[POLL] What should barrier be capped at?

leeux

24

But, if Barrier is changed to only affect groups members... what is people like myself is going to do?

I don't belong to any organized PvP guilds, I don't normally have access to group play while in Cyro, but I'm a support/utility/healer and I like keeping people alive... that's why I can enjoy in PvP at all.

So, that change would mean that I cannot enjoy the PvP in this game anymore?

That's utterly bollocks... that's one extra part of the game that's going to the drain for me just because """bomb groups"""" or ""train groups"" or """zergs""", whatever you want to call them, are lagging your servers and you don't know how to deal with them.

Satiar

24

Manoekin wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

It's funny how you guys think that veils and negate will be useless because you cannot stand still. You are over exaggerating and getting a bit ridiculous here. The time it takes usually to wipe an enemy group with a well done negate is a matter of a few seconds. Standing still for a few seconds or moving constantly won't change much against one or two siege volleys. lol

Anyway, the way the game works right now, with a 24men ball group roaming inside a keep , most sieges don't even work. So I would not worry too much about sieges until they fix performances.

Even as it is now, against any force worth fighting standing still is death. Buffing damage and siege while taking away mobility enhances that to a rediculous degree.

@Manoekin Would you elaborate why you feel barriers should be at 6? With the coming changes I'm really surprised you're on that side of the argument, I'd love to hear your PoV on this.

I'll be able to mitigate siege damage with my build. I was already preparing for the next patch using Siege shield and it works great. My group already runs a low amount of barriers, too. Half the time I call for them I don't get one. Hell half of the time we only have like 2 healers. We are still learning, but we go in and out of our bombs a lot now to make up for not having a bunch of barriers. We know we can't just stand there and hope to wipe numbers double our size because we can't rotate mitigation and heals. TBH I like it more that way. When we had a full raid defending our guildmate's Emp it was boring for me. I didn't have to worry about anything, and not even lag really. I could just go out in the lag and come back basically unscathed.

IMO Barrier the way it is now (even though I love it) dumbs the game down and doesn't encourage people in the group to be more than just a cog in the machine. That's not even me hating on large groups, just how barrier works for groups of any size I feel like.

I would still use it at 6cap, just differently. 12 would be a good middle ground though.

Also, with the purge change I can't see them keeping siege effects unpurgeable. I also expect them to do something about the low TTK that somewhat balances with this change, and helps improve capabilities that certain classes have with survival.

Ok.

Firstly, your build may be great against siege damage, but that's because it isn't buffed yet. And I'm not super worried about the straight damage as I am about the unpurgable effects (which are currently still what is coming). Sure your build is tanky. How tanky is it when you have no stamina, and are snared and can't move? How tanky is your group in that situation when you can't even rely on an emergency barrier to let you try to get the fight under control?

The key part of your paragraph about defending was the part about defending. Defending is easy, and it will only become easier. If you're defending an emp keep with an emp and a full raid and all the pug support there.... yeah, it's going to be easy mode. That's not a knock at you, that's just how it is. The night you were defending emp, we had amazing open field fights with you, it was a lot of fun.

As to barrier specifically, I'd argue that currently it does the opposite. The easiest thing in the world to do is bomb a group. Proxes, bats, GO. Done. Those fights feel good but they don't satisfy. Barrier is what tends to keep most fights from becoming that. The best fights I've had with you or Haxus or anyone else that can give me a run for my money are the fights where initial bombs are mitigated, and it becomes a battle of attrition and maneuvering. Right now, bombs are strong but they aren't an I Win. I can pop a barrier or two, spread out, get re-situated, push back. Without mitigation it's just going to be "who can bomb who first". I don't see any other way. First one to get their DPS ults off wins. That's dumbed down gameplay.

The reason I can't believe you're for this is you know how fights are now. Most of them are done inside 10 seconds. Sometimes less. And our solution to this is to remove mitigation and further decrease TTK? That's crazy to me.

Ghost-Shot

18

leeux wrote: »

But, if Barrier is changed to only affect groups members... what is people like myself is going to do?

I don't belong to any organized PvP guilds, I don't normally have access to group play while in Cyro, but I'm a support/utility/healer and I like keeping people alive... that's why I can enjoy in PvP at all.

So, that change would mean that I cannot enjoy the PvP in this game anymore?

That's utterly bollocks... that's one extra part of the game that's going to the drain for me just because """bomb groups"""" or ""train groups"" or """zergs""", whatever you want to call them, are lagging your servers and you don't know how to deal with them.

We are saying to prioritize group members not only hit group members, you are more than welcome to give us those free barriers on the breach anytime you want

Chesimac

6

24 is ridiculous.. between 6-12 is good

leeux

24

Lol @Ghost-Shot

So, then... anyone knows any sources to the place where devs said they would change Barrier/Purge to work like that?

I admit I haven't been following the "rumor mill" lately, and also I've missed last few ESO lives due to work schedule conflicts, but if someone says it inside one of those, I'll go and watch them from the VOD.

Solariken

12

I think 12 is a reasonable cap, and the shield should be vulnerable to Negate Magic.

Satiar

24

Solariken wrote: »

I think 12 is a reasonable cap, and the shield should be vulnerable to Negate Magic.

See I'd love it if Negate did something like that. That's fun gameplay. A counter to a strong skill. Not a nerfhammer into the ground for useful group ultis. Again.

frozywozy

18

Zheg wrote: »

Brian and wroebl have put forward significant dmg increases and survivability nerfs for 24men ballgroups, I really haven't seen them talk about counter improvements for mitigation and survivability. If anyone thinks that all of the proposed changes coupled together isn't going to result in players just being blown up quicker for every playstyle and group size, I question their capacity for foresight.

Here, fixed it for you

Manoekin wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

It's funny how you guys think that veils and negate will be useless because you cannot stand still. You are over exaggerating and getting a bit ridiculous here. The time it takes usually to wipe an enemy group with a well done negate is a matter of a few seconds. Standing still for a few seconds or moving constantly won't change much against one or two siege volleys. lol

Anyway, the way the game works right now, with a 24men ball group roaming inside a keep , most sieges don't even work. So I would not worry too much about sieges until they fix performances.

Even as it is now, against any force worth fighting standing still is death. Buffing damage and siege while taking away mobility enhances that to a rediculous degree.

@Manoekin Would you elaborate why you feel barriers should be at 6? With the coming changes I'm really surprised you're on that side of the argument, I'd love to hear your PoV on this.

I'll be able to mitigate siege damage with my build. I was already preparing for the next patch using Siege shield and it works great. My group already runs a low amount of barriers, too. Half the time I call for them I don't get one. Hell half of the time we only have like 2 healers. We are still learning, but we go in and out of our bombs a lot now to make up for not having a bunch of barriers. We know we can't just stand there and hope to wipe numbers double our size because we can't rotate mitigation and heals. TBH I like it more that way. When we had a full raid defending our guildmate's Emp it was boring for me. I didn't have to worry about anything, and not even lag really. I could just go out in the lag and come back basically unscathed.

IMO Barrier the way it is now (even though I love it) dumbs the game down and doesn't encourage people in the group to be more than just a cog in the machine. That's not even me hating on large groups, just how barrier works for groups of any size I feel like.

I would still use it at 6cap, just differently. 12 would be a good middle ground though.

Also, with the purge change I can't see them keeping siege effects unpurgeable. I also expect them to do something about the low TTK that somewhat balances with this change, and helps improve capabilities that certain classes have with survival.

Omg well said Manoe, best post 2016! Glad to see someone who used to talk against siege damage finally realizing how great siege shield is.

Satiar

24

frozywozy wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Brian and wroebl have put forward significant dmg increases and survivability nerfs for 24men ballgroups, I really haven't seen them talk about counter improvements for mitigation and survivability. If anyone thinks that all of the proposed changes coupled together isn't going to result in players just being blown up quicker for every playstyle and group size, I question their capacity for foresight.

Here, fixed it for you

Can always count on you to be helpful

Seraph702

Other - Please state number/conditions (e.g. 6, but not affected by Battle Spirit)

I think 8 would be an ideal number for those that run 24 man or 16 or 12 6 is too low and the current barrier infinitely barriering the surrounding area is far too OP for 24+ players

PosternHouse

24

frozywozy wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Brian and wroebl have put forward significant dmg increases and survivability nerfs for 24men ballgroups, I really haven't seen them talk about counter improvements for mitigation and survivability. If anyone thinks that all of the proposed changes coupled together isn't going to result in players just being blown up quicker for every playstyle and group size, I question their capacity for foresight.

Here, fixed it for you

Manoekin wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

It's funny how you guys think that veils and negate will be useless because you cannot stand still. You are over exaggerating and getting a bit ridiculous here. The time it takes usually to wipe an enemy group with a well done negate is a matter of a few seconds. Standing still for a few seconds or moving constantly won't change much against one or two siege volleys. lol

Anyway, the way the game works right now, with a 24men ball group roaming inside a keep , most sieges don't even work. So I would not worry too much about sieges until they fix performances.

Even as it is now, against any force worth fighting standing still is death. Buffing damage and siege while taking away mobility enhances that to a rediculous degree.

@Manoekin Would you elaborate why you feel barriers should be at 6? With the coming changes I'm really surprised you're on that side of the argument, I'd love to hear your PoV on this.

I'll be able to mitigate siege damage with my build. I was already preparing for the next patch using Siege shield and it works great. My group already runs a low amount of barriers, too. Half the time I call for them I don't get one. Hell half of the time we only have like 2 healers. We are still learning, but we go in and out of our bombs a lot now to make up for not having a bunch of barriers. We know we can't just stand there and hope to wipe numbers double our size because we can't rotate mitigation and heals. TBH I like it more that way. When we had a full raid defending our guildmate's Emp it was boring for me. I didn't have to worry about anything, and not even lag really. I could just go out in the lag and come back basically unscathed.

IMO Barrier the way it is now (even though I love it) dumbs the game down and doesn't encourage people in the group to be more than just a cog in the machine. That's not even me hating on large groups, just how barrier works for groups of any size I feel like.

I would still use it at 6cap, just differently. 12 would be a good middle ground though.

Also, with the purge change I can't see them keeping siege effects unpurgeable. I also expect them to do something about the low TTK that somewhat balances with this change, and helps improve capabilities that certain classes have with survival.

Omg well said Manoe, best post 2016!

I have seen you tag along with 50+ on the normal. Why do you hate on 24 man groups when you do that? Seems pretty hypocritical.

s7732425ub17_ESO

WRX wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

vortexman11 wrote: »

I chose 12 because it seems like the most balanced between 24 and 4. But I think I should of chosen other...

To me the ideal barrier would scale based on the amount of ultimate built up, starting at 200, all the way up to 1000. At 200 ultimate it would effect 4 people, then every 40 more ultimate allows it to hit one more person, up to 24 when 1000 ultimate is built up.

I actually like this idea a lot.

But the value of ultimate / additional player would need to be thoroughly tested.

Na, no way. Then you just have people sitting tagging PvE mobs for 5 minutes to get a full barrier? I understand the idea of being rewarded for extra ulti, but this is not how to do it.

Stupid is as stupid does. If players want to waste 5 minutes of their time just to get a max barrier up, go ahead. Would pretty much be insta-kicked from my raid group, though.

Asmael

Other - Please state number/conditions (e.g. 6, but not affected by Battle Spirit)

No limit to Barrier.

No AoE caps for damage either.

If you stack up to get maximum benefit from Barrier, you should also risk getting your entire raid wiped -as it should be.

Satiar

24

I dunno, just seems like I'm not on the same page as everyone else. I fought 90 stacked EP last night. 90. tagged 96 on the flags at Bleakers. It took everything I had to actually win at Aleswell, multiple pushes, barriers, retreats and more pushes. Timed ult dumps with novas, negates and bats. Stacking as much mitigation, offense, and maneuverability as I could to beat a group much, much larger than the 18 I had with me.

And than to hear people just rag on about ball groups and talk about crippling my effectiveness. Jesus. You may not like being run over by raids like mine but well-coordinated groups like mine are literally the only counter to huge-ass zergs that doesn't include bringing your own huge ass zerg.

You guys

This next patch gonna be brutal. Numbers game, baby

frozywozy

18

PosternHouse wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Brian and wroebl have put forward significant dmg increases and survivability nerfs for 24men ballgroups, I really haven't seen them talk about counter improvements for mitigation and survivability. If anyone thinks that all of the proposed changes coupled together isn't going to result in players just being blown up quicker for every playstyle and group size, I question their capacity for foresight.

Here, fixed it for you

Manoekin wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

It's funny how you guys think that veils and negate will be useless because you cannot stand still. You are over exaggerating and getting a bit ridiculous here. The time it takes usually to wipe an enemy group with a well done negate is a matter of a few seconds. Standing still for a few seconds or moving constantly won't change much against one or two siege volleys. lol

Anyway, the way the game works right now, with a 24men ball group roaming inside a keep , most sieges don't even work. So I would not worry too much about sieges until they fix performances.

Even as it is now, against any force worth fighting standing still is death. Buffing damage and siege while taking away mobility enhances that to a rediculous degree.

@Manoekin Would you elaborate why you feel barriers should be at 6? With the coming changes I'm really surprised you're on that side of the argument, I'd love to hear your PoV on this.

I'll be able to mitigate siege damage with my build. I was already preparing for the next patch using Siege shield and it works great. My group already runs a low amount of barriers, too. Half the time I call for them I don't get one. Hell half of the time we only have like 2 healers. We are still learning, but we go in and out of our bombs a lot now to make up for not having a bunch of barriers. We know we can't just stand there and hope to wipe numbers double our size because we can't rotate mitigation and heals. TBH I like it more that way. When we had a full raid defending our guildmate's Emp it was boring for me. I didn't have to worry about anything, and not even lag really. I could just go out in the lag and come back basically unscathed.

IMO Barrier the way it is now (even though I love it) dumbs the game down and doesn't encourage people in the group to be more than just a cog in the machine. That's not even me hating on large groups, just how barrier works for groups of any size I feel like.

I would still use it at 6cap, just differently. 12 would be a good middle ground though.

Also, with the purge change I can't see them keeping siege effects unpurgeable. I also expect them to do something about the low TTK that somewhat balances with this change, and helps improve capabilities that certain classes have with survival.

Omg well said Manoe, best post 2016!

I have seen you tag along with 50+ on the normal. Why do you hate on 24 man groups when you do that? Seems pretty hypocritical.

Yeah keep accusing me and calling me hypocritical when you don't even know who I am, you never talked to me before, you don't know who my guild is, or what people are part of my guild or can't even bring videos of me part of 50men+ groups. Then you're going to say that you never before were in a location with more than 24DCs around? Right. Secondly, there is a big difference between being in a location where alot of other EP are present (outside of my actual group) and 24men ballgroups spamming aoes on top of each other stacking up being invulnerable to damage and provoking unbreakable ccs and delaying siege fire because of the lag train of death.

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

WRX wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

vortexman11 wrote: »

I chose 12 because it seems like the most balanced between 24 and 4. But I think I should of chosen other...

To me the ideal barrier would scale based on the amount of ultimate built up, starting at 200, all the way up to 1000. At 200 ultimate it would effect 4 people, then every 40 more ultimate allows it to hit one more person, up to 24 when 1000 ultimate is built up.

I actually like this idea a lot.

But the value of ultimate / additional player would need to be thoroughly tested.

Na, no way. Then you just have people sitting tagging PvE mobs for 5 minutes to get a full barrier? I understand the idea of being rewarded for extra ulti, but this is not how to do it.

Stupid is as stupid does. If players want to waste 5 minutes of their time just to get a max barrier up, go ahead. Would pretty much be insta-kicked from my raid group, though.

Exactly what I though. lol

Satiar wrote: »

I dunno, just seems like I'm not on the same page as everyone else. I fought 90 stacked EP last night. 90. tagged 96 on the flags at Bleakers. It took everything I had to actually win at Aleswell, multiple pushes, barriers, retreats and more pushes. Timed ult dumps with novas, negates and bats. Stacking as much mitigation, offense, and maneuverability as I could to beat a group much, much larger than the 18 I had with me.

And than to hear people just rag on about ball groups and talk about crippling my effectiveness. Jesus. You may not like being run over by raids like mine but well-coordinated groups like mine are literally the only counter to huge-ass zergs that doesn't include bringing your own huge ass zerg.

You guys

This next patch gonna be brutal. Numbers game, baby

Seems like EP has gone into the zerging direction the past week or two. And I know who does it. I haven't got them in my teamspeak yet to give them some advices and training but I'm looking forward into it next wednesday. Gonna show them that not only numbers can crush larger numbers. This zerging mentality has to stop.

DannyLV702

24

Do barriers stack??

Satiar

24

DannyLV702 wrote: »

Do barriers stack??

No. Not for over a year.

Erondil

12

Main problem I see with barrier capped at 24 is that its not reduced by AoE caps the same way damage is, so its in fact way more damage reduction than its supposed to be and also a big incentive to stacking up. If zos doesnt want to apply to barrier the same aoe cap scaling than damage AoE, the "hardcap" of barrier needs to be reduced. 12 seems to be a sweet spot, still a very good "oh crap" button for groups of any size, but a full raid will have to pop 2 barriers instead of one when needed, so wouldnt be able to have barrier up 24/7 contrary to what they have now.

WRX

12

Im glad 24 mans won't be able to constantly mitigate all damage through AoE caps and barriers.

I said it back during summer (granted the game literally didn't work at the time), that mitigating 50% damage from AoE caps on a barrier, is dumb.

Ill feel pretty confident a coordinated 8-12 man can effectively and continually wipe a similar 24 man with the up coming barrier changes. Not ideal, but its closer to favoring good players than we have had since dynamic ulti gen.

As said, I am pretty sure siege effects not being able to be purged is something that can not happen. Ill keep my fingers crossed.

WRX

12

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

WRX wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

vortexman11 wrote: »

I chose 12 because it seems like the most balanced between 24 and 4. But I think I should of chosen other...

To me the ideal barrier would scale based on the amount of ultimate built up, starting at 200, all the way up to 1000. At 200 ultimate it would effect 4 people, then every 40 more ultimate allows it to hit one more person, up to 24 when 1000 ultimate is built up.

I actually like this idea a lot.

But the value of ultimate / additional player would need to be thoroughly tested.

Na, no way. Then you just have people sitting tagging PvE mobs for 5 minutes to get a full barrier? I understand the idea of being rewarded for extra ulti, but this is not how to do it.

Stupid is as stupid does. If players want to waste 5 minutes of their time just to get a max barrier up, go ahead. Would pretty much be insta-kicked from my raid group, though.

Dunno what raid that is. But I can guarantee you that people will do it, entire raids will do it.

I'm good.

Satiar

24

frozywozy wrote: »

Seems like EP has gone into the zerging direction the past week or two. And I know who does it. I haven't got them in my teamspeak yet to give them some advices and training but I'm looking forward into it next wednesday. Gonna show them that not only numbers can crush larger numbers. This zerging mentality has to stop.

It's not new, everyone does it and always has. I just don't bring it up often.

The point is that a well-coordinated group can still overcome numbers like that if they play well and their enemies are... well... stupid. Really stupid.

WRX wrote: »

Im glad 24 mans won't be able to constantly mitigate all damage through AoE caps and barriers.

I said it back during summer (granted the game literally didn't work at the time), that mitigating 50% damage from AoE caps on a barrier, is dumb.

Ill feel pretty confident a coordinated 8-12 man can effectively wipe a 24 man with the up coming barrier changes. Not ideal, but its closer to favoring good players than we have had since dynamic ulti gen.

As said, I am pretty sure siege effects not being able to be purged is something that can not happen. Ill keep my fingers crossed.

You can already do that, if you play well. Asking for mechanics to be nerfed so that enemies are easier to beat is literally what got us from "ze good old days" to now. A twelve man bomb is incredibly effective, a 24 man raid probably only has about 12 full DPS ults (the rest dedicated to Barriers, Novas, Negates, etc). If you can't bomb 24 people with 12 and win right now, something is wrong but it's not the game.

WRX

12

Satiar wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Seems like EP has gone into the zerging direction the past week or two. And I know who does it. I haven't got them in my teamspeak yet to give them some advices and training but I'm looking forward into it next wednesday. Gonna show them that not only numbers can crush larger numbers. This zerging mentality has to stop.

It's not new, everyone does it and always has. I just don't bring it up often.

The point is that a well-coordinated group can still overcome numbers like that if they play well and their enemies are... well... stupid. Really stupid.

WRX wrote: »

Im glad 24 mans won't be able to constantly mitigate all damage through AoE caps and barriers.

I said it back during summer (granted the game literally didn't work at the time), that mitigating 50% damage from AoE caps on a barrier, is dumb.

Ill feel pretty confident a coordinated 8-12 man can effectively wipe a 24 man with the up coming barrier changes. Not ideal, but its closer to favoring good players than we have had since dynamic ulti gen.

As said, I am pretty sure siege effects not being able to be purged is something that can not happen. Ill keep my fingers crossed.

You can already do that, if you play well. Asking for mechanics to be nerfed so that enemies are easier to beat is literally what got us from "ze good old days" to now. A twelve man bomb is incredibly effective, a 24 man raid probably only has about 12 full DPS ults (the rest dedicated to Barriers, Novas, Negates, etc). If you can't bomb 24 people with 12 and win right now, something is wrong but it's not the game.

Im not talking about bombs. Im talking about, straight up beating them down because 24 mans get a much larger benefit from barrier than any other ultimate in he game, hands down.

Bombing gameplay has its place, but its not my favorite.

And no, this situation is not what got us where we are now. This is being done to stop the insistent barrier spam that saves groups when they make a mistake, and in turn should of died. If they do the "smart" mechanics, its now reactionary and not a complete savior.

This change honestly needed to happen along time ago.

BRogueNZ

12

lower the cost if its going to be less effective, I'd be happy with that exchange

Satiar

24

WRX wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Seems like EP has gone into the zerging direction the past week or two. And I know who does it. I haven't got them in my teamspeak yet to give them some advices and training but I'm looking forward into it next wednesday. Gonna show them that not only numbers can crush larger numbers. This zerging mentality has to stop.

It's not new, everyone does it and always has. I just don't bring it up often.

The point is that a well-coordinated group can still overcome numbers like that if they play well and their enemies are... well... stupid. Really stupid.

WRX wrote: »

Im glad 24 mans won't be able to constantly mitigate all damage through AoE caps and barriers.

I said it back during summer (granted the game literally didn't work at the time), that mitigating 50% damage from AoE caps on a barrier, is dumb.

Ill feel pretty confident a coordinated 8-12 man can effectively wipe a 24 man with the up coming barrier changes. Not ideal, but its closer to favoring good players than we have had since dynamic ulti gen.

As said, I am pretty sure siege effects not being able to be purged is something that can not happen. Ill keep my fingers crossed.

You can already do that, if you play well. Asking for mechanics to be nerfed so that enemies are easier to beat is literally what got us from "ze good old days" to now. A twelve man bomb is incredibly effective, a 24 man raid probably only has about 12 full DPS ults (the rest dedicated to Barriers, Novas, Negates, etc). If you can't bomb 24 people with 12 and win right now, something is wrong but it's not the game.

Im not talking about bombs. Im talking about, straight up beating them down because 24 mans get a much larger benefit from barrier than any other ultimate in he game, hands down.

Bombing gameplay has its place, but its not my favorite.

And no, this situation is not what got us where we are now. This is being done to stop the insistent barrier spam that saves groups when they make a mistake, and in turn should of died. If they do the "smart" mechanics, its now reactionary and not a complete savior.

This change honestly needed to happen along time ago.

Still not gonna happen.

Fact is that there's probably... maybe... 3-4 groups in the game you wouldn't be able to take on 12v24 now? Those same groups aren't magically going to start wiping to you without barrier, an elite group fighting an elite group the bigger one will have the advantage, every time. So I dunno what you're on about, you'll be beating down the same groups you're used to beating down, the good groups always adapt. It's kinda odd to hear this coming from you, considering how hard you always leaned on past metas (negate meta ring a bell?), and now act like barriers have been this unique crutch.

And you can talk barrier spam, but you should know as well as anyone that in a group fight it's usually just 1-2 barriers. Intro barrier + secondary for insurance. Fights like rarely last long enough for me to pop more than 2 barriers. Where barriers matter is keeps, where fights are long and you're constantly fighting in enemy siege and probably heavily outnumbered as well. This is where I mostly care about barriers/purge/siege because keep fights would be nightmares with siege buffs and Purge/barrier nerfs.

Manoekin

6

frozywozy wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Brian and wroebl have put forward significant dmg increases and survivability nerfs for 24men ballgroups, I really haven't seen them talk about counter improvements for mitigation and survivability. If anyone thinks that all of the proposed changes coupled together isn't going to result in players just being blown up quicker for every playstyle and group size, I question their capacity for foresight.

Here, fixed it for you

Manoekin wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

It's funny how you guys think that veils and negate will be useless because you cannot stand still. You are over exaggerating and getting a bit ridiculous here. The time it takes usually to wipe an enemy group with a well done negate is a matter of a few seconds. Standing still for a few seconds or moving constantly won't change much against one or two siege volleys. lol

Anyway, the way the game works right now, with a 24men ball group roaming inside a keep , most sieges don't even work. So I would not worry too much about sieges until they fix performances.

Even as it is now, against any force worth fighting standing still is death. Buffing damage and siege while taking away mobility enhances that to a rediculous degree.

@Manoekin Would you elaborate why you feel barriers should be at 6? With the coming changes I'm really surprised you're on that side of the argument, I'd love to hear your PoV on this.

I'll be able to mitigate siege damage with my build. I was already preparing for the next patch using Siege shield and it works great. My group already runs a low amount of barriers, too. Half the time I call for them I don't get one. Hell half of the time we only have like 2 healers. We are still learning, but we go in and out of our bombs a lot now to make up for not having a bunch of barriers. We know we can't just stand there and hope to wipe numbers double our size because we can't rotate mitigation and heals. TBH I like it more that way. When we had a full raid defending our guildmate's Emp it was boring for me. I didn't have to worry about anything, and not even lag really. I could just go out in the lag and come back basically unscathed.

IMO Barrier the way it is now (even though I love it) dumbs the game down and doesn't encourage people in the group to be more than just a cog in the machine. That's not even me hating on large groups, just how barrier works for groups of any size I feel like.

I would still use it at 6cap, just differently. 12 would be a good middle ground though.

Also, with the purge change I can't see them keeping siege effects unpurgeable. I also expect them to do something about the low TTK that somewhat balances with this change, and helps improve capabilities that certain classes have with survival.

Omg well said Manoe, best post 2016! Glad to see someone who used to talk against siege damage finally realizing how great siege shield is.

Not that I agree increasing siege damage is a good thing. Just minding that it's coming no matter what. People still melt fighting under oils, they just don't melt from only oils.

Satiar wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

It's funny how you guys think that veils and negate will be useless because you cannot stand still. You are over exaggerating and getting a bit ridiculous here. The time it takes usually to wipe an enemy group with a well done negate is a matter of a few seconds. Standing still for a few seconds or moving constantly won't change much against one or two siege volleys. lol

Anyway, the way the game works right now, with a 24men ball group roaming inside a keep , most sieges don't even work. So I would not worry too much about sieges until they fix performances.

Even as it is now, against any force worth fighting standing still is death. Buffing damage and siege while taking away mobility enhances that to a rediculous degree.

@Manoekin Would you elaborate why you feel barriers should be at 6? With the coming changes I'm really surprised you're on that side of the argument, I'd love to hear your PoV on this.

I'll be able to mitigate siege damage with my build. I was already preparing for the next patch using Siege shield and it works great. My group already runs a low amount of barriers, too. Half the time I call for them I don't get one. Hell half of the time we only have like 2 healers. We are still learning, but we go in and out of our bombs a lot now to make up for not having a bunch of barriers. We know we can't just stand there and hope to wipe numbers double our size because we can't rotate mitigation and heals. TBH I like it more that way. When we had a full raid defending our guildmate's Emp it was boring for me. I didn't have to worry about anything, and not even lag really. I could just go out in the lag and come back basically unscathed.

IMO Barrier the way it is now (even though I love it) dumbs the game down and doesn't encourage people in the group to be more than just a cog in the machine. That's not even me hating on large groups, just how barrier works for groups of any size I feel like.

I would still use it at 6cap, just differently. 12 would be a good middle ground though.

Also, with the purge change I can't see them keeping siege effects unpurgeable. I also expect them to do something about the low TTK that somewhat balances with this change, and helps improve capabilities that certain classes have with survival.

Ok.

Firstly, your build may be great against siege damage, but that's because it isn't buffed yet. And I'm not super worried about the straight damage as I am about the unpurgable effects (which are currently still what is coming). Sure your build is tanky. How tanky is it when you have no stamina, and are snared and can't move? How tanky is your group in that situation when you can't even rely on an emergency barrier to let you try to get the fight under control?

The key part of your paragraph about defending was the part about defending. Defending is easy, and it will only become easier. If you're defending an emp keep with an emp and a full raid and all the pug support there.... yeah, it's going to be easy mode. That's not a knock at you, that's just how it is. The night you were defending emp, we had amazing open field fights with you, it was a lot of fun.

As to barrier specifically, I'd argue that currently it does the opposite. The easiest thing in the world to do is bomb a group. Proxes, bats, GO. Done. Those fights feel good but they don't satisfy. Barrier is what tends to keep most fights from becoming that. The best fights I've had with you or Haxus or anyone else that can give me a run for my money are the fights where initial bombs are mitigated, and it becomes a battle of attrition and maneuvering. Right now, bombs are strong but they aren't an I Win. I can pop a barrier or two, spread out, get re-situated, push back. Without mitigation it's just going to be "who can bomb who first". I don't see any other way. First one to get their DPS ults off wins. That's dumbed down gameplay.

The reason I can't believe you're for this is you know how fights are now. Most of them are done inside 10 seconds. Sometimes less. And our solution to this is to remove mitigation and further decrease TTK? That's crazy to me.

There's a few things we can talk about once I get off work.

As for my point of view... I've survived plenty bombs without rattling off 5 barriers. If you maneuver yourself into a situation, or are slow enough to react where the only option is to rotate enough barriers so that the other group's bomb just has no effect at all... I think you should have died in that situation honestly. We will figure out a way to get through breeches and take well-defended keeps. I can't imagine a keep being harder to take than a keep with 20 ground oils all over the top and back flag.

Satiar

24

Manoekin wrote: »

There's a few things we can talk about once I get off work.

As for my point of view... I've survived plenty bombs without rattling off 5 barriers. If you maneuver yourself into a situation, or are slow enough to react where the only option is to rotate enough barriers so that the other group's bomb just has no effect at all... I think you should have died in that situation honestly. We will figure out a way to get through breeches and take well-defended keeps. I can't imagine a keep being harder to take than a keep with 20 ground oils all over the top and back flag.

I rarely get in a situation that's so bad I have to cycle 5 barriers but the burst and CC is also so manageable that I'm alive long enough to actually hit more than 2 barriers. If they can hit me hard enough to get me to panic, they can wipe me before I'm able to really get the cycle rolling. EDIT: To clarify, the whole idea of a barrier is to give you a moment -- even a moment -- to kite, or to re-condense, or to have a fighting chance of defending yourself. TTK is so freaking low already, why do you want it lower?

The only situation where it really comes up is, again, in keep fights. Where you're fighting outnumbered and against an entrenched enemy, and you're not able to stand still in ground mitigation because siege bombs coming at you from a position of safety. That's where I'd argue barriers are a necessity, as well as purges and the ability to remove snares/roots.

WRX

12

Satiar wrote: »

WRX wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Seems like EP has gone into the zerging direction the past week or two. And I know who does it. I haven't got them in my teamspeak yet to give them some advices and training but I'm looking forward into it next wednesday. Gonna show them that not only numbers can crush larger numbers. This zerging mentality has to stop.

It's not new, everyone does it and always has. I just don't bring it up often.

The point is that a well-coordinated group can still overcome numbers like that if they play well and their enemies are... well... stupid. Really stupid.

WRX wrote: »

Im glad 24 mans won't be able to constantly mitigate all damage through AoE caps and barriers.

I said it back during summer (granted the game literally didn't work at the time), that mitigating 50% damage from AoE caps on a barrier, is dumb.

Ill feel pretty confident a coordinated 8-12 man can effectively wipe a 24 man with the up coming barrier changes. Not ideal, but its closer to favoring good players than we have had since dynamic ulti gen.

As said, I am pretty sure siege effects not being able to be purged is something that can not happen. Ill keep my fingers crossed.

You can already do that, if you play well. Asking for mechanics to be nerfed so that enemies are easier to beat is literally what got us from "ze good old days" to now. A twelve man bomb is incredibly effective, a 24 man raid probably only has about 12 full DPS ults (the rest dedicated to Barriers, Novas, Negates, etc). If you can't bomb 24 people with 12 and win right now, something is wrong but it's not the game.

Im not talking about bombs. Im talking about, straight up beating them down because 24 mans get a much larger benefit from barrier than any other ultimate in he game, hands down.

Bombing gameplay has its place, but its not my favorite.

And no, this situation is not what got us where we are now. This is being done to stop the insistent barrier spam that saves groups when they make a mistake, and in turn should of died. If they do the "smart" mechanics, its now reactionary and not a complete savior.

This change honestly needed to happen along time ago.

Still not gonna happen.

Fact is that there's probably... maybe... 3-4 groups in the game you wouldn't be able to take on 12v24 now? Those same groups aren't magically going to start wiping to you without barrier, an elite group fighting an elite group the bigger one will have the advantage, every time. So I dunno what you're on about, you'll be beating down the same groups you're used to beating down, the good groups always adapt. It's kinda odd to hear this coming from you, considering how hard you always leaned on past metas (negate meta ring a bell?), and now act like barriers have been this unique crutch.

And you can talk barrier spam, but you should know as well as anyone that in a group fight it's usually just 1-2 barriers. Intro barrier + secondary for insurance. Fights like rarely last long enough for me to pop more than 2 barriers. Where barriers matter is keeps, where fights are long and you're constantly fighting in enemy siege and probably heavily outnumbered as well. This is where I mostly care about barriers/purge/siege because keep fights would be nightmares with siege buffs and Purge/barrier nerfs.

Sure, elite groups will be harder than pugs, but I do think you will see the top guilds struggling with it, because it has been such a crutch for all groups. We will just have to see, but I am optimistic to see guilds now focusing more on players keeping themselves alive individually as opposed to just being a cog. I may be totally wrong, but we will find out.

And I dont get the negate comment? Sure, Deci ran with a lot of negates when it was effective just like we did barrier/boneshield stack, and won more than our fair share. But I will be the first to admit that the negate meta was completely ridiculous, just like I am saying barrier is ridiculous and it got ALOT worse with 2.0.

Anyways, something we can agree on. I would absolutely love to have seen negate remove the effect of barrier from anyone negated. Along with possibly a 2nd assault ulti that did something similar. I am a fan of counter playstyles, but that is not even an option.

EDIT: Negate should also still be the preeminent way to control ground in PvP. I dont want heals or regen, but I still think it should not just be a cast and then its over. For 5 or so seconds, it should be there and control that ground until its gone or negated. Its a good counter to numbers.

MormondPayne_EP

Zheg wrote: »

Went with 18. For the ultimates cost, 12 or less makes it questionable to even warrant a slot. With the full court press on siege changes, nerfs to purge, nerfs to barrier, battles with already ridiculously low ttk are going to just come down to who can attack first, and who has more devouring bats. Healers are going to have a rough go when a single oil catapult eliminates half or a third of their stamina in one shot, so don't expect them to keep you alive.

We'll have to see if these nerfs come with reductions in cost as well, or are supplemented with increased survivability through other changes, but so far it's looking like wheeler has joined wrobel's amatuer hour.

Here's an idea, stop zerging...

Just saying.

The Siege buffs cannot come soon enough, the ball groups need to be broken up... just like the big banks! #FeeltheBERN

Ghost-Shot

18

MormondPayne_EP wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Went with 18. For the ultimates cost, 12 or less makes it questionable to even warrant a slot. With the full court press on siege changes, nerfs to purge, nerfs to barrier, battles with already ridiculously low ttk are going to just come down to who can attack first, and who has more devouring bats. Healers are going to have a rough go when a single oil catapult eliminates half or a third of their stamina in one shot, so don't expect them to keep you alive.

We'll have to see if these nerfs come with reductions in cost as well, or are supplemented with increased survivability through other changes, but so far it's looking like wheeler has joined wrobel's amatuer hour.

Here's an idea, stop zerging...

Just saying.

The Siege buffs cannot come soon enough, the ball groups need to be broken up... just like the big banks! #FeeltheBERN

You are still going to get rekt, but please send what few people you seem to have to operate siege so we can kill you 1 at a time.

Elong

.