Stealth + Proximity Detonation needs attention (screenshot proof)

Xeniph

Solariken wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Was your gear broken at the time?

Wouldn't have been a lot higher than 9k if that was the case?

Doubt it. Most people I crit with proxies generally do 6-7K. NPCs about 18K. OP either has no impen gear up, has invested little in the damage mitigation passives, or may have had their gear busted (it degrades quickly in the IC).

17.1k spell resist, 500 impen from gear, 10% hard CP magic mitigation, 5 CP in crit resist, full legendary v16 gear (not broken). It's hard to invest much more than that without gimping my offensive ability into uselessness. Still, those aren't chump stats.

I dont know why people make a big deal about v16 legendary armor...it isn't much different from v15 purple armor. They may not be chump stats, but I wouldn't call them champ tank stats. 17.1K spell resist is average at best and you lost a third of that from the NB's breech. 5 CPs in crit resist is nothing. You say you don't want to gimp your offensive ability and that's fine, but that's your choice and you are going to take that much damage from burst builds that rely on crit. You got hit with an empowered prox det while breeched and like others in the thread, I do not see that as abnormal considering the circumstances.

I definitely wouldn't call this occurrence abnormal. It's standard practice for mNB. I wouldn't have been so irked over it if you blew me up with it, or any other non-mNB for that matter, because then we are talking about actual PvP.

In a sense I regret making this post, at least in the way it was written, because I did so out of rage/butthurt. However, there is an actual problem being discussed here which I'm always surprised that so many people care so little about. Why does the one-shot-Willy-from-stealth playstyle exist in this game?

I stand by my premise that stealth gameplay needs to be toned down. Stealth/invisibility should be designed primarily for utility and escape, not to facilitate insane amounts of generally non-counterable offensive power.

Am I wrong in this?

From my perspective, you are totally wrong.

This is the ONLY thing in pvp I enjoy. And yes I enjoy being on the receiving end as well.

I have been MMOing for 19 years, and have searched out only the games that have this play style element in pvp.
I find it exhilarating to get jumped and do all that I can to survive and make a comeback, but if I always succeded in rebounding and basically having a 5 minute duel that would be boring to me.

And in the reverse, ganking players that are unaware and or otherwise occupied is exhilarating. Especially seeing how many I can take out in quick sucession.

That's what I call "PvP" From my perspective, you are asking for more balanced "Duels"

Also, just to add a bit of context, stealth gameplay has been nerfed several times, since release. From the reduction of the sneak attack modifier (twice) to the nerfing of abilities, so they don't receive that modifier. And a whole host of other "tweaks"

But don't you dare take away my ability to die in seconds and wonder wtf just happened. I like that and find excitement in finding ways to prevent it.

Solariken

Xeniph wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Was your gear broken at the time?

Wouldn't have been a lot higher than 9k if that was the case?

Doubt it. Most people I crit with proxies generally do 6-7K. NPCs about 18K. OP either has no impen gear up, has invested little in the damage mitigation passives, or may have had their gear busted (it degrades quickly in the IC).

17.1k spell resist, 500 impen from gear, 10% hard CP magic mitigation, 5 CP in crit resist, full legendary v16 gear (not broken). It's hard to invest much more than that without gimping my offensive ability into uselessness. Still, those aren't chump stats.

I dont know why people make a big deal about v16 legendary armor...it isn't much different from v15 purple armor. They may not be chump stats, but I wouldn't call them champ tank stats. 17.1K spell resist is average at best and you lost a third of that from the NB's breech. 5 CPs in crit resist is nothing. You say you don't want to gimp your offensive ability and that's fine, but that's your choice and you are going to take that much damage from burst builds that rely on crit. You got hit with an empowered prox det while breeched and like others in the thread, I do not see that as abnormal considering the circumstances.

I definitely wouldn't call this occurrence abnormal. It's standard practice for mNB. I wouldn't have been so irked over it if you blew me up with it, or any other non-mNB for that matter, because then we are talking about actual PvP.

In a sense I regret making this post, at least in the way it was written, because I did so out of rage/butthurt. However, there is an actual problem being discussed here which I'm always surprised that so many people care so little about. Why does the one-shot-Willy-from-stealth playstyle exist in this game?

I stand by my premise that stealth gameplay needs to be toned down. Stealth/invisibility should be designed primarily for utility and escape, not to facilitate insane amounts of generally non-counterable offensive power.

Am I wrong in this?

From my perspective, you are totally wrong.

This is the ONLY thing in pvp I enjoy. And yes I enjoy being on the receiving end as well.

I have been MMOing for 19 years, and have searched out only the games that have this play style element in pvp.
I find it exhilarating to get jumped and do all that I can to survive and make a comeback, but if I always succeded in rebounding and basically having a 5 minute duel that would be boring to me.

And in the reverse, ganking players that are unaware and or otherwise occupied is exhilarating. Especially seeing how many I can take out in quick sucession.

That's what I call "PvP" From my perspective, you are asking for more balanced "Duels"

Also, just to add a bit of context, stealth gameplay has been nerfed several times, since release. From the reduction of the sneak attack modifier (twice) to the nerfing of abilities, so they don't receive that modifier. And a whole host of other "tweaks"

But don't you dare take away my ability to die in seconds and wonder wtf just happened. I like that and find excitement in finding ways to prevent it.

How can that be the only thing you enjoy about PvP? The PvP in this game has tons of depth, great combat, good objectives, etc - why waste it by allowing effective one-shots? It seems so silly to me.

To be clear, I'm not against using stealth to get the jump on your opponent, because I love that as well. I admit that there is a lot of personal bias here, but I just think that Nightblades are too strong in that regard. I really like the class and its abilities, but right now it's a god class for anyone who has a clue about how to play it.

Xeniph

Solariken wrote: »

Xeniph wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Was your gear broken at the time?

Wouldn't have been a lot higher than 9k if that was the case?

Doubt it. Most people I crit with proxies generally do 6-7K. NPCs about 18K. OP either has no impen gear up, has invested little in the damage mitigation passives, or may have had their gear busted (it degrades quickly in the IC).

17.1k spell resist, 500 impen from gear, 10% hard CP magic mitigation, 5 CP in crit resist, full legendary v16 gear (not broken). It's hard to invest much more than that without gimping my offensive ability into uselessness. Still, those aren't chump stats.

I dont know why people make a big deal about v16 legendary armor...it isn't much different from v15 purple armor. They may not be chump stats, but I wouldn't call them champ tank stats. 17.1K spell resist is average at best and you lost a third of that from the NB's breech. 5 CPs in crit resist is nothing. You say you don't want to gimp your offensive ability and that's fine, but that's your choice and you are going to take that much damage from burst builds that rely on crit. You got hit with an empowered prox det while breeched and like others in the thread, I do not see that as abnormal considering the circumstances.

I definitely wouldn't call this occurrence abnormal. It's standard practice for mNB. I wouldn't have been so irked over it if you blew me up with it, or any other non-mNB for that matter, because then we are talking about actual PvP.

In a sense I regret making this post, at least in the way it was written, because I did so out of rage/butthurt. However, there is an actual problem being discussed here which I'm always surprised that so many people care so little about. Why does the one-shot-Willy-from-stealth playstyle exist in this game?

I stand by my premise that stealth gameplay needs to be toned down. Stealth/invisibility should be designed primarily for utility and escape, not to facilitate insane amounts of generally non-counterable offensive power.

Am I wrong in this?

From my perspective, you are totally wrong.

This is the ONLY thing in pvp I enjoy. And yes I enjoy being on the receiving end as well.

I have been MMOing for 19 years, and have searched out only the games that have this play style element in pvp.
I find it exhilarating to get jumped and do all that I can to survive and make a comeback, but if I always succeded in rebounding and basically having a 5 minute duel that would be boring to me.

And in the reverse, ganking players that are unaware and or otherwise occupied is exhilarating. Especially seeing how many I can take out in quick sucession.

That's what I call "PvP" From my perspective, you are asking for more balanced "Duels"

Also, just to add a bit of context, stealth gameplay has been nerfed several times, since release. From the reduction of the sneak attack modifier (twice) to the nerfing of abilities, so they don't receive that modifier. And a whole host of other "tweaks"

But don't you dare take away my ability to die in seconds and wonder wtf just happened. I like that and find excitement in finding ways to prevent it.

How can that be the only thing you enjoy about PvP? The PvP in this game has tons of depth, great combat, good objectives, etc - why waste it by allowing effective one-shots? It seems so silly to me.

To be clear, I'm not against using stealth to get the jump on your opponent, because I love that as well. I admit that there is a lot of personal bias here, but I just think that Nightblades are too strong in that regard. I really like the class and its abilities, but right now it's a god class for anyone who has a clue about how to play it.

I just don't enjoy the objectives in this game. They attract WAY too many people. Great combat can be subjective. I have had some great fights that started off with one person having a major advantage and the other eventually winning. Those are what I consider great combat situations. If the pvp didn't have "effective" one shots, I would be elsewhere, that's just how I enjoy Pvp.

As to the NB being a "god" class, I will have to disagree. I see the classes as a whole being fairly balanced excluding Magicka DK, Templars needing a bit of a buff ( And a whole host of fixes ffs!) and my personal crusade with how shields currently function. The evidence is everywhere on the web, in the right hands most classes perform quite well. After all it's a rock-paper-scissors game with elements of skill weaved in.

I hear what you are saying, it's been said since the inception of the alpha strike from stealth classes have been around. Some people don't enjoy that type of combat. The best part of ESO, unlike any other I have ever played, is that they have a multitude of ways to counter this playstyle. Most just refuse to employ them, citing reasons ranging from "why should I have to" to "I don't want to nerf myself", none of which are true or even valid, imo. In fact most people don't even know how to properly gear for pvp, instead opting to wear pve or non optimized gear.

I'd like to propose we put this discussion on the back burner until we can test the changes coming in the next update.

Lava_Croft

'One-shotting' is not PvP.

Xeniph

Lava_Croft wrote: »

'One-shotting' is not PvP.

I'm sure you meant to say- Imo

I see what you mean though, as I think groups in pvp, especially large groups, aren't "pvp" either.

Pvp stands for player versus player. It does not state it has to be fair, that either party needs to be aware or equally skilled/geared/leveled.

I'll say again- If you are looking for an equal chance to fight back, no surprises or fairness. You are looking for gameplay closer to duels or large group play.

"one-shotting will always be a thing in ESO, if not with one class and a set of abilities, it will be with a new class and another set. Especially when people refuse to use the counters designed to mitigate/prevent them.

Lava_Croft

No, I didn't meant to say imo. One-shotting in a game like ESO is not PvP, it's terrible ability design combined with a broken input system and network latency that rivals playing NetQuake over a 14k4 dial-up connection.

If you think large groups are not PvP, then why on Nirn did you buy a game that was marketed exclusively for it's large scale PvP? (Insert joke about how large scale PvP is completely broken since forever.)

Jhunn

Solariken wrote: »

Kr3do wrote: »

Its a massive red circle arround the enemy? Why dont you just block?

You serious? This happened in IC, and it was a skilled nightblade who specializes in 1-second kills. If you PvP at all, you know that the red circle appears when the ability is cast but does NOT move with the nightblade after he uses Cloak. So a NB with half a brain will cast it in the hallway, cloak, and run into your room and burst you for 3 times your health pool. Don't act like this is acceptable, because it's not.

A player with a half brain won't die from this.

Galvanize

Are they not nerfing det for single target damage?

ScruffyWhiskers

That's the rumor. I do hope they compensate magicka melee players in some other way. Proxy is cheesy and I don't really enjoy using it but it's become a sad necessity since the 50% damage reduction went into place.

Sallington

Alcast wrote: »

Proxi was designed as a Zergbuster and now it is used as Single Target dmg skill, gg.

Yup. Dumb skill which has the complete opposite of the intended effect.

It maybe could work well without AOE caps, but....yeah.

DHale

Or you could put 100 pts into hardy, put down caltrops, run Mage light, hold block and or get in stealth, i.e. Not stand out in the open run heavy armor, reduce crit with Inpen, use detect pots, you know play the game and learn to adapt to opponents and play styles.

leepalmer95

DHale wrote: »

Or you could put 100 pts into hardy, put down caltrops, run Mage light, hold block and or get in stealth, i.e. Not stand out in the open run heavy armor, reduce crit with Inpen, use detect pots, you know play the game and learn to adapt to opponents and play styles.

So be 300 cp atleast and put them all in hardy just for mag blades. Got it.

Randomly throw an expensive skill everywhere in the hope a nb doesn't lotus/ult/proxy you from further than the range of caltraps, also hope your assault 6.

Run heavy armour which is just useless in pvp.

Everyone uses impen anyway if there not a sorc.

Drink expensive pots with a 45s cooldown and hope a nb is in the area for the 15s its useful.

Use mage light on a stamina build or waste 2 slots on a mag build, have you magicka reduced just to counter 1 cheese classes play style?

Lava_Croft

If you don't want to use any of the many counters available, that's your own fault.

Master_Kas

The crying for nerfs won't stop until everything is equally boring/useless. Because ZOS always give in to the mimimi-people.

Go on more nerf threads !

Jhunn

Master_Kas wrote: »

The crying for nerfs won't stop until everything is equally boring/useless. Because ZOS always give in to the mimimi-people.

Go on more nerf threads !

And we're getting closer and closer for every patch

Xeniph

leepalmer95 wrote: »

DHale wrote: »

Or you could put 100 pts into hardy, put down caltrops, run Mage light, hold block and or get in stealth, i.e. Not stand out in the open run heavy armor, reduce crit with Inpen, use detect pots, you know play the game and learn to adapt to opponents and play styles.

So be 300 cp atleast and put them all in hardy just for mag blades. Got it.

Randomly throw an expensive skill everywhere in the hope a nb doesn't lotus/ult/proxy you from further than the range of caltraps, also hope your assault 6.

Run heavy armour which is just useless in pvp.

Everyone uses impen anyway if there not a sorc.

Drink expensive pots with a 45s cooldown and hope a nb is in the area for the 15s its useful.

Use mage light on a stamina build or waste 2 slots on a mag build, have you magicka reduced just to counter 1 cheese classes play style?

Or, just pay attention and block when you see a red circle?

Lets not pretend that proxy debt does even remotely decent damage to a player that knows how to gear for pvp and block the explosion, or the CC that inevitably they attempt to do before it goes off.

Honestly folks, learning to play is not all that difficult.

Solariken

Xeniph wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

DHale wrote: »

Or you could put 100 pts into hardy, put down caltrops, run Mage light, hold block and or get in stealth, i.e. Not stand out in the open run heavy armor, reduce crit with Inpen, use detect pots, you know play the game and learn to adapt to opponents and play styles.

So be 300 cp atleast and put them all in hardy just for mag blades. Got it.

Randomly throw an expensive skill everywhere in the hope a nb doesn't lotus/ult/proxy you from further than the range of caltraps, also hope your assault 6.

Run heavy armour which is just useless in pvp.

Everyone uses impen anyway if there not a sorc.

Drink expensive pots with a 45s cooldown and hope a nb is in the area for the 15s its useful.

Use mage light on a stamina build or waste 2 slots on a mag build, have you magicka reduced just to counter 1 cheese classes play style?

Or, just pay attention and block when you see a red circle?

Lets not pretend that proxy debt does even remotely decent damage to a player that knows how to gear for pvp and block the explosion, or the CC that inevitably they attempt to do before it goes off.

Honestly folks, learning to play is not all that difficult.

I hear blocking is super effective against fear.

leepalmer95

Xeniph wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

DHale wrote: »

Or you could put 100 pts into hardy, put down caltrops, run Mage light, hold block and or get in stealth, i.e. Not stand out in the open run heavy armor, reduce crit with Inpen, use detect pots, you know play the game and learn to adapt to opponents and play styles.

So be 300 cp atleast and put them all in hardy just for mag blades. Got it.

Randomly throw an expensive skill everywhere in the hope a nb doesn't lotus/ult/proxy you from further than the range of caltraps, also hope your assault 6.

Run heavy armour which is just useless in pvp.

Everyone uses impen anyway if there not a sorc.

Drink expensive pots with a 45s cooldown and hope a nb is in the area for the 15s its useful.

Use mage light on a stamina build or waste 2 slots on a mag build, have you magicka reduced just to counter 1 cheese classes play style?

Or, just pay attention and block when you see a red circle?

Lets not pretend that proxy debt does even remotely decent damage to a player that knows how to gear for pvp and block the explosion, or the CC that inevitably they attempt to do before it goes off.

Honestly folks, learning to play is not all that difficult.

Oh we not counting the nb using fear? Which because it's kind of op they will be using.

Or they use soul tether and stun you when the proxy goes of anyway.

You shouldn't be able to cloak with proxy det.

Xeniph

Holding block will prevent the stun from and CC coming from stealth, to include soul tether and there is always time to break the fear before proxy goes off.

Lets not exaggerate here, these combos are quite predictable and not very flexible. 9 times outa 10 if they have to use fear they have already used Tether and proxy went off. If they haven't you will have plenty of time to CC break.

Jhunn

Solariken wrote: »

Xeniph wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

DHale wrote: »

Or you could put 100 pts into hardy, put down caltrops, run Mage light, hold block and or get in stealth, i.e. Not stand out in the open run heavy armor, reduce crit with Inpen, use detect pots, you know play the game and learn to adapt to opponents and play styles.

So be 300 cp atleast and put them all in hardy just for mag blades. Got it.

Randomly throw an expensive skill everywhere in the hope a nb doesn't lotus/ult/proxy you from further than the range of caltraps, also hope your assault 6.

Run heavy armour which is just useless in pvp.

Everyone uses impen anyway if there not a sorc.

Drink expensive pots with a 45s cooldown and hope a nb is in the area for the 15s its useful.

Use mage light on a stamina build or waste 2 slots on a mag build, have you magicka reduced just to counter 1 cheese classes play style?

Or, just pay attention and block when you see a red circle?

Lets not pretend that proxy debt does even remotely decent damage to a player that knows how to gear for pvp and block the explosion, or the CC that inevitably they attempt to do before it goes off.

Honestly folks, learning to play is not all that difficult.

I hear blocking is super effective against fear.

I heard it's possible to CC-break.

Islyn

bchulettub17_ESO wrote: »

OP what is your spell resistance?

Bets are on not 'OP' lol

revonine

Xeniph wrote: »

Holding block will prevent the stun from and CC coming from stealth, to include soul tether and there is always time to break the fear before proxy goes off.

Lets not exaggerate here, these combos are quite predictable and not very flexible. 9 times outa 10 if they have to use fear they have already used Tether and proxy went off. If they haven't you will have plenty of time to CC break.

Immovable pots are also available for AP so there's no reason for anyone not to be carrying them ..ever.
When this combo works I sometimes get multiple kills from people that we're already distracted by something else or are already being targeted by teammates. By the time they ask "who's bats is that"? The burst has already gone off. Not a vamp anymore though so I use the Soul Tether method.

MrGigglypants

Solariken wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

Okay, since you changed the station, run detect pots, caltrops, any AOE, immovable, magelight, and still L2P.

I run detect pots, Caltrops, and jabs. All of which are effective if you know may be about to fight a Nightblade. None of which are effective when you are jumped at random. Insane burst from stealth is not a L2P issue. I get so sick of hearing that phrase when it has no meaning in so many discussions.

Jumped at random in IC is not even a thing. If you don't have your guard up it's your own fault. Making threads like this is a plague and I'm ashamed I've bumped it 3 times. It's stuff like this that ultimately kills classes. If they touch proxy det (which they already are cause of these posts) then melee mag builds will fall even further down the list, ie. Magicka Templars, Magicka DKs, and Magicka NBs. It will hurt the weakest the most (temps/DKs) and we'll all see even more stam builds putting out spammable 10K attacks cause everyone will respec.

I was fully buffed and ready for a fight, as always, but it doesn't matter. Proxy Det is not a class skill, and did not exist when the game launched. Just as stamina builds don't require Caltrops to be successful, magicka builds do not need Proxy Det to be successful. I don't see your point.

Eh magicka builds specifically the ones he mentioned do need det to be effective magick builds have 0 10k+ burst attacks while stam has multiple lol unless ur a sorc ofc.

Edziu

its no this 1st time and no only this 1 guy in other detonation moments

ehh, maybe max 2 seconds of combat(all aoe spam on single target, on me only) and nonstop invisible thanks this ulti, no way to defend this attack from hide like stamina nb gang(only sinlge target skills) you can defend with good reaction time
gg, magica maybe only nb need only aoe spam with deto and ulti to burst faster than stamina nb with single target skills from hide

Lava_Croft

No Effort Wasted.

leepalmer95

Edziu wrote: »

its no this 1st time and no only this 1 guy in other detonation moments

ehh, maybe max 2 seconds of combat(all aoe spam on single target, on me only) and nonstop invisible thanks this ulti, no way to defend this attack from hide like stamina nb gang(only sinlge target skills) you can defend with good reaction time
gg, magica maybe only nb need only aoe spam with deto and ulti to burst faster than stamina nb with single target skills from hide

DId you block?

Soon as i see bats i imediatly block and use either heals or a ground based cc, spears on my templar, streak on my sorc, i pop vigor, + igneous and hold block on my dk and a fear on my nb and of course try to get out of there.

Edziu

leepalmer95 wrote: »

DId you block?

Soon as i see bats i imediatly block and use either heals or a ground based cc, spears on my templar, streak on my sorc, i pop vigor, + igneous and hold block on my dk and a fear on my nb and of course try to get out of there.

ohh pls, dont tell me how to deff attacks, i dont have problem with nb gang etc, just try react on vamp+ deto when you cant see him until you dont lost about 70% health from hide/invisible until you will see wamp ulti lol

this thing is always with magica vamp nb + deto, burst better then on stamina thanks only deto lol

leepalmer95

Edziu wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

DId you block?

Soon as i see bats i imediatly block and use either heals or a ground based cc, spears on my templar, streak on my sorc, i pop vigor, + igneous and hold block on my dk and a fear on my nb and of course try to get out of there.

ohh pls, dont tell me how to deff attacks, i dont have problem with nb gang etc, just try react on vamp+ deto when you cant see him until you dont lost about 70% health from hide/invisible until you will see wamp ulti lol

this thing is always with magica vamp nb + deto, burst better then on stamina thanks only deto lol

Just focus on not dying, pop vigor, pop ward, pop harness, hold block. Throw area cc. Do anything to survive the bat combo.

I've killed quite few people in bats. They cloud me i turn arnour and dawnbreaker of smiting them then sweep them to death, won a few duels doing that they really don't expect you to go on the offensive, most of the time if you've hit them before bats they don't bother healing.

I understand it's strong but you really can't have anything against vamps they have it really roughly now days.

Edziu

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Just focus on not dying, pop vigor, pop ward, pop harness, hold block. Throw area cc. Do anything to survive the bat combo.

I've killed quite few people in bats. They cloud me i turn arnour and dawnbreaker of smiting them then sweep them to death, won a few duels doing that they really don't expect you to go on the offensive, most of the time if you've hit them before bats they don't bother healing.

I understand it's strong but you really can't have anything against vamps they have it really roughly now days.

for 1st..harnes magice ons tam buil =***, maybe 3k dmg shield, gg ;P

for 2nd just gang...on stam gang you can defend it with good reaction when you got stun on start, with this combo...you dont see anything
without any stun wamp ulti with aoe and with deto in 1 sec, you dont see and dont know about it in this start because you are not stunned and dont see this first skills, then in 2nd second you will see 1st aoe spam with wamp uti, and in this and of 2nd second you are just die, surprise lol, you dot see any skills on first combo, gg ;P
if not deto then you are stuned or other cc and you dsont getting 6k dmg from skills on start + bonus 10k+ deto, you getting only this 6-8k hit on start and next attacks, you can parry it :P but this combo 6k from skills + 10k+ deto invisible attacks...ehh, you are then just on finisher and you dont see it on start

in normal combat ok, you can control this :P also you can take control from stamina gang :P just need fast reaction, in this combo its impossible, invisible combo better than on stamina from hide

Mac10murda

Dk leap into a proxi, nightblade proximity + soul tether, sorc magicka det curse entropy frag , idk what templar do