Suggested NB changes

bowmanz607

Just thought of this...

What about getting rid of the secondary effects on ambush and adding an HOT? Then Stam nb could have some sort of a class heal.

Angarato

some thoughts:
- Suprise attack: if you remove the armor debuff from SA you need to give something in return. also the stun is fine cause it only works out of stealth and is not a big deal. i rather be stunned than feared and they cant do both.
- Grim focus stamina morph should do physical damage
- empower on ambush is fine if they give it a minimum range or do something else to reduce the spam. perhaps reduce the damage but add a snare like stampede.
- Mass hysteria is fine. if anything i'd say remove the snare not the damage debuff
-

Smokescales

I don't like some of these suggestions tbh, things like surprise attack should lose its debuff because you can get it from mark target, or power extraction lose its buff because you can get it from rally or hidden blade is wrong train of thought imo. What happened to build diversity? Why should we all have to equip exact same skills or weapons to get these buffs and debuffs, there should be diversity so we all aren't pushed towards playing exactly same characters.

bowmanz607

Smokescales wrote: »

I don't like some of these suggestions tbh, things like surprise attack should lose its debuff because you can get it from mark target, or power extraction lose its buff because you can get it from rally or hidden blade is wrong train of thought imo. What happened to build diversity? Why should we all have to equip exact same skills or weapons to get these buffs and debuffs, there should be diversity so we all aren't pushed towards playing exactly same characters.

I see your point. I would say that my thoughts on taking away the debuff on SA is more about the ability already being the strongest single target instant cast Stam dps. Adding even more damage seems silly to me. My reference to already having that debug elsewhere is more of a secondary thought.

I understand your concern with power extraction and diversity. When I was thinking about it my thoughts were that the only Stam build that would not have access to the buff would be a sword and board and a bow. I just find it very unlikely that a player would use that build effectivley. Not saying it is not possible though. Ofcourse then you have the other side that ya even if a player uses dw or 2h why should they have to use those respective skills for the buff when they have class skills? Taking away power extraction buff eliminates diversity. Which is a solid point also.

However, those other skills offer much more of an upside then power extraction. For instance, rally provides a heal and is self cast. Hidden blade is ranged and offers strong damage. Power extraction offers a low damage aoe. At a minimum this skill either needs to be changed to physical damage or increase the magic damage. Perhaps add a dot to it? Afterall, sap essence offers the buff and another healing effect. Why shouldn't power extraction be given the same treatment.

Overall, I understand your concern and it is certainly a valid one. Thoughts on the new suggestions I made for the ability?

Xvorg

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Smokescales wrote: »

I don't like some of these suggestions tbh, things like surprise attack should lose its debuff because you can get it from mark target, or power extraction lose its buff because you can get it from rally or hidden blade is wrong train of thought imo. What happened to build diversity? Why should we all have to equip exact same skills or weapons to get these buffs and debuffs, there should be diversity so we all aren't pushed towards playing exactly same characters.

I see your point. I would say that my thoughts on taking away the debuff on SA is more about the ability already being the strongest single target instant cast Stam dps. Adding even more damage seems silly to me. My reference to already having that debug elsewhere is more of a secondary thought.

Are you sure it is the strongest?

http://prntscr.com/9p7mph

http://prntscr.com/9p7nb9

If I put 2 NBs with the exact same build, in front to fight, one of them using ransack, and the other using SA, I'm not sure who of them will win

Ok, SA gives you major buffs through passives, but ransack is waaaaay cheaper. On top of that, the animation of ransack is faster than the animation of SA.

Ransack is available for everyone and it comes with the line that gives the second best gap closer in the game and one of the best stuns (power bash). Not to mention the great passives S/B has.

If you debuff SA, NBs will go for S/B and they will be equally, or even more lethal than now

bowmanz607

Xvorg wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Smokescales wrote: »

I don't like some of these suggestions tbh, things like surprise attack should lose its debuff because you can get it from mark target, or power extraction lose its buff because you can get it from rally or hidden blade is wrong train of thought imo. What happened to build diversity? Why should we all have to equip exact same skills or weapons to get these buffs and debuffs, there should be diversity so we all aren't pushed towards playing exactly same characters.

I see your point. I would say that my thoughts on taking away the debuff on SA is more about the ability already being the strongest single target instant cast Stam dps. Adding even more damage seems silly to me. My reference to already having that debug elsewhere is more of a secondary thought.

Are you sure it is the strongest?

http://prntscr.com/9p7mph

http://prntscr.com/9p7nb9

If I put 2 NBs with the exact same build, in front to fight, one of them using ransack, and the other using SA, I'm not sure who of them will win

Ok, SA gives you major buffs through passives, but ransack is waaaaay cheaper. On top of that, the animation of ransack is faster than the animation of SA.

Ransack is available for everyone and it comes with the line that gives the second best gap closer in the game and one of the best stuns (power bash). Not to mention the great passives S/B has.

If you debuff SA, NBs will go for S/B and they will be equally, or even more lethal than now

i do apologize for my statement. I am usually very careful about being too specific. I usually will try to stick to a more general statement such as "SA is one of strongest or the strongest..."

That said I would say that overall SA is getting more DPS. Additionally, it can be used with any weapon so is more versatile.

All that said, this thread is not about comparing and contrasting NB class skills with other skills. It is about balancing this class not others. As stated in my opening, The idea is that these suggested changes would come with other balancing to other skills and classes along with the champion tree. Perhaps ransack needs to be adjusted also for higher cost or something. IDk. that is a discussion for another thread.

O and your lionks are off. SA does physical damage.

FENGRUSH

NB gap closers should not be going through roll dodge as they do currently - that needs to be fixed. Same thing with toppling.

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

Honestly, I think NBs are fine. I play well with mine, and can play against them on any class really.

Ambush needs a minimum range. The root is a gap closer issue, but they can't be spammed like ambush. And people do it on purpose. A Nb in a group or with another will spam it to stop you doing anything while the other(s) do additional damage while you're defenceless.

All gap closers can be spammed if you know what your doing. Look at some of fengrush's videos where he dies. One video in particular shows one person spamming critrush for the win. The min. range will not and does not stop the spamming issue. Many players just need something fixed to point at and blame. Ambush seems like the biggest offender because there are more and more stam NB every day that use it. So the population of players using other gap closers is lowered and therefore less frequent.

There are reasons for this which lays into more issues ambush/lotus fan have - which wont be fixed because it requires reworking the skill. To tackle the first part, the gap closer issue of freezing everyone is a gap closer issue - it applies to all of them, it does need fixing badly. The difference with NB is they can spam these point blank, where as the others can be spammed on targets that are running or trying to create seperation.

What is worse about NBs is their ability to navigate across any terrain. Other gap closers can be avoided by quickly maneuvering around terrain or line of sighting. Nbs can effectively spam their gap closer and you can never get away from them - even running around corners. I dont believe they will fix this, because they dont know how to rebalance LoS on a skill that has never functioned with any. It just needs to be made weaker for its strengths to be considered balanced with others.

davey1107 wrote: »

You seem to be asking for the removal of a lot (or all) of the NB stun options. Stun is essential to the idea for the class - they've give up armor and defense, so the stun counterbalances this. If my NB can't stun, and loses armor debuffs, amd etc...I'm going to equip him with heavier gear and now I've got a tanky dps build that hides a lot.

In your post you mention balance. Here's the honest truth - players have trouble with NBs because they've loaded up their bars with all their class's goodies at the expense of the very effective NB counters. It's not that NBs are over powered, it's that players of other classes have made themselves underpowered in fighting them.

Surprise attack, ambush, etc aren't as effective if pitted against a build that has put at least one attribute point in health. Good lord...Templars and DKs are running around with barely 20k in health and then wondering why they're getting killed all the time. Build that canon out of steel, son...cause glass ain't working out for you...

This post is so bad - and wreaks of inexperience. Any and all experienced PvPers will paint you a pretty clear picture in terms of balance right now - NB has a lot in their favor. Skill combinations available, mechanics, both intended and broken ones, best passives. I mean this guy said NBs are giving up defense?????? What defense are you giving up? Is it that cloak functions as a disjoint and literally makes you invulnerable when first used, or is it that all of your healing crits for 100% when cloaked? Is it that you can purge all effects with a spammable cloak or what? Please tell me what defenses you had to give up to take on the hard task of playing a NB.


I respect your demeanor in the thread bowmanz - but to answer something you said about balance and not considering other classes - that is exactly what balance is. Considering them all. Another point I agree on is that other classes need options, tools, variety as well. We shouldnt balance through nerfing. But with that said, nightblades have an unbelieveable amount of buffs packed into pretty much all of their skills - its pretty much a joke that they get access to so many major buffs while having passives, disables, healing potential all in their favor.

There is a reason cyro is filled with nightblades - its not because theyre easy to play.. bad nightblades get blown away very quickly. Bad nightblades are also extremely effective when youre outnumbered because of broken gap closers. But most of the top tier guilds are running with nightblades now due to their passives, and burst potential being extremely strong. Theyre also the best solo gankers, and sort of the best in a lot of things. A class rebalance is coming - I dont have a lot of faith in it, but youre living in a NB dream of a patch. Please dont fool yourselves.

Xvorg

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Smokescales wrote: »

I don't like some of these suggestions tbh, things like surprise attack should lose its debuff because you can get it from mark target, or power extraction lose its buff because you can get it from rally or hidden blade is wrong train of thought imo. What happened to build diversity? Why should we all have to equip exact same skills or weapons to get these buffs and debuffs, there should be diversity so we all aren't pushed towards playing exactly same characters.

I see your point. I would say that my thoughts on taking away the debuff on SA is more about the ability already being the strongest single target instant cast Stam dps. Adding even more damage seems silly to me. My reference to already having that debug elsewhere is more of a secondary thought.

Are you sure it is the strongest?

http://prntscr.com/9p7mph

http://prntscr.com/9p7nb9

If I put 2 NBs with the exact same build, in front to fight, one of them using ransack, and the other using SA, I'm not sure who of them will win

Ok, SA gives you major buffs through passives, but ransack is waaaaay cheaper. On top of that, the animation of ransack is faster than the animation of SA.

Ransack is available for everyone and it comes with the line that gives the second best gap closer in the game and one of the best stuns (power bash). Not to mention the great passives S/B has.

If you debuff SA, NBs will go for S/B and they will be equally, or even more lethal than now

i do apologize for my statement. I am usually very careful about being too specific. I usually will try to stick to a more general statement such as "SA is one of strongest or the strongest..."

That said I would say that overall SA is getting more DPS. Additionally, it can be used with any weapon so is more versatile.

All that said, this thread is not about comparing and contrasting NB class skills with other skills. It is about balancing this class not others. As stated in my opening, The idea is that these suggested changes would come with other balancing to other skills and classes along with the champion tree. Perhaps ransack needs to be adjusted also for higher cost or something. IDk. that is a discussion for another thread.

O and your lionks are off. SA does physical damage.

What I mean is something someone stated above: take out the debuffs of SA will make clones war even worst than now. Currently a NB can go with DW, 2H, Bow and S/B if he wishes. Debuffing SA will make a lot of NBs to choose S/B as the default.

Apart from that, I showed you a skill that any class is able to use, which is cheaper than SA and that produce excelent results too. Under that PoV, what's the point on debuffing SA?

PS. IMHO the problem is not that magicka DKs are weak, neither Stamblades or stam knights are strong. The problem is Vigor. Take out Vigor from the game and automatically everything will be again more balanced. Stam for dmg and magicka for sustain and not Stam for dmg and sustain and magicka for farming.

bowmanz607

FENGRUSH wrote: »

NB gap closers should not be going through roll dodge as they do currently - that needs to be fixed. Same thing with toppling.

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

Honestly, I think NBs are fine. I play well with mine, and can play against them on any class really.

Ambush needs a minimum range. The root is a gap closer issue, but they can't be spammed like ambush. And people do it on purpose. A Nb in a group or with another will spam it to stop you doing anything while the other(s) do additional damage while you're defenceless.

All gap closers can be spammed if you know what your doing. Look at some of fengrush's videos where he dies. One video in particular shows one person spamming critrush for the win. The min. range will not and does not stop the spamming issue. Many players just need something fixed to point at and blame. Ambush seems like the biggest offender because there are more and more stam NB every day that use it. So the population of players using other gap closers is lowered and therefore less frequent.

There are reasons for this which lays into more issues ambush/lotus fan have - which wont be fixed because it requires reworking the skill. To tackle the first part, the gap closer issue of freezing everyone is a gap closer issue - it applies to all of them, it does need fixing badly. The difference with NB is they can spam these point blank, where as the others can be spammed on targets that are running or trying to create seperation.

What is worse about NBs is their ability to navigate across any terrain. Other gap closers can be avoided by quickly maneuvering around terrain or line of sighting. Nbs can effectively spam their gap closer and you can never get away from them - even running around corners. I dont believe they will fix this, because they dont know how to rebalance LoS on a skill that has never functioned with any. It just needs to be made weaker for its strengths to be considered balanced with others.

davey1107 wrote: »

You seem to be asking for the removal of a lot (or all) of the NB stun options. Stun is essential to the idea for the class - they've give up armor and defense, so the stun counterbalances this. If my NB can't stun, and loses armor debuffs, amd etc...I'm going to equip him with heavier gear and now I've got a tanky dps build that hides a lot.

In your post you mention balance. Here's the honest truth - players have trouble with NBs because they've loaded up their bars with all their class's goodies at the expense of the very effective NB counters. It's not that NBs are over powered, it's that players of other classes have made themselves underpowered in fighting them.

Surprise attack, ambush, etc aren't as effective if pitted against a build that has put at least one attribute point in health. Good lord...Templars and DKs are running around with barely 20k in health and then wondering why they're getting killed all the time. Build that canon out of steel, son...cause glass ain't working out for you...

This post is so bad - and wreaks of inexperience. Any and all experienced PvPers will paint you a pretty clear picture in terms of balance right now - NB has a lot in their favor. Skill combinations available, mechanics, both intended and broken ones, best passives. I mean this guy said NBs are giving up defense?????? What defense are you giving up? Is it that cloak functions as a disjoint and literally makes you invulnerable when first used, or is it that all of your healing crits for 100% when cloaked? Is it that you can purge all effects with a spammable cloak or what? Please tell me what defenses you had to give up to take on the hard task of playing a NB.


I respect your demeanor in the thread bowmanz - but to answer something you said about balance and not considering other classes - that is exactly what balance is. Considering them all. Another point I agree on is that other classes need options, tools, variety as well. We shouldnt balance through nerfing. But with that said, nightblades have an unbelieveable amount of buffs packed into pretty much all of their skills - its pretty much a joke that they get access to so many major buffs while having passives, disables, healing potential all in their favor.

There is a reason cyro is filled with nightblades - its not because theyre easy to play.. bad nightblades get blown away very quickly. Bad nightblades are also extremely effective when youre outnumbered because of broken gap closers. But most of the top tier guilds are running with nightblades now due to their passives, and burst potential being extremely strong. Theyre also the best solo gankers, and sort of the best in a lot of things. A class rebalance is coming - I dont have a lot of faith in it, but youre living in a NB dream of a patch. Please dont fool yourselves.

Thank you for your comment. Much appreciated.

I do agree with the issues you mentioned regarding ambush/lotus being the biggest offender of the stun along with dodgeroll and LOS issues. Perhaps i was being overly optimistic when when talking about changes coming to the game hoping that these issues would be part of the overall change. Only time will tell, but based on history it is more unlikely then likely. I do agree that something has to change regarding those issues. ALthough changing the skill is the easy way to do it, It should be a game balancing issue not something a particular class should have to be faulted for. But as I believe you mentioned the long and more complicated road is unlikely. I would hope that there is some other "fix" outside of giving a min range.

FENGRUSH

bowmanz607 wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

NB gap closers should not be going through roll dodge as they do currently - that needs to be fixed. Same thing with toppling.

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

Honestly, I think NBs are fine. I play well with mine, and can play against them on any class really.

Ambush needs a minimum range. The root is a gap closer issue, but they can't be spammed like ambush. And people do it on purpose. A Nb in a group or with another will spam it to stop you doing anything while the other(s) do additional damage while you're defenceless.

All gap closers can be spammed if you know what your doing. Look at some of fengrush's videos where he dies. One video in particular shows one person spamming critrush for the win. The min. range will not and does not stop the spamming issue. Many players just need something fixed to point at and blame. Ambush seems like the biggest offender because there are more and more stam NB every day that use it. So the population of players using other gap closers is lowered and therefore less frequent.

There are reasons for this which lays into more issues ambush/lotus fan have - which wont be fixed because it requires reworking the skill. To tackle the first part, the gap closer issue of freezing everyone is a gap closer issue - it applies to all of them, it does need fixing badly. The difference with NB is they can spam these point blank, where as the others can be spammed on targets that are running or trying to create seperation.

What is worse about NBs is their ability to navigate across any terrain. Other gap closers can be avoided by quickly maneuvering around terrain or line of sighting. Nbs can effectively spam their gap closer and you can never get away from them - even running around corners. I dont believe they will fix this, because they dont know how to rebalance LoS on a skill that has never functioned with any. It just needs to be made weaker for its strengths to be considered balanced with others.

davey1107 wrote: »

You seem to be asking for the removal of a lot (or all) of the NB stun options. Stun is essential to the idea for the class - they've give up armor and defense, so the stun counterbalances this. If my NB can't stun, and loses armor debuffs, amd etc...I'm going to equip him with heavier gear and now I've got a tanky dps build that hides a lot.

In your post you mention balance. Here's the honest truth - players have trouble with NBs because they've loaded up their bars with all their class's goodies at the expense of the very effective NB counters. It's not that NBs are over powered, it's that players of other classes have made themselves underpowered in fighting them.

Surprise attack, ambush, etc aren't as effective if pitted against a build that has put at least one attribute point in health. Good lord...Templars and DKs are running around with barely 20k in health and then wondering why they're getting killed all the time. Build that canon out of steel, son...cause glass ain't working out for you...

This post is so bad - and wreaks of inexperience. Any and all experienced PvPers will paint you a pretty clear picture in terms of balance right now - NB has a lot in their favor. Skill combinations available, mechanics, both intended and broken ones, best passives. I mean this guy said NBs are giving up defense?????? What defense are you giving up? Is it that cloak functions as a disjoint and literally makes you invulnerable when first used, or is it that all of your healing crits for 100% when cloaked? Is it that you can purge all effects with a spammable cloak or what? Please tell me what defenses you had to give up to take on the hard task of playing a NB.


I respect your demeanor in the thread bowmanz - but to answer something you said about balance and not considering other classes - that is exactly what balance is. Considering them all. Another point I agree on is that other classes need options, tools, variety as well. We shouldnt balance through nerfing. But with that said, nightblades have an unbelieveable amount of buffs packed into pretty much all of their skills - its pretty much a joke that they get access to so many major buffs while having passives, disables, healing potential all in their favor.

There is a reason cyro is filled with nightblades - its not because theyre easy to play.. bad nightblades get blown away very quickly. Bad nightblades are also extremely effective when youre outnumbered because of broken gap closers. But most of the top tier guilds are running with nightblades now due to their passives, and burst potential being extremely strong. Theyre also the best solo gankers, and sort of the best in a lot of things. A class rebalance is coming - I dont have a lot of faith in it, but youre living in a NB dream of a patch. Please dont fool yourselves.

Thank you for your comment. Much appreciated.

I do agree with the issues you mentioned regarding ambush/lotus being the biggest offender of the stun along with dodgeroll and LOS issues. Perhaps i was being overly optimistic when when talking about changes coming to the game hoping that these issues would be part of the overall change. Only time will tell, but based on history it is more unlikely then likely. I do agree that something has to change regarding those issues. ALthough changing the skill is the easy way to do it, It should be a game balancing issue not something a particular class should have to be faulted for. But as I believe you mentioned the long and more complicated road is unlikely. I would hope that there is some other "fix" outside of giving a min range.

I agree - I dont think min range will fix or do that much in all honesty. Its not even my issue with ambush being 'spammed'. My issue is how it defies line of sight, because thats an important part of how everyone plays in every environment, and being that it acts as a teleport - it ignores all of that. I dont mind it being a teleport, but the lack of line of sight check just makes it able to go anywhere and everywhere - this is why it tracks players through doors.

bowmanz607

FENGRUSH wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

NB gap closers should not be going through roll dodge as they do currently - that needs to be fixed. Same thing with toppling.

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

Honestly, I think NBs are fine. I play well with mine, and can play against them on any class really.

Ambush needs a minimum range. The root is a gap closer issue, but they can't be spammed like ambush. And people do it on purpose. A Nb in a group or with another will spam it to stop you doing anything while the other(s) do additional damage while you're defenceless.

All gap closers can be spammed if you know what your doing. Look at some of fengrush's videos where he dies. One video in particular shows one person spamming critrush for the win. The min. range will not and does not stop the spamming issue. Many players just need something fixed to point at and blame. Ambush seems like the biggest offender because there are more and more stam NB every day that use it. So the population of players using other gap closers is lowered and therefore less frequent.

There are reasons for this which lays into more issues ambush/lotus fan have - which wont be fixed because it requires reworking the skill. To tackle the first part, the gap closer issue of freezing everyone is a gap closer issue - it applies to all of them, it does need fixing badly. The difference with NB is they can spam these point blank, where as the others can be spammed on targets that are running or trying to create seperation.

What is worse about NBs is their ability to navigate across any terrain. Other gap closers can be avoided by quickly maneuvering around terrain or line of sighting. Nbs can effectively spam their gap closer and you can never get away from them - even running around corners. I dont believe they will fix this, because they dont know how to rebalance LoS on a skill that has never functioned with any. It just needs to be made weaker for its strengths to be considered balanced with others.

davey1107 wrote: »

You seem to be asking for the removal of a lot (or all) of the NB stun options. Stun is essential to the idea for the class - they've give up armor and defense, so the stun counterbalances this. If my NB can't stun, and loses armor debuffs, amd etc...I'm going to equip him with heavier gear and now I've got a tanky dps build that hides a lot.

In your post you mention balance. Here's the honest truth - players have trouble with NBs because they've loaded up their bars with all their class's goodies at the expense of the very effective NB counters. It's not that NBs are over powered, it's that players of other classes have made themselves underpowered in fighting them.

Surprise attack, ambush, etc aren't as effective if pitted against a build that has put at least one attribute point in health. Good lord...Templars and DKs are running around with barely 20k in health and then wondering why they're getting killed all the time. Build that canon out of steel, son...cause glass ain't working out for you...

This post is so bad - and wreaks of inexperience. Any and all experienced PvPers will paint you a pretty clear picture in terms of balance right now - NB has a lot in their favor. Skill combinations available, mechanics, both intended and broken ones, best passives. I mean this guy said NBs are giving up defense?????? What defense are you giving up? Is it that cloak functions as a disjoint and literally makes you invulnerable when first used, or is it that all of your healing crits for 100% when cloaked? Is it that you can purge all effects with a spammable cloak or what? Please tell me what defenses you had to give up to take on the hard task of playing a NB.


I respect your demeanor in the thread bowmanz - but to answer something you said about balance and not considering other classes - that is exactly what balance is. Considering them all. Another point I agree on is that other classes need options, tools, variety as well. We shouldnt balance through nerfing. But with that said, nightblades have an unbelieveable amount of buffs packed into pretty much all of their skills - its pretty much a joke that they get access to so many major buffs while having passives, disables, healing potential all in their favor.

There is a reason cyro is filled with nightblades - its not because theyre easy to play.. bad nightblades get blown away very quickly. Bad nightblades are also extremely effective when youre outnumbered because of broken gap closers. But most of the top tier guilds are running with nightblades now due to their passives, and burst potential being extremely strong. Theyre also the best solo gankers, and sort of the best in a lot of things. A class rebalance is coming - I dont have a lot of faith in it, but youre living in a NB dream of a patch. Please dont fool yourselves.

Thank you for your comment. Much appreciated.

I do agree with the issues you mentioned regarding ambush/lotus being the biggest offender of the stun along with dodgeroll and LOS issues. Perhaps i was being overly optimistic when when talking about changes coming to the game hoping that these issues would be part of the overall change. Only time will tell, but based on history it is more unlikely then likely. I do agree that something has to change regarding those issues. ALthough changing the skill is the easy way to do it, It should be a game balancing issue not something a particular class should have to be faulted for. But as I believe you mentioned the long and more complicated road is unlikely. I would hope that there is some other "fix" outside of giving a min range.

I agree - I dont think min range will fix or do that much in all honesty. Its not even my issue with ambush being 'spammed'. My issue is how it defies line of sight, because thats an important part of how everyone plays in every environment, and being that it acts as a teleport - it ignores all of that. I dont mind it being a teleport, but the lack of line of sight check just makes it able to go anywhere and everywhere - this is why it tracks players through doors.

o and i forgot to mention. In your previous comment you mentioned that balance is considering all classes.

I do agree with this. However, i believe balancing comes in many forms. Balance on one level can be balancing one skill int eh class with the overall class in mind while then continuing to balance a class with other classes in mind to make sure they are all balanced to one another. (hope that makes sense).

My point being that there are different stages of balancing. In this thread I am trying to focus on balancing the skills within the class properly. The idea being that this would be a back drop to overall game balancing that should occur.

Again, i do agree that in the end balancing does need to come with weighing all class against each other to have a proper balance. I am only trying to get a part of that balancing puzzle solved.

Father_X_Zombie

Araxleon wrote: »

I do feel your points were a bit bias at times but we all are bias when it comes to our main play style.

I agree with everything but (some of these I disagree with you on or view it differently)
- Lotus Fan
- Ambush
- Reapers mark / Piercing Mark
- Concealed Weapon
- Surprise Attack
- Mass Hysteria
- Manifestation of Terror
- Soul Shred
- Strife
- Agony
- Debilitate
- Summon Shade
- Dark Cloak
[Wall of text incoming]

Lotus Fan - I think the dot needs an increase, or more initial damage on AOE, Its used mainly because its a gap closer and snares (its other secondary effects don't matter) atm the dot also doesn't effect the target you hit either. (I think this needs a very small buff / make more viable)

Ambush - I think the empower should be removed, but it needs a secondary effect or it wouldn't be equal to lotus fan, I suggest a improved stun out of stealth or maybe a "reduce cost" on next skill used after ambush, but I do agree on it not needed empower.

Reapers Mark / Piercing Mark - Piercing Mark is pretty much useless in PVE, I think something should be added to make it a viable choice in PVE also (I dont know what, Im just pointing that out)
Reapers mark needs a buff, its horrible compared to piercing mark, (yes it can be viable and good, but compared to piercing mark its really bad for what you give up) I think the duration should be slightly increased or kept the same, (needs testing for balance) but either way they should add 40% speed boost to the buff on kill. (This makes it on par with piercing mark in terms of being a good skill)

Concealed Weapon - I think they should decrease the stun time on currently its a tad bit high, otherwise I think it having a stun is needed, otherwise we would only have fear, where other classes have atleast 2 stuns in there skill set naturally (Its a major skill in the magicka NB playstyle too)

Surprise Attack - They should remove the debuff it applies I agree with that, but once again it would need a secondary effect (most strong single target skills in game have one) maybe increased damage out of cloak/stealth? (It would need something)

Mass Hysteria - Im pretty sure the damage debuff/snare only happen if your enemy doesnt CC break, which is quite rare. (though I haven't tested it in awhile, I will test soon and update)

Manifestation of Terror - hmmm I like it, I would like if it could be a ranged trap, like fire rune.

Should Shred - Soul tether is fine, other morph is horrible, no damage and only heals allies (not even yourself!?) needs a major change.

Strife - I view this very differently then most people and I main magicka NB, this skill is way to cheap it is possible to make it cost 200, even the normal cost of 900ish is crazy Its way to cheap instant cast and heals + hits hard. This skill specifically is not balanced because of its cost alone (my current damage on it is 9k non buffed) I suggest (bare with me) increased cost but also increase the healing you receive more then it currently is, this skill should pretty much cost closer to conceal weapon. (this is just my suggestion to make up for increased cost overall, it does need a cost increase)

Agony - It needs a buff, its amazing for PVE but useless for PVP you will never stun someone for 30 secs, the will recovery stam within that timeframe no matter how bad their regen is.(I know a few tricks with it that are awesome, but it still isn't worth slotting) I suggest 2 things (the 2nd is optional) 1. make agony an AOE stun, where multiple people get effected, then it would be viable and 2. make it go through block like petrify (like I said this is optional) I think it should really be an AOE stun though. (might effect PVE balance though, may be too powerful)

Debilitate - horrible, completely change it please. (I can go into detail if people ask, but I feel its obvious)

Summon Shade - I would like the skill to have improved mechanics, show your AOE teleport range and have the skill tell you when your in/out of range of teleport or allow you to cast the skill without a target.

Dark Cloak - Its a MAJOR part of magicka NB, as much as perma cloak is hated its because of how magicka NB is built currently it should NOT be nerfed + the insane amount of counters the skill is barely reliable as times, BUT if some of the changes I suggested at the top are made, NB cloak can have increased cost per use or something along those lines because the we would have other methods of survival (healing I suggested on swallow soul + summon shade)

(forgive any spelling mistakes its midnight)


Alot of people know me for playing Magicka NB on my khajiit since beta and I know pretty much everything about it, Most of my suggestions have a purpose behind them so feel free to ask about a certain one if you want more detailed explanation.

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Below are suggestions for changes to nb skills. This is not a discussion on NB skills compared to other class skills. Other classes obviously have their issues and should get a separate thread for discussion. This is also not about NB being better or worse than other classes. I believe changes suggested below along with other classes being balanced is the key to creating balance. Simply calling buff or nerf to a single class is silly. That said, even you NB haters should like at least some of the changes suggested. Last, Passives will not be discussed. I think the passives for this class are solid and should remain unchanged.

Disclaimer: My main is a stam NB. However, I do flip flop between mag and stam. That said, I am familiar with all classes and play all classes. NB is the class I identify with and do not want to see it nerfed into the ground, nor do i like having a class that gets crapped on because it is deemed OP. Either your class under performs and you cant have fun or people hate tell you and say you have no skill because the class is deemed OP. I want to see both disappear. Last, I making these suggestions in hopes that physical damage and magic damage will be balanced in the champion tree. ZOS seems to be suggesting in another thread that they will be removing the quick recovery star, so hopefully that will be replaced with a physical damage reduction star.

ASSASSINATION SKILLS:
-Death Stroke:
This ultimate and its morphs are fine as is. I would like to see one of the morphs receive physical damage. This is a melee twin blade type of move, so it would be logical to make physical damage. Much along the same line of thought that makes it alright for surprise attack to be physical damage.

-Assassin's Blade:
This skill and Impale morph are fine as is.
I would like to see killers blade become physical damage for the same reasons mentioned above.

-Teleport Strike:
This ability and Lotus Fan morph are fine as is.

Ambush should not have the Empowering buff. This skill is unique enough in the fact that it has no minimum range and can be used from varying elevations. Not to mention, it is the only stamina based gap closer available as a class skill. It is silly to add an Empowering buff. The main issue that many associate with this skill is spamming it and perma rooting. However, that is a gap closer issue not an ambush issue. I am also for getting rid of the immobolize. Although this is not the cause of the perma root that many believe I think we should add something else to this ability. Perhaps a minor healing debuff or a DOT like lotus fan.

-Blur:
Blur and the Double Take morph are fine as is.

Mirage needs to be reworked. Tanks feel free to chime in here since I dont tank, but i know for a DPS or Healer that 1k armor or spell resistance is just crap. I would like to see this buff dropped and changed. Maybe a morph that removes snares much like shuffle but it wont make you immune from snares making shuffle still unique. This way you will have a way to increase mobility or remove snares via a mag dump.

-Mark Target:
Marked Target and Piercing Mark morph are fine as is.

Reapers mark needs to have its damage increased for at least 10 seconds to make it a more viable choice. This would need some testing. Increasing the duration could result in the ability being OP with the amount of increased damage. So the damage buff may need to be tweaked because of an increase in duration. Finding the sweet spot between duration and damage is the key here. As it stand, the duration is to short to make it worth using.

-Grim Focus:
This skill and its morphs are fine as is. The balance for this ability will come when the champion tree is balanced and people spread there points more making magic damage more useful.

SHADOW SKILLS:
-Consuming Darkness:
This ability and both of the morphs are fine as is.

-Shadow Cloak:
Although I do believe this ability overall is fine as is with all of the counters to cloak, I do understand that mag NB perma cloaking is an issue. I would not be opposed to a reduction in mag recovery for the time that the skill is keeping you in stealth. This would not kill it for stam users while killing perma cloaking. It will also only debuff recovery while in stealth which overcomes the problem of having to spam the ability two or three times to get it to work. Many people say that it should receive an set cost increase on each use but the fact is that this ability is not 100% every time making a player having to hit the ability 2 or 3 times for it to work. A cost increase on each use would kill all builds not just stam.

Shadowy Disguise needs to be reworked. This skill is useless. Perhaps the empowering buff can be added to this ability. Maybe a HOT. Maybe increased mobility or remove snares. Maybe increased duration. Maybe reduces aoe damage. Something else besides crit.

Dark cloak is fine as is.

-Veiled Strike:
I think this ability should lose the stun. The fact that this is an instant cast high DPS attack that no other class can use is enough. The stun is too much. This applies to all morphs.

Concealed Weapon is fine as long as you lose the stun.

Surprise attack needs to lose the armor debuff. This ability is unique enough in that it is the only stam based instant cast DPS and the strongest hitting one just on base damage. It is silly to add an armor debuff to increase DPS even more. Not to mention, the debuff can be utilized through reapers mark if the player so chooses. Keep the base damage but lose the stun and the debuff.

-Path of Darkness:
This ability needs to have its DOT increased.
Twisting path needs to have its DOT increased.
Refreshing path needs to have its healing increased.
(These increases do not have to be a large amount but at least a small increase is needed.)

-Aspect of Terror:
This ability is fine as is. However, the animation needs to be fixed. This goes for all of the morphs.

Manifestation of Terror is fine as is. I think this is a very underrated NB ability especially for groups. Dropping this ability on a flag or breach as a raid is pushing through and fearing all of them is awesome especially when timed with a counter attack.

Mass Hysteria the very controversial one. This skill should 100% go through block and be an aoe. Not only is this a unique feature for a NB to have, but it adds an extra dynamic to the game. That said, that is why the ability needs to go down to a 2-3 second duration. (start with 3 and test out 2 and see how the ability is affected.) Also, the ability needs to lose the damage debuff. Back when the ability was made stamina did not have vigor and rally to rely on. The damage reduction for stam builds was key for survival. As the game currently stands, vigor and rally keep stam builds up with sipohing abilites and resto keeping mag builds up. The damage reduction is no longer a necessity for survival. The snare should stay. The morph has to be differentiated some how from the base skill. Maybe reduce the snare to 30-40% but no less.

-Summon Shade:
This ability and morphs are fine as is.

SIPHONING SKILLS:
-Soul Shred:
This ability and morphs are fine as is.

-Strife:
This ability and morphs are fine as is.

-Agony:
This is the only ability I can not really speak on. I have no use for it with any build I run. IMO it should be scrapped and replaced with something new. However, I know players that like this ability and enjoy using it, so perhaps it is worth keeping. I say ZOS should let the numbers decide like they did with haste.

-Cripple:
I think this ability and its morphs are fine as is. Maybe the Debilitate morph could be reworked but it is not bad.

-Siphoning Strikes:
I think this ability and its morphs are fine as is. However, as i mentioned before, I do not play a NB tank and so would like to hear some input on the leeching strikes morph. I do not use it as a DPS or Healer, but I imagine it is servicable for a tank. Perhaps providing more heals or make it also have a 10% chance of restoring health when using an ability, but keep stam and mag recovery on basic attacks. (also, health on basic attacks.) However, keep it a toggle so that there is some detriment to using it. That seems reasonable to me.

Some think that siphoning attacks should have an increased duration. I disagree with this. 15 seconds is the sweet spot to keep it from being OP. If the duration is increased, then the recovery would have to be decreased.

-Drain Power:
This ability and the sap essence morph are fine as is.

Power Extraction needs to be reworked. The damage is lower then the other stamina based aoe available in the weapon skills such as Bombard and Steel Tornado. Ofcourse that may be because it is magic damage so this can be addressed by balancing the champ tree or by making it physical damage. It may be ahrd to justify making this physical damage. The damage on this ability should be revisited after the balance incoming. However, this ability should lose the major brutality buff. It makes since for Sap Essence to get Major Sorcery buff because the only other place to get that for a mag build is the Mages Guild Tree. However, there are plenty of places to get Major Brutality from for a stam build such as Rally and Hidden Blade. This buff is useless for a stam build. I say drop the Major Brutality buff and add empowering to this ability. If not Empowering than another buff of some sort or a DOT.


Thoughts? Questions? Comments?

Remember this is not a debate on NB have this or not this compared to other classes. You want to talk about other classes then make a thread to balance the other classes. I feel my feedback has provided a balance adjustment to NB that both sides will like. Please limit discussion to NB skills. (even passives).

This all seems like it would balance NBs very well and i agree 100%. But i doubt ZoS will implement these though. I have a strong sense that if these are added most NBs will see this as a nerf and come to the forums and complain about it until they revert them.

CtrlAltDlt

Bowmanz607, I agree with most of your suggested changes.

Ambush - needs to loose the empowering buff. I wouldn't mind lowering its damage a bit too.

Fear - it's fine

SA - I'm not so sure about it loosing the fracture debuff but I guess I wouldn't oppose it. The stun from stealth needs to go though
.
Cloak - This ability is main defense, imo it's fine as it is. There are many counters to it.

Mirage - useless. Needs a buff

Summon shade - would be cool if it didn't need a target to cast.

bowmanz607

@Sypher @Deltia @Lefty_Lucy @frozywozy @SemiD4rkness @Derra any thoughts on the suggested changes or some of your own?

frozywozy

My personnal thoughts on Ambush is that they should add a minimal range like any gap closer. The rest of my concern is regarding the mini-stun for all gap closers.

code65536

Strife: This skill is fine. So is its cost; it is possible to lower its cost to absurdly low numbers, but, as someone has already pointed out, doing so requires the use of cost reduction enchants that would make this skill hit like a wet noodle.

Agony: I used to think that this skill was completely useless. That is, until Vet Maelstrom. Skills like Agony or the DK's Petrify are immensely useful in a number of the rounds. That having been said, none of the morphs look particularly worthy of a skill point, so I've left it unmorphed, and it's hard to see the usefulness of such a skill in a game where the meta is "burn everything down with high DPS". But in situations where that's not feasible--e.g., when a summoner spawns while you're being chased by a Crematorial Guard in VMA round 9--it is a useful skill, and hopefully, as ZOS adds more challenging content in the future where you can't just burn things down, skills like this or the DK Petrify will become much more valuable.

Leeching Strikes: Speaking as a tank, I have to say that this morph is utterly useless. The convenience of not having to track and recast is not worth the downsides: (1) being a toggle means taking up an extra bar slot, (2) the loss in spell power means a reduction in the self-healing you do with Funnel and Sap, (3) not being able to proc off of ability attacks means this is useful only if you light attack (which means dropping block). As a tank, where resources matter much more than health, that paltry health return (which pales in comparison to what I get with Funnel and Sap) is not the loss of a 10% chance to proc on abilities. And as a tank, I'm block-casting Funnel all the time for both damage and self-healing, not dropping block to light attack.

bowmanz607

code65536 wrote: »

Strife: This skill is fine. So is its cost; it is possible to lower its cost to absurdly low numbers, but, as someone has already pointed out, doing so requires the use of cost reduction enchants that would make this skill hit like a wet noodle.

Agony: I used to think that this skill was completely useless. That is, until Vet Maelstrom. Skills like Agony or the DK's Petrify are immensely useful in a number of the rounds. That having been said, none of the morphs look particularly worthy of a skill point, so I've left it unmorphed, and it's hard to see the usefulness of such a skill in a game where the meta is "burn everything down with high DPS". But in situations where that's not feasible--e.g., when a summoner spawns while you're being chased by a Crematorial Guard in VMA round 9--it is a useful skill, and hopefully, as ZOS adds more challenging content in the future where you can't just burn things down, skills like this or the DK Petrify will become much more valuable.

Leeching Strikes: Speaking as a tank, I have to say that this morph is utterly useless. The convenience of not having to track and recast is not worth the downsides: (1) being a toggle means taking up an extra bar slot, (2) the loss in spell power means a reduction in the self-healing you do with Funnel and Sap, (3) not being able to proc off of ability attacks means this is useful only if you light attack (which means dropping block). As a tank, where resources matter much more than health, that paltry health return (which pales in comparison to what I get with Funnel and Sap) is not the loss of a 10% chance to proc on abilities. And as a tank, I'm block-casting Funnel all the time for both damage and self-healing, not dropping block to light attack.

the only thing i want to draw attention to is strife. a light armor user can get the cost down with ease. When i put on 7 pc light and 8% in champ tree the cost is just under 900 which basically makes it free. I get that number wihtou sacrificing any damage or recovery at all. (i do understand that is as a mag dps perspective not a tank perspective on cost which someone brought up earlier)

Araxleon

code65536 wrote: »

Strife: This skill is fine. So is its cost; it is possible to lower its cost to absurdly low numbers, but, as someone has already pointed out, doing so requires the use of cost reduction enchants that would make this skill hit like a wet noodle.

Agony: I used to think that this skill was completely useless. That is, until Vet Maelstrom. Skills like Agony or the DK's Petrify are immensely useful in a number of the rounds. That having been said, none of the morphs look particularly worthy of a skill point, so I've left it unmorphed, and it's hard to see the usefulness of such a skill in a game where the meta is "burn everything down with high DPS". But in situations where that's not feasible--e.g., when a summoner spawns while you're being chased by a Crematorial Guard in VMA round 9--it is a useful skill, and hopefully, as ZOS adds more challenging content in the future where you can't just burn things down, skills like this or the DK Petrify will become much more valuable.

Leeching Strikes: Speaking as a tank, I have to say that this morph is utterly useless. The convenience of not having to track and recast is not worth the downsides: (1) being a toggle means taking up an extra bar slot, (2) the loss in spell power means a reduction in the self-healing you do with Funnel and Sap, (3) not being able to proc off of ability attacks means this is useful only if you light attack (which means dropping block). As a tank, where resources matter much more than health, that paltry health return (which pales in comparison to what I get with Funnel and Sap) is not the loss of a 10% chance to proc on abilities. And as a tank, I'm block-casting Funnel all the time for both damage and self-healing, not dropping block to light attack.

wet noodle? going the cost reduce route lowers it to like 7k.
thats not a wet noodle.

atm I can get 8-9k without cost reduc and it will cost 900ish to cast

I can make it cost close to 300-400ish to cast with cost reduction and it will do 7k.

I understand why alot of NB tanks wouldnt want this changed, its really good for tank builds being cheap but it is in no way balanced to the other class skill costs by any means.

Like I suggested in my above comment, Increase the healing you receive from this skill and make it cost more

(I would also like to note, this is the hardest hitting skill in the game, that you can spam and have more magicka recovery then the cost by simply BEING spec'd into light armor)

bowmanz607

Araxleon wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Strife: This skill is fine. So is its cost; it is possible to lower its cost to absurdly low numbers, but, as someone has already pointed out, doing so requires the use of cost reduction enchants that would make this skill hit like a wet noodle.

Agony: I used to think that this skill was completely useless. That is, until Vet Maelstrom. Skills like Agony or the DK's Petrify are immensely useful in a number of the rounds. That having been said, none of the morphs look particularly worthy of a skill point, so I've left it unmorphed, and it's hard to see the usefulness of such a skill in a game where the meta is "burn everything down with high DPS". But in situations where that's not feasible--e.g., when a summoner spawns while you're being chased by a Crematorial Guard in VMA round 9--it is a useful skill, and hopefully, as ZOS adds more challenging content in the future where you can't just burn things down, skills like this or the DK Petrify will become much more valuable.

Leeching Strikes: Speaking as a tank, I have to say that this morph is utterly useless. The convenience of not having to track and recast is not worth the downsides: (1) being a toggle means taking up an extra bar slot, (2) the loss in spell power means a reduction in the self-healing you do with Funnel and Sap, (3) not being able to proc off of ability attacks means this is useful only if you light attack (which means dropping block). As a tank, where resources matter much more than health, that paltry health return (which pales in comparison to what I get with Funnel and Sap) is not the loss of a 10% chance to proc on abilities. And as a tank, I'm block-casting Funnel all the time for both damage and self-healing, not dropping block to light attack.

wet noodle? going the cost reduce route lowers it to like 7k.
thats not a wet noodle.

atm I can get 8-9k without cost reduc and it will cost 900ish to cast

I can make it cost close to 300-400ish to cast with cost reduction and it will do 7k.

I understand why alot of NB tanks wouldnt want this changed, its really good for tank builds being cheap but it is in no way balanced to the other class skill costs by any means.

Like I suggested in my above comment, Increase the healing you receive from this skill and make it cost more

(I would also like to note, this is the hardest hitting skill in the game, that you can spam and have more magicka recovery then the cost by simply BEING spec'd into light armor)

Definitely not the hardest hitting spammable ability. Concealed weapon hits much harder if we are talking mag builds nb builds.

Araxleon

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Araxleon wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Strife: This skill is fine. So is its cost; it is possible to lower its cost to absurdly low numbers, but, as someone has already pointed out, doing so requires the use of cost reduction enchants that would make this skill hit like a wet noodle.

Agony: I used to think that this skill was completely useless. That is, until Vet Maelstrom. Skills like Agony or the DK's Petrify are immensely useful in a number of the rounds. That having been said, none of the morphs look particularly worthy of a skill point, so I've left it unmorphed, and it's hard to see the usefulness of such a skill in a game where the meta is "burn everything down with high DPS". But in situations where that's not feasible--e.g., when a summoner spawns while you're being chased by a Crematorial Guard in VMA round 9--it is a useful skill, and hopefully, as ZOS adds more challenging content in the future where you can't just burn things down, skills like this or the DK Petrify will become much more valuable.

Leeching Strikes: Speaking as a tank, I have to say that this morph is utterly useless. The convenience of not having to track and recast is not worth the downsides: (1) being a toggle means taking up an extra bar slot, (2) the loss in spell power means a reduction in the self-healing you do with Funnel and Sap, (3) not being able to proc off of ability attacks means this is useful only if you light attack (which means dropping block). As a tank, where resources matter much more than health, that paltry health return (which pales in comparison to what I get with Funnel and Sap) is not the loss of a 10% chance to proc on abilities. And as a tank, I'm block-casting Funnel all the time for both damage and self-healing, not dropping block to light attack.

wet noodle? going the cost reduce route lowers it to like 7k.
thats not a wet noodle.

atm I can get 8-9k without cost reduc and it will cost 900ish to cast

I can make it cost close to 300-400ish to cast with cost reduction and it will do 7k.

I understand why alot of NB tanks wouldnt want this changed, its really good for tank builds being cheap but it is in no way balanced to the other class skill costs by any means.

Like I suggested in my above comment, Increase the healing you receive from this skill and make it cost more

(I would also like to note, this is the hardest hitting skill in the game, that you can spam and have more magicka recovery then the cost by simply BEING spec'd into light armor)

Definitely not the hardest hitting spammable ability. Concealed weapon hits much harder if we are talking mag builds nb builds.

I am comparing it to the cost, Conceal weapon does more damage and can be spam'd but you actually lose magicka and cant do it forever. (slowly, but you will run out)

you can literally spam/animation cancel swallow soul forever, and never below 90% max magicka (if you are a magicka build)

which goes to my point, hardest hitting in the game - to cost

Resipsa131

I disagree on mirage; on light armor builds they're carrying 10K armor at V16. So a 10% increase on top of the dodge chance is at the very least average. It really helps out on VMA

bowmanz607

Resipsa131 wrote: »

I disagree on mirage; on light armor builds they're carrying 10K armor at V16. So a 10% increase on top of the dodge chance is at the very least average. It really helps out on VMA

I just don't see how 1k resist is helpful. The hard cap is 50% on reduced damage. That is 32000 right? So 1k resist is less than 1% damage reduction. I think 0.64%. Is that really helping all that much? At best a tank build could make an argument for it I guess. But even then it is minimal.

CP5

Honestly, aside form the few NB skills that people just don't really use (looking at you agony) the class just has so much going into each skill used. They can easily access many of the buffs/debuffs with several skills, many of their abilities work well with each other, not to mention that each individual skill does so much. I like a lot of the suggested ideas here but I have to disagree about dark cloak, DOTs are a joke enough as is. Also, for those just saying "Don't nerf NB's" or the like, please provide counterarguments or some sort of constructive feedback rather than just trolling.

bowmanz607

CP5 wrote: »

Honestly, aside form the few NB skills that people just don't really use (looking at you agony) the class just has so much going into each skill used. They can easily access many of the buffs/debuffs with several skills, many of their abilities work well with each other, not to mention that each individual skill does so much. I like a lot of the suggested ideas here but I have to disagree about dark cloak, DOTs are a joke enough as is. Also, for those just saying "Don't nerf NB's" or the like, please provide counterarguments or some sort of constructive feedback rather than just trolling.

The thing with dark cloak is that a dot will keep you out of stealth rendering the ability useless. I already think there are enough counters to it. To add in a dot would need nb way too much. There would never be a fight in which a nb could use cloak.

CP5

bowmanz607 wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

Honestly, aside form the few NB skills that people just don't really use (looking at you agony) the class just has so much going into each skill used. They can easily access many of the buffs/debuffs with several skills, many of their abilities work well with each other, not to mention that each individual skill does so much. I like a lot of the suggested ideas here but I have to disagree about dark cloak, DOTs are a joke enough as is. Also, for those just saying "Don't nerf NB's" or the like, please provide counterarguments or some sort of constructive feedback rather than just trolling.

The thing with dark cloak is that a dot will keep you out of stealth rendering the ability useless. I already think there are enough counters to it. To add in a dot would need nb way too much. There would never be a fight in which a nb could use cloak.

True, but that comes at the cost of DK class skills (primarily dot based damage) being brain dead easy to completely negate.

xXNesTXx

Another foolish thread for happiness of NB haters....

Leave the NB alone! balance not means nerf, if you want a real balance (anyways, some L2P is good for your desired balance) create thread with the improvements for those classes who you think are unbalanced

Right now, the game are balanced, a good DK can kill a good NB without problems....and good templar can do the same with a good sorc....the real problem is the lack of skill of some players, and those players who wants kill to all playing in solo (if you want this, TESO is not for you) with a one single class (8 characters slots are for something) without using any specific counters, using the same skills combination all the time without think too much....

Anyways....claim for buffs, not for debuffs thats it's the correct way to balance something

I really hope that ZOS only laugh with this threads, and not pay attention because the lag issues are making to people quit the game, if now adds nerfs too....bye bye TESO

bowmanz607

xXNesTXx wrote: »

Another foolish thread for happiness of NB haters....

Leave the NB alone! balance not means nerf, if you want a real balance (anyways, some L2P is good for your desired balance) create thread with the improvements for those classes who you think are unbalanced

Right now, the game are balanced, a good DK can kill a good NB without problems....and good templar can do the same with a good sorc....the real problem is the lack of skill of some players, and those players who wants kill to all playing in solo (if you want this, TESO is not for you) with a one single class (8 characters slots are for something) without using any specific counters, using the same skills combination all the time without think too much....

Anyways....claim for buffs, not for debuffs thats it's the correct way to balance something

I really hope that ZOS only laugh with this threads, and not pay attention because the lag issues are making to people quit the game, if now adds nerfs too....bye bye TESO

Did you have something useful to contribute? You ramble for quite some time, but you have nothing in support of why you think the class is balanced and why my suggestions are not good. You simple ramble about how i am a NB hater which if yo read the opening you know is not true. You also parade out skill and l2p issues. One thorough reading of the thread and you would realize that I do have experince in regards to the proposals. I provide my reasoning for each and suggestions on changes. If you disagree that is fine. If somehow you think the skills are balanced, then defend your postion without hiding behind walls of l2p and get good comments. I have taking a look at the skills speartely from player skill. I looked at what each ability does and how they operate in game and why certain mechanics and functions seem unbalanced. Either provide substantive feedback like many in the thread or stay out.

Resipsa131

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Resipsa131 wrote: »

I disagree on mirage; on light armor builds they're carrying 10K armor at V16. So a 10% increase on top of the dodge chance is at the very least average. It really helps out on VMA

I just don't see how 1k resist is helpful. The hard cap is 50% on reduced damage. That is 32000 right? So 1k resist is less than 1% damage reduction. I think 0.64%. Is that really helping all that much? At best a tank build could make an argument for it I guess. But even then it is minimal.

Its better than nothing and I've already got the speed boost from cripple so I'd rather have a 10% increase in resist, I mean the real reason to slot the skill is for the major dodge chance so you could make the argument that its not worth the skill point to morph but for me its better than the alterative. I actually think its better for light armor than heavy armor

bowmanz607

Resipsa131 wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Resipsa131 wrote: »

I disagree on mirage; on light armor builds they're carrying 10K armor at V16. So a 10% increase on top of the dodge chance is at the very least average. It really helps out on VMA

I just don't see how 1k resist is helpful. The hard cap is 50% on reduced damage. That is 32000 right? So 1k resist is less than 1% damage reduction. I think 0.64%. Is that really helping all that much? At best a tank build could make an argument for it I guess. But even then it is minimal.

Its better than nothing and I've already got the speed boost from cripple so I'd rather have a 10% increase in resist, I mean the real reason is for the major dodge chance so you could make the argument that its not worth the skill point but for me its better than the alterative. I actually think its better for light armor than heavy armor

I see your point. But does it being a "better" alternative make it a "good" alternative. I mean it makes complete sense why you use that morph over the other. You already get the buff from the other morph so at least you gain "something" by useing the resistance morph. Would the same not be true for any other benefit that the skill may offer. You would still use it for the different effect. So, ultimately the question is whether or not the resistance is good enough to be the other morph alternative? to me it is not. to players like you it is it seems it is just better than nothing. So why not change it?

Chori

I stopped reading when I saw class nerfs without buffing other skills.