@ZOS the max level on scaled dungeons should not exceed the highest leveled player in the group

NewBlacksmurf

Yes, the max level should be based on the highest person in the group and not VR16

code65536 wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

You're entitled to your opinions but in actual practice...a lot of your comments are just opinions and your own theories.

First off...level 10 is when you can use the grouping tools not 8

I assure you, this isn't opinion. This is me doing lots of dungeons, on lowbies and on my VRs, with and without LFG. Also, my level 8 did Spindleclutch with a random invite-the-people-standing-outside-the-dungeon group (no LFG). And, yes, even with Spindle scaled to level 10, my level 8 with no CP was carrying the group with people level 10-14 because things like player experience is far, far more important than raw stats or levels, which is why newbie players will struggle whether they're doing it scaled VR16 or doing it at level.

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

fact, is when the dungeon is set over 30+ levels higher than the highest character, the encounter is substantially harder.

Um. You do understand that you're battle-leveled, right?? Yes, the dungeon is scaled up to VR16. But you are also scaled up to VR15. Your stats, your armor, your weapons, your food, your potions--they're all scaled up too. There is no substantial difference between doing a dungeon at level and doing a dungeon at VR16, when you are battle-leveled.

Bruh!!!!!!!

You Literally just supported what I've been writing. Seriously...that's been the whole point (ref to when your lvl 8 was invited ) as the adjustments outside of the grouping tool scaling is not good or best for lower levels compared to the group based leader scaling.


Why do you assume that no one knew how to play. We were on voice chat and all were frustrated but it's not a lack of experience or skill.
Cmon ...


Yes I understand exactly how battle levelin works. Read what you wrote and then realize what I'm writing and have written.
When everyone doesn't have blue or purple items with enchants in each slot...you can scale to Vr18....it's still not going to help. CPs or not, excluding a brand new player which some that left I'm sure are...but those who talked this out and do so every time aren't noobs to ESO or MMoRPGs.



Do yourself a favor. IF you're on Xbox one or PS4.
Roll a level 10-12. Go queue and do a dungeon where all are level 30 or lower. Record 10-15 minutes and link it where no one is in sets or crafted or blue and purples twinkled out.

laksikus

No, the scaling to VR16 is a better system

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

You're entitled to your opinions but in actual practice...a lot of your comments are just opinions and your own theories.

First off...level 10 is when you can use the grouping tools not 8

I assure you, this isn't opinion. This is me doing lots of dungeons, on lowbies and on my VRs, with and without LFG. Also, my level 8 did Spindleclutch with a random invite-the-people-standing-outside-the-dungeon group (no LFG). And, yes, even with Spindle scaled to level 10, my level 8 with no CP was carrying the group with people level 10-14 because things like player experience is far, far more important than raw stats or levels, which is why newbie players will struggle whether they're doing it scaled VR16 or doing it at level.

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

fact, is when the dungeon is set over 30+ levels higher than the highest character, the encounter is substantially harder.

Um. You do understand that you're battle-leveled, right?? Yes, the dungeon is scaled up to VR16. But you are also scaled up to VR15. Your stats, your armor, your weapons, your food, your potions--they're all scaled up too. There is no substantial difference between doing a dungeon at level and doing a dungeon at VR16, when you are battle-leveled.

Bruh!!!!!!!

You Literally just supported what I've been writing. Seriously...that's been the whole point (ref to when your lvl 8 was invited ) as the adjustments outside of the grouping tool scaling is not good or best for lower levels compared to the group based leader scaling.


Why do you assume that no one knew how to play. We were on voice chat and all were frustrated but it's not a lack of experience or skill.
Cmon ...


Yes I understand exactly how battle levelin works. Read what you wrote and then realize what I'm writing and have written.
When everyone doesn't have blue or purple items with enchants in each slot...you can scale to Vr18....it's still not going to help. CPs or not, excluding a brand new player which some that left I'm sure are...but those who talked this out and do so every time aren't noobs to ESO or MMoRPGs.



Do yourself a favor. IF you're on Xbox one or PS4.
Roll a level 10-12. Go queue and do a dungeon where all are level 30 or lower. Record 10-15 minutes and link it where no one is in sets or crafted or blue and purples twinkled out.

and still:
IT *** DOESNT MATTER. if you are scaled to lvl 30 or v16.
For lvl 10 it will be the same.

Nothing chances if you ahve 10/10/15/30 all to lvl 30 scaled or 10/10/15/30 to lvl v16 scaled.
It will be the same difficulty for everyone of those 4 players.

Mechanics dont change

PKLdude

laksikus wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

You're entitled to your opinions but in actual practice...a lot of your comments are just opinions and your own theories.

First off...level 10 is when you can use the grouping tools not 8

I assure you, this isn't opinion. This is me doing lots of dungeons, on lowbies and on my VRs, with and without LFG. Also, my level 8 did Spindleclutch with a random invite-the-people-standing-outside-the-dungeon group (no LFG). And, yes, even with Spindle scaled to level 10, my level 8 with no CP was carrying the group with people level 10-14 because things like player experience is far, far more important than raw stats or levels, which is why newbie players will struggle whether they're doing it scaled VR16 or doing it at level.

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

fact, is when the dungeon is set over 30+ levels higher than the highest character, the encounter is substantially harder.

Um. You do understand that you're battle-leveled, right?? Yes, the dungeon is scaled up to VR16. But you are also scaled up to VR15. Your stats, your armor, your weapons, your food, your potions--they're all scaled up too. There is no substantial difference between doing a dungeon at level and doing a dungeon at VR16, when you are battle-leveled.

Bruh!!!!!!!

You Literally just supported what I've been writing. Seriously...that's been the whole point (ref to when your lvl 8 was invited ) as the adjustments outside of the grouping tool scaling is not good or best for lower levels compared to the group based leader scaling.


Why do you assume that no one knew how to play. We were on voice chat and all were frustrated but it's not a lack of experience or skill.
Cmon ...


Yes I understand exactly how battle levelin works. Read what you wrote and then realize what I'm writing and have written.
When everyone doesn't have blue or purple items with enchants in each slot...you can scale to Vr18....it's still not going to help. CPs or not, excluding a brand new player which some that left I'm sure are...but those who talked this out and do so every time aren't noobs to ESO or MMoRPGs.



Do yourself a favor. IF you're on Xbox one or PS4.
Roll a level 10-12. Go queue and do a dungeon where all are level 30 or lower. Record 10-15 minutes and link it where no one is in sets or crafted or blue and purples twinkled out.

and still:
IT *** DOESNT MATTER. if you are scaled to lvl 30 or v16.
For lvl 10 it will be the same.

Nothing chances if you ahve 10/10/15/30 all to lvl 30 scaled or 10/10/15/30 to lvl v16 scaled.
It will be the same difficulty for everyone of those 4 players.

Mechanics dont change

Mechanics don't change but the available skills to a character knowledge that is where the difficulty lies and so battle leveling does make the grouping easier but often times especially when their knowledge of the character is lacking or the skills just arnt available then it makes this mechanics that much harder for them and the group as whole.

code65536

No, the scaling to VR16 is a better system

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

You're entitled to your opinions but in actual practice...a lot of your comments are just opinions and your own theories.

First off...level 10 is when you can use the grouping tools not 8

I assure you, this isn't opinion. This is me doing lots of dungeons, on lowbies and on my VRs, with and without LFG. Also, my level 8 did Spindleclutch with a random invite-the-people-standing-outside-the-dungeon group (no LFG). And, yes, even with Spindle scaled to level 10, my level 8 with no CP was carrying the group with people level 10-14 because things like player experience is far, far more important than raw stats or levels, which is why newbie players will struggle whether they're doing it scaled VR16 or doing it at level.

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

fact, is when the dungeon is set over 30+ levels higher than the highest character, the encounter is substantially harder.

Um. You do understand that you're battle-leveled, right?? Yes, the dungeon is scaled up to VR16. But you are also scaled up to VR15. Your stats, your armor, your weapons, your food, your potions--they're all scaled up too. There is no substantial difference between doing a dungeon at level and doing a dungeon at VR16, when you are battle-leveled.

Bruh!!!!!!!

You Literally just supported what I've been writing. Seriously...that's been the whole point (ref to when your lvl 8 was invited ) as the adjustments outside of the grouping tool scaling is not good or best for lower levels compared to the group based leader scaling.


Why do you assume that no one knew how to play. We were on voice chat and all were frustrated but it's not a lack of experience or skill.
Cmon ...


Yes I understand exactly how battle levelin works. Read what you wrote and then realize what I'm writing and have written.
When everyone doesn't have blue or purple items with enchants in each slot...you can scale to Vr18....it's still not going to help. CPs or not, excluding a brand new player which some that left I'm sure are...but those who talked this out and do so every time aren't noobs to ESO or MMoRPGs.



Do yourself a favor. IF you're on Xbox one or PS4.
Roll a level 10-12. Go queue and do a dungeon where all are level 30 or lower. Record 10-15 minutes and link it where no one is in sets or crafted or blue and purples twinkled out.

Gah. Why do I feel like a bloody broken record here?

Scaling DOES NOT MATTER.

A Lv10 in Lv10 Spindle will have the exact same difficulties as a Lv10, scaled to VR15, in VR16-scaled Spindle.

My level 8 example was that having the dungeon scaled at level 10 didn't magically make things easier for those other players who were struggling. Just like having the players and dungeon all scale up to VR16 won't magically make things harder.

None of the complaints that you have--about skills, passives, etc.--are problems caused by scaling or are problems that can be fixed by changes to scaling. Period.

DschiPeunt

No, the scaling to VR16 is a better system

NewBlacksmurf

Yes, the max level should be based on the highest person in the group and not VR16

code65536 wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

You're entitled to your opinions but in actual practice...a lot of your comments are just opinions and your own theories.

First off...level 10 is when you can use the grouping tools not 8

I assure you, this isn't opinion. This is me doing lots of dungeons, on lowbies and on my VRs, with and without LFG. Also, my level 8 did Spindleclutch with a random invite-the-people-standing-outside-the-dungeon group (no LFG). And, yes, even with Spindle scaled to level 10, my level 8 with no CP was carrying the group with people level 10-14 because things like player experience is far, far more important than raw stats or levels, which is why newbie players will struggle whether they're doing it scaled VR16 or doing it at level.

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

fact, is when the dungeon is set over 30+ levels higher than the highest character, the encounter is substantially harder.

Um. You do understand that you're battle-leveled, right?? Yes, the dungeon is scaled up to VR16. But you are also scaled up to VR15. Your stats, your armor, your weapons, your food, your potions--they're all scaled up too. There is no substantial difference between doing a dungeon at level and doing a dungeon at VR16, when you are battle-leveled.

Bruh!!!!!!!

You Literally just supported what I've been writing. Seriously...that's been the whole point (ref to when your lvl 8 was invited ) as the adjustments outside of the grouping tool scaling is not good or best for lower levels compared to the group based leader scaling.


Why do you assume that no one knew how to play. We were on voice chat and all were frustrated but it's not a lack of experience or skill.
Cmon ...


Yes I understand exactly how battle levelin works. Read what you wrote and then realize what I'm writing and have written.
When everyone doesn't have blue or purple items with enchants in each slot...you can scale to Vr18....it's still not going to help. CPs or not, excluding a brand new player which some that left I'm sure are...but those who talked this out and do so every time aren't noobs to ESO or MMoRPGs.



Do yourself a favor. IF you're on Xbox one or PS4.
Roll a level 10-12. Go queue and do a dungeon where all are level 30 or lower. Record 10-15 minutes and link it where no one is in sets or crafted or blue and purples twinkled out.

Gah. Why do I feel like a bloody broken record here?

Scaling DOES NOT MATTER.

A Lv10 in Lv10 Spindle will have the exact same difficulties as a Lv10, scaled to VR15, in VR16-scaled Spindle.

My level 8 example was that having the dungeon scaled at level 10 didn't magically make things easier for those other players who were struggling. Just like having the players and dungeon all scale up to VR16 won't magically make things harder.

None of the complaints that you have--about skills, passive, etc.--are problems caused by scaling or are problems that can be fixed by changes to scaling. Period.

Why do you sound like a broken record...cause u continue to argue your own thoughts vs applying logic to the topic of discussion and suggestion. As your argument...it comes off that you're saying that the relation of dungeon NPCs from level X of any dungeon at its lowest level is in direct and accurate proportion to the VR16 NPCs. That's not what this is about nor the issue ultimately.

As you've shared you do understand how the scaling of player character applies so I'll assume you also understand how the NPC scaling applies. As such you understand that those are independent of one another. There isn't a correlation of NPC scaling to the actual players.

THATs the PROBLeM

That problem is resolved by scaling the dungeon to the characters in it because that is using the correlation of the players and not NPCs alone vs players alone.

Players may join with some or even no armor pieces where some may be white, green or blue...and in rare cases unless crafted or later levels...purple and yellow gear. When the ZOS VR16 scaling applies to players alone...it scales based on what you have and its level compared to your level. By result the players aren't compared to the NPCs so what ends up occurring is the scaling does not offer a realistic chance for players in some greens and no other slots or just in greens and blue but where some aren't close to the players level.

Understand that I'm not inexperienced and this idea does actually offset the current problem. It comes off that you're not of an experience of playing with people who may not be fully equipped or geared at level...often times these players also want the similar option to complete a dungeon like a well geared group.

Regardless of player experiences, scaling is brutal

For example when I first got VR 16 my character had on crafted set gear of Vr12-14. Mostly VR14 but the scaling actually placed the level 45, Vr2 and VR6 with higher stats in all categories specific to their roles compared to me. Sadly tho, we couldn't progress in Spindle because stats don't mean much if the NPCs are still more powerful than you all cause the players aren't wearing better gear and food buffs etc.

Keeping the dungeons in relation to the players actually allows players to self improve and have a chance more than how the current grouping tool scaling applies.

DschiPeunt

No, the scaling to VR16 is a better system

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

You're entitled to your opinions but in actual practice...a lot of your comments are just opinions and your own theories.

First off...level 10 is when you can use the grouping tools not 8

I assure you, this isn't opinion. This is me doing lots of dungeons, on lowbies and on my VRs, with and without LFG. Also, my level 8 did Spindleclutch with a random invite-the-people-standing-outside-the-dungeon group (no LFG). And, yes, even with Spindle scaled to level 10, my level 8 with no CP was carrying the group with people level 10-14 because things like player experience is far, far more important than raw stats or levels, which is why newbie players will struggle whether they're doing it scaled VR16 or doing it at level.

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

fact, is when the dungeon is set over 30+ levels higher than the highest character, the encounter is substantially harder.

Um. You do understand that you're battle-leveled, right?? Yes, the dungeon is scaled up to VR16. But you are also scaled up to VR15. Your stats, your armor, your weapons, your food, your potions--they're all scaled up too. There is no substantial difference between doing a dungeon at level and doing a dungeon at VR16, when you are battle-leveled.

Bruh!!!!!!!

You Literally just supported what I've been writing. Seriously...that's been the whole point (ref to when your lvl 8 was invited ) as the adjustments outside of the grouping tool scaling is not good or best for lower levels compared to the group based leader scaling.


Why do you assume that no one knew how to play. We were on voice chat and all were frustrated but it's not a lack of experience or skill.
Cmon ...


Yes I understand exactly how battle levelin works. Read what you wrote and then realize what I'm writing and have written.
When everyone doesn't have blue or purple items with enchants in each slot...you can scale to Vr18....it's still not going to help. CPs or not, excluding a brand new player which some that left I'm sure are...but those who talked this out and do so every time aren't noobs to ESO or MMoRPGs.



Do yourself a favor. IF you're on Xbox one or PS4.
Roll a level 10-12. Go queue and do a dungeon where all are level 30 or lower. Record 10-15 minutes and link it where no one is in sets or crafted or blue and purples twinkled out.

Gah. Why do I feel like a bloody broken record here?

Scaling DOES NOT MATTER.

A Lv10 in Lv10 Spindle will have the exact same difficulties as a Lv10, scaled to VR15, in VR16-scaled Spindle.

My level 8 example was that having the dungeon scaled at level 10 didn't magically make things easier for those other players who were struggling. Just like having the players and dungeon all scale up to VR16 won't magically make things harder.

None of the complaints that you have--about skills, passive, etc.--are problems caused by scaling or are problems that can be fixed by changes to scaling. Period.

Why do you sound like a broken record...cause u continue to argue your own thoughts vs applying logic to the topic of discussion and suggestion. As your argument...it comes off that you're saying that the relation of dungeon NPCs from level X of any dungeon at its lowest level is in direct and accurate proportion to the VR16 NPCs. That's not what this is about nor the issue ultimately.

As you've shared you do understand how the scaling of player character applies so I'll assume you also understand how the NPC scaling applies. As such you understand that those are independent of one another. There isn't a correlation of NPC scaling to the actual players.

THATs the PROBLeM

That problem is resolved by scaling the dungeon to the characters in it because that is using the correlation of the players and not NPCs alone vs players alone.

Players may join with some or even no armor pieces where some may be white, green or blue...and in rare cases unless crafted or later levels...purple and yellow gear. When the ZOS VR16 scaling applies to players alone...it scales based on what you have and its level compared to your level. By result the players aren't compared to the NPCs so what ends up occurring is the scaling does not offer a realistic chance for players in some greens and no other slots or just in greens and blue but where some aren't close to the players level.

Understand that I'm not inexperienced and this idea does actually offset the current problem. It comes off that you're not of an experience of playing with people who may not be fully equipped or geared at level...often times these players also want the similar option to complete a dungeon like a well geared group.

Regardless of player experiences, scaling is brutal

For example when I first got VR 16 my character had on crafted set gear of Vr12-14. Mostly VR14 but the scaling actually placed the level 45, Vr2 and VR6 with higher stats in all categories specific to their roles compared to me. Sadly tho, we couldn't progress in Spindle because stats don't mean much if the NPCs are still more powerful than you all cause the players aren't wearing better gear and food buffs etc.

Keeping the dungeons in relation to the players actually allows players to self improve and have a chance more than how the current grouping tool scaling applies.

w00t? Nobody needs purple equip to do a normal dungeon on VR16. With golden equip and experience some can even solo some of them. Sorry, but a group of 4 level 10 players with at least all equipment slots covered (and that is possible at level 10) can do the V16 scaled normal dungeons when battle-leveled. I am not saying that you are going to rush through it in 10 minutes, but it is doable.

NewBlacksmurf

Yes, the max level should be based on the highest person in the group and not VR16

DschiPeunt wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

You're entitled to your opinions but in actual practice...a lot of your comments are just opinions and your own theories.

First off...level 10 is when you can use the grouping tools not 8

I assure you, this isn't opinion. This is me doing lots of dungeons, on lowbies and on my VRs, with and without LFG. Also, my level 8 did Spindleclutch with a random invite-the-people-standing-outside-the-dungeon group (no LFG). And, yes, even with Spindle scaled to level 10, my level 8 with no CP was carrying the group with people level 10-14 because things like player experience is far, far more important than raw stats or levels, which is why newbie players will struggle whether they're doing it scaled VR16 or doing it at level.

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

fact, is when the dungeon is set over 30+ levels higher than the highest character, the encounter is substantially harder.

Um. You do understand that you're battle-leveled, right?? Yes, the dungeon is scaled up to VR16. But you are also scaled up to VR15. Your stats, your armor, your weapons, your food, your potions--they're all scaled up too. There is no substantial difference between doing a dungeon at level and doing a dungeon at VR16, when you are battle-leveled.

Bruh!!!!!!!

You Literally just supported what I've been writing. Seriously...that's been the whole point (ref to when your lvl 8 was invited ) as the adjustments outside of the grouping tool scaling is not good or best for lower levels compared to the group based leader scaling.


Why do you assume that no one knew how to play. We were on voice chat and all were frustrated but it's not a lack of experience or skill.
Cmon ...


Yes I understand exactly how battle levelin works. Read what you wrote and then realize what I'm writing and have written.
When everyone doesn't have blue or purple items with enchants in each slot...you can scale to Vr18....it's still not going to help. CPs or not, excluding a brand new player which some that left I'm sure are...but those who talked this out and do so every time aren't noobs to ESO or MMoRPGs.



Do yourself a favor. IF you're on Xbox one or PS4.
Roll a level 10-12. Go queue and do a dungeon where all are level 30 or lower. Record 10-15 minutes and link it where no one is in sets or crafted or blue and purples twinkled out.

Gah. Why do I feel like a bloody broken record here?

Scaling DOES NOT MATTER.

A Lv10 in Lv10 Spindle will have the exact same difficulties as a Lv10, scaled to VR15, in VR16-scaled Spindle.

My level 8 example was that having the dungeon scaled at level 10 didn't magically make things easier for those other players who were struggling. Just like having the players and dungeon all scale up to VR16 won't magically make things harder.

None of the complaints that you have--about skills, passive, etc.--are problems caused by scaling or are problems that can be fixed by changes to scaling. Period.

Why do you sound like a broken record...cause u continue to argue your own thoughts vs applying logic to the topic of discussion and suggestion. As your argument...it comes off that you're saying that the relation of dungeon NPCs from level X of any dungeon at its lowest level is in direct and accurate proportion to the VR16 NPCs. That's not what this is about nor the issue ultimately.

As you've shared you do understand how the scaling of player character applies so I'll assume you also understand how the NPC scaling applies. As such you understand that those are independent of one another. There isn't a correlation of NPC scaling to the actual players.

THATs the PROBLeM

That problem is resolved by scaling the dungeon to the characters in it because that is using the correlation of the players and not NPCs alone vs players alone.

Players may join with some or even no armor pieces where some may be white, green or blue...and in rare cases unless crafted or later levels...purple and yellow gear. When the ZOS VR16 scaling applies to players alone...it scales based on what you have and its level compared to your level. By result the players aren't compared to the NPCs so what ends up occurring is the scaling does not offer a realistic chance for players in some greens and no other slots or just in greens and blue but where some aren't close to the players level.

Understand that I'm not inexperienced and this idea does actually offset the current problem. It comes off that you're not of an experience of playing with people who may not be fully equipped or geared at level...often times these players also want the similar option to complete a dungeon like a well geared group.

Regardless of player experiences, scaling is brutal

For example when I first got VR 16 my character had on crafted set gear of Vr12-14. Mostly VR14 but the scaling actually placed the level 45, Vr2 and VR6 with higher stats in all categories specific to their roles compared to me. Sadly tho, we couldn't progress in Spindle because stats don't mean much if the NPCs are still more powerful than you all cause the players aren't wearing better gear and food buffs etc.

Keeping the dungeons in relation to the players actually allows players to self improve and have a chance more than how the current grouping tool scaling applies.

w00t? Nobody needs purple equip to do a normal dungeon on VR16. With golden equip and experience some can even solo some of them. Sorry, but a group of 4 level 10 players with at least all equipment slots covered (and that is possible at level 10) can do the V16 scaled normal dungeons when battle-leveled. I am not saying that you are going to rush through it in 10 minutes, but it is doable.

The problem tho is many and I mean many players do not have all slots with at least greens which offer some stat to scale.

So the further you go up, the more brutal the encounter become.


What's 0 X 0.....any way you look at it, it's 0.
Now as those 0 continues the Scaling of nothing and then add in limited skills or no skills compared to a VR....it's a big difference.

You're also identifying the problem I'm after which is softened by using the players levels

code65536

No, the scaling to VR16 is a better system

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Players may join with some or even no armor pieces where some may be white, green or blue...and in rare cases unless crafted or later levels...purple and yellow gear. When the ZOS VR16 scaling applies to players alone...it scales based on what you have and its level compared to your level. By result the players aren't compared to the NPCs so what ends up occurring is the scaling does not offer a realistic chance for players in some greens and no other slots or just in greens and blue but where some aren't close to the players level.

So? A level 30 in white level 20 gear will have problems in a battle-leveled VR16 dungeon because that level 20 gear won't fully scale up. But he'll have the exact same problems in a level 30 dungeon because that gear is 10 levels underleveled. It's the same problem.

It comes off that you're not of an experience of playing with people who may not be fully equipped or geared at level...often times these players also want the similar option to complete a dungeon like a well geared group.

I do, and I often end up carrying groups through. As I recounted earlier, I've encountered a wide variety of people in Group Finder groups. Including once when a Lv13 outperformed a VR3. Including multiple times when I did more DPS as the tank than the rest of the group combined. More than once, I've been in a Group Finder group that very likely would've failed if I wasn't there to carry it. None of this has any relevance to scaling. You want to talk about people who don't know how to play, or people who aren't geared properly, or people who don't know what tanks are supposed to do? Fine. These are legitimate problems that cause most Group Finder groups to fail. But none of these are problems that bear any relevance to dungeon scaling.

You've misidentified the source of the problem and are proposing a "solution" that won't change anything. You've been barking up the wrong tree this entire time.

NewBlacksmurf

Yes, the max level should be based on the highest person in the group and not VR16

code65536 wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Players may join with some or even no armor pieces where some may be white, green or blue...and in rare cases unless crafted or later levels...purple and yellow gear. When the ZOS VR16 scaling applies to players alone...it scales based on what you have and its level compared to your level. By result the players aren't compared to the NPCs so what ends up occurring is the scaling does not offer a realistic chance for players in some greens and no other slots or just in greens and blue but where some aren't close to the players level.

So? A level 30 in white level 20 gear will have problems in a battle-leveled VR16 dungeon because that level 20 gear won't fully scale up. But he'll have the exact same problems in a level 30 dungeon because that gear is 10 levels underleveled. It's the same problem.

It comes off that you're not of an experience of playing with people who may not be fully equipped or geared at level...often times these players also want the similar option to complete a dungeon like a well geared group.

I do, and I often end up carrying groups through. As I recounted earlier, I've encountered a wide variety of people in Group Finder groups. Including once when a Lv13 outperformed a VR3. Including multiple times when I did more DPS as the tank than the rest of the group combined. More than once, I've been in a Group Finder group that very likely would've failed if I wasn't there to carry it. None of this has any relevance to scaling. You want to talk about people who don't know how to play, or people who aren't geared properly, or people who don't know what tanks are supposed to do? Fine. These are legitimate problems that cause most Group Finder groups to fail. But none of these are problems that bear any relevance to dungeon scaling.

You've misidentified the source of the problem and are proposing a "solution" that won't change anything. You've been barking up the wrong tree this entire time.

I hear you're theories but please put them into practice before arguing them.

I argued your same theories a month or so ago and was challenged to put them into practice.

Guess what...

I was wrong.

Roll a character and only use what you can make via what you've found.
I actually used CPs but realize others don't have them if they are lacking a main VR.

The scaling and dungeon finder system has to work not just for me and you with VRs and experience, 8 trait or greater crafting and 250+ CPs.

This system does not offer fair opportunities as compared to the manual grouping dungeons.....perhaps you will test this as well as you seem to have a long background like me and can possible better articulate what I'm attempting to suggest in some other ways.

Perhaps my suggestion isn't the best...so I'm inviting and challenging you to play...think and come up with a batter one. One thing is for certain. The dungeon finder system is not best to offer ALL players the opportunity to complete dungeons.

Even back during closed beta when the game was hella harder. The progression of a character made each dungeon easier. That isn't how this system works and for some, it gets harder and harder until crafting vr16 top gear with top enchants and food.

Real experience proves this to be accurate

DschiPeunt

No, the scaling to VR16 is a better system

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Players may join with some or even no armor pieces where some may be white, green or blue...and in rare cases unless crafted or later levels...purple and yellow gear. When the ZOS VR16 scaling applies to players alone...it scales based on what you have and its level compared to your level. By result the players aren't compared to the NPCs so what ends up occurring is the scaling does not offer a realistic chance for players in some greens and no other slots or just in greens and blue but where some aren't close to the players level.

So? A level 30 in white level 20 gear will have problems in a battle-leveled VR16 dungeon because that level 20 gear won't fully scale up. But he'll have the exact same problems in a level 30 dungeon because that gear is 10 levels underleveled. It's the same problem.

It comes off that you're not of an experience of playing with people who may not be fully equipped or geared at level...often times these players also want the similar option to complete a dungeon like a well geared group.

I do, and I often end up carrying groups through. As I recounted earlier, I've encountered a wide variety of people in Group Finder groups. Including once when a Lv13 outperformed a VR3. Including multiple times when I did more DPS as the tank than the rest of the group combined. More than once, I've been in a Group Finder group that very likely would've failed if I wasn't there to carry it. None of this has any relevance to scaling. You want to talk about people who don't know how to play, or people who aren't geared properly, or people who don't know what tanks are supposed to do? Fine. These are legitimate problems that cause most Group Finder groups to fail. But none of these are problems that bear any relevance to dungeon scaling.

You've misidentified the source of the problem and are proposing a "solution" that won't change anything. You've been barking up the wrong tree this entire time.

I hear you're theories but please put them into practice before arguing them.

I argued your same theories a month or so ago and was challenged to put them into practice.

Guess what...

I was wrong.

Roll a character and only use what you can make via what you've found.
I actually used CPs but realize others don't have them if they are lacking a main VR.

The scaling and dungeon finder system has to work not just for me and you with VRs and experience, 8 trait or greater crafting and 250+ CPs.

This system does not offer fair opportunities as compared to the manual grouping dungeons.....perhaps you will test this as well as you seem to have a long background like me and can possible better articulate what I'm attempting to suggest in some other ways.

To me it seems like you want level 10 players, who have just started the game, to run a dungeon as fast as VR16 players, with full max equip, 501 CP and tons of experience. That is not going to happen.
And: even if the scaling to V16 makes the dungeon harder for the level 10 players, it is still not undoable or really hard.
It seems completely reasonable to me, that a player who has just started the game and has no clue, what a rotation is and what gear he should use, can not just cakewalk through the beginner dungeons. These dungeons and group situations should get the people to think about, how they get better and what they might do wrong.

Oh and before you come up with experience and stuff: I use the group finder every few nights and just do a random dungeons with some people.
Last thursday the group finder grouped me up with a lvl 12, a lvl 22 and a lvl vr3 for FG, but they really wanted to do spindle, since they just did FG. So we regrouped and they asked me to invite them, because they wanted to do it on VR16, so it is as hard as possible. Apparently they didn't understood that they were battle-leveled before. So I did and they died and died. After explanation of the scaling system, they asked me, if we could still do that dungeon. So, I agreed and we managed to complete it. Of course I did 95% of the work. Nevertheless, they enjoyed the run and liked, how hard it was for them to even stay alive.

NewBlacksmurf

Yes, the max level should be based on the highest person in the group and not VR16

DschiPeunt wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Players may join with some or even no armor pieces where some may be white, green or blue...and in rare cases unless crafted or later levels...purple and yellow gear. When the ZOS VR16 scaling applies to players alone...it scales based on what you have and its level compared to your level. By result the players aren't compared to the NPCs so what ends up occurring is the scaling does not offer a realistic chance for players in some greens and no other slots or just in greens and blue but where some aren't close to the players level.

So? A level 30 in white level 20 gear will have problems in a battle-leveled VR16 dungeon because that level 20 gear won't fully scale up. But he'll have the exact same problems in a level 30 dungeon because that gear is 10 levels underleveled. It's the same problem.

It comes off that you're not of an experience of playing with people who may not be fully equipped or geared at level...often times these players also want the similar option to complete a dungeon like a well geared group.

I do, and I often end up carrying groups through. As I recounted earlier, I've encountered a wide variety of people in Group Finder groups. Including once when a Lv13 outperformed a VR3. Including multiple times when I did more DPS as the tank than the rest of the group combined. More than once, I've been in a Group Finder group that very likely would've failed if I wasn't there to carry it. None of this has any relevance to scaling. You want to talk about people who don't know how to play, or people who aren't geared properly, or people who don't know what tanks are supposed to do? Fine. These are legitimate problems that cause most Group Finder groups to fail. But none of these are problems that bear any relevance to dungeon scaling.

You've misidentified the source of the problem and are proposing a "solution" that won't change anything. You've been barking up the wrong tree this entire time.

I hear you're theories but please put them into practice before arguing them.

I argued your same theories a month or so ago and was challenged to put them into practice.

Guess what...

I was wrong.

Roll a character and only use what you can make via what you've found.
I actually used CPs but realize others don't have them if they are lacking a main VR.

The scaling and dungeon finder system has to work not just for me and you with VRs and experience, 8 trait or greater crafting and 250+ CPs.

This system does not offer fair opportunities as compared to the manual grouping dungeons.....perhaps you will test this as well as you seem to have a long background like me and can possible better articulate what I'm attempting to suggest in some other ways.

To me it seems like you want level 10 players, who have just started the game, to run a dungeon as fast as VR16 players, with full max equip, 501 CP and tons of experience. That is not going to happen.
And: even if the scaling to V16 makes the dungeon harder for the level 10 players, it is still not undoable or really hard.
It seems completely reasonable to me, that a player who has just started the game and has no clue, what a rotation is and what gear he should use, can not just cakewalk through the beginner dungeons. These dungeons and group situations should get the people to think about, how they get better and what they might do wrong.

That's not the goal...consider in my earlier comments. Comparing dungeon finder group to a manual group.

The way the game is setup in the manual scaling, if offered me and the group 4 different times with completely random ppl, the chance to complete.

Also realize that if that many ppl are standing outside of earlier dungeons...perhaps...they too had similar experiences.
It's not a suggestion where any and everyone can complete a dungeon, but it is a suggest to use a similar logic in the dungeon finder system to the manual group scaling.

laksikus

No, the scaling to VR16 is a better system

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Players may join with some or even no armor pieces where some may be white, green or blue...and in rare cases unless crafted or later levels...purple and yellow gear. When the ZOS VR16 scaling applies to players alone...it scales based on what you have and its level compared to your level. By result the players aren't compared to the NPCs so what ends up occurring is the scaling does not offer a realistic chance for players in some greens and no other slots or just in greens and blue but where some aren't close to the players level.

So? A level 30 in white level 20 gear will have problems in a battle-leveled VR16 dungeon because that level 20 gear won't fully scale up. But he'll have the exact same problems in a level 30 dungeon because that gear is 10 levels underleveled. It's the same problem.

It comes off that you're not of an experience of playing with people who may not be fully equipped or geared at level...often times these players also want the similar option to complete a dungeon like a well geared group.

I do, and I often end up carrying groups through. As I recounted earlier, I've encountered a wide variety of people in Group Finder groups. Including once when a Lv13 outperformed a VR3. Including multiple times when I did more DPS as the tank than the rest of the group combined. More than once, I've been in a Group Finder group that very likely would've failed if I wasn't there to carry it. None of this has any relevance to scaling. You want to talk about people who don't know how to play, or people who aren't geared properly, or people who don't know what tanks are supposed to do? Fine. These are legitimate problems that cause most Group Finder groups to fail. But none of these are problems that bear any relevance to dungeon scaling.

You've misidentified the source of the problem and are proposing a "solution" that won't change anything. You've been barking up the wrong tree this entire time.

I hear you're theories but please put them into practice before arguing them.

I argued your same theories a month or so ago and was challenged to put them into practice.

Guess what...

I was wrong.

Roll a character and only use what you can make via what you've found.
I actually used CPs but realize others don't have them if they are lacking a main VR.

The scaling and dungeon finder system has to work not just for me and you with VRs and experience, 8 trait or greater crafting and 250+ CPs.

This system does not offer fair opportunities as compared to the manual grouping dungeons.....perhaps you will test this as well as you seem to have a long background like me and can possible better articulate what I'm attempting to suggest in some other ways.

Perhaps my suggestion isn't the best...so I'm inviting and challenging you to play...think and come up with a batter one. One thing is for certain. The dungeon finder system is not best to offer ALL players the opportunity to complete dungeons.

Even back during closed beta when the game was hella harder. The progression of a character made each dungeon easier. That isn't how this system works and for some, it gets harder and harder until crafting vr16 top gear with top enchants and food.

Real experience proves this to be accurate

your real experience is wrong.
I have several chars on nonvet and i did most dungeons at min level same as at v16.
gear doesnt rly matter in silver anyway as long as you wear 7p not too much underlevel

As lvl 10 you will struggle if you dont wear 7p armor, no matter what. If you are underleveled with your gear too.
that doesnt get more difficult if you scale to v16 or lvl 30. ITS THE SAME

at least 3 different people tried to tell you that now, and you just ignore us.

battle leveling actually scales all lvl 10-v14 chars on the same level. IT doesnt matter if all scale to v16 or lvl 30 or even v13337. Players and enemies scale the same so it will be the totally same difficulty no matter how much you scale all of them at the same level.

code65536

No, the scaling to VR16 is a better system

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

DschiPeunt wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Players may join with some or even no armor pieces where some may be white, green or blue...and in rare cases unless crafted or later levels...purple and yellow gear. When the ZOS VR16 scaling applies to players alone...it scales based on what you have and its level compared to your level. By result the players aren't compared to the NPCs so what ends up occurring is the scaling does not offer a realistic chance for players in some greens and no other slots or just in greens and blue but where some aren't close to the players level.

So? A level 30 in white level 20 gear will have problems in a battle-leveled VR16 dungeon because that level 20 gear won't fully scale up. But he'll have the exact same problems in a level 30 dungeon because that gear is 10 levels underleveled. It's the same problem.

It comes off that you're not of an experience of playing with people who may not be fully equipped or geared at level...often times these players also want the similar option to complete a dungeon like a well geared group.

I do, and I often end up carrying groups through. As I recounted earlier, I've encountered a wide variety of people in Group Finder groups. Including once when a Lv13 outperformed a VR3. Including multiple times when I did more DPS as the tank than the rest of the group combined. More than once, I've been in a Group Finder group that very likely would've failed if I wasn't there to carry it. None of this has any relevance to scaling. You want to talk about people who don't know how to play, or people who aren't geared properly, or people who don't know what tanks are supposed to do? Fine. These are legitimate problems that cause most Group Finder groups to fail. But none of these are problems that bear any relevance to dungeon scaling.

You've misidentified the source of the problem and are proposing a "solution" that won't change anything. You've been barking up the wrong tree this entire time.

I hear you're theories but please put them into practice before arguing them.

I argued your same theories a month or so ago and was challenged to put them into practice.

Guess what...

I was wrong.

Roll a character and only use what you can make via what you've found.
I actually used CPs but realize others don't have them if they are lacking a main VR.

The scaling and dungeon finder system has to work not just for me and you with VRs and experience, 8 trait or greater crafting and 250+ CPs.

This system does not offer fair opportunities as compared to the manual grouping dungeons.....perhaps you will test this as well as you seem to have a long background like me and can possible better articulate what I'm attempting to suggest in some other ways.

To me it seems like you want level 10 players, who have just started the game, to run a dungeon as fast as VR16 players, with full max equip, 501 CP and tons of experience. That is not going to happen.
And: even if the scaling to V16 makes the dungeon harder for the level 10 players, it is still not undoable or really hard.
It seems completely reasonable to me, that a player who has just started the game and has no clue, what a rotation is and what gear he should use, can not just cakewalk through the beginner dungeons. These dungeons and group situations should get the people to think about, how they get better and what they might do wrong.

That's not the goal...consider in my earlier comments. Comparing dungeon finder group to a manual group.

The way the game is setup in the manual scaling, if offered me and the group 4 different times with completely random ppl, the chance to complete.

Also realize that if that many ppl are standing outside of earlier dungeons...perhaps...they too had similar experiences.
It's not a suggestion where any and everyone can complete a dungeon, but it is a suggest to use a similar logic in the dungeon finder system to the manual group scaling.

It was dark outside when I completed that dungeon. Therefore, I should only do dungeons at night.

1) Unless your manual group has everyone at the exact same level (four level 10's, for example), then you are not doing it at level, and there will be people who are under- or overleveled. Overleveled players (e.g., a level 30 in a level 15 dungeon) can make a huge difference. Manual grouping is comparable only if everyone is at or near the same level.

2) Random groups are... well, random. I've had awesome Group Finder groups (my very first vWGT speed run was with a random Group Finder group) and Group Finder groups where the VR16 "DPS" was just light-attacking with a bow and doing about 1-3K DPS according to GroupDamage. You could've gotten a bad group with Group Finder and then blamed it on the scaling when it was because of other problems in the group.


Get a group of four people. Exact same level. Do a dungeon at level. Then have those same four people group up via Group Finder and try the dungeon with battle-leveling. You need to stop comparing apples with oranges.

DschiPeunt

No, the scaling to VR16 is a better system

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

DschiPeunt wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Players may join with some or even no armor pieces where some may be white, green or blue...and in rare cases unless crafted or later levels...purple and yellow gear. When the ZOS VR16 scaling applies to players alone...it scales based on what you have and its level compared to your level. By result the players aren't compared to the NPCs so what ends up occurring is the scaling does not offer a realistic chance for players in some greens and no other slots or just in greens and blue but where some aren't close to the players level.

So? A level 30 in white level 20 gear will have problems in a battle-leveled VR16 dungeon because that level 20 gear won't fully scale up. But he'll have the exact same problems in a level 30 dungeon because that gear is 10 levels underleveled. It's the same problem.

It comes off that you're not of an experience of playing with people who may not be fully equipped or geared at level...often times these players also want the similar option to complete a dungeon like a well geared group.

I do, and I often end up carrying groups through. As I recounted earlier, I've encountered a wide variety of people in Group Finder groups. Including once when a Lv13 outperformed a VR3. Including multiple times when I did more DPS as the tank than the rest of the group combined. More than once, I've been in a Group Finder group that very likely would've failed if I wasn't there to carry it. None of this has any relevance to scaling. You want to talk about people who don't know how to play, or people who aren't geared properly, or people who don't know what tanks are supposed to do? Fine. These are legitimate problems that cause most Group Finder groups to fail. But none of these are problems that bear any relevance to dungeon scaling.

You've misidentified the source of the problem and are proposing a "solution" that won't change anything. You've been barking up the wrong tree this entire time.

I hear you're theories but please put them into practice before arguing them.

I argued your same theories a month or so ago and was challenged to put them into practice.

Guess what...

I was wrong.

Roll a character and only use what you can make via what you've found.
I actually used CPs but realize others don't have them if they are lacking a main VR.

The scaling and dungeon finder system has to work not just for me and you with VRs and experience, 8 trait or greater crafting and 250+ CPs.

This system does not offer fair opportunities as compared to the manual grouping dungeons.....perhaps you will test this as well as you seem to have a long background like me and can possible better articulate what I'm attempting to suggest in some other ways.

To me it seems like you want level 10 players, who have just started the game, to run a dungeon as fast as VR16 players, with full max equip, 501 CP and tons of experience. That is not going to happen.
And: even if the scaling to V16 makes the dungeon harder for the level 10 players, it is still not undoable or really hard.
It seems completely reasonable to me, that a player who has just started the game and has no clue, what a rotation is and what gear he should use, can not just cakewalk through the beginner dungeons. These dungeons and group situations should get the people to think about, how they get better and what they might do wrong.

That's not the goal...consider in my earlier comments. Comparing dungeon finder group to a manual group.

The way the game is setup in the manual scaling, if offered me and the group 4 different times with completely random ppl, the chance to complete.

Also realize that if that many ppl are standing outside of earlier dungeons...perhaps...they too had similar experiences.
It's not a suggestion where any and everyone can complete a dungeon, but it is a suggest to use a similar logic in the dungeon finder system to the manual group scaling.

So, whats the deal with just regrouping manually, when people find out, that they can not complete the VR16 scaled version?

And as others have pointed out at the beginning of this thread: This would require a formula to scale any level to any other level, instead of just scaling everyone to max level. Also it brings up the question of loot scaling. Since you are saying, that level-10-scaled dungeons are easier than VR16-scaled dungeons, then everyone could just grab a lower level guildie to grind for stuff. So I could get a VR16 Molag Kena helmet in a VR1 scaled version of WGT. This brings up soooo many issues to fix something, that isn't even a problem in my experience.

NewBlacksmurf

Yes, the max level should be based on the highest person in the group and not VR16

laksikus wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Players may join with some or even no armor pieces where some may be white, green or blue...and in rare cases unless crafted or later levels...purple and yellow gear. When the ZOS VR16 scaling applies to players alone...it scales based on what you have and its level compared to your level. By result the players aren't compared to the NPCs so what ends up occurring is the scaling does not offer a realistic chance for players in some greens and no other slots or just in greens and blue but where some aren't close to the players level.

So? A level 30 in white level 20 gear will have problems in a battle-leveled VR16 dungeon because that level 20 gear won't fully scale up. But he'll have the exact same problems in a level 30 dungeon because that gear is 10 levels underleveled. It's the same problem.

It comes off that you're not of an experience of playing with people who may not be fully equipped or geared at level...often times these players also want the similar option to complete a dungeon like a well geared group.

I do, and I often end up carrying groups through. As I recounted earlier, I've encountered a wide variety of people in Group Finder groups. Including once when a Lv13 outperformed a VR3. Including multiple times when I did more DPS as the tank than the rest of the group combined. More than once, I've been in a Group Finder group that very likely would've failed if I wasn't there to carry it. None of this has any relevance to scaling. You want to talk about people who don't know how to play, or people who aren't geared properly, or people who don't know what tanks are supposed to do? Fine. These are legitimate problems that cause most Group Finder groups to fail. But none of these are problems that bear any relevance to dungeon scaling.

You've misidentified the source of the problem and are proposing a "solution" that won't change anything. You've been barking up the wrong tree this entire time.

I hear you're theories but please put them into practice before arguing them.

I argued your same theories a month or so ago and was challenged to put them into practice.

Guess what...

I was wrong.

Roll a character and only use what you can make via what you've found.
I actually used CPs but realize others don't have them if they are lacking a main VR.

The scaling and dungeon finder system has to work not just for me and you with VRs and experience, 8 trait or greater crafting and 250+ CPs.

This system does not offer fair opportunities as compared to the manual grouping dungeons.....perhaps you will test this as well as you seem to have a long background like me and can possible better articulate what I'm attempting to suggest in some other ways.

Perhaps my suggestion isn't the best...so I'm inviting and challenging you to play...think and come up with a batter one. One thing is for certain. The dungeon finder system is not best to offer ALL players the opportunity to complete dungeons.

Even back during closed beta when the game was hella harder. The progression of a character made each dungeon easier. That isn't how this system works and for some, it gets harder and harder until crafting vr16 top gear with top enchants and food.

Real experience proves this to be accurate

your real experience is wrong.
I have several chars on nonvet and i did most dungeons at min level same as at v16.
gear doesnt rly matter in silver anyway as long as you wear 7p not too much underlevel

As lvl 10 you will struggle if you dont wear 7p armor, no matter what. If you are underleveled with your gear too.
that doesnt get more difficult if you scale to v16 or lvl 30. ITS THE SAME

at least 3 different people tried to tell you that now, and you just ignore us.

battle leveling actually scales all lvl 10-v14 chars on the same level. IT doesnt matter if all scale to v16 or lvl 30 or even v13337. Players and enemies scale the same so it will be the totally same difficulty no matter how much you scale all of them at the same level.

Through actual experiences.
Go roll a new character to lvl 10.


Yes I'm ignoring anyone who is not using actual knowledge. The game literally is VERY unforgiving in the group finder vs the same dungeon done manually with the same ppl.

Sorry if you feel that I'm being rediculous but by experience I didn't create this thread because I had a theory. I created it because I was like you and others in an older thread.
Went and tried it...now on my third character testing this...diff class and faction...guess what. Unless I craft a full set of green or blue gear I noticed a drastic difference in my characters.

Then working through encounters and talking to others....I was wrong, it's not comparable, not better than the manual grouping. As such it's why many form groups via guilds and standing in towns or outside dungeons.

It's drastically different. Manual grouping by experience and by design is easier even if it's all VR16's and not scaled.
Why won't you all go try it first vs arguing?

There are a few threads along the lines of this...often times beat down by "experienced" or "elitism" but lacking actual logical understanding of the other perspectives. This system, while good for finding others, isn't better or a positive system by comparison to the manual scaling.

The original system was best but ZOS couldn't figure out how to resolve the group finder after applying the first changes to VR12-14. Then scaling made it even worse to where it just didn't work. Now you have a system that only works for some but not realistic for others.

Isn't the point of the group finder to group players to DO a DUNGEON?
It's not to group people to QUIT a DUNGEON over and over again.


Real question....do you use the group finder for VET dailies or do you manually group?

NewBlacksmurf

Yes, the max level should be based on the highest person in the group and not VR16

DschiPeunt wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

DschiPeunt wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Players may join with some or even no armor pieces where some may be white, green or blue...and in rare cases unless crafted or later levels...purple and yellow gear. When the ZOS VR16 scaling applies to players alone...it scales based on what you have and its level compared to your level. By result the players aren't compared to the NPCs so what ends up occurring is the scaling does not offer a realistic chance for players in some greens and no other slots or just in greens and blue but where some aren't close to the players level.

So? A level 30 in white level 20 gear will have problems in a battle-leveled VR16 dungeon because that level 20 gear won't fully scale up. But he'll have the exact same problems in a level 30 dungeon because that gear is 10 levels underleveled. It's the same problem.

It comes off that you're not of an experience of playing with people who may not be fully equipped or geared at level...often times these players also want the similar option to complete a dungeon like a well geared group.

I do, and I often end up carrying groups through. As I recounted earlier, I've encountered a wide variety of people in Group Finder groups. Including once when a Lv13 outperformed a VR3. Including multiple times when I did more DPS as the tank than the rest of the group combined. More than once, I've been in a Group Finder group that very likely would've failed if I wasn't there to carry it. None of this has any relevance to scaling. You want to talk about people who don't know how to play, or people who aren't geared properly, or people who don't know what tanks are supposed to do? Fine. These are legitimate problems that cause most Group Finder groups to fail. But none of these are problems that bear any relevance to dungeon scaling.

You've misidentified the source of the problem and are proposing a "solution" that won't change anything. You've been barking up the wrong tree this entire time.

I hear you're theories but please put them into practice before arguing them.

I argued your same theories a month or so ago and was challenged to put them into practice.

Guess what...

I was wrong.

Roll a character and only use what you can make via what you've found.
I actually used CPs but realize others don't have them if they are lacking a main VR.

The scaling and dungeon finder system has to work not just for me and you with VRs and experience, 8 trait or greater crafting and 250+ CPs.

This system does not offer fair opportunities as compared to the manual grouping dungeons.....perhaps you will test this as well as you seem to have a long background like me and can possible better articulate what I'm attempting to suggest in some other ways.

To me it seems like you want level 10 players, who have just started the game, to run a dungeon as fast as VR16 players, with full max equip, 501 CP and tons of experience. That is not going to happen.
And: even if the scaling to V16 makes the dungeon harder for the level 10 players, it is still not undoable or really hard.
It seems completely reasonable to me, that a player who has just started the game and has no clue, what a rotation is and what gear he should use, can not just cakewalk through the beginner dungeons. These dungeons and group situations should get the people to think about, how they get better and what they might do wrong.

That's not the goal...consider in my earlier comments. Comparing dungeon finder group to a manual group.

The way the game is setup in the manual scaling, if offered me and the group 4 different times with completely random ppl, the chance to complete.

Also realize that if that many ppl are standing outside of earlier dungeons...perhaps...they too had similar experiences.
It's not a suggestion where any and everyone can complete a dungeon, but it is a suggest to use a similar logic in the dungeon finder system to the manual group scaling.

So, whats the deal with just regrouping manually, when people find out, that they can not complete the VR16 scaled version?

And as others have pointed out at the beginning of this thread: This would require a formula to scale any level to any other level, instead of just scaling everyone to max level. Also it brings up the question of loot scaling. Since you are saying, that level-10-scaled dungeons are easier than VR16-scaled dungeons, then everyone could just grab a lower level guildie to grind for stuff. So I could get a VR16 Molag Kena helmet in a VR1 scaled version of WGT. This brings up soooo many issues to fix something, that isn't even a problem in my experience.

The formula already exists.

When ppl form a group manually the NPCs AND the other players are scaled off the player group leader.

That's a basic explanation.

If you want to go into it all...dungeon finder groups are not scaled off any players. ZOS has set a VR16 scale for the NPCs
The ZOS attempts to use that system with another equation to scale each player character.

Similarities apply for some player characters who are below the NPCs but realize even if all are below the NPCs, the group leader is the catalyst in manual groups where in group finder groups...ZOS has created the catalyst.

To me that's the problem because when the catalyst is the player....the problems don't exist.
Are there player who still cannot complete normal dungeons scaled manually in player groups...absolutely.
But now it's an option to choose a different leader and reset the dungeon even if the other character(s) is the same level.

It makes a difference and in my experiences, it's not as extreme as group finder groups.
It is, what it is but in practice...it's different based on how the calculations are done.

So as a whole...the suggestion offers players who are level 10-VR15 opportunities to experience challenges that are in within the level range of the players. Consider also, many manually formed groups are players all within 5 levels of one another so that also plays a large factor cause group finder groups as mentioned in earlier comments can sometimes be differences of over 20-30+ character levels.

When NPCs and players level difference is greater than 6 it starts to matter along with other scaling. See the dungeon finder group scaling is not making players feel and play all within 5 levels of one another. They are still seemingly different at each of their respective levels. And skills

laksikus

No, the scaling to VR16 is a better system

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

DschiPeunt wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

DschiPeunt wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Players may join with some or even no armor pieces where some may be white, green or blue...and in rare cases unless crafted or later levels...purple and yellow gear. When the ZOS VR16 scaling applies to players alone...it scales based on what you have and its level compared to your level. By result the players aren't compared to the NPCs so what ends up occurring is the scaling does not offer a realistic chance for players in some greens and no other slots or just in greens and blue but where some aren't close to the players level.

So? A level 30 in white level 20 gear will have problems in a battle-leveled VR16 dungeon because that level 20 gear won't fully scale up. But he'll have the exact same problems in a level 30 dungeon because that gear is 10 levels underleveled. It's the same problem.

It comes off that you're not of an experience of playing with people who may not be fully equipped or geared at level...often times these players also want the similar option to complete a dungeon like a well geared group.

I do, and I often end up carrying groups through. As I recounted earlier, I've encountered a wide variety of people in Group Finder groups. Including once when a Lv13 outperformed a VR3. Including multiple times when I did more DPS as the tank than the rest of the group combined. More than once, I've been in a Group Finder group that very likely would've failed if I wasn't there to carry it. None of this has any relevance to scaling. You want to talk about people who don't know how to play, or people who aren't geared properly, or people who don't know what tanks are supposed to do? Fine. These are legitimate problems that cause most Group Finder groups to fail. But none of these are problems that bear any relevance to dungeon scaling.

You've misidentified the source of the problem and are proposing a "solution" that won't change anything. You've been barking up the wrong tree this entire time.

I hear you're theories but please put them into practice before arguing them.

I argued your same theories a month or so ago and was challenged to put them into practice.

Guess what...

I was wrong.

Roll a character and only use what you can make via what you've found.
I actually used CPs but realize others don't have them if they are lacking a main VR.

The scaling and dungeon finder system has to work not just for me and you with VRs and experience, 8 trait or greater crafting and 250+ CPs.

This system does not offer fair opportunities as compared to the manual grouping dungeons.....perhaps you will test this as well as you seem to have a long background like me and can possible better articulate what I'm attempting to suggest in some other ways.

To me it seems like you want level 10 players, who have just started the game, to run a dungeon as fast as VR16 players, with full max equip, 501 CP and tons of experience. That is not going to happen.
And: even if the scaling to V16 makes the dungeon harder for the level 10 players, it is still not undoable or really hard.
It seems completely reasonable to me, that a player who has just started the game and has no clue, what a rotation is and what gear he should use, can not just cakewalk through the beginner dungeons. These dungeons and group situations should get the people to think about, how they get better and what they might do wrong.

That's not the goal...consider in my earlier comments. Comparing dungeon finder group to a manual group.

The way the game is setup in the manual scaling, if offered me and the group 4 different times with completely random ppl, the chance to complete.

Also realize that if that many ppl are standing outside of earlier dungeons...perhaps...they too had similar experiences.
It's not a suggestion where any and everyone can complete a dungeon, but it is a suggest to use a similar logic in the dungeon finder system to the manual group scaling.

So, whats the deal with just regrouping manually, when people find out, that they can not complete the VR16 scaled version?

And as others have pointed out at the beginning of this thread: This would require a formula to scale any level to any other level, instead of just scaling everyone to max level. Also it brings up the question of loot scaling. Since you are saying, that level-10-scaled dungeons are easier than VR16-scaled dungeons, then everyone could just grab a lower level guildie to grind for stuff. So I could get a VR16 Molag Kena helmet in a VR1 scaled version of WGT. This brings up soooo many issues to fix something, that isn't even a problem in my experience.

The formula already exists.

When ppl form a group manually the NPCs AND the other players are scaled off the player group leader.

That's a basic explanation.

If you want to go into it all...dungeon finder groups are not scaled off any players. ZOS has set a VR16 scale for the NPCs
The ZOS attempts to use that system with another equation to scale each player character.

Similarities apply for some player characters who are below the NPCs but realize even if all are below the NPCs, the group leader is the catalyst in manual groups where in group finder groups...ZOS has created the catalyst.

To me that's the problem because when the catalyst is the player....the problems don't exist.
Are there player who still cannot complete normal dungeons scaled manually in player groups...absolutely.
But now it's an option to choose a different leader and reset the dungeon even if the other character(s) is the same level.

It makes a difference and in my experiences, it's not as extreme as group finder groups.
It is, what it is but in practice...it's different based on how the calculations are done.

So as a whole...the suggestion offers players who are level 10-VR15 opportunities to experience challenges that are in within the level range of the players. Consider also, many manually formed groups are players all within 5 levels of one another so that also plays a large factor cause group finder groups as mentioned in earlier comments can sometimes be differences of over 20-30+ character levels.

When NPCs and players level difference is greater than 6 it starts to matter along with other scaling. See the dungeon finder group scaling is not making players feel and play all within 5 levels of one another. They are still seemingly different at each of their respective levels. And skills

Wrong. Enemies are scaled of leader. Other Players arent. If leader is v10,then enemy are v10.
All Players play with their normal stats even if they are only v2.

And I DID spindle at lvl 10 with random gear. Only my weapon is crafted with Training at low Level. You Level up Too fast to bother crafting gear.
My stamplar is just lvl 22 and my New nb is17 i think so i can easy do it again.

NewBlacksmurf

Yes, the max level should be based on the highest person in the group and not VR16

laksikus wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

DschiPeunt wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

DschiPeunt wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Players may join with some or even no armor pieces where some may be white, green or blue...and in rare cases unless crafted or later levels...purple and yellow gear. When the ZOS VR16 scaling applies to players alone...it scales based on what you have and its level compared to your level. By result the players aren't compared to the NPCs so what ends up occurring is the scaling does not offer a realistic chance for players in some greens and no other slots or just in greens and blue but where some aren't close to the players level.

So? A level 30 in white level 20 gear will have problems in a battle-leveled VR16 dungeon because that level 20 gear won't fully scale up. But he'll have the exact same problems in a level 30 dungeon because that gear is 10 levels underleveled. It's the same problem.

It comes off that you're not of an experience of playing with people who may not be fully equipped or geared at level...often times these players also want the similar option to complete a dungeon like a well geared group.

I do, and I often end up carrying groups through. As I recounted earlier, I've encountered a wide variety of people in Group Finder groups. Including once when a Lv13 outperformed a VR3. Including multiple times when I did more DPS as the tank than the rest of the group combined. More than once, I've been in a Group Finder group that very likely would've failed if I wasn't there to carry it. None of this has any relevance to scaling. You want to talk about people who don't know how to play, or people who aren't geared properly, or people who don't know what tanks are supposed to do? Fine. These are legitimate problems that cause most Group Finder groups to fail. But none of these are problems that bear any relevance to dungeon scaling.

You've misidentified the source of the problem and are proposing a "solution" that won't change anything. You've been barking up the wrong tree this entire time.

I hear you're theories but please put them into practice before arguing them.

I argued your same theories a month or so ago and was challenged to put them into practice.

Guess what...

I was wrong.

Roll a character and only use what you can make via what you've found.
I actually used CPs but realize others don't have them if they are lacking a main VR.

The scaling and dungeon finder system has to work not just for me and you with VRs and experience, 8 trait or greater crafting and 250+ CPs.

This system does not offer fair opportunities as compared to the manual grouping dungeons.....perhaps you will test this as well as you seem to have a long background like me and can possible better articulate what I'm attempting to suggest in some other ways.

To me it seems like you want level 10 players, who have just started the game, to run a dungeon as fast as VR16 players, with full max equip, 501 CP and tons of experience. That is not going to happen.
And: even if the scaling to V16 makes the dungeon harder for the level 10 players, it is still not undoable or really hard.
It seems completely reasonable to me, that a player who has just started the game and has no clue, what a rotation is and what gear he should use, can not just cakewalk through the beginner dungeons. These dungeons and group situations should get the people to think about, how they get better and what they might do wrong.

That's not the goal...consider in my earlier comments. Comparing dungeon finder group to a manual group.

The way the game is setup in the manual scaling, if offered me and the group 4 different times with completely random ppl, the chance to complete.

Also realize that if that many ppl are standing outside of earlier dungeons...perhaps...they too had similar experiences.
It's not a suggestion where any and everyone can complete a dungeon, but it is a suggest to use a similar logic in the dungeon finder system to the manual group scaling.

So, whats the deal with just regrouping manually, when people find out, that they can not complete the VR16 scaled version?

And as others have pointed out at the beginning of this thread: This would require a formula to scale any level to any other level, instead of just scaling everyone to max level. Also it brings up the question of loot scaling. Since you are saying, that level-10-scaled dungeons are easier than VR16-scaled dungeons, then everyone could just grab a lower level guildie to grind for stuff. So I could get a VR16 Molag Kena helmet in a VR1 scaled version of WGT. This brings up soooo many issues to fix something, that isn't even a problem in my experience.

The formula already exists.

When ppl form a group manually the NPCs AND the other players are scaled off the player group leader.

That's a basic explanation.

If you want to go into it all...dungeon finder groups are not scaled off any players. ZOS has set a VR16 scale for the NPCs
The ZOS attempts to use that system with another equation to scale each player character.

Similarities apply for some player characters who are below the NPCs but realize even if all are below the NPCs, the group leader is the catalyst in manual groups where in group finder groups...ZOS has created the catalyst.

To me that's the problem because when the catalyst is the player....the problems don't exist.
Are there player who still cannot complete normal dungeons scaled manually in player groups...absolutely.
But now it's an option to choose a different leader and reset the dungeon even if the other character(s) is the same level.

It makes a difference and in my experiences, it's not as extreme as group finder groups.
It is, what it is but in practice...it's different based on how the calculations are done.

So as a whole...the suggestion offers players who are level 10-VR15 opportunities to experience challenges that are in within the level range of the players. Consider also, many manually formed groups are players all within 5 levels of one another so that also plays a large factor cause group finder groups as mentioned in earlier comments can sometimes be differences of over 20-30+ character levels.

When NPCs and players level difference is greater than 6 it starts to matter along with other scaling. See the dungeon finder group scaling is not making players feel and play all within 5 levels of one another. They are still seemingly different at each of their respective levels. And skills

Wrong. Enemies are scaled of leader. Other Players arent. If leader is v10,then enemy are v10.
All Players play with their normal stats even if they are only v2.

And I DID spindle at lvl 10 with random gear. Only my weapon is crafted with Training at low Level. You Level up Too fast to bother crafting gear.
My stamplar is just lvl 22 and my New nb is17 i think so i can easy do it again.

Why do say wrong...the calculation is there the group leader or whomever this new idea is scaled off, the other players would also be scaled off that level.

While it would work different the calculation used in a manual dungeon is done. Moving away from everything being VR16 or prob level 50 once VR is removed...and moving to setting the NPCs at the leader or whomever a level, the same calculations used for the leader, would apply to the group members but instead of Vr16 it would be let's say level 15 - 49.

That definately is a better system and solves the current issue. Now you can have ppl above the NPC level of a group chooses but other within a reasonable level range. Loot drops at chat level and all get exp and it works out

DschiPeunt

No, the scaling to VR16 is a better system

</thread>

Merkabeh

No, the scaling to VR16 is a better system

Hey, NBS, why do you enjoy being wrong so very much? This has been spelled out for you clearly and repeated ad nauseum; just give it up.

Or are you going to run the ol' console text chat strategy again? You know, the strategy where you have an incorrect idea, continue to argue it and then eat crow.

On topic, I've been leveling alts and have yet to fail spindle clutch at level 10 through group finder, scaled to V16 (a couple of times even with complete noobies using heavy armor, 2h and resto or destro staffs); am I a prodigy or something? You seem to believe that it isn't possible to do or something? Do you want me to show you how to play?

Battle leveling literally does nothing but statistically even the playing field for all players in the group; whether the content is leveled to 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 or VR16, each player will have the same skills/passives they have, their stats and the battle leveled mobs; have no bearing, only the actual values change, the ratio remains the same (actually, since battle leveling gives a bonus, the ratio is better battle leveled). Battle leveling is not the problem.

I'll close with: Yay for console text chat!

laksikus

No, the scaling to VR16 is a better system

You seem to forget something.
How do you want to downscale chars?
Lvl 30 lead, lvl 45 and v14 member?

DRXHarbinger

Learn to play noobs. I've just done ok it's easy but spindelclutch on a v4 stamblade, with a v3 healer a V16 tank and some random V16 templar who was very very confused as to what he's doing. Just chucking out synergies and not healing nor attacking. Just literally eyeballing the DK sponging. Easy got the gold key even got me a V4 imp Bloodspawn helm lol.

I get COA and IC dungeons are different but 80% of the dailies are easy enough for any idiot to smash.

Khaos_Bane

No, the scaling to VR16 is a better system

The battle scaling is fine the way it is right now. It seems someone is very confused about the mechanics of battle scaling.