PTS Discussion: AP needed to get Alliance War skills to 10

ZOS_CoriJ

We are finishing a sweep of this thread:

Based on the topic of this conversation and the contribution of further information, it's expected that the debate gets heated. However, please keep your comments respectful. We want to keep focused on future discussion that stays on topic and doesn't get personal.

CatchMeTrolling

Tankqull wrote: »

Jaronking wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

driosketch wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

[*] Over the past 8 weeks, the average PvP player earns ~10k AP/day. This means it takes roughly 692 days of PvP for them to reach rank 10 in the skill lines.

Totally called this is what the average is two months ago.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2525433#Comment_2525433

I wouldn't call anyone getting 10k ap a day a pvp player lol you can get that from one keep battle, come on now

Man I have to agree with you on this if you only making 10k ap in a day your doing something completely wrong.If your only making 10K AP a hour your doing something completely wrong.I have to say their data has to be completely tainted with PVErs and consoles players who didn't know what they were doing.This just doesn't seem even close to right.

well i´m netting 10k a day quite often...

after enduring the lag for 15mins i start playing tetris on my game boy thats more entertaining and thrilling...

Okay would you really count that play time in your statistics? I mean it's like saying because I do a daily once a day I should be counted with the core pve players.

bowmanz607

ZOS_CoriJ wrote: »

We are finishing a sweep of this thread:

Based on the topic of this conversation and the contribution of further information, it's expected that the debate gets heated. However, please keep your comments respectful. We want to keep focused on future discussion that stays on topic and doesn't get personal.

i was wondering when this would happen. Does anybody actually know the topic here?

@Crown Tomorrow I will post varying levels. I will post a v4 temp that spent majority of time in pvp leveling. A v23 healer that has done nothing but pvp since level 10. A level 47 nb that spent all time from level 30 in pvp. Last, a level 30 dk that spent all time in pvp since 22. Hopefully this diverse set of toons will help with what your doing.

Crown

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Tomorrow I will post varying levels. I will post a v4 temp that spent majority of time in pvp leveling. A v23 healer that has done nothing but pvp since level 10. A level 47 nb that spent all time from level 30 in pvp. Last, a level 30 dk that spent all time in pvp since 22. Hopefully this diverse set of toons will help with what your doing.

@bowmanz607 Thanks, though we've gotten the details we needed, and the ZOS response confirmed the numbers - so no need!

bowmanz607

Crown wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Tomorrow I will post varying levels. I will post a v4 temp that spent majority of time in pvp leveling. A v23 healer that has done nothing but pvp since level 10. A level 47 nb that spent all time from level 30 in pvp. Last, a level 30 dk that spent all time in pvp since 22. Hopefully this diverse set of toons will help with what your doing.

@bowmanz607 Thanks, though we've gotten the details we needed, and the ZOS response confirmed the numbers - so no need!

well fine. I didnt want to anyway

driosketch

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Okay good luck with your 8.8 gains .

I'll post a screen shot of 10% reward mail for you when the campaign ends.

[Edited to remove quoted comment]

Skinzz

I still dont understand how someone gains such little ap in an hour/day. I can literally spawn into a keep, run into the field and kill 8 people in a span of 10 mins or less and already gain nearly 10k ap.

GorraShatan

@ZOS_RichLambert - what I don't get is why you say you want to make things more accessible, but make changes to things like rapid maneuvres that make things tougher for ungrouped new players?

GorraShatan

And yah, 110% awesome to see you in this thread Rich.

Molag_Crow

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Some quick notes as to why we’re making the changes to the AP required for the Assault/Support skill lines:

• The top 5 AP earners worldwide, over the past 8 weeks are averaging 32k AP/hour. This means it takes roughly 212 hours of PvP to reach rank 10 in the skill lines for them.
• Over the past 8 weeks, the average PvP player earns ~10k AP/day. This means it takes roughly 692 days of PvP for them to reach rank 10 in the skill lines.

We want these skill lines to be a lot more accessible than what I noted above. We made some changes to how AP is awarded and that will help some, but it’s not enough - we need to reduce the amount of AP required as well. That being said, the numbers that are currently on PTS are too low and will be updated in next week’s PTS build. The new numbers will be:

• Rank 2 – 700
• Rank 3 – 8,000
• Rank 4 – 38,000
• Rank 5 – 98,000
• Rank 6 – 188,000
• Rank 7 – 308,000
• Rank 8 – 488,000
• Rank 9 – 758,000
• Rank 10 – 1,158,000

(Note: this is the cumulative AP, so to reach rank 10 you need to earn 1,158,000 AP)

With these changes the “Top 5” group will be able to unlock all AvA skills in roughly 36 hours, while the average player will take roughly 116 days. It’s still a long haul effort for the average player, but it’s at least in the realm of possible for them now.

Also, while I’m on the topic of AP earning, we used this same data to help set the AP cost for the items that Adhazabi Aba-daro sells. (Cyrodiil rare item merchant) The “Top 5” group will be able to earn 200k AP in about 6 hours, while the average player will take about 20 days.

This is more like it! Thanks for the info.

Jura23

Manoekin wrote: »

driosketch wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

Let me stop the arguing.

In order to get to an "average" of 10k a DAY you have to have people who make less than that and presumably some or many who make zero. That is what your average is. Your average are the people who don't participate in almost any way in PvP.

10k per day is high, if they were counting 0s. In fact 10k still looks high considering where I'm ranked right now. They probably factored out the bare minimums, but there are likely a lot of weekend only players.

With those people I have no problem. To simply say that they deserve the same rewards as others who play more often and put in much more effort is what I have a problem with.

It's often pretty hard to find fights in IC for example and you can put a lot of effort into it and still get low AP. But that doesn't make you less PvPer than somebody who play at keeps and gets all the d ticks.

Septimus_Magna

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Over the past 8 weeks, the average PvP player earns ~10k AP/day[ /i]

Hahaha, no wonder they are complaining..

Maybe it would be more effective to explain them how to gain AP properly.

Satiar

The amount of AP you need for this now is literally the amount of AP I got in my first PvP day with Hijinx.

That's crazy, talk about lowering the bar.

kyle.wilson

10k per day, you can easily make more than that in an hour. unless your averaging the PVErs that are in pvp.
But if you lower the bar that much then we will see proxy bomb groups become a thing in bwb.
I'm hoping its just for the pts only.
But, then again i've been in pop-locked azura star before with no action for 30min. Which is pretty odd.

Docmandu

This thread once again shows how far disconnected from reality some of the forum posters are! Reminds me of the "but everybody is above the 501 CP cap, why you implement such low cap ZOS".. where the truth was an average of 91 CP.

It's probably a good thing that ZOS regularly ignores our suggestions

Jura23

Docmandu wrote: »

This thread once again shows how far disconnected from reality some of the forum posters are! Reminds me of the "but everybody is above the 501 CP cap, why you implement such low cap ZOS".. where the truth was an average of 91 CP.

It's probably a good thing that ZOS regularly ignores our suggestions

Those ppl you talk about were at 300+ CP at that time and complaining about imaginary 1500+ guys out there. Then ZOS introduced cap and it turned out that 1500+ gyus are basically non existant, while 300+ CP ppl are in fact those that others need to catch up to. The reactions were quite hilarious. And I agree this is kinda similar situation.

Valencer

It's not just a tweak. Theyre cutting the AP requirements by a huge amount even with the revised values that were presented in this thread. Not to mention we'll get double AP from player kills now.
Unless my math is off we're talking about Assault/Support 10 requiring about 10x less effort. I think it's fair to have serious concerns about that.

I've been PvPing for over a year but not enough on the same character to actually make it to Assault/Support 10. And I love it.. my sorcerer's close to 9 and it feels like an achievement. Not enough things in this game feel like they take actual effort anymore (outside of ridiculous RNG, which isnt really the fun kind of effort) and this is one of the few things that still did.

Rust_in_Peace

Docmandu wrote: »

This thread once again shows how far disconnected from reality some of the forum posters are! Reminds me of the "but everybody is above the 501 CP cap, why you implement such low cap ZOS".. where the truth was an average of 91 CP.

It's probably a good thing that ZOS regularly ignores our suggestions

Pretty much. It should have never cost 7 million AP to get to Assault/Support rank 10 in the first place. Making it easier shouldn't hurt anyone unless you're someone who thinks having that advantage over others is the crutch keeping you afloat in pvp.

bowmanz607

So how does your

kyle.wilson wrote: »

10k per day, you can easily make more than that in an hour. unless your averaging the PVErs that are in pvp.
But if you lower the bar that much then we will see proxy bomb groups become a thing in bwb.
I'm hoping its just for the pts only.
But, then again i've been in pop-locked azura star before with no action for 30min. Which is pretty odd.

So only experienced players that have been around for a long time are allowed to have such a powerful skill? Here you go elite players, you can have one of the strongest skills in the game to go along with everything else you have but casual players you can not have it. Come on now. What better way to get used to the action that occurs on vet then putting it in nonvet?

Brrrofski

Well I play in a group of 3-5 usually for about 3 hours a

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Docmandu wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

jcasini222ub17_ESO wrote: »

Maybe in vet but its much more difficult to pull a 10k tick in nonvet. The largest tick i received nonvet was 6k, and if your thinking 'hey did everyone run off' yes, yes they did. Also lower ranks award less ap I believe. So there will be a difference in accumlation between vet and nonvet.

I had Krog in nonvet from 10 to level 43, played most nights, then had to stop to accumlate skillpoints. Literally wasnt out of Daggerfall at 43. He's now vr9 finishing silver/gold (maybe) before he healbots/meatshields again.

Yeah the gains are lower but in a day you're only getting 10k ap? I highly doubt that , that sounds like someone jumping on for 30mins and getting off

Your "average" player most likely doesn't spend 5 hours a day playing either... just sayin'

You don't even have to play an hour to get 10kap, that's nothing lol the fact you guys are trying to make it seem like a lot is hilarious

The fact that you got Emp means you zerg. Yes, anyone can get 10k ap an hour in a zerg.

Not all of us enjoy a zerg though. I earnt about 50k ap in like 3 hours last night. Playing in a group of 5, all of us decent pvp players who got a lot of kills. Unless you're in a 20 man plus group, ap isn't that easy to get in all honesty.

Jaronking

Brrrofski wrote: »

Well I play in a group of 3-5 usually for about 3 hours a

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Docmandu wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

jcasini222ub17_ESO wrote: »

Maybe in vet but its much more difficult to pull a 10k tick in nonvet. The largest tick i received nonvet was 6k, and if your thinking 'hey did everyone run off' yes, yes they did. Also lower ranks award less ap I believe. So there will be a difference in accumlation between vet and nonvet.

I had Krog in nonvet from 10 to level 43, played most nights, then had to stop to accumlate skillpoints. Literally wasnt out of Daggerfall at 43. He's now vr9 finishing silver/gold (maybe) before he healbots/meatshields again.

Yeah the gains are lower but in a day you're only getting 10k ap? I highly doubt that , that sounds like someone jumping on for 30mins and getting off

Your "average" player most likely doesn't spend 5 hours a day playing either... just sayin'

You don't even have to play an hour to get 10kap, that's nothing lol the fact you guys are trying to make it seem like a lot is hilarious

The fact that you got Emp means you zerg. Yes, anyone can get 10k ap an hour in a zerg.

Not all of us enjoy a zerg though. I earnt about 50k ap in like 3 hours last night. Playing in a group of 5, all of us decent pvp players who got a lot of kills. Unless you're in a 20 man plus group, ap isn't that easy to get in all honesty.

That's a lie you do not have to Zerg to earn more than 10k a hour.I run solo or in a small group with guild mates at most it's 8 of us usually 4-5.When it's just me I can gank at the keep in front of the keep my factions is attacking.and make 10k in less than 10 minutes of just doing that.Even running around open world or defending a keep with only a few people can net you 10 just from the defense.

Brrrofski

Jaronking wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

Well I play in a group of 3-5 usually for about 3 hours a

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Docmandu wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

jcasini222ub17_ESO wrote: »

Maybe in vet but its much more difficult to pull a 10k tick in nonvet. The largest tick i received nonvet was 6k, and if your thinking 'hey did everyone run off' yes, yes they did. Also lower ranks award less ap I believe. So there will be a difference in accumlation between vet and nonvet.

I had Krog in nonvet from 10 to level 43, played most nights, then had to stop to accumlate skillpoints. Literally wasnt out of Daggerfall at 43. He's now vr9 finishing silver/gold (maybe) before he healbots/meatshields again.

Yeah the gains are lower but in a day you're only getting 10k ap? I highly doubt that , that sounds like someone jumping on for 30mins and getting off

Your "average" player most likely doesn't spend 5 hours a day playing either... just sayin'

You don't even have to play an hour to get 10kap, that's nothing lol the fact you guys are trying to make it seem like a lot is hilarious

The fact that you got Emp means you zerg. Yes, anyone can get 10k ap an hour in a zerg.

Not all of us enjoy a zerg though. I earnt about 50k ap in like 3 hours last night. Playing in a group of 5, all of us decent pvp players who got a lot of kills. Unless you're in a 20 man plus group, ap isn't that easy to get in all honesty.

That's a lie you do not have to Zerg to earn more than 10k a hour.I run solo or in a small group with guild mates at most it's 8 of us usually 4-5.When it's just me I can gank at the keep in front of the keep my factions is attacking.and make 10k in less than 10 minutes of just doing that.Even running around open world or defending a keep with only a few people can net you 10 just from the defense.

I've never had more than like 5k from a keep defence.

Even 20 minute with them pushing in the inner postern and back out, in and out, in and out. It's like 5k max.

I didn't say you have to zerg, but the guy I said it to had been Emp. You have to zerg to get Emp. So his opinion of how easy ap is to gain is different to other people's

Ghostbane

I made 10k per hour once, but then I took an arrow to the knee.

driosketch

Jaronking wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

Well I play in a group of 3-5 usually for about 3 hours a

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Docmandu wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

jcasini222ub17_ESO wrote: »

Maybe in vet but its much more difficult to pull a 10k tick in nonvet. The largest tick i received nonvet was 6k, and if your thinking 'hey did everyone run off' yes, yes they did. Also lower ranks award less ap I believe. So there will be a difference in accumlation between vet and nonvet.

I had Krog in nonvet from 10 to level 43, played most nights, then had to stop to accumlate skillpoints. Literally wasnt out of Daggerfall at 43. He's now vr9 finishing silver/gold (maybe) before he healbots/meatshields again.

Yeah the gains are lower but in a day you're only getting 10k ap? I highly doubt that , that sounds like someone jumping on for 30mins and getting off

Your "average" player most likely doesn't spend 5 hours a day playing either... just sayin'

You don't even have to play an hour to get 10kap, that's nothing lol the fact you guys are trying to make it seem like a lot is hilarious

The fact that you got Emp means you zerg. Yes, anyone can get 10k ap an hour in a zerg.

Not all of us enjoy a zerg though. I earnt about 50k ap in like 3 hours last night. Playing in a group of 5, all of us decent pvp players who got a lot of kills. Unless you're in a 20 man plus group, ap isn't that easy to get in all honesty.

That's a lie you do not have to Zerg to earn more than 10k a hour.I run solo or in a small group with guild mates at most it's 8 of us usually 4-5.When it's just me I can gank at the keep in front of the keep my factions is attacking.and make 10k in less than 10 minutes of just doing that.Even running around open world or defending a keep with only a few people can net you 10 just from the defense.

DC with six keeps, working without a group, transit to Ales, retake undefended Bleaks with a few others while EP took back Chal. That was the first 10 mins. Failed attempt to retake Chal, no apparent heal AP coming in. Moved to Ash, killed some AD where the action was. Back to Bleaks area, and then to Ales for keep defense. Finally to Bleaks to defend it. After one hour 6900 AP was earned.

Kill credit ranges from 2 AP to 557 AP, the average per tag/kill was 108 AP.

Defense ticks range from 100 to 1488, average per tick was 708.5.

That is what the average player is likely pulling.

10 kills in 10 minutes is the ideal. You usually aren't going to find that in real play without an ally dipping into your AP credit, or getting over run by the other side's zerg. If you can, good for you, it is not what's typical.

AverageJo3Gam3r

Valencer wrote: »

It's not just a tweak. Theyre cutting the AP requirements by a huge amount even with the revised values that were presented in this thread. Not to mention we'll get double AP from player kills now.
Unless my math is off we're talking about Assault/Support 10 requiring about 10x less effort. I think it's fair to have serious concerns about that.

I've been PvPing for over a year but not enough on the same character to actually make it to Assault/Support 10. And I love it.. my sorcerer's close to 9 and it feels like an achievement. Not enough things in this game feel like they take actual effort anymore (outside of ridiculous RNG, which isnt really the fun kind of effort) and this is one of the few things that still did.

U can still chase the alliance rank titles

Dalglish

It's funny that people comment about how unfair it is that people can now get AR10 so much easier.

Before anyone attacks, I have 3 characters AR 10 and a couple of others 7+ so I have pvp'd a lot in this game.

For this game to survive it's simple that they need to incentivise returning players to the game and give a sense of an actual working catch-up mechanic for new players; to know that they can compete in a pretty short timescale. The original AR grind was wrong, it should have always been the way they plan it to be (maybe a little more for each assault/support level for arguments sake, but nowhere near to what it used to be).

The actual campaign rank and skill line should not have anything to do with each other. They should be completely separate so that the guys that have earned their ranks pre-patch still get to keep their achievements. The grind of ranks should stay intact.

Anyone who is totally against the changes are just simply campaigning against any chance of the game surviving (a lot claim it's already dead).

If it is a problem that everyone has the same skills, and they are being spammed; the skills need looking at, not the fact that people have access to them.

AbraXuSeXile

10k AP a day really? Can get that afk in a keep in an hour.

Cogo

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Some quick notes as to why we’re making the changes to the AP required for the Assault/Support skill lines:

• The top 5 AP earners worldwide, over the past 8 weeks are averaging 32k AP/hour. This means it takes roughly 212 hours of PvP to reach rank 10 in the skill lines for them.
• Over the past 8 weeks, the average PvP player earns ~10k AP/day. This means it takes roughly 692 days of PvP for them to reach rank 10 in the skill lines.

We want these skill lines to be a lot more accessible than what I noted above. We made some changes to how AP is awarded and that will help some, but it’s not enough - we need to reduce the amount of AP required as well. That being said, the numbers that are currently on PTS are too low and will be updated in next week’s PTS build. The new numbers will be:

• Rank 2 – 700
• Rank 3 – 8,000
• Rank 4 – 38,000
• Rank 5 – 98,000
• Rank 6 – 188,000
• Rank 7 – 308,000
• Rank 8 – 488,000
• Rank 9 – 758,000
• Rank 10 – 1,158,000

(Note: this is the cumulative AP, so to reach rank 10 you need to earn 1,158,000 AP)

With these changes the “Top 5” group will be able to unlock all AvA skills in roughly 36 hours, while the average player will take roughly 116 days. It’s still a long haul effort for the average player, but it’s at least in the realm of possible for them now.

Also, while I’m on the topic of AP earning, we used this same data to help set the AP cost for the items that Adhazabi Aba-daro sells. (Cyrodiil rare item merchant) The “Top 5” group will be able to earn 200k AP in about 6 hours, while the average player will take about 20 days.

@ZOS_RichLambert

Hi Rich!

It's amazing how well you guys listen to the community!

I feel one part of the community isn't getting heard.
Why does everything have to be easier to get? Why does everything have to require less effort or time to gain?

When something is easy to get, it looses its value.
Changes that makes anything easier or faster to get, which applies to everyone, only removes goals or rewards.

I want harder targets to reach!
I want a war rank 11, with a new skill which I might never reach! But each day in the conflict brings me closer to this new rank 11 skill. THAT is that magic of earning something and keep ESO fun.

Not all players wants easy. Quite a lot wants harder goals. Harder to gain new abilities etc.

I hope you also listen to us players who wants more challenging content and goals. Who wants more alliance war skills but MUCH harder to gain them! We want goals which we might never reach!

Making things easier will just hurt ESO.

Why fast and easy is bad for ESO
In WoW all player gets everything very fast and only needs to press "group finder" ques to join anything and get the "the best" items. WoW also have the largest overturn of players in any mmo.
WoW have tons of players when they release something new, which cuts in half only weeks after. Since everyone seen everything, have everything and have done everything......or bought it in AH.

You can't really compare MMOs, but you can show the effect of quick and easy vs time and effort.

ESO is interesting and fun because there is always something to get. A new skill to gain, etc. Please don't make it WoW...

Alliance war skill line
Isn't the whole idea with this skill line, to be awarded to the dedicated soldiers in the conflict, just like emp is the highest rare price players can get? (Yes, there are million ways to get emp without deserving it). Emp title is still something most players would love to have. Only because it's rare!

The war rank first ranks can be fast, that's fine, but shouldn't it take time to reach skill 2 and 3? Skill 4 should be something you earn by time and effort and not something everyone just "gets", like max in a weapon skill?

The value and interest in gaining something valuable!
Just like titles, shouldn't War rank, be something players gets rewarded in time, with a top which only a few will reach? With plenty of stages between 1-10? Just like beating the Arena! To Get all rare fish! To heal the most in dungeons! To become EMP on prime time or to research the 9th trait!

All these are cool and fun to gain because of time and effort all players need to put in to earn them.
By making anything easier to get, it only removes its value and becomes a "must have", like block, run, light attack.

Right now, the Alliance war skill line is still a goal and players have to put in time and effort to gain ranks. The time is the same for everyone. No matter how often or how much you play, we all have to put in similar time and effort to gain the war rank. The difference is only WHEN you get it.

Alliance war rank 50 for example. Its GREAT that someone like me, who plays tons, still have not gained it. Whatever I do in Cyrodiil, I always have a new title at some time. I might never reach rank 50, GREAT! That makes it so much more valuable and interesting to get. And respect to those who have rank 50!

Most pvp title ranks still means something.
Simply because they require time and effort to gain.
If everyone gets all pvp ranks in a few weeks, then the titles would completely loose their value and any interest in getting them.

I don't want to "block" anyone from getting anything. I just want ZoS to keep ESO effort = reward.
Please don't make the war skill easier to get. Its easy enough! We need new goal to gain!

Please add more alliance war skills
Passive and/or active. But make them MUUUCH harder to gain! This would increase the interest in Cyro AND add value to our game play.

For example: (new skills)
Alliance war skill 5 = War rank 32
Alliance war skill 6 = War rank 36
Alliance war skill 7 = War rank 40

WITHOUT making it easier and faster to gain a war rank!

--Oghur Hatemachine

Cogo

AbraXuSeXile wrote: »

10k AP a day really? Can get that afk in a keep in an hour.

Hour? 10-15K per keep fight, is kinda normal what I used to get when defending empty keeps at night.

DRXHarbinger

May have missed this but. But say if my NB is rank 5 at the moment. When all is live will it be boosted up straight away or will I have to do a lesser grind to hit rank 6?