[POLL] What should barrier be capped at?

Satiar

24

WRX wrote: »

Look guys, I get you don't like the changes, but they are coming. Insult if you want but its reality.

@Chaos, shields are meant to keep you alive, never said they weren't. But Barrier has been a crutch for EVERY competitive guild for along time. My biggest gripe with this (and I think I even brought it up with Steve and Bulb when we first met) is the combination of the AoE caps, Barrier shields, and ulti return. That combination is way to much for me. Once CP system came in with bastion, it was all out the window.

And having those thing should and will keep you alive in a GvG along with healers, and every member helping every other member. Granted, moving as a stack will be a lot more detrimental, because a big reason people do that is to make sure the barrier hits everyone. Mano said it earlier, RAGE hardly uses barriers, and rarely has a sufficient amount of heals anymore too. Self-sustain has been a focus for a while now for us. It does work it large scale situations.

@Satiar I have been all about adding the HP back to 1.5:1.0, wouldnt need this 50% nerf to everything, and class shields would be better. But its far to early for me to start drinking lol (not really), so I am a sober Sally. I am not a fan of let it go man, and I honestly haven't even read his posts in the thread. However, you are right, and I do know better. And better me says barrier is far to strong right now. 12 people would be a happy amount, 6 is to low, 24 is to high.

I don't doubt TTK is pretty low right now, and I can understand you saying this will make it lower because it will. However, at the same time, the part I am excited about is having more complex playstyles in groups. If they made barrier not effected by the AoE caps, I would be happy with that change too, but its still a lower TTK. We will instead see reactionary barriers, and more veils, novas, negates, warhorns, etc..

VE seems to have all doom and gloom about this, but I think we both know you guys will adapt completely fine. Somethings will change, and fights will feel very different. They need to change how proxy scales as well, which will happen. You have been a really fun and nice guy anytime I have talked to you, and the whole TS was welcoming. Its clear we don't agree here, and you may be right about everything. However, this isn't a new development for me when it comes to barrier. Hope to talk to you guys soon.

Adapting isn't all that matters, is the trouble. We've adapted to many of ZoS' changes and remained a strong force on the battlefield, but many of those changes simply made the game objectively worse. I already find myself frustrated with the current meta, in regards to burst damage. I was really hoping we'd go in a better direction, heavier sustain fights where debuffs and cc and resource management played more of a role, but instead it feels the game is getting
more dumb. Why get into all that when TTK is low enough that you either kill or die?

frozywozy

18

Zheg wrote: »

I spend between 1/4 to 1/3 of my pvp time solo or in small groups (which ends up being significant given the amount of time I clock in Cyrodiil), but go ahead and keep your 24 man blinders on for anything I say.

I've started seeing you running solo since like a month ago.. I've been running solo for 1year and a half. Good attitude tho, I appreciate the effort and encourage you to continue. It's good practice to learn how to sustain yourself and not depend on others. Not saying that you do since you're a healer in your group, but still good practice.

If talking about a 1/3 loss in effectiveness (20k vs 30k) for barrier is so inconsequential, the same could be said for reducing the cap by 1/3 - and clearly people don't think that's inconsequential - yourself included. Just because you don't like counter arguments being pointed out, it doesn't make then negligible or meritless.

All I can see here is someone trying to argue with 1million dollar words, but in the end it doesn't change the fact that 20k x 24players = 480 000 damage absorbed which can't be crit and is mitigated by aoe caps. Nothing negligible.

TTK isn't low because of lag, if anything, when it's that laggy, people are MORE survivable because attacks can't be coordinated, ults can't be dropped, etc. Go watch any of the tons and tons of videos pvp guilds have put up over the past few months, almost all of their engagements are over in mere seconds, with or without lag. Not sure how you're going to try and refute that, but you're welcome to try.

I encourage you to try to stand in front of people spamming shards or fears as a 24men group pushes in your direction and to stay alive as you try to cc break. If you can prouve that lag helps you to stay alive longer during such situation, I'll gladly unsubscribe, uninstall and send you all my gold.

...when 15+ prox dets go off at once in an inner keep, best of luck, there's only so much maneuvering you'll be able to do on an inner keep where a single meteor wipes 4+ people because of fall damage, and pinning yourself down in one area will get you pelted with OP siege. The current alternatives to barrier - nova, negate, veils, etc. are going to be reduced in effectiveness because relying on ground based skills will lock you in place in a soon-to-be siege meta where you can't purge the effects, and/or are losing 5k stam per pop from the moronic oil catapult change.

First of, the proximity detonations are anti-zergs so you are expected to spread out if you see people using them. It was the main goal when they introduced them. They are going to change them in the next major update to do minimal damage to a few players and MORE damage to larger amount of players. Another great change I'm looking forward to deal with 24men ballgroups.

Second, you and alot of people from VE keep talking about siege changes and consequences like they were already in place and implemented. They are going to be tweaked before they get live on the server. Until that happen, it is totally useless to bring them in this thread. If you wanna complain about the siege propositions, go post in the siege thread from Wheeler.

You've seen firsthand the increased red horde that seem to be congregating when pushing objectives over the past week, and said so yourself that you're going to try and dissuade them from stacking up in one spot. What do you think will happen when a raid or two worth of those red come try to take ales and VE is sitting there with massive counter siege? They're going to wipe, horribly. Then they will come back with more, and more, and the ping will go up at the same rate. I see objective-play falling into two paths with the info currently released, either people will sit inside their keeps and pvp gets a little more boring, or people looking to assault a valuable keep are going to need to bring such obscene numbers that the servers groan.

No. I've teached every single red who has been part of my group to hit deeper in enemy territory when enemy DC/AD guilds stack one single keep and it's been working like a charm. I only have one last guild to train (one of the largest one number wise) and I'll make sure that they understand that a keep heavily defended should never be a main target. Unless we're trying to dethrone, there is no reason to be there. Not with the actual server performances.

Satiar

24

Frozn, you lecturing Zheg on small man is precious. He played for ages with Mostly Harmless, an amazing small man group (we were fighting them in 2s and 4s back in the day before we built our guild) and he played solo or duo from there until VE rolled blue.

You don't even recognize a good player from one of the better small mans we've had in this game but you want to talk down to him about "small man play"? LOL

Ghost-Shot

18

Satiar wrote: »

Frozn, you lecturing Zheg on small man is precious. He played for ages with Mostly Harmless, an amazing small man group (we were fighting them in 2s and 4s back in the day before we built our guild) and he played solo or duo from there until VE rolled blue.

You don't even recognize a good player from one of the better small mans we've had in this game but you want to talk down to him about "small man play"? LOL

Steve don't you know, even our 6 and 8 mans are a zerg, that word is apparently just synonymous with our guild at this point

Huckdabuck

Satiar wrote: »

Frozn, you lecturing Zheg on small man is precious. He played for ages with Mostly Harmless, an amazing small man group (we were fighting them in 2s and 4s back in the day before we built our guild) and he played solo or duo from there until VE rolled blue.

You don't even recognize a good player from one of the better small mans we've had in this game but you want to talk down to him about "small man play"? LOL

Ignorance is BLISS Steve. What more can be said about him?

ToRelax

6

Zheg wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Barrier is a viable ultimate in small groups and even solo play. Do you think a Leap wich is affected by the regular AoE cap has a larger impact in large groups than small ones? Probably not. I don't think Barrier's cap should be higher than the AoE cap on attack skills. The only reasonable argument for a cap as high as 12 that I saw so far, was to not affect PvE.

TTK is already artificially increased for the resource management most players have now. Maybe it's the fact that damage builds for trains have to care less about survivability and sustain, so they are killed easily when you manage to get a burst off, without having it absorbed by a Barrier. Could also lead one to believe the stats needed to break an 18k damage shield on 24 players with 2 detonations are normal.

I don't want to be an a** since it appears to me you truly believe what you are writing. But please, think your arguments through. You come up with stuff like the changes will reduce TTK, but appearantly refuse to think of strategies to take keeps with these proposed changes. Note strategies, not tactics. Large random zergs and their mentality would also be less of a problem if those who could wipe them wouldn't construct zergballs themselves to fight each other (beause it's the same mentality to bring more numbers until it works).

You're welcome to go listen to the TS of good pvpers, the good pvp guilds, and tell me what their reaction is when a solo player pops a barrier on him/herself. It's usually laughter, followed by ridicule, followed by concerned whispers if said player is a friend. When it comes to small groups, to each their own, but if I have less than 12 in group, I put everyone that I'd normally put on barrier on bats instead because it's just not worth it in the majority of engagements we'll be facing. You need to go super strong bomb mode as a small group trying to take on greater numbers, and almost everyone will try and position themselves for a stealth bomb in that scenario. Adding even more incentives to just bomb and then pull off so you can re-bomb, or to stealth down somewhere so your bomb is more effective will certainly tickle the fancy of some players, but that's not gameplay I enjoy. My most enjoyable engagements are when you're taking on another group and you keep re-positioning and hitting eachother over the course of minutes, not seconds, until the battle reaches its conclusion. You know what makes that possible? Barrier.

As for the leap question, uhh, yes, leap is far more effective on larger groups then it is on small groups. They're easier targets for bombs and you can take out a larger number of players at once then you can if everyone was spread/in small clusters. Should 2 players try and bomb 20? Probably not smart. Should 6? If everyone has dps ult up and you're in a good tactical position, absolutely. You may not wipe the entire group at once, but you have a good chance to wipe the majority and make it near impossible for them to recover.

As many have demonstrated thus far in this and other pvp threads, people who don't actually play in large groups think they know everything they need to when they in fact, they're just showing their lack of knowledge in that realm. If we have players in group running high damage and low sustain, it's a tiny number (maybe 2?) and they're only allowed to do so if they're experienced players and have demonstrated they are able to stay alive in sticky situations and when separated from group. The super majority of large groups SHOULD and do run decently high sustain, particularly healers. Do you need enough regen to dodgeroll from one keep to another? No. Do you need enough regen to be able to take on another group immediately after you've wiped the first one? You bet. The fact that 30k was introduced as the average barrier number just goes to show what happens when people have little experience in large group play talk about it with authority. For once, I'm actually not trying to pick on fengrush (really), but I will use it as an example of a highly knowledgeable pvper talking about realms of pvp that they just haven't spent much time in and insisting on balance changes that I think they'd take a second look at if they actually had that background knowledge to objectively consider whether or not they make sense. How can you have a productive debate over balance changes to a skill when the skill is in reality 1/2 to 2/3 as effective (most barriers are between 16k-21k) as some of the most knowledgeable voices currently think it is?

You say that the players who could wipe large zergs shouldn't become a 'ball group' to do so - but that's just another demonstration of people saying something because it sounds anti-group when it has little basis in practicality. If you want to kill larger numbers, particularly in a game where many templars can rez someone in literally one second, you need to condense your damage and not stay in one spot. How do you condense? hurr hurr, 'ball'. How do you not stay in one spot? hurr hurr, 'train'. If 12 good players all spread and tried to 1vX against 36+ players in a zerg, how do you think that plays out? Anyone that they do kill will just be rezzed up immediately. You need to be able to kill a lot of players at once so that if you do have the numbers to leave someone behind and stop rezzes, they only need to focus on a single area. If everyone is spread out the entire time, against greater numbers, no way are you keeping the dead players from being rezzed.

The fact that you imply TTK is reasonable or high right now just shows that you either aren't watching keep takes, or are talking about realms of pvp (1v1) that really don't matter much in an RvRvR game. For group v group fights, they're almost always over in 1-4 seconds. Again, all of the revealed changes so far are clear reductions in TTK (increased siege dmg and effects, unpurgable siege effects, purge nerf, barrier nerf, etc. etc.), and I haven't seen clear increases in mitigation, survivability, or base defense/hp. If there are, please do point them out to me, because I missed them.

The meta will be making major shifts with the next patch, but one thing that should be obvious to everyone - including wheeler and wrobel, is the meta will largely favor who has the bigger bomb and can get it off first. That sounds like real engaging pvp . If I wanted to play a game where most fights are over in < 3 seconds, I'd play an FPS.

Don't put words in my mouth that I never said...

- I'm aware that you don't think Barrier is a useful skill for small groups/solo players. Barrier can be a life saver, especially for builds that don't have damage shields otherwise or to save allies when you have no Healing Ward.

- I don't particularly enjoy "bombing" other groups, but it's certainly more fun than if the enemy doesn't even have to coordinate well to survive - pop a Barrier, and if anyone, not enough of them die. That goes for both "stealth bombs" and the longer fights you value so highly.

- I also didn't say 1 Leap is more effective than 6 ones, I said in a large group 1 Leap has not more of an impact than one Leap in a small group. Trying to hit as many targets as possible is no rocket science and not unique to large scale. I used Leap as an example to show how Barrier should not be so much more effective in larger groups than smaller ones.

- You're trying to justify the current zergball meta. I was actually surprised about this, most players running in those I spoke with would rather have it more tactical, but you seem to like it this way.
And then your whole arguement comes down to that you have to kill enough players fast that you can control the rezzing. Isn't the massive rezzing already another problem? And didn't you say you like longer fights with higher TTK? Yet here you state it's needed to kill a lot of enemies fast so you can keep them from being rezzed...

- And I am "implying" TTK is reasonable or high. Dude, just read what I wrote again. I said it's artificially increased for the resource management most players have. Not one word wether it's actually low or high or whatever right now, that's the thing with variables...
Also in small group fights, when someone dies within 1-4 seconds, he either made mistakes, or his teammates failed to save him, or both. TTK isn't about how long it takes to kill an afk target.
In large fights where you stack the damage from a full raid, it should hardly be surprising that players die fast, and if they didn't the fight wouldn't even come to an end (you know, resource management...).

Last paragraph made me laugh. The irony.

frozywozy

18

Satiar wrote: »

Frozn, you lecturing Zheg on small man is precious. He played for ages with Mostly Harmless, an amazing small man group (we were fighting them in 2s and 4s back in the day before we built our guild) and he played solo or duo from there until VE rolled blue.

You don't even recognize a good player from one of the better small mans we've had in this game but you want to talk down to him about "small man play"? LOL

What you guys have done in the first months of the game is one thing. What has happened the last year and a half is another.

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Frozn, you lecturing Zheg on small man is precious. He played for ages with Mostly Harmless, an amazing small man group (we were fighting them in 2s and 4s back in the day before we built our guild) and he played solo or duo from there until VE rolled blue.

You don't even recognize a good player from one of the better small mans we've had in this game but you want to talk down to him about "small man play"? LOL

Steve don't you know, even our 6 and 8 mans are a zerg, that word is apparently just synonymous with our guild at this point

Actually, I speak regulary with friends I have in VE and try to encourage them to run a 16men group instead of 24, but they say that leaders will never do such a thing.

Satiar

24

frozywozy wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Frozn, you lecturing Zheg on small man is precious. He played for ages with Mostly Harmless, an amazing small man group (we were fighting them in 2s and 4s back in the day before we built our guild) and he played solo or duo from there until VE rolled blue.

You don't even recognize a good player from one of the better small mans we've had in this game but you want to talk down to him about "small man play"? LOL

What you guys have done in the first months of the game is one thing. What has happened the last year and a half is another.

Nice try but naw. Zheg played small or solo up until the reroll which is barely half a year behind us, and still enjoys it when he has the time. You're just talking nonsense on things you know nothing about and got called on it. Make fewer assumptions in the future.

Edit to your edit: You should hang out more late night when I'm running 12-16 people against nightcapping swarms of AD and EP.

frozywozy

18

Ac

Satiar wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Frozn, you lecturing Zheg on small man is precious. He played for ages with Mostly Harmless, an amazing small man group (we were fighting them in 2s and 4s back in the day before we built our guild) and he played solo or duo from there until VE rolled blue.

You don't even recognize a good player from one of the better small mans we've had in this game but you want to talk down to him about "small man play"? LOL

What you guys have done in the first months of the game is one thing. What has happened the last year and a half is another.

Nice try but naw. Zheg played small or solo up until the reroll which is barely half a year behind us, and still enjoys it when he has the time. You're just talking nonsense on things you know nothing about and got called on it. Make fewer assumptions in the future.

Hard to not make assumptions when all I can see on a regular basis (at least once a day) is 20+ VE members zerging me 20v1 after the leader called in TS to zerg me down (confirmed) and then run away in 1v1 (Except Aoe BBQ). But yeah, I'll apologize for what I assumed toward Zheg.

Aldarenn

Other - Please state number/conditions (e.g. 6, but not affected by Battle Spirit)

8 people so that way 16 people will die to my siege next patch.

Satiar

24

frozywozy wrote: »

Ac

Satiar wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Frozn, you lecturing Zheg on small man is precious. He played for ages with Mostly Harmless, an amazing small man group (we were fighting them in 2s and 4s back in the day before we built our guild) and he played solo or duo from there until VE rolled blue.

You don't even recognize a good player from one of the better small mans we've had in this game but you want to talk down to him about "small man play"? LOL

What you guys have done in the first months of the game is one thing. What has happened the last year and a half is another.

Nice try but naw. Zheg played small or solo up until the reroll which is barely half a year behind us, and still enjoys it when he has the time. You're just talking nonsense on things you know nothing about and got called on it. Make fewer assumptions in the future.

Hard to not make assumptions when all I can see on a regular basis (at least once a day) is 20+ VE members zerging me 20v1 after the leader called in TS to zerg me down (confirmed) and then run away in 1v1 (Except Aoe BBQ). But yeah, I'll apologize for what I assumed toward Zheg.

Fair enough. I'm always surprised at how much this gets leveled at my guys considering how many of them are great small man players (I really laugh whenever someone calls @Teargrants a baddies zerger lol). I've always enjoyed having a raid guild and buddies to small man with, that was my relationship with VE and Hijinx for a long time.

And yeah, i totally call to Zerg you down. You'll have to forgive players for running from 1v1s I'm probably yelling at them to cease pugging out.

Teargrants

Frozy, we need those 20v1 clips for our upcoming Xv1 video montage. Your contribution this holiday season is something we are all thankful for and will forever remain with us in our hearts.

If you'd like to oblige us further, we still need an Xv1 using only Soul Trap.

frozywozy

18

Teargrants wrote: »

Frozy, we need those 20v1 clips for our upcoming Xv1 video montage. Your contribution this holiday season is something we are all thankful for and will forever remain with us in our hearts.

If you'd like to oblige us further, we still need an Xv1 using only Soul Trap.

I've been recording my ping spiking up from 500ms to 1200ms as VE or other 24men ballgroups push inside breaches but I can start working on that aswell if you would like.

Satiar

24

frozywozy wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

Frozy, we need those 20v1 clips for our upcoming Xv1 video montage. Your contribution this holiday season is something we are all thankful for and will forever remain with us in our hearts.

If you'd like to oblige us further, we still need an Xv1 using only Soul Trap.

I've been recording my ping spiking up from 500ms to 1200ms as VE or other 24men ballgroups push inside breaches but I can start working on that aswell if you would like.

Tell the EP inside to spread out a bit to avoid ping spikes

frozywozy

18

Satiar wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

Frozy, we need those 20v1 clips for our upcoming Xv1 video montage. Your contribution this holiday season is something we are all thankful for and will forever remain with us in our hearts.

If you'd like to oblige us further, we still need an Xv1 using only Soul Trap.

I've been recording my ping spiking up from 500ms to 1200ms as VE or other 24men ballgroups push inside breaches but I can start working on that aswell if you would like.

Tell the EP inside to spread out a bit to avoid ping spikes

This is exactly what we do anytime I run a group otherwise it's instant death from unbreakable ccs.

Zheg

18

@frozywozy , thanks, but no need to apologize. Just because I've spent significant time in and out of large groups, it doesn't mean that I don't still owe my friend @booksmcread ~2700 soul gems from all of the rezzing he used to do for me when we'd duo and I was a super pug

To end on a more serious note, opinions and criticisms from people who spend some of their cyro time in large groups should never be outright disregarded (like so many on these forums tend to do...) because they're a 'zergling' and only care about large group play having advantages. Many have strong solo/small group backgrounds, and/or still spend significant portions of their pvp time in those realms. T'would be nice if the many, many people on these forums were able to realize that large group players CAN be objective when it comes to diagnosing issues in pvp and discussing balance, even when it's to their detriment. Just because we disagree it doesn't mean I'm trying to game the system and augment or maintain advantages over solo/small group play. It doesn't mean I'm necessarily right in my opinion, but given the relatively small number of voices on these forums that actually have experience in large group pvp, when they do speak up, that experience should be leveraged in balance discussions. Again, it doesn't mean they're right, but sometimes it does mean that they have a perspective you and others aren't capable of having since you don't play in large groups, and sometimes it does mean they're capable of having the foresight to see bad balance directions that you don't.

It's always easier for a solo player (and small teams) to adapt to meta changes - it's more difficult for large groups. As such, people like steve and I spend a LOT of time thinking about strategies, gear sets, skills, group synergy, etc. - well ahead of when patches actually hit the live server so our group can be prepared. If I go chicken little mode on an upcoming patch like the siege one, it's not because I'm a zergling, saw something I didn't like, and complain about it until it goes my way. If I go full chicken little mode, it's because I've spent far more time than I'd care to admit thinking about how I believe this meta plays out, what I anticipate people will be running, how I anticipate people will be playing, etc. - and didn't see a healthy or improved meta result from it. It doesn't mean I'm right, but when people imply that I haven't given thought to what new strategies could be viable to deal with upcoming changes and am complaining just because I'm a large group player (as was done in this and other threads), it's ludicrous.

RoamingRiverElk

6

Zheg wrote: »

It's always easier for a solo player (and small teams) to adapt to meta changes - it's more difficult for large groups.

I agree, my magicka DK for instance was so easy for me to adapt to the current meta as a soloer/duoer/4 person group player. On the other hand, I shudder to think how difficult it would have been for me to make the magicka dk work in a group of 24. There's nothing she could offer to that kind of a group, she'd just die in an instant before doing any damage or popping that banner for the healing debuff!

Erondil

12

RoamingRiverElk wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

It's always easier for a solo player (and small teams) to adapt to meta changes - it's more difficult for large groups.

I agree, my magicka DK for instance was so easy for me to adapt to the current meta as a soloer/duoer/4 person group player. On the other hand, I shudder to think how difficult it would have been for me to make the magicka dk work in a group of 24. There's nothing she could offer to that kind of a group, she'd just die in an instant before doing any damage or popping that banner for the healing debuff!

Zheg

18

Erondil wrote: »

RoamingRiverElk wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

It's always easier for a solo player (and small teams) to adapt to meta changes - it's more difficult for large groups.

I agree, my magicka DK for instance was so easy for me to adapt to the current meta as a soloer/duoer/4 person group player. On the other hand, I shudder to think how difficult it would have been for me to make the magicka dk work in a group of 24. There's nothing she could offer to that kind of a group, she'd just die in an instant before doing any damage or popping that banner for the healing debuff!

Ahem. Wrong dino, that's a raptor. Do you even Jurassic Park bro?

Teargrants

Lenikus

Other - Please state number/conditions (e.g. 6, but not affected by Battle Spirit)

No caps.
at all.

Just remove the AoE dmg cap. wich is why people complain.

Jules

12

12 seems most reasonable, if not 6. I think barrier is such a strong ultimate and makes it so easy for large groups to be completely infallible. If you're going to get that huge shield over 24 people I think it should be 2+ ultimates blown to achieve this.