buff that damage a further 25%.

When you tank with health, much of your mitigation comes passively through resistance and impen. You dont have to spend any global cool downs or resources, you dont even have to think about it. It's just free mitigation.

Derra

Sharee wrote: »

show previous quotes

Derra wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

It´s not - any competent player (especially stamina ones - breaking harness + hardened is a tiiiiny bit stupid) will break shields and dmg your hp. That´s always going to happen unless you´re fighting a potatoe. A shield will not fill your healthpool back up.

The fact that your shields can go down and you may have to use a heal to fill your HP back up doesn't mean shields don't keep you healthy. They still fulfill the same basic function as heals do (only preemptively instead of reactively) and therefore they should be debuffable just like heals are.

They should be and they are, they´re even completely penetrable. Just not with healdebuffs. I rest my case.

There is no mechanic that would affect shields in the same manner/severity as heals are affected by heal debuffs.

Whatever other weaknesses shielding has compared to healing is more than generously compensated by unique strengths. Uncrittable, able to be cast in advance, immunity to execute moves, blocking mechanics that trigger on taking damage...

See that´s why we disagree. The value of the things you list does barely offset it´s disadvantages imo.

Shields are not immune to all execute dmg - only to some (an inconsistency that should not be in the game). Also on the pts there are no longer mechanics left that are blocked by shields apart from the winterborn set procc.

Some of the advantages you list are simply bugs/inconsistencys in the game design that should not exist. If you happen to balance things on a foundation that is questionable at best you get into deep sh-trouble once you fix underlying problems.

The only advantage shields truely have compared to a heal is being precasted making it harder to get ganked. That´s a one timer though.

Sharee

Xeven wrote: »

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Sharee wrote: »

They still fulfill the same basic function as heals do (only preemptively instead of reactively) and therefore they should be debuffable just like heals are.

They are already debuffed. They have zero resistance. You hit for full force damage every single time, and you now also have the CP option to buff that damage a further 25%.

When you tank with health, much of your mitigation comes passively through resistance and impen. You dont have to spend any global cool downs, you dont even have to think about it. It's just free mitigation.

The no-mitigation card is already adequately countered by the uncrittable card, unexecutable card, etc. etc.

Xeven

Sharee wrote: »

show previous quotes

Xeven wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

They still fulfill the same basic function as heals do (only preemptively instead of reactively) and therefore they should be debuffable just like heals are.

They are already debuffed. They have zero resistance. You hit for full force damage every single time, and you now also have the CP option to buff that damage a further 25%.

When you tank with health, much of your mitigation comes passively through resistance and impen. You dont have to spend any global cool downs, you dont even have to think about it. It's just free mitigation.

The no-mitigation card is already adequately countered by the uncrittable card, unexecutable card, etc. etc.

Bullsh*t. I'll take critable shields with full armor/impen resistance any day of the week. Also, you mitigate crits through resistances, and you have the option to further mitigate them with CP/Impen. Furthermore, shields are executable if health is in range.

Irrelevant. One sided. Delusional.

Sharee

Derra wrote: »

show previous quotes

Sharee wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

It´s not - any competent player (especially stamina ones - breaking harness + hardened is a tiiiiny bit stupid) will break shields and dmg your hp. That´s always going to happen unless you´re fighting a potatoe. A shield will not fill your healthpool back up.

The fact that your shields can go down and you may have to use a heal to fill your HP back up doesn't mean shields don't keep you healthy. They still fulfill the same basic function as heals do (only preemptively instead of reactively) and therefore they should be debuffable just like heals are.

They should be and they are, they´re even completely penetrable. Just not with healdebuffs. I rest my case.

There is no mechanic that would affect shields in the same manner/severity as heals are affected by heal debuffs.

Whatever other weaknesses shielding has compared to healing is more than generously compensated by unique strengths. Uncrittable, able to be cast in advance, immunity to execute moves, blocking mechanics that trigger on taking damage...

See that´s why we disagree. The value of the things you list does barely offset it´s disadvantages imo.

Shields are not immune to all execute dmg - only to some (an inconsistency that should not be in the game). Also on the pts there are no longer mechanics left that are blocked by shields apart from the winterborn set procc.

Siphon proc(from the resto staff line), for example, only procs when target takes hitpoint damage. And as for execute immunity - losing 50+% of your shield does not open you to an execute move, unlike losing 50+% of your health.

Derra

Sharee wrote: »

show previous quotes

Derra wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

It´s not - any competent player (especially stamina ones - breaking harness + hardened is a tiiiiny bit stupid) will break shields and dmg your hp. That´s always going to happen unless you´re fighting a potatoe. A shield will not fill your healthpool back up.

The fact that your shields can go down and you may have to use a heal to fill your HP back up doesn't mean shields don't keep you healthy. They still fulfill the same basic function as heals do (only preemptively instead of reactively) and therefore they should be debuffable just like heals are.

They should be and they are, they´re even completely penetrable. Just not with healdebuffs. I rest my case.

There is no mechanic that would affect shields in the same manner/severity as heals are affected by heal debuffs.

Whatever other weaknesses shielding has compared to healing is more than generously compensated by unique strengths. Uncrittable, able to be cast in advance, immunity to execute moves, blocking mechanics that trigger on taking damage...

See that´s why we disagree. The value of the things you list does barely offset it´s disadvantages imo.

Shields are not immune to all execute dmg - only to some (an inconsistency that should not be in the game). Also on the pts there are no longer mechanics left that are blocked by shields apart from the winterborn set procc.

Siphon proc(from the resto staff line), for example, only procs when target takes hitpoint damage. And as for execute immunity - losing 50+% of your shield does not open you to an execute move, unlike losing 50+% of your health.

Should not be the case (and used to work differently way back in the day) - i think it´s the same problem with elemental drain.

For executes you can create the opposite scenario - cast a shield at 10% health and someone will be able to spam you for full execute dmg as long as you´re still low hp - a heal will instantly bring you out of execute range.

NativeJoe

I say Leave it. You guys do realize we're getting bigger numbers from healing this time around right? my twilight is healing 3 targets for 22k+ ....

Xeven

This whole argument is absurd.

Shield Breaker gives you max stam, recovery and weapon damage for a 2, 3, and 4 piece, all of which you want anyway.

This set gives you max health, max health, and 4% healing taken, none of which a magicka sorc wants or needs. Oh no! The big bad sorcs are coming to get you!

If a magicka sorc puts this on to smash your face in, you probably deserve it.

Worakls

Checked on the PTS server, cant find any jewelry pieces of the set. From the other new sets I can.

Bashev

Worakls wrote: »

Checked on the PTS server, cant find any jewelry pieces of the set. From the other new sets I can.

Rings come from mails, necklace - I believe you can buy it from the merchant.

Azarath_tiberius

Bashev wrote: »

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Worakls wrote: »

Checked on the PTS server, cant find any jewelry pieces of the set. From the other new sets I can.

Rings come from mails, necklace - I believe you can buy it from the merchant.

Nah Bash, all items can be acquired via mails. The merchant sells 2 random PvP set pieces once per week. The drop chance of jewellery though is... horrendous

MrTarkanian48

Has anyone tested how this stacks?

1)Do CP into Befoul increase the sets effect?

2) Does the sets effect stack with Major Defile?

If either of these are true it would be possible to reduce an opponents healing to 0%.

Bashev

MrTarkanian48 wrote: »

Has anyone tested how this stacks?

1)Do CP into Befoul increase the sets effect?

2) Does the sets effect stack with Major Defile?

If either of these are true it would be possible to reduce an opponents healing to 0%.

1) max that you can reach with 100 points is 66%
2) It stuck multiplicatively
It cannot be reduced to 0% because it is multiplicative but it can be reduced to 90%+

Junkogen

Does this set exist with Arcane or Robust jewelry traits? All I ever see are Healthy ones.