@ZOS the max level on scaled dungeons should not exceed the highest leveled player in the group

NewBlacksmurf

Do you agree that the max level should follow the highest level in the group for group finder groups?

DschiPeunt

No, the scaling to VR16 is a better system

I don't see the problem here. All players get battle-leveled to VR16 and even get a buff, since the group was formed via the group finder.

Magdalina

I imagine that's harder to code(and we already know what their code looks like so I wouldn't want to take my chances with that) since instead of just scaling everyone to v16 they'll have to take max person's level into account and figure out how to scale everyone to that exact level...plus why is it max? Max level might as well be v16 paired up with some lvl 10s via groupfinder. You could try "the middle" or something, i.e. if v16 is technically lvl 66, a v16 paired with 3 lvl 10s would result in (10*3+66)/4=24 lvl dungeon with everyone scaled up/down to that, but I'm not sure that's the best solution either. Plus there's currently no downscaling in the game, which also shots the idea of "simply" scaling everyone to the groupleader.

I can somewhat see the issue with current scaling(although it only matters on low levels for new players I think), but not sure how it could be done better. Technically if you're really struggling and think your level's dungeon would be easier you could just group through zonechat.

NewBlacksmurf

Yes, the max level should be based on the highest person in the group and not VR16

Magdalina wrote: »

I imagine that's harder to code(and we already know what their code looks like so I wouldn't want to take my chances with that) since instead of just scaling everyone to v16 they'll have to take max person's level into account and figure out how to scale everyone to that exact level...plus why is it max? Max level might as well be v16 paired up with some lvl 10s via groupfinder. You could try "the middle" or something, i.e. if v16 is technically lvl 66, a v16 paired with 3 lvl 10s would result in (10*3+66)/4=24 lvl dungeon with everyone scaled up/down to that, but I'm not sure that's the best solution either. Plus there's currently no downscaling in the game, which also shots the idea of "simply" scaling everyone to the groupleader.

I can somewhat see the issue with current scaling(although it only matters on low levels for new players I think), but not sure how it could be done better. Technically if you're really struggling and think your level's dungeon would be easier you could just group through zonechat.

The coding is already complete. If 4 ppl go to a manually formed dungeon group, it's scaled off the group leader.

This should use the same rules as normal grouping

daemonios

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

I imagine that's harder to code(and we already know what their code looks like so I wouldn't want to take my chances with that) since instead of just scaling everyone to v16 they'll have to take max person's level into account and figure out how to scale everyone to that exact level...plus why is it max? Max level might as well be v16 paired up with some lvl 10s via groupfinder. You could try "the middle" or something, i.e. if v16 is technically lvl 66, a v16 paired with 3 lvl 10s would result in (10*3+66)/4=24 lvl dungeon with everyone scaled up/down to that, but I'm not sure that's the best solution either. Plus there's currently no downscaling in the game, which also shots the idea of "simply" scaling everyone to the groupleader.

I can somewhat see the issue with current scaling(although it only matters on low levels for new players I think), but not sure how it could be done better. Technically if you're really struggling and think your level's dungeon would be easier you could just group through zonechat.

The coding is already complete. If 4 ppl go to a manually formed dungeon group, it's scaled off the group leader.

This should use the same rules as normal grouping

Scaling yes. Battle leveling no. For LFG groups you need to set a level (currently vr16) AND battle-level the players. I guess battle leveling only goes straight to VR16 and it might be tricky to battle-level to other levels in between.

PKLdude

I would agree but honestly the same issues would remain it isn't sometimes so much the battle leveling but when you get a level 14 "tank" they often times don't have the skills to do the job. Plus people don't think outside the box often times and even though they are let's say dps they have no utility skills to help the group. I mean for example even though idps and tank and heal I'll have skills to make the grouping easier like crowd control skills or spot healing for myself. The tanking and healing in this game is intuitive but it isn't like other mmos, which I like, so it is limited in a fashion. I have encase and the motion to slow them down after it ends which helps immensely on my stam sorc. My magicka dk can talons for days keeping the mobs off me and the healer plus he is hybridised and can heal so if the *** hits the fan. People think only one thing, or just queue as everything further confusing and complicating things. I have sadly come to the point that if I'm the lead and not the tank or healer I will kick them if they aren't doing their role, and message saying sorry but I thought you were a tank or healer and need that and not another dps pretending.

Magdalina

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

I imagine that's harder to code(and we already know what their code looks like so I wouldn't want to take my chances with that) since instead of just scaling everyone to v16 they'll have to take max person's level into account and figure out how to scale everyone to that exact level...plus why is it max? Max level might as well be v16 paired up with some lvl 10s via groupfinder. You could try "the middle" or something, i.e. if v16 is technically lvl 66, a v16 paired with 3 lvl 10s would result in (10*3+66)/4=24 lvl dungeon with everyone scaled up/down to that, but I'm not sure that's the best solution either. Plus there's currently no downscaling in the game, which also shots the idea of "simply" scaling everyone to the groupleader.

I can somewhat see the issue with current scaling(although it only matters on low levels for new players I think), but not sure how it could be done better. Technically if you're really struggling and think your level's dungeon would be easier you could just group through zonechat.

The coding is already complete. If 4 ppl go to a manually formed dungeon group, it's scaled off the group leader.

This should use the same rules as normal grouping

But that's different. In this case the dungeon monsters scale to groupleader, the group does not. The group also doesn't get any xp nor loot if they're >5 levels above the mobs'(groupleader's) level. I imagine the latter is why groupfinder does what it does currently, and I think it is an improvement - it does have its drawbacks but at least everyone gets xp/loot.

If you mean you should have the option to simply turn groupfinder's "battle leveling" off and have the normal groupleader-scaled dungeon...that could be an option but it'd only work if you miraculously ended up grouping with people of your level. Doing v16 dungeon on a NON scaled lvl 10 ought to be very unfun.

NewBlacksmurf

Yes, the max level should be based on the highest person in the group and not VR16

Magdalina wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

I imagine that's harder to code(and we already know what their code looks like so I wouldn't want to take my chances with that) since instead of just scaling everyone to v16 they'll have to take max person's level into account and figure out how to scale everyone to that exact level...plus why is it max? Max level might as well be v16 paired up with some lvl 10s via groupfinder. You could try "the middle" or something, i.e. if v16 is technically lvl 66, a v16 paired with 3 lvl 10s would result in (10*3+66)/4=24 lvl dungeon with everyone scaled up/down to that, but I'm not sure that's the best solution either. Plus there's currently no downscaling in the game, which also shots the idea of "simply" scaling everyone to the groupleader.

I can somewhat see the issue with current scaling(although it only matters on low levels for new players I think), but not sure how it could be done better. Technically if you're really struggling and think your level's dungeon would be easier you could just group through zonechat.

The coding is already complete. If 4 ppl go to a manually formed dungeon group, it's scaled off the group leader.

This should use the same rules as normal grouping

But that's different. In this case the dungeon monsters scale to groupleader, the group does not. The group also doesn't get any xp nor loot if they're >5 levels above the mobs'(groupleader's) level. I imagine the latter is why groupfinder does what it does currently, and I think it is an improvement - it does have its drawbacks but at least everyone gets xp/loot.

If you mean you should have the option to simply turn groupfinder's "battle leveling" off and have the normal groupleader-scaled dungeon...that could be an option but it'd only work if you miraculously ended up grouping with people of your level. Doing v16 dungeon on a NON scaled lvl 10 ought to be very unfun.

No, I don't mean anything you're suggesting.

My OP suggests what I mean which is....the grouping tool dungeons should set the NPCs at a max of the highest level character in the group. Everything else would work the same.

Understand that this tool used a calculation to scale all others up to Vr16 so the same calculation can and should apply to the max character in the group.

The exp would work as is does now as well as loot.
Hell...half the time I get VR1 stuff when it's blue or purple if I'm 10-49 so again...as suggested, this is how it should change.

Also the reality that level 50 is going to be the cap soon, all normal dungeons for non vet groups shouldn't have any issues as this calculation already exists.

NewBlacksmurf

Yes, the max level should be based on the highest person in the group and not VR16

PKLdude wrote: »

I would agree but honestly the same issues would remain it isn't sometimes so much the battle leveling but when you get a level 14 "tank" they often times don't have the skills to do the job. Plus people don't think outside the box often times and even though they are let's say dps they have no utility skills to help the group. I mean for example even though idps and tank and heal I'll have skills to make the grouping easier like crowd control skills or spot healing for myself. The tanking and healing in this game is intuitive but it isn't like other mmos, which I like, so it is limited in a fashion. I have encase and the motion to slow them down after it ends which helps immensely on my stam sorc. My magicka dk can talons for days keeping the mobs off me and the healer plus he is hybridised and can heal so if the *** hits the fan. People think only one thing, or just queue as everything further confusing and complicating things. I have sadly come to the point that if I'm the lead and not the tank or healer I will kick them if they aren't doing their role, and message saying sorry but I thought you were a tank or healer and need that and not another dps pretending.

I do agree on the comments where ppl don't support others. It's harder tho when you're 30+ levels under and lacking the unlocked skills and Passives.

I see what ZOS intends but the logic used isn't best for what exists and what's changing in 90 days

code65536

No, the scaling to VR16 is a better system

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

It's harder tho when you're 30+ levels under and lacking the unlocked skills and Passives.

No, it's not.

The enemy mechanics are identical. They just have more health and hit harder. You have more health and hit harder. So what?

A level 10 scaled to VR15 doing Spindleclutch at VR16 is going to have the exact same "lacking unlocked skills and passives" problem as a level 10 doing Spindleclutch at level 10. Have you ever seen a lowbie PUG group try Spindleclutch? People around level 10 who form a group by randomly inviting people standing around the dungeon entrance (because they were sent there by the Undaunted intro quest). It's not pretty, and maybe if you've been in one of these groups, you wouldn't have these notions that somehow battle leveling is to blame.

With a fully maxed-out character with all skills and passives and BiS gear, you can solo Spindleclutch. No, you can't do that with a level 10 battle-leveled to VR15, but you're not supposed to have it that easy, and, most importantly, you can't do that with a level 10 in a level 10 Spindleclutch, either.

Also, the mechanics of what this thread suggests would be a complete mess and is unfeasible. Let's say you all port into the dungeon and someone drops out or turns out to be permanently AFK. You get a replacement who's VR16. Now what? The entire dungeon rescales?

Volkodav

Yes, the max level should be based on the highest person in the group and not VR16

I hate scaling in any other place then Orsinium.

EnemyOfDaState

Scaling never made sense to me in the first place. You should have easy dungeons,medium dungeons and hard dungeons they should have a set level if you are a vet 16 who wants to do a easy dungeon it should just give drops for the rank it is set to.

Magdalina

EnemyOfDaState wrote: »

Scaling never made sense to me in the first place. You should have easy dungeons,medium dungeons and hard dungeons they should have a set level if you are a vet 16 who wants to do a easy dungeon it should just give drops for the rank it is set to.

Well no, if you're a vet 16 who wants to do lvl 15 dungeon(I think the original Spindle level was 15 or so?) and 1shot everything including bosses, you shouldn't get any drops or xp for that.

Dungeons used to be a set level and people'd basically do them once at that level(it was even better if you missed them on that level. Forgot to do Spindle at lvl 15 and now you're level 40? Well too bad, enjoy getting 0 xp, loot and fun) and never again. I think scaling is far superior to that system even if it does have its issues.

EnemyOfDaState

Magdalina wrote: »

EnemyOfDaState wrote: »

Scaling never made sense to me in the first place. You should have easy dungeons,medium dungeons and hard dungeons they should have a set level if you are a vet 16 who wants to do a easy dungeon it should just give drops for the rank it is set to.

Well no, if you're a vet 16 who wants to do lvl 15 dungeon(I think the original Spindle level was 15 or so?) and 1shot everything including bosses, you shouldn't get any drops or xp for that.

Dungeons used to be a set level and people'd basically do them once at that level(it was even better if you missed them on that level. Forgot to do Spindle at lvl 15 and now you're level 40? Well too bad, enjoy getting 0 xp, loot and fun) and never again. I think scaling is far superior to that system even if it does have its issues.

True this game doesn't have the user base to do it like that.

NewBlacksmurf

Yes, the max level should be based on the highest person in the group and not VR16

code65536 wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

It's harder tho when you're 30+ levels under and lacking the unlocked skills and Passives.

No, it's not.

The enemy mechanics are identical. They just have more health and hit harder. You have more health and hit harder. So what?

A level 10 scaled to VR15 doing Spindleclutch at VR16 is going to have the exact same "lacking unlocked skills and passives" problem as a level 10 doing Spindleclutch at level 10. Have you ever seen a lowbie PUG group try Spindleclutch? People around level 10 who form a group by randomly inviting people standing around the dungeon entrance (because they were sent there by the Undaunted intro quest). It's not pretty, and maybe if you've been in one of these groups, you wouldn't have these notions that somehow battle leveling is to blame.

With a fully maxed-out character with all skills and passives and BiS gear, you can solo Spindleclutch. No, you can't do that with a level 10 battle-leveled to VR15, but you're not supposed to have it that easy, and, most importantly, you can't do that with a level 10 in a level 10 Spindleclutch, either.

Also, the mechanics of what this thread suggests would be a complete mess and is unfeasible. Let's say you all port into the dungeon and someone drops out or turns out to be permanently AFK. You get a replacement who's VR16. Now what? The entire dungeon rescales?

So you're saying at levels 10-35 you have the same success chance as 49-VR16?
No

If someone drops out and another joins who is VR16....
-Ppl can stay but what's now occurring lately is if there are 2 or more VR14 or higher characters, those below get kicked or the VR14+ leave right off. As suggested, this solves the problem today and the problems that will continue when VR levels are removed.

It's not about the mechanics of the dungeons at all. It's how each player will play differently based on their available actions, skills, etc. If your tank or healer is under 30, you would adjust just like if your tank or healer are VR14+

All that other stuff you comment is of no importance to this topic.
We aren't discussing problems with NPCs or difficulties, it's purely grouping concerns that result in situations where if a character is still being developed especially if all group members are under 30, certain choices by role make the dungeons impossible or highly unlikely for PUGs.


Also consider that if nothing changes, when VR is removed you end up with situations where ppl have more stats and skill points but no where to apply the skill points that create addition dps, heal or tank opportunities.

The grouping tool for pugs should be based on the group leader and scale other up to the level. Anyone above is just a big BONUS.

That's the topic and how it should work always. Let the group decide who the leader is or base it off the highest. Either works but again....ppl are playing so the 30+ level situation will either leave or get kicked. It's how ppl play

code65536

No, the scaling to VR16 is a better system

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

It's harder tho when you're 30+ levels under and lacking the unlocked skills and Passives.

No, it's not.

The enemy mechanics are identical. They just have more health and hit harder. You have more health and hit harder. So what?

A level 10 scaled to VR15 doing Spindleclutch at VR16 is going to have the exact same "lacking unlocked skills and passives" problem as a level 10 doing Spindleclutch at level 10. Have you ever seen a lowbie PUG group try Spindleclutch? People around level 10 who form a group by randomly inviting people standing around the dungeon entrance (because they were sent there by the Undaunted intro quest). It's not pretty, and maybe if you've been in one of these groups, you wouldn't have these notions that somehow battle leveling is to blame.

With a fully maxed-out character with all skills and passives and BiS gear, you can solo Spindleclutch. No, you can't do that with a level 10 battle-leveled to VR15, but you're not supposed to have it that easy, and, most importantly, you can't do that with a level 10 in a level 10 Spindleclutch, either.

Also, the mechanics of what this thread suggests would be a complete mess and is unfeasible. Let's say you all port into the dungeon and someone drops out or turns out to be permanently AFK. You get a replacement who's VR16. Now what? The entire dungeon rescales?

So you're saying at levels 10-35 you have the same success chance as 49-VR16?
No

If someone drops out and another joins who is VR16....
-Ppl can stay but what's now occurring lately is if there are 2 or more VR14 or higher characters, those below get kicked or the VR14+ leave right off. As suggested, this solves the problem today and the problems that will continue when VR levels are removed.

It's not about the mechanics of the dungeons at all. It's how each player will play differently based on their available actions, skills, etc. If your tank or healer is under 30, you would adjust just like if your tank or healer are VR14+

All that other stuff you comment is of no importance to this topic.
We aren't discussing problems with NPCs or difficulties, it's purely grouping concerns that result in situations where if a character is still being developed especially if all group members are under 30, certain choices by role make the dungeons impossible or highly unlikely for PUGs.


Also consider that if nothing changes, when VR is removed you end up with situations where ppl have more stats and skill points but no where to apply the skill points that create addition dps, heal or tank opportunities.

The grouping tool for pugs should be based on the group leader and scale other up to the level. Anyone above is just a big BONUS.

That's the topic and how it should work always. Let the group decide who the leader is or base it off the highest. Either works but again....ppl are playing so the 30+ level situation will either leave or get kicked. It's how ppl play

Let's keep this simple: Four level 10 players in level 10 Spindleclutch will have the exact same difficulties as four level 10 players, scaled to VR15, in VR16 Spindleclutch. Battle leveling makes no difference.

And no, I'm not saying that a level 10-35 will have the same success as a 49-VR16. Please reread my post. I'm saying that a VR16 in VR16 Spindle will have a much easier time than a Lv10 leveled in VR16 Spindle (as it should be), but a Lv10 leveled in VR16 Spindle will have no worse a time than a Lv10 in Lv10 Spindle (as it should be).

And, yes, characters that are not yet mature will struggle. DPS without AoE, tanks without most of the needed tanking skills, etc. What I don't understand is why you blame any of this on the scaling or battle leveling. These players will have the exact same problems if they do the dungeon at level as it was originally intended. Which is why the lower-tier dungeons are so mechanically easy. Keep in mind that, at level 10, the only dungeons you can even queue up for are the three zone-1 dungeons.

Your thread is a solution seeking a problem that does not exist.

DuckNoodles

Yes, the max level should be based on the highest person in the group and not VR16

Yes you do get battled lvled but players don't realise if you are lvl 18 and join a low lvl group and it gets scaled to vet 16, you still have low skills and abilitys. There for the dungeon takes 10x longer to complete!

NewBlacksmurf

Yes, the max level should be based on the highest person in the group and not VR16

code65536 wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

It's harder tho when you're 30+ levels under and lacking the unlocked skills and Passives.

No, it's not.

The enemy mechanics are identical. They just have more health and hit harder. You have more health and hit harder. So what?

A level 10 scaled to VR15 doing Spindleclutch at VR16 is going to have the exact same "lacking unlocked skills and passives" problem as a level 10 doing Spindleclutch at level 10. Have you ever seen a lowbie PUG group try Spindleclutch? People around level 10 who form a group by randomly inviting people standing around the dungeon entrance (because they were sent there by the Undaunted intro quest). It's not pretty, and maybe if you've been in one of these groups, you wouldn't have these notions that somehow battle leveling is to blame.

With a fully maxed-out character with all skills and passives and BiS gear, you can solo Spindleclutch. No, you can't do that with a level 10 battle-leveled to VR15, but you're not supposed to have it that easy, and, most importantly, you can't do that with a level 10 in a level 10 Spindleclutch, either.

Also, the mechanics of what this thread suggests would be a complete mess and is unfeasible. Let's say you all port into the dungeon and someone drops out or turns out to be permanently AFK. You get a replacement who's VR16. Now what? The entire dungeon rescales?

So you're saying at levels 10-35 you have the same success chance as 49-VR16?
No

If someone drops out and another joins who is VR16....
-Ppl can stay but what's now occurring lately is if there are 2 or more VR14 or higher characters, those below get kicked or the VR14+ leave right off. As suggested, this solves the problem today and the problems that will continue when VR levels are removed.

It's not about the mechanics of the dungeons at all. It's how each player will play differently based on their available actions, skills, etc. If your tank or healer is under 30, you would adjust just like if your tank or healer are VR14+

All that other stuff you comment is of no importance to this topic.
We aren't discussing problems with NPCs or difficulties, it's purely grouping concerns that result in situations where if a character is still being developed especially if all group members are under 30, certain choices by role make the dungeons impossible or highly unlikely for PUGs.


Also consider that if nothing changes, when VR is removed you end up with situations where ppl have more stats and skill points but no where to apply the skill points that create addition dps, heal or tank opportunities.

The grouping tool for pugs should be based on the group leader and scale other up to the level. Anyone above is just a big BONUS.

That's the topic and how it should work always. Let the group decide who the leader is or base it off the highest. Either works but again....ppl are playing so the 30+ level situation will either leave or get kicked. It's how ppl play

Let's keep this simple: Four level 10 players in level 10 Spindleclutch will have the exact same difficulties as four level 10 players, scaled to VR15, in VR16 Spindleclutch. Battle leveling makes no difference.

And no, I'm not saying that a level 10-35 will have the same success as a 49-VR16. Please reread my post. I'm saying that a VR16 in VR16 Spindle will have a much easier time than a Lv10 leveled in VR16 Spindle (as it should be), but a Lv10 leveled in VR16 Spindle will have no worse a time than a Lv10 in Lv10 Spindle (as it should be).

And, yes, characters that are not yet mature will struggle. DPS without AoE, tanks without most of the needed tanking skills, etc. What I don't understand is why you blame any of this on the scaling or battle leveling. These players will have the exact same problems if they do the dungeon at level as it was originally intended. Which is why the lower-tier dungeons are so mechanically easy. Keep in mind that, at level 10, the only dungeons you can even queue up for are the three zone-1 dungeons.

Your thread is a solution seeking a problem that does not exist.

Have you even played the game.
Serious question because the reason I posted this was after two weeks of trying a dungeon via group finder.
Then literally grouping outside the finder with 3 of the 4 ppl where we were 10-15 and the third was in their 30's. We grabbed a 4th outside our level and did the dungeon in 15-20 mins.

Same things happened 4 other times.

There is a HUGE difference between the skills that only comes by leveling those skills, those Passives, unlocking other skills, those morphs and addition to character level.

Realize this post is about the NPC levels in relation to the group. If we can do it outside the rider withi 5 levels of one another but can't do even the first boss with the finder....perhaps this idea is as result of hands on experiences and feedback from others.

In my main who is VR16 and the other Alts who range from vr1-VR6 it's not an issue because their skills and morphs are leveled up.

EZgoin76

Other....

NBS and I haven't seen eye to eye on much of anything but I have to agree with him here. I did Spindelclutch as a lvl 12 the first week of console launch with a pug group. The only one that had done it before was the tank and he had only completed it once before. We got through with no deaths and only me coming close to it for pulling before everyone was ready. Luckily our healer saved my arse.

Did it again this morning while leveling an alt. Two of us knew exactly what to do, the other two were new players. We still cleared it but the run was much tougher than when I was a noob.

Instead of scaling to the group leaders level. I think all non-vet dungeons should scale to the original max level of that particular dungeon. While still having treasure drop at whatever the players level is. Vet dungeons should all still scale and battle level as they are now. I really have no idea if it would be difficult or not to battle level vet players to a lower level but I think this way would help lower level players without the needed resources to take on V16 mobs.

NewBlacksmurf

Yes, the max level should be based on the highest person in the group and not VR16

If anyone feels there is a better solution...please share but as is, unless you go and craft you're alt set gear in blues and purples...levels 10-30 are almost impossible to play as benefit to those VR1 and above.

code65536

No, the scaling to VR16 is a better system

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

It's harder tho when you're 30+ levels under and lacking the unlocked skills and Passives.

No, it's not.

The enemy mechanics are identical. They just have more health and hit harder. You have more health and hit harder. So what?

A level 10 scaled to VR15 doing Spindleclutch at VR16 is going to have the exact same "lacking unlocked skills and passives" problem as a level 10 doing Spindleclutch at level 10. Have you ever seen a lowbie PUG group try Spindleclutch? People around level 10 who form a group by randomly inviting people standing around the dungeon entrance (because they were sent there by the Undaunted intro quest). It's not pretty, and maybe if you've been in one of these groups, you wouldn't have these notions that somehow battle leveling is to blame.

With a fully maxed-out character with all skills and passives and BiS gear, you can solo Spindleclutch. No, you can't do that with a level 10 battle-leveled to VR15, but you're not supposed to have it that easy, and, most importantly, you can't do that with a level 10 in a level 10 Spindleclutch, either.

Also, the mechanics of what this thread suggests would be a complete mess and is unfeasible. Let's say you all port into the dungeon and someone drops out or turns out to be permanently AFK. You get a replacement who's VR16. Now what? The entire dungeon rescales?

So you're saying at levels 10-35 you have the same success chance as 49-VR16?
No

If someone drops out and another joins who is VR16....
-Ppl can stay but what's now occurring lately is if there are 2 or more VR14 or higher characters, those below get kicked or the VR14+ leave right off. As suggested, this solves the problem today and the problems that will continue when VR levels are removed.

It's not about the mechanics of the dungeons at all. It's how each player will play differently based on their available actions, skills, etc. If your tank or healer is under 30, you would adjust just like if your tank or healer are VR14+

All that other stuff you comment is of no importance to this topic.
We aren't discussing problems with NPCs or difficulties, it's purely grouping concerns that result in situations where if a character is still being developed especially if all group members are under 30, certain choices by role make the dungeons impossible or highly unlikely for PUGs.


Also consider that if nothing changes, when VR is removed you end up with situations where ppl have more stats and skill points but no where to apply the skill points that create addition dps, heal or tank opportunities.

The grouping tool for pugs should be based on the group leader and scale other up to the level. Anyone above is just a big BONUS.

That's the topic and how it should work always. Let the group decide who the leader is or base it off the highest. Either works but again....ppl are playing so the 30+ level situation will either leave or get kicked. It's how ppl play

Let's keep this simple: Four level 10 players in level 10 Spindleclutch will have the exact same difficulties as four level 10 players, scaled to VR15, in VR16 Spindleclutch. Battle leveling makes no difference.

And no, I'm not saying that a level 10-35 will have the same success as a 49-VR16. Please reread my post. I'm saying that a VR16 in VR16 Spindle will have a much easier time than a Lv10 leveled in VR16 Spindle (as it should be), but a Lv10 leveled in VR16 Spindle will have no worse a time than a Lv10 in Lv10 Spindle (as it should be).

And, yes, characters that are not yet mature will struggle. DPS without AoE, tanks without most of the needed tanking skills, etc. What I don't understand is why you blame any of this on the scaling or battle leveling. These players will have the exact same problems if they do the dungeon at level as it was originally intended. Which is why the lower-tier dungeons are so mechanically easy. Keep in mind that, at level 10, the only dungeons you can even queue up for are the three zone-1 dungeons.

Your thread is a solution seeking a problem that does not exist.

Have you even played the game.
Serious question because the reason I posted this was after two weeks of trying a dungeon via group finder.
Then literally grouping outside the finder with 3 of the 4 ppl where we were 10-15 and the third was in their 30's. We grabbed a 4th outside our level and did the dungeon in 15-20 mins.

Same things happened 4 other times.

There is a HUGE difference between the skills that only comes by leveling those skills, those Passives, unlocking other skills, those morphs and addition to character level.

Realize this post is about the NPC levels in relation to the group. If we can do it outside the rider withi 5 levels of one another but can't do even the first boss with the finder....perhaps this idea is as result of hands on experiences and feedback from others.

In my main who is VR16 and the other Alts who range from vr1-VR6 it's not an issue because their skills and morphs are leveled up.

LOL, yes, I have. And, yes, I've done these dungeons with a variety of builds, including once when I was on my alternate account, with a level 8 character that had no CP.

And, yes, leveling skills and passives make a huge difference. I never dispute that. What I dispute is that this has any relevance whatsoever to battle leveling.

So let me say this again: A lowbie battle-leveled in a VR16 dungeon will have the exact same difficulties as doing that dungeon at level. Emphasis on the "at level".

If you had a group of level 10-15 and someone in their 30's, then what was the dungeon scaled to? If it was scaled somewhere between 10-15, then of course that dungeon was a fast cakewalk: You had a character who was 20 levels overleveled that solo-carried the group. You weren't doing the dungeon at level!

If you didn't have that crutch--if everyone in the group was the exact same level--then you'll find that the dungeon difficulty is the same whether it's scaled VR16 with battle leveling or if you went in normally without scaling and leveling.

Also, when you do a random PUG, your biggest problem is the kind of people you get. I've been in a random Group Finder PUGs where the DPS (VR16) just light-attacked with his bow. Another time where the tank (Level 47) didn't even have a taunt. And yet another time where I, as the tank, did more DPS than the other three members (who were all VR) combined (back when GroupDamage still worked). I've even been in a Group Finder PUG where a Lv13 player was doing much better DPS than the VR3 player.

If you're having trouble clearing a dungeon with a LFG group, then, first and foremost, it's most likely a problem with the wide range of quality that you get with these groups (which tend to be pretty bad, esp. for nonvet dungeons). And second, it's not the fault of battle-leveling, because in the incident you just described, you got through it because of an overleveled carry.

Yes, battle-leveling does eliminate the possibility of scaling the difficulty down by underleveling the difficulty, but the "solution" you describe in this thread will do the exact same thing (instead of battle-leveling to VR16, battle-level to the highest-level character... and this makes a difference how??). This is also why I keep saying "at level", because, again, that's the only meaningful benchmark against which all this should be compared.

lolo_01b16_ESO

No, the scaling to VR16 is a better system

It's easier to scale everyone to v16 than scaling people to different levels, depending on their group.
Also I don't think that dungeons need to become easier. While leveling new characters I run multiple dungeons with people who just did their first dungeon in eso. And many of them told me they were disappointed on how easy dungeons in this game are compared to other games.

Garldeen

Yes, the max level should be based on the highest person in the group and not VR16

Im far from a great player but ive never managed to get past a first boss on any dungeon using the group finder tool. Yet, on the other hand, ive never failed a dungeon when using manually created groups. To me, dunegons are not even worth trying anymore and so ive being spending more time in ffxiv where scaling for random groups seems to work much better.

NewBlacksmurf

Yes, the max level should be based on the highest person in the group and not VR16

code65536 wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

It's harder tho when you're 30+ levels under and lacking the unlocked skills and Passives.

No, it's not.

The enemy mechanics are identical. They just have more health and hit harder. You have more health and hit harder. So what?

A level 10 scaled to VR15 doing Spindleclutch at VR16 is going to have the exact same "lacking unlocked skills and passives" problem as a level 10 doing Spindleclutch at level 10. Have you ever seen a lowbie PUG group try Spindleclutch? People around level 10 who form a group by randomly inviting people standing around the dungeon entrance (because they were sent there by the Undaunted intro quest). It's not pretty, and maybe if you've been in one of these groups, you wouldn't have these notions that somehow battle leveling is to blame.

With a fully maxed-out character with all skills and passives and BiS gear, you can solo Spindleclutch. No, you can't do that with a level 10 battle-leveled to VR15, but you're not supposed to have it that easy, and, most importantly, you can't do that with a level 10 in a level 10 Spindleclutch, either.

Also, the mechanics of what this thread suggests would be a complete mess and is unfeasible. Let's say you all port into the dungeon and someone drops out or turns out to be permanently AFK. You get a replacement who's VR16. Now what? The entire dungeon rescales?

So you're saying at levels 10-35 you have the same success chance as 49-VR16?
No

If someone drops out and another joins who is VR16....
-Ppl can stay but what's now occurring lately is if there are 2 or more VR14 or higher characters, those below get kicked or the VR14+ leave right off. As suggested, this solves the problem today and the problems that will continue when VR levels are removed.

It's not about the mechanics of the dungeons at all. It's how each player will play differently based on their available actions, skills, etc. If your tank or healer is under 30, you would adjust just like if your tank or healer are VR14+

All that other stuff you comment is of no importance to this topic.
We aren't discussing problems with NPCs or difficulties, it's purely grouping concerns that result in situations where if a character is still being developed especially if all group members are under 30, certain choices by role make the dungeons impossible or highly unlikely for PUGs.


Also consider that if nothing changes, when VR is removed you end up with situations where ppl have more stats and skill points but no where to apply the skill points that create addition dps, heal or tank opportunities.

The grouping tool for pugs should be based on the group leader and scale other up to the level. Anyone above is just a big BONUS.

That's the topic and how it should work always. Let the group decide who the leader is or base it off the highest. Either works but again....ppl are playing so the 30+ level situation will either leave or get kicked. It's how ppl play

Let's keep this simple: Four level 10 players in level 10 Spindleclutch will have the exact same difficulties as four level 10 players, scaled to VR15, in VR16 Spindleclutch. Battle leveling makes no difference.

And no, I'm not saying that a level 10-35 will have the same success as a 49-VR16. Please reread my post. I'm saying that a VR16 in VR16 Spindle will have a much easier time than a Lv10 leveled in VR16 Spindle (as it should be), but a Lv10 leveled in VR16 Spindle will have no worse a time than a Lv10 in Lv10 Spindle (as it should be).

And, yes, characters that are not yet mature will struggle. DPS without AoE, tanks without most of the needed tanking skills, etc. What I don't understand is why you blame any of this on the scaling or battle leveling. These players will have the exact same problems if they do the dungeon at level as it was originally intended. Which is why the lower-tier dungeons are so mechanically easy. Keep in mind that, at level 10, the only dungeons you can even queue up for are the three zone-1 dungeons.

Your thread is a solution seeking a problem that does not exist.

Have you even played the game.
Serious question because the reason I posted this was after two weeks of trying a dungeon via group finder.
Then literally grouping outside the finder with 3 of the 4 ppl where we were 10-15 and the third was in their 30's. We grabbed a 4th outside our level and did the dungeon in 15-20 mins.

Same things happened 4 other times.

There is a HUGE difference between the skills that only comes by leveling those skills, those Passives, unlocking other skills, those morphs and addition to character level.

Realize this post is about the NPC levels in relation to the group. If we can do it outside the rider withi 5 levels of one another but can't do even the first boss with the finder....perhaps this idea is as result of hands on experiences and feedback from others.

In my main who is VR16 and the other Alts who range from vr1-VR6 it's not an issue because their skills and morphs are leveled up.

LOL, yes, I have. And, yes, I've done these dungeons with a variety of builds, including once when I was on my alternate account, with a level 8 character that had no CP.

And, yes, leveling skills and passives make a huge difference. I never dispute that. What I dispute is that this has any relevance whatsoever to battle leveling.

So let me say this again: A lowbie battle-leveled in a VR16 dungeon will have the exact same difficulties as doing that dungeon at level. Emphasis on the "at level".

If you had a group of level 10-15 and someone in their 30's, then what was the dungeon scaled to? If it was scaled somewhere between 10-15, then of course that dungeon was a fast cakewalk: You had a character who was 20 levels overleveled that solo-carried the group. You weren't doing the dungeon at level!

If you didn't have that crutch--if everyone in the group was the exact same level--then you'll find that the dungeon difficulty is the same whether it's scaled VR16 with battle leveling or if you went in normally without scaling and leveling.

Also, when you do a random PUG, your biggest problem is the kind of people you get. I've been in a random Group Finder PUGs where the DPS (VR16) just light-attacked with his bow. Another time where the tank (Level 47) didn't even have a taunt. And yet another time where I, as the tank, did more DPS than the other three members (who were all VR) combined (back when GroupDamage still worked). I've even been in a Group Finder PUG where a Lv13 player was doing much better DPS than the VR3 player.

If you're having trouble clearing a dungeon with a LFG group, then, first and foremost, it's most likely a problem with the wide range of quality that you get with these groups (which tend to be pretty bad, esp. for nonvet dungeons). And second, it's not the fault of battle-leveling, because in the incident you just described, you got through it because of an overleveled carry.

You're entitled to your opinions but in actual practice...a lot of your comments are just opinions and your own theories.

First off...level 10 is when you can use the grouping tools not 8

You're suggesting that regardless of scaling...the dungeons are just as hard. Really
Because if and when you read and understand how the scaling works in the Vr16 scaled environment vs the scaled to group leader environments...by default...you are wrong. Note the topic is "exceed" the highest and does not say "always match the highest". This offers variables that either use the non-grouping tools NPC adjustments OR offer the options for a group to select a character in the group that the dungeon is scaled off. So in context of this post...the problem identified which is not up for argument, but fact, is when the dungeon is set over 30+ levels higher than the highest character, the encounter is substantially harder.

By actual comparison, grouping with 3 of the 4 same players levels 10-14 and not with the 30 but instead another who was also 12, the dungeon adjusted and was doable without any of the challenges experienced. Fungal Grotto, or any of the first 3 dungeons AND the IC dungeons all drastically differ in grouping tools pre Vr1.

The success was not where 3 were 10-14 and where one was 30. Please carefully read that comment I made above. If it's not clear, sorry but that player was not with us. We were doing the dungeon at level as we were all within 4 levels of one another.

Please also understand that the whole group being at the exact same level isn't at all what's being discussed but since you mention it....if we were all level 14, it would be a lot easier because scaling adds not just to us but also to the NPCs and therefore our gear adjusts and this goes to my suggestion...the dungeon should not exceed the max level of the highest character in the group.

We all realize that the player selection plays the largest impact. No question there BUT after cycling out 3 or 4 others before giving up, it gets to a point where it's silly when later we group outside and finish it in one run.

ALSO the obvious oversights that occur and that are a big problem as well

The drops tend to be higher than me for blues and purples.
The soup gems for me don't work anymore so we all have to use crown soul gems or grand soul gems
The Hit points can far exceed the group as the enchants or lack or certain gear doesn't get scaled so you're not effectively able to progress.

I discussed this in another thread long ago and was incorrect about some things as Xbox One just got the patch that PC has months ago...some of the base game adjustments also are causing things to not work as intended and are adding to complexities of other non resolved bugs present on Xbox one for ESO.

Not trying to be rude...but I'm defending what I and many know to be a recipe for disaster which is why more and more stand in towns to form groups vs using grouping tools.

Reality is....even with the proposed adjustments and the removal of VR...the NOCs should never exceed the max character level in the group. Perhaps it should be lower in cases but that's the point of this topic. This needs to be addressed by ZOS in a future base game patch prior to VR removal.

laksikus

No, the scaling to VR16 is a better system

the scaling system is absolutely fine.
low level chars will struggle the same as if they do it their level.

In fact everyone gets a benefit for running in group tool groups: every gear loot will be scaled to each players level.

If you are low, you will have the same hard time as if you run it with 3 other people your level, if you are high level you will have it easier cos you have more skills unlocked.

Speaking of level: you can only join certain dungeons at lvl 10, there is a minb level for every dungeon, so that every dungeon is possible with every skill setup for your level.

Refuse2GrowUp

No, the scaling to VR16 is a better system

Be glad they are scaling you. You used to have to level up to be able to do dungeons. Now players can attempt to run them all at level 10, too include veteran ones, and get buffed enough to actually have a chance. And yet, this still isn't good enough for some people...everyone just needs to come here and bit(complain). Give an inch, take a mile!

NewBlacksmurf

Yes, the max level should be based on the highest person in the group and not VR16

Refuse2GrowUp wrote: »

Be glad they are scaling you. You used to have to level up to be able to do dungeons. Now players can attempt to run them all at level 10, too include veteran ones, and get buffed enough to actually have a chance. And yet, this still isn't good enough for some people...everyone just needs to come here and bit(complain). Give an inch, take a mile!

This is not accurate

I've been around since closed beta. I have VR16.
The point of the thread is those below or Alts not in crafted or set gear.

You cannot do vet dungeons until you reach VR1
You cannot do normal dungeons prior to reaching the level to unlock them.


Complain...no, it's a suggestion of how to resolve the obstacle based on what coding ZOS has already completed.

code65536

No, the scaling to VR16 is a better system

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

You're entitled to your opinions but in actual practice...a lot of your comments are just opinions and your own theories.

First off...level 10 is when you can use the grouping tools not 8

I assure you, this isn't opinion. This is me doing lots of dungeons, on lowbies and on my VRs, with and without LFG. Also, my level 8 did Spindleclutch with a random invite-the-people-standing-outside-the-dungeon group (no LFG). And, yes, even with Spindle scaled to level 10, my level 8 with no CP was carrying the group with people level 10-14 because things like player experience is far, far more important than raw stats or levels, which is why newbie players will struggle whether they're doing it scaled VR16 or doing it at level.

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

fact, is when the dungeon is set over 30+ levels higher than the highest character, the encounter is substantially harder.

Um. You do understand that you're battle-leveled, right?? Yes, the dungeon is scaled up to VR16. But you are also scaled up to VR15. Your stats, your armor, your weapons, your food, your potions--they're all scaled up too. There is no substantial difference between doing a dungeon at level and doing a dungeon at VR16, when you are battle-leveled.

laksikus

No, the scaling to VR16 is a better system

a suggestion we dont need.

lvl 10 chars will have the same problems no matter what.
If they run at v16 scaled or with 3 other lvl 10 chars.

You want something thats completely useless.


Imagin 3x level 10 guys + 1x lvl 30.
you want it to scale to lvl 30?!

the lvl 30 guy has the exact same stats
the 3x lvl 10 guys will have the same stats as the lvl 30
all enemies will be scaled to lvl 30.

on the other hand scale to v16:
30 will be scaled to v16:
3x 10 will be scaled to v16:
enemies will be scaled to v16.

thats the EXACT same thing, no difference at all.
Skills of those 3 lvl 10 guys wont change, neither will those of the lvl 30.

PKLdude

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

PKLdude wrote: »

I would agree but honestly the same issues would remain it isn't sometimes so much the battle leveling but when you get a level 14 "tank" they often times don't have the skills to do the job. Plus people don't think outside the box often times and even though they are let's say dps they have no utility skills to help the group. I mean for example even though idps and tank and heal I'll have skills to make the grouping easier like crowd control skills or spot healing for myself. The tanking and healing in this game is intuitive but it isn't like other mmos, which I like, so it is limited in a fashion. I have encase and the motion to slow them down after it ends which helps immensely on my stam sorc. My magicka dk can talons for days keeping the mobs off me and the healer plus he is hybridised and can heal so if the *** hits the fan. People think only one thing, or just queue as everything further confusing and complicating things. I have sadly come to the point that if I'm the lead and not the tank or healer I will kick them if they aren't doing their role, and message saying sorry but I thought you were a tank or healer and need that and not another dps pretending.

I do agree on the comments where ppl don't support others. It's harder tho when you're 30+ levels under and lacking the unlocked skills and Passives.

I see what ZOS intends but the logic used isn't best for what exists and what's changing in 90 days

I know what you mean the only time I'll kick a lowbie is if they come in not looking the part and I ask and give them the chance but it your not dressed the part and most likely don't have the skills I'm done really trying to be all understanding. I had to learn, if they don't want to oe have the gear and yet willingly chose that spot to queue for you're out. Sounds terrible but it is just exhausting anymore with everyone queueing for everything because they are dps and don't want to wait. I chose the role even if it means waiting unless I made a hybrid that can do both. People are making it suck for others if you dps and only plan on it just choose that role. Sure we may be able to do it with a group that isn't standard but even then it takes people choosing skills that help the entire group and having knowledge of your class.

PKLdude

Refuse2GrowUp wrote: »

Be glad they are scaling you. You used to have to level up to be able to do dungeons. Now players can attempt to run them all at level 10, too include veteran ones, and get buffed enough to actually have a chance. And yet, this still isn't good enough for some people...everyone just needs to come here and bit(complain). Give an inch, take a mile!

It isn't so much complaining that this is absolutely terrible but really people are just asking to get kicked out being just plain selfish not wanting to wait as adps because it takes a long time. So this is causing allot of frustration, tag on the fact that they are doing very without the skills and many times not even the role they queue for makes it worse. I'm enjoying the faster grouping but it is frustrating.