Impentrable Armor Trait needs to be adjusted

RinaldoGandolphi

@Wrobel

http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/pts-2-1-2-sorcerer-arithmagic/

An enemies’ critical modifier can be reduced by equipping gear with the Impenetrable trait or by spending points in the Resilient champion point sign. Every percent in Resilient decreases the enemies’ critical modifier by the same amount and every 250 points of critical resistance reduces an enemies’ critical modifier by 3.5%

Example

If you are PvP’ing against an enemy with a critical modifier of 0.5 and you have 500 critical resistance (2 legendary equipment) and 48 points (15%) in Resilient, then

Enemy Critical Modifier = 0.5 - 0.15 - 0.07 = 0.28

Due to the changes in the Champion system, primarily Hardy giving Physical Resistance, Impenetrable is now simply too good. Stamina builds will be gimped in the damage department because of this. I say this as someone who runs mostly magic builds. The damage reduction from Hardy + 7 Legendary Impen + tons of points in resistant will be ridiculously good in PVP.

Infact hardly anyone will wear anything else because you pretty much give up hardly anything to reap these great benefits. This is every bit as broken as Nirnhoned Armor was a few patches ago.

All the Damage Increasing CP are blue
All the Regen and Cost Reduction CP are Green
All the Damage Reduction and Crit Reduction are Red

Outside of Sorc's (Who will invest in Bastion till its maxed) EVERYONE will simply stack their Red points into Hardy and Resistant thus "nearly" negating crit damage all together. Those still here from the 1.5 days remember how OP Impenetrable was nearly everyone ran it and crit builds were not viable in Cyrodiil for over a year...do we really want to go back to that?

Simply put, Outside of Sorcs, everyone will stack Hardy and Resistent because they are the best places to stack red points. As for Gear, you lose very very little running Impen in return for a huge reduction in damage...this is every bit as broken as Nirnhoined was.

I would like to suggest that you "Scale back" Impenetrable and Resistant to some degree. Most PVE folks don't run Impen or put points into Resistant, but in PVP this will be the meta for the huge amounts of damage reductions it gives. If this isn't addressed, i hope 4k Weapin damage builds are ready to land a crit for 800 damage....because its going to effect them more then magic builds but it will still effect everyone.

Damage Sheilds now have a set and a CP star dedicated to getting past them, and i think thats fair...but edging back towards 1.5 when it comes to Impentrable + the addition of resistant is a bad idea...you going to get a lot of complaints about this if you don't scale either Impen trait back or reduce the % Resistant gives at max points..one or the other.

r.jan_emailb16_ESO

I do not agree, why should a damage shield be the only way to avoid a high amount of critical damage? Also "4k Weapin damage builds are ready to land a crit for 800 damage" is complete ***, you can't reduce it below the non-crit damage value.

Cathexis

Umm did you know you can stack the crit modifier to surpass crit redux by more than its initial .5x extra damage multiplier value? Crit can go beyond X2 damage.

Crit redux actually needs a buff to be able to keep up.

I agree with you though that the physical damage redux cp is too much and that stam damage will be severely gimped.

code65536

Anyone running impen is also sacrificing divines/infused. It's fine as it is.

hammayolettuce

Nothing needs to be changed about impen .. Maybe later down the road with more CP.

Manoekin

Impen is not even worth 1/10 of what it was in 1.5. Balanced.

Derra

It´s fine as is. Meaningful choice between divine/infused and impen. That´s how all traits should work.

Niaver

How about making those who wear Heavy Armor tanky, and those who not wear HA - squishy?

Forestd16b14_ESO

Oh look some one asking for stamina base builds and tanks to be buffed up and mostly all the magicka users saying "L2P".

Pepper8Jack

I do think that this needs to be watched, but maybe not necessarily acted on immediately.

Impen is one of the few traits valuable enough to compete with infused/divines, and even then only in PvP. I'd rather not see it nerfed into irrelevance like the rest of the armor traits.

That said, there does need to be some serious testing to see how much damage reduction you can really achieve, and how much damage/resources you need to sacrifice to get there, before we can really evaluate the balance of this change.

GreenSoup2HoT

-Nightblade's have 1.6x crit modifier.
-Shadow Mundus 12% without Divine's, 18% with divine's.
-25% More Crit damage from CP.
-Total = 1.97x or 2.03x crit modifier max as a Nightblade.

-Impen 7 trait's 21% 26.5%, Max crit reduce cp tree 25%
-This cut's you down to 1.51x or 1.57x crit modifier.

I see nothing wrong here. My only issue is that Shield's cannot be crit. It's about time this is possible.

I run a crit build and i'm fine with Impen. Nobody use's it anyway's since this is a damage race. However it's stupid how shield's are 100% crit resistant.

Also you have to take into account CP cap's. All stamina builds are going to go for Unchained so that's only going to be about 10% into the CP tree Resistant if they put points into that to begin with.

maybe once cp cap's are raised this will be a problem but the whole cp system is a problem to begin with. i for one will be playing pvp in campaign's with no cp.

Joy_Division

The answer to balance problems is not nerf what is desirable.

Rather it is to make that which is not desirable a compelling alternative.

I occasionally hear people make arguments for exploration, sturdy, training, and well-fitted, but all I see in group chat and in TS is how these are useless rewards, decon trash, and a huge problem with the RNG system. Do we really need 4 traits for niche builds that 5% of the community actually uses?

If ZoS made armor traits that enabled faster ultimate gain, quicker movement, reduced costs to stuff like block & break free, better shields, or other stuff that players want in combat, then the impen problem you fear will solve itself.

Xeniph

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

-Nightblade's have 1.6x crit modifier.
-Shadow Mundus 12% without Divine's, 18% with divine's.
-25% More Crit damage from CP.
-Total = 1.97x or 2.03x crit modifier max as a Nightblade.

-Impen 7 trait's 21%, Max crit reduce cp tree 25%
-This cut's you down to 1.51x or 1.57x crit modifier.

I see nothing wrong here. My only issue is that Shield's cannot be crit. It's about time this is possible.

I run a crit build and i'm fine with Impen. Nobody use's it anyway's since this is a damage race. However it's stupid how shield's are 100% crit resistant.

Also you have to take into account CP cap's. All stamina builds are going to go for Unchained so that's only going to be about 10% into the CP tree Resistant if they put points into that to begin with.

maybe once cp cap's are raised this will be a problem but the whole cp system is a problem to begin with. i for one will be playing pvp in campaign's with no cp.

Actually, from my testing I find 66 points of impen to be roughly 1% in value.

So 7 Impen would = 26.51% Roughly.

Edit* As anyone rarely, if ever uses the shadow in pvp due to too many shields. The OP could have a valid point. But I think it may be too early and requires extensive testing.

r.jan_emailb16_ESO

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Oh look some one asking for stamina base builds and tanks to be buffed up and mostly all the magicka users saying "L2P".

I'm playing a stamina build at the moment, and I don't need to rely on crits to win. I don't even have high weapon damage. You can win fights even if you're not able to burst someone from stealth, you know.

lolo_01b16_ESO

Impen is fine in my opinion.
Resistant cp and Elfoborn / Precise Strikes cancel out each other. So if you invest cp in crit damage and your opponent invests the same amout of cp in crit damage reduction, you'll do the same damage as if none of you would have cp in those stars.
If you look at armour traits, you'll see that the question weather reinforced or impen offers more protection depends on the piece of armour you use. On a light belt, impen will be better but on a shield or heavy chest reinforced will be better on average unless you only fight people with 80+% crit chance.

Asmael

I'm fine with Impen (OK, that's actually totally biased since I'm using it), but looks like other traits need a buff, and a serious one. It's in the works, from what I heard, but until then...
- Sturdy
- Well fitted (this one deserves a special circle in hell, seriously)
- Training
- Exploration
- Charged
- Powered
- Infused (small pieces only)

... All are still trash that leave room to Infused (large pieces) and divines (plus Impen for PvP).

phillyboy7897

No. Tanking needs buffing in PvP not nerfing. Only Mag Sorc can tank. Heavy armor needs buff and resource regen needs a huge nerf. Remove all green cp in Cyrodiil please

Docmandu

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

On a light belt, impen will be better but on a shield or heavy chest reinforced will be better on average unless you only fight people with 80+% crit chance.

Since there's 5 one-shot build NBs under every rock in Cyrodiil, I'd say that currectly Impen > Reinforced.

Draxys

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Oh look some one asking for stamina base builds and tanks to be buffed up and mostly all the magicka users saying "L2P".

Oh look, someone is salty because the power difference between magicka and stamina builds is finally being balanced. And no, I'm not currently using a magicka build

Aoife32001

Niaver wrote: »

How about making those who wear Heavy Armor tanky, and those who not wear HA - squishy?

Careful. You might blow Zenimax's mind

actosh

Its still a big fail in terms of design that light armor is 50% of Heavy Armors value, it needs to be turned down to what it was before, the 25%. Same for medium, make it only 50% of heavy. A

Make Heavy Armor Passives usefull again.
We need resistance to crits, Armor Pen/Spell Pen and give us back the Weapon Dmg Passive to get 1% Weapon Dmg per heavy piece used.

Constitution, either raise the value by 75% or reduce to coolddown to 2 or 0 seconds. Since u took away stam regen while blocking, it would be a nice trade.

RAISE the option to resist crits. U spec into it, so u should get at least some benefit.

DHale

I run 7/8 Inpen get critted all the time. So to nerf it further is ridiculous the 70 percent crit builds are doing fine. It's a good but not great off set to them sounds like you want to run a crit build. Inpen needs a buff not a nerf IMO it's very easy to run and build high crit builds.

twincannon

phillyboy7897 wrote: »

Remove all green cp in Cyrodiil please

Well, in Az... :P

MrTarkanian48

Impen is good as it is a viable alternative to infused/divines.

However, I think that non-crittable shields (along with other changes) are just going to swing the balance in favor of Magicka Sorcerer.

A stam user (or any build without shields), will be forced to choose between Impen for crit resistance or Infused/Divines for more damage. Sorcerers will not need to make this choice. They can stack shields for Crit resist, and then go infused divines for increased damage.

Addtionally they will now be able to slot Radiant Magelight which will give them resistance to stealth damage.

On top of being very damage resistant, they will now buff both Magic and Elemental damage in one consolidated CP slot, so all of their damage dealing abilities will be stronger than they were before. ( I do not dislike this change and think that it is warranted, but this change amongst the others listed will make Mag Sorc very powerful.)

Crown

I put up a spread sheet of crit vs impen at goo.gl/84hnar for current live data.

Even with full resistant and impen you're still going to take good damage from crits. Look at the last line on the first page noting the math for if both parties (attacker and defender) with max crit damage and max resistant/impen.

cschwingeb14_ESO

Why is this turning into a nerf sorc thread?

Anyway, in PvE, Impenetrable is currently useless. So this is purely a PvP concern. It's also purely a gear concern and doesn't involve CP. There is a new CP node that increases damage to damage shields. If you want to damage shield, pick that one. If you want to damage people via crits, pick the increase crit damage one. If you are worried about sorcs dealing elemental and magicka damage, use the combined defense node for those.

Impenetrable vs divines? Balanced in pvp

Everything else vs divines or impen? Worthless

Docmandu

DHale wrote: »

I run 7/8 Inpen get critted all the time. So to nerf it further is ridiculous the 70 percent crit builds are doing fine. It's a good but not great off set to them sounds like you want to run a crit build. Inpen needs a buff not a nerf IMO it's very easy to run and build high crit builds.

You need to read up on patch notes :-) Impenetrable doesn't prevent critical hits anymore.. It just lowers their extra damage.

Emma_Overload

LOL @ all the OP stamina builds crying that they'll be "severely gimped".....

HOW do you reckon that? You will now be facing EXACTLY the same level of mitigation that magic builds have always faced. You never thought it was a little strange that your Wrecking Blows hit for 12K, but your victim's Crystal Frag only hit you for 8K?

HAHAHAHA... your days of overpoweredness are coming to an end. Can't wait to taste your salty tears!

caeliusstarbreaker

Don't touch impen. I still don't see why magicka and stam dmg is supposed to be "balanced" given skill layouts and morphs etc. Yes stam dmg needs to be toned down. However there are plenty of magicka builds that hit just as hard as stam builds.

Cathexis

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

LOL @ all the OP stamina builds crying that they'll be "severely gimped".....

HOW do you reckon that? You will now be facing EXACTLY the same level of mitigation that magic builds have always faced. You never thought it was a little strange that your Wrecking Blows hit for 12K, but your victim's Crystal Frag only hit you for 8K?

HAHAHAHA... your days of overpoweredness are coming to an end. Can't wait to taste your salty tears!

.... mag builds do just as much damage. Ever been hit by a 15k crystal shards, probably haven't noticed because you are too busy shield spamming and not getting hit with criticals. Because hey, you don't have to use crit redux or healing when shield stacking.

Have you ever actually played a stam class? A heavy armor build? If you did, youd be angry too.

oibam

If impen is too strong for crit builds -> change build away from high crit chance?