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• https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/684716
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• https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/684716
Guild of Shadows Retiring from Active Competition
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Sallington✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭vortexman11 wrote: »they arent taking time "off" saw the normal group last night. 8+ on haderus
What you saw was a group of friends running around with no real leader just having fun
That sounds to me like someone setting up excuses before hand to preserve egos for when some other Zergball steamrolls them : "Ohh we're just casual now....just playing for fun...didn't you see the forum post?".
Ezareth, you know I have nothing against you, but I also know you don't play in large groups. I have no ego to preserve, and I'm hoping no other members of GoS have the need to do so either. When Rylana made this post and when Zazeer made this decision I'm sure it was a simple recognition to the fact that in order to stay competitive with the other "zergball" guilds we'd need leadership, and dedication from our members. Lacking both there was nothing left to do other than make it official.
This post wasn't to say everyone in GoS was quitting all at once or something crazy like that, I think the basis of it was to say we wont be out there taking on guilds like VE, KHole, RAGE, (and I don't honestly know the names of half the guilds now because you're always dissolving and reforming..)
Yeah my comment was directed at that specific excerpt from Frozywozy, I understand Rylanas intent clearly. I just think perhaps people are selling you guys short, as I said I have spent quite a bit of time playing in large groups and I'm still an officer in my original guild which exclusively does large group PvP and went through similar cycles of having the leadership of the guild quit the game yet the guild as a whole still continues to represent. I'm just poking fun a bit at all the sensationalism ( =
I don't know man. I had to take a sick day when I read GoS was retiring from active competition.Daggerfall Covenant
Sallington - Templar - Stormproof - Prefect II
Cobham - Sorcerer - Stormproof - First Sergeant II
Shallington - NightBlade - Lieutenant |
Balmorah - Templar - Sergeant ||0 -
Yeah I did my first 6 month stint in the game doing the group thing back when groups weren't mindless balls AoE bombing each other and being decided by who drops which ult at the correct time with one guy dictating every action to the entire group.
I mean no offense, just wanted to chime in here. I remember Impulse and Batswarm zergs from those days, mostly wearing potentates set and sometimes pairing that with the akaviri dragon set to reduce bats to almost no cost with the old school ult gen. Then Tanks wearing Twin sisters in group.0 -
Turtl3Lov3✭✭✭✭Sallington wrote: »vortexman11 wrote: »they arent taking time "off" saw the normal group last night. 8+ on haderus
What you saw was a group of friends running around with no real leader just having fun
That sounds to me like someone setting up excuses before hand to preserve egos for when some other Zergball steamrolls them : "Ohh we're just casual now....just playing for fun...didn't you see the forum post?".
Ezareth, you know I have nothing against you, but I also know you don't play in large groups. I have no ego to preserve, and I'm hoping no other members of GoS have the need to do so either. When Rylana made this post and when Zazeer made this decision I'm sure it was a simple recognition to the fact that in order to stay competitive with the other "zergball" guilds we'd need leadership, and dedication from our members. Lacking both there was nothing left to do other than make it official.
This post wasn't to say everyone in GoS was quitting all at once or something crazy like that, I think the basis of it was to say we wont be out there taking on guilds like VE, KHole, RAGE, (and I don't honestly know the names of half the guilds now because you're always dissolving and reforming..)
Yeah my comment was directed at that specific excerpt from Frozywozy, I understand Rylanas intent clearly. I just think perhaps people are selling you guys short, as I said I have spent quite a bit of time playing in large groups and I'm still an officer in my original guild which exclusively does large group PvP and went through similar cycles of having the leadership of the guild quit the game yet the guild as a whole still continues to represent. I'm just poking fun a bit at all the sensationalism ( =
I don't know man. I had to take a sick day when I read GoS was retiring from active competition.
I take sick days just to look at this.
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/12/28/europe/vladimir-putin-calendar-2016/1 -
This seems like a big cry for attention thread.im seeing a lot of "who are you again?" geting thrown around. as if you need to be known either through a stream channel or association in the good ol boys club to be able to speak.
just because you havent heard of someone, they dont get an opinion? like, does this make you feel "better"?
lets not even talk about the "gang up defend your bros" attitude gushing forth from all the good ol boys. . .
its like a window into the wretchedness of humanity. keep on entitlement bros!
Random guy walks into a bar, hears another man stating his plans for the future. Then proceeds to make a derogatory comment about it to the man amongst a group of his friends. Random guy gets surprised when the man's friends lash back. #internetlogic2 -
diskiukas✭✭✭Turtl3Lov3 wrote: »
I might be mixing up guilds, but was it really necessary to call me names? What happened to class?0 -
Satiar✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭duuude9192b14_ESO wrote: »
Yeah I did my first 6 month stint in the game doing the group thing back when groups weren't mindless balls AoE bombing each other and being decided by who drops which ult at the correct time with one guy dictating every action to the entire group.
I mean no offense, just wanted to chime in here. I remember Impulse and Batswarm zergs from those days, mostly wearing potentates set and sometimes pairing that with the akaviri dragon set to reduce bats to almost no cost with the old school ult gen. Then Tanks wearing Twin sisters in group.
Yeah...people who think competitive PvP hasn't always been about stacking the best AoE and Ultis on the biggest concentration of enemies they can find are silly.
Vehemence -- Commander and Raid Lead -- Tri-faction PvP
Knights Paravant -- Co-GM and Raid Lead -- AD Greyhost0 -
Turtl3Lov3✭✭✭✭
Sorry, forgot this in there.Turtl3Lov3 wrote: »
I might be mixing up guilds, but was it really necessary to call me names? What happened to class?
Caution: No direct name calling was intended in this meme.Edited by Turtl3Lov3 on January 7, 2016 6:57PM0 -
Ezareth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭duuude9192b14_ESO wrote: »
Yeah I did my first 6 month stint in the game doing the group thing back when groups weren't mindless balls AoE bombing each other and being decided by who drops which ult at the correct time with one guy dictating every action to the entire group.
I mean no offense, just wanted to chime in here. I remember Impulse and Batswarm zergs from those days, mostly wearing potentates set and sometimes pairing that with the akaviri dragon set to reduce bats to almost no cost with the old school ult gen. Then Tanks wearing Twin sisters in group.
Yeah I remember them too. There was typically 4-6 guys (or less) that would wipe zerg swarms endlessly because they wouldn't need any more, there were no AoE caps, 10 meter talons and more potatoes than Idaho on the battlefields. Not what I'd consider a ball group. It wasn't until after AoE caps were introduced that the group size necessarily became larger and more condensed in order to maximize effectiveness. This was right around the time I set out on my own to do Solo 1vX after I recognized my individual playstyle no longer had an impact on the zerg ball meta that was forming.
The Twins sisters wearing bug came some time after that.duuude9192b14_ESO wrote: »
Yeah I did my first 6 month stint in the game doing the group thing back when groups weren't mindless balls AoE bombing each other and being decided by who drops which ult at the correct time with one guy dictating every action to the entire group.
I mean no offense, just wanted to chime in here. I remember Impulse and Batswarm zergs from those days, mostly wearing potentates set and sometimes pairing that with the akaviri dragon set to reduce bats to almost no cost with the old school ult gen. Then Tanks wearing Twin sisters in group.
Yeah...people who think competitive PvP hasn't always been about stacking the best AoE and Ultis on the biggest concentration of enemies they can find are silly.
You can think I was implying that except that I wasn't. Back in the day *Everyone* was spread out all over so you'd be far less effective by concentrating all your aoe in extremely tight formations (Especially since resources weren't endless like they are today with the exception of ultimate spam....remember having to slot spell sym just to be able to keep spamming impulse?
The offensive tactic then was to concentrate the spread out zergs into choke points because you couldn't easily 50-100 people all firing on your group when they were spread out in an open field firing on you. Now pretty much *every* organized group runs in tightly packed formation to minimize damage from AoE caps and it becomes a matter of timing your AoE burst and negate/barrier/ults etc.
It's the AvA equivalent of horse-ganking people. So fun....
Permanently banned from the forums for displaying dissent: ESO - The Year Behind
Too Much Bolt Escape - banned for "hacking the game to create movement not otherwise permitted by in game mechanics."
Ezareth VR16 AD Sorc - Rank 36 - Axe NA
Ezareth-Ali VR16 DC NB - Rank 20 - Chillrend NA
Ezareth PvP on Youtube2 -
Manoekin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭duuude9192b14_ESO wrote: »
Yeah I did my first 6 month stint in the game doing the group thing back when groups weren't mindless balls AoE bombing each other and being decided by who drops which ult at the correct time with one guy dictating every action to the entire group.
I mean no offense, just wanted to chime in here. I remember Impulse and Batswarm zergs from those days, mostly wearing potentates set and sometimes pairing that with the akaviri dragon set to reduce bats to almost no cost with the old school ult gen. Then Tanks wearing Twin sisters in group.
Yeah...people who think competitive PvP hasn't always been about stacking the best AoE and Ultis on the biggest concentration of enemies they can find are silly.
I think Ezareth's point he's trying to make is that earlier on in the game we had groups of players that just knew what they were doing. They didn't have to be stacked on crown in order to get from point A to point B, crown didn't have to tell them to use their ultimates because they knew when they were needed, and the impact from an individual players was much more pronounced than it is now. I get nostalgic and talk to my groups about the good ol' days too, but the way the game is played the way it is now is because of the changes it has undergone in that time. Back then it felt more like you could just play the game with a group of friends and be successful, but now if you want to do more than small scale fights you need to be infinitely more organized and have the numbers for it to work.2 -
Satiar✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭duuude9192b14_ESO wrote: »
Yeah I did my first 6 month stint in the game doing the group thing back when groups weren't mindless balls AoE bombing each other and being decided by who drops which ult at the correct time with one guy dictating every action to the entire group.
I mean no offense, just wanted to chime in here. I remember Impulse and Batswarm zergs from those days, mostly wearing potentates set and sometimes pairing that with the akaviri dragon set to reduce bats to almost no cost with the old school ult gen. Then Tanks wearing Twin sisters in group.
Yeah I remember them too. There was typically 4-6 guys (or less) that would wipe zerg swarms endlessly because they wouldn't need any more, there were no AoE caps, 10 meter talons and more potatoes than Idaho on the battlefields. Not what I'd consider a ball group. It wasn't until after AoE caps were introduced that the group size necessarily became larger and more condensed in order to maximize effectiveness. This was right around the time I set out on my own to do Solo 1vX after I recognized my individual playstyle no longer had an impact on the zerg ball meta that was forming.
The Twins sisters wearing bug came some time after that.duuude9192b14_ESO wrote: »
Yeah I did my first 6 month stint in the game doing the group thing back when groups weren't mindless balls AoE bombing each other and being decided by who drops which ult at the correct time with one guy dictating every action to the entire group.
I mean no offense, just wanted to chime in here. I remember Impulse and Batswarm zergs from those days, mostly wearing potentates set and sometimes pairing that with the akaviri dragon set to reduce bats to almost no cost with the old school ult gen. Then Tanks wearing Twin sisters in group.
Yeah...people who think competitive PvP hasn't always been about stacking the best AoE and Ultis on the biggest concentration of enemies they can find are silly.
You can think I was implying that except that I wasn't. Back in the day *Everyone* was spread out all over so you'd be far less effective by concentrating all your aoe in extremely tight formations (Especially since resources weren't endless like they are today with the exception of ultimate spam....remember having to slot spell sym just to be able to keep spamming impulse?
The offensive tactic then was to concentrate the spread out zergs into choke points because you couldn't easily 50-100 people all firing on your group when they were spread out in an open field firing on you. Now pretty much *every* organized group runs in tightly packed formation to minimize damage from AoE caps and it becomes a matter of timing your AoE burst and negate/barrier/ults etc.
It's the AvA equivalent of horse-ganking people. So fun....
Ehhh not quite.
Even back on the old days you had tight formations being massively effective. You'd have huge swathes of pugs spread out and battling with more organized formations rolling through.
Perhaps my perspective is biased because my early PvP experienced were with TYSM and Hijinx who both ran tight formations and were very effective.
The most spread out I ever saw the game was during the purge bug era, where it was less bomb and counter bomb and more a long series of kiting engagements with everyone trying to set down meatbags.Vehemence -- Commander and Raid Lead -- Tri-faction PvP
Knights Paravant -- Co-GM and Raid Lead -- AD Greyhost0 -
Ezareth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭duuude9192b14_ESO wrote: »
Yeah I did my first 6 month stint in the game doing the group thing back when groups weren't mindless balls AoE bombing each other and being decided by who drops which ult at the correct time with one guy dictating every action to the entire group.
I mean no offense, just wanted to chime in here. I remember Impulse and Batswarm zergs from those days, mostly wearing potentates set and sometimes pairing that with the akaviri dragon set to reduce bats to almost no cost with the old school ult gen. Then Tanks wearing Twin sisters in group.
Yeah...people who think competitive PvP hasn't always been about stacking the best AoE and Ultis on the biggest concentration of enemies they can find are silly.
I think Ezareth's point he's trying to make is that earlier on in the game we had groups of players that just knew what they were doing. They didn't have to be stacked on crown in order to get from point A to point B, crown didn't have to tell them to use their ultimates because they knew when they were needed, and the impact from an individual players was much more pronounced than it is now. I get nostalgic and talk to my groups about the good ol' days too, but the way the game is played the way it is now is because of the changes it has undergone in that time. Back then it felt more like you could just play the game with a group of friends and be successful, but now if you want to do more than small scale fights you need to be infinitely more organized and have the numbers for it to work.
Pretty much this. I still cringe every time I see a Haxus video with a player using the addon to give the leader a giant ass crown over their head moving around like something out of the Human Centipede.
I was playing back when groups didn't need to do this to be effective and an organized group that spread out actually had no problem killing a group that was tightly packed because it afforded them no reason to condense and actually hurt them in many ways. I remember seeing stealth bomb groups coming and immediately watching our whole group spread out for exactly this reason. Spread out groups took less damage from AoE than tightly packed groups. You actually didn't have your face shoved so far up crowns ass that you could make out individual characteristics of your opponents armor pieces as you were fighting them.duuude9192b14_ESO wrote: »
Yeah I did my first 6 month stint in the game doing the group thing back when groups weren't mindless balls AoE bombing each other and being decided by who drops which ult at the correct time with one guy dictating every action to the entire group.
I mean no offense, just wanted to chime in here. I remember Impulse and Batswarm zergs from those days, mostly wearing potentates set and sometimes pairing that with the akaviri dragon set to reduce bats to almost no cost with the old school ult gen. Then Tanks wearing Twin sisters in group.
Yeah I remember them too. There was typically 4-6 guys (or less) that would wipe zerg swarms endlessly because they wouldn't need any more, there were no AoE caps, 10 meter talons and more potatoes than Idaho on the battlefields. Not what I'd consider a ball group. It wasn't until after AoE caps were introduced that the group size necessarily became larger and more condensed in order to maximize effectiveness. This was right around the time I set out on my own to do Solo 1vX after I recognized my individual playstyle no longer had an impact on the zerg ball meta that was forming.
The Twins sisters wearing bug came some time after that.duuude9192b14_ESO wrote: »
Yeah I did my first 6 month stint in the game doing the group thing back when groups weren't mindless balls AoE bombing each other and being decided by who drops which ult at the correct time with one guy dictating every action to the entire group.
I mean no offense, just wanted to chime in here. I remember Impulse and Batswarm zergs from those days, mostly wearing potentates set and sometimes pairing that with the akaviri dragon set to reduce bats to almost no cost with the old school ult gen. Then Tanks wearing Twin sisters in group.
Yeah...people who think competitive PvP hasn't always been about stacking the best AoE and Ultis on the biggest concentration of enemies they can find are silly.
You can think I was implying that except that I wasn't. Back in the day *Everyone* was spread out all over so you'd be far less effective by concentrating all your aoe in extremely tight formations (Especially since resources weren't endless like they are today with the exception of ultimate spam....remember having to slot spell sym just to be able to keep spamming impulse?
The offensive tactic then was to concentrate the spread out zergs into choke points because you couldn't easily 50-100 people all firing on your group when they were spread out in an open field firing on you. Now pretty much *every* organized group runs in tightly packed formation to minimize damage from AoE caps and it becomes a matter of timing your AoE burst and negate/barrier/ults etc.
It's the AvA equivalent of horse-ganking people. So fun....
Ehhh not quite.
Even back on the old days you had tight formations being massively effective. You'd have huge swathes of pugs spread out and battling with more organized formations rolling through.
Perhaps my perspective is biased because my early PvP experienced were with TYSM and Hijinx who both ran tight formations and were very effective.
The most spread out I ever saw the game was during the purge bug era, where it was less bomb and counter bomb and more a long series of kiting engagements with everyone trying to set down meatbags.
Ahh still brings a tear to my eye.
Primary Meat.
Secondary Meat.
Tertiary Meat.Edited by Ezareth on January 7, 2016 7:25PMPermanently banned from the forums for displaying dissent: ESO - The Year Behind
Too Much Bolt Escape - banned for "hacking the game to create movement not otherwise permitted by in game mechanics."
Ezareth VR16 AD Sorc - Rank 36 - Axe NA
Ezareth-Ali VR16 DC NB - Rank 20 - Chillrend NA
Ezareth PvP on Youtube1 -
_Chaos✭✭✭✭✭
✭Agree with Steve on this one.
DR always ran tight for maximum HPS/DPS efficiency, and when the Hijinx crew broke off from that roster Agrippa took it to the next level and plowed through thousands with his pain trains. Keeping DPS concentrated will always win. Full stop. How anyone could even debate this is beyond me. Don't try to use broken DK mechanics as leverage
There was never a time when you didn't have to stay moderately close to crown in group vs group combat yall are out to lunch.Edited by _Chaos on January 7, 2016 7:32PM'Chaos1 -
Ezareth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭spenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »Agree with Steve on this one.
DR always ran tight for maximum HPS/DPS efficiency, and when the Hijinx crew broke off from that roster Agrippa took it to the next level and plowed through thousands with his pain trains. Keeping DPS concentrated will always win. Full stop. How anyone could even debate this is beyond me. Don't try to use broken DK mechanics as leverage
There was never a time when you didn't have to stay moderately close to crown in group vs group combat yall are out to lunch.
We did it all the time. As I said, the AoE Cap patch changed everything. (and later the removal of dynamic ult gen changed it further) If you remove AoE caps today your tightly stacked ball would be crushed by an equally skilled spread out group of the samesize. Negates used to hit an entire group, same with banner, bats etc.
Yeah you stuck together as a group (always in healing range of your healers) but not face to cheeks to face to cheeks with everyone. I remember mages wrath spam with negate + meatbag with our group just wiping all these ball groups and the rage tells I'd get by their leaders. @FENGRUSH hits on many of these points in many of his rants.
There is no denying that you can't apply more damage to a single area in a ball group, but you also exposed yourself to take far more damage as well. That was other metas still existed and were successful. Ball groups weren't the Paper, Scissors, and Rock that they are today.
Edited by Ezareth on January 7, 2016 7:46PMPermanently banned from the forums for displaying dissent: ESO - The Year Behind
Too Much Bolt Escape - banned for "hacking the game to create movement not otherwise permitted by in game mechanics."
Ezareth VR16 AD Sorc - Rank 36 - Axe NA
Ezareth-Ali VR16 DC NB - Rank 20 - Chillrend NA
Ezareth PvP on Youtube3 -
TheValkyn✭✭✭✭✭
✭There's a lot of people mentioning Zaz here and that's totally earned but let's not forget the skill of Brizz and the heart of Purry. GOS has some good people in it.
RIP GOS. We'll see you around.3 -
Manoekin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭spenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »Agree with Steve on this one.
DR always ran tight for maximum HPS/DPS efficiency, and when the Hijinx crew broke off from that roster Agrippa took it to the next level and plowed through thousands with his pain trains. Keeping DPS concentrated will always win. Full stop. How anyone could even debate this is beyond me. Don't try to use broken DK mechanics as leverage
There was never a time when you didn't have to stay moderately close to crown in group vs group combat yall are out to lunch.
Within healing range was the norm back then. At the very start groups stayed super close because sorcs provided by far the best heals, and those heals were all ground aoe's. Then Templars began to shine with BoL. Now fast forward a little, we're fighting TSYM and we die the first couple times because it's 24+ people stacked into a ball so tight it'd bring a tear to daniel's eye, and they're all spamming AOEs, purges, barriers, everything. We adapted, realizing that if you take two steps to the left their entire train misses you because they're only moving one direction. Then we hit their back lines, slow people, stun people, kill the ones that get caught. Maybe you get lucky and kill the leader and then he orders the group to suicide or jump out of the keep and run back to the nearest keep/outpost. AOE caps are already not helping you, so just stay in heal range. It became easy for us.
We had many GvG's against No Mercy that took up almost half of some resource nodes. No one wanted to be in one single spot so the other could wipe them in under a second. You spread out, tried to get oils down near the flag so you could hold/flip it. If you saw someone drop to a knee you did whatever you had to to go bash them so they didn't get the oil up. Fire ballistas went up in the back usually, meatbags too. Those were fun fights because you respected that the other team would kill you if you were all in one place. There's not the same fear now.8 -
Ezareth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭spenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »Agree with Steve on this one.
DR always ran tight for maximum HPS/DPS efficiency, and when the Hijinx crew broke off from that roster Agrippa took it to the next level and plowed through thousands with his pain trains. Keeping DPS concentrated will always win. Full stop. How anyone could even debate this is beyond me. Don't try to use broken DK mechanics as leverage
There was never a time when you didn't have to stay moderately close to crown in group vs group combat yall are out to lunch.
Within healing range was the norm back then. At the very start groups stayed super close because sorcs provided by far the best heals, and those heals were all ground aoe's. Then Templars began to shine with BoL. Now fast forward a little, we're fighting TSYM and we die the first couple times because it's 24+ people stacked into a ball so tight it'd bring a tear to daniel's eye, and they're all spamming AOEs, purges, barriers, everything. We adapted, realizing that if you take two steps to the left their entire train misses you because they're only moving one direction. Then we hit their back lines, slow people, stun people, kill the ones that get caught. Maybe you get lucky and kill the leader and then he orders the group to suicide or jump out of the keep and run back to the nearest keep/outpost. AOE caps are already not helping you, so just stay in heal range. It became easy for us.
We had many GvG's against No Mercy that took up almost half of some resource nodes. No one wanted to be in one single spot so the other could wipe them in under a second. You spread out, tried to get oils down near the flag so you could hold/flip it. If you saw someone drop to a knee you did whatever you had to to go bash them so they didn't get the oil up. Fire ballistas went up in the back usually, meatbags too. Those were fun fights because you respected that the other team would kill you if you were all in one place. There's not the same fear now.
Said it better than I could.Permanently banned from the forums for displaying dissent: ESO - The Year Behind
Too Much Bolt Escape - banned for "hacking the game to create movement not otherwise permitted by in game mechanics."
Ezareth VR16 AD Sorc - Rank 36 - Axe NA
Ezareth-Ali VR16 DC NB - Rank 20 - Chillrend NA
Ezareth PvP on Youtube0 -
Takllin✭✭✭✭✭WTB back that Cyrodil environment/performance which @Ezareth and @Manoekin are talking about, PST w/ offers.Jadokis - AD Redguard DK v16 AR 18
Jàsènn - AD Orc Templar 47 AR 10
Jessèn - AD Dunmer DK v16 AR 9 - Former Empress of Blackwater Blade
Tekllin - AD Altmer Sorcerer v16 AR 18 (Ret.)
Tekklin - AD Bosmer Nightblade v16 AR 12 (Ret.)
Jasenn - DC Imperial Templar v16 AR 18 (Ret.)
Jasènn - DC Orc Sorcerer v16 AR 15 (Ret.)2 -
Ishammael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭spenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »Agree with Steve on this one.
DR always ran tight for maximum HPS/DPS efficiency, and when the Hijinx crew broke off from that roster Agrippa took it to the next level and plowed through thousands with his pain trains. Keeping DPS concentrated will always win. Full stop. How anyone could even debate this is beyond me. Don't try to use broken DK mechanics as leverage
There was never a time when you didn't have to stay moderately close to crown in group vs group combat yall are out to lunch.
Within healing range was the norm back then. At the very start groups stayed super close because sorcs provided by far the best heals, and those heals were all ground aoe's. Then Templars began to shine with BoL. Now fast forward a little, we're fighting TSYM and we die the first couple times because it's 24+ people stacked into a ball so tight it'd bring a tear to daniel's eye, and they're all spamming AOEs, purges, barriers, everything. We adapted, realizing that if you take two steps to the left their entire train misses you because they're only moving one direction. Then we hit their back lines, slow people, stun people, kill the ones that get caught. Maybe you get lucky and kill the leader and then he orders the group to suicide or jump out of the keep and run back to the nearest keep/outpost. AOE caps are already not helping you, so just stay in heal range. It became easy for us.
We had many GvG's against No Mercy that took up almost half of some resource nodes. No one wanted to be in one single spot so the other could wipe them in under a second. You spread out, tried to get oils down near the flag so you could hold/flip it. If you saw someone drop to a knee you did whatever you had to to go bash them so they didn't get the oil up. Fire ballistas went up in the back usually, meatbags too. Those were fun fights because you respected that the other team would kill you if you were all in one place. There's not the same fear now.
Dynamic Ultimate
Ground Oils
Soft Caps
No CPs
1 -
Sallington✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭spenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »Agree with Steve on this one.
DR always ran tight for maximum HPS/DPS efficiency, and when the Hijinx crew broke off from that roster Agrippa took it to the next level and plowed through thousands with his pain trains. Keeping DPS concentrated will always win. Full stop. How anyone could even debate this is beyond me. Don't try to use broken DK mechanics as leverage
There was never a time when you didn't have to stay moderately close to crown in group vs group combat yall are out to lunch.
Within healing range was the norm back then. At the very start groups stayed super close because sorcs provided by far the best heals, and those heals were all ground aoe's. Then Templars began to shine with BoL. Now fast forward a little, we're fighting TSYM and we die the first couple times because it's 24+ people stacked into a ball so tight it'd bring a tear to daniel's eye, and they're all spamming AOEs, purges, barriers, everything. We adapted, realizing that if you take two steps to the left their entire train misses you because they're only moving one direction. Then we hit their back lines, slow people, stun people, kill the ones that get caught. Maybe you get lucky and kill the leader and then he orders the group to suicide or jump out of the keep and run back to the nearest keep/outpost. AOE caps are already not helping you, so just stay in heal range. It became easy for us.
We had many GvG's against No Mercy that took up almost half of some resource nodes. No one wanted to be in one single spot so the other could wipe them in under a second. You spread out, tried to get oils down near the flag so you could hold/flip it. If you saw someone drop to a knee you did whatever you had to to go bash them so they didn't get the oil up. Fire ballistas went up in the back usually, meatbags too. Those were fun fights because you respected that the other team would kill you if you were all in one place. There's not the same fear now.
The ground oil nostalgia is strong Daggerfall Covenant
Sallington - Templar - Stormproof - Prefect II
Cobham - Sorcerer - Stormproof - First Sergeant II
Shallington - NightBlade - Lieutenant |
Balmorah - Templar - Sergeant ||0 -
Darnathian✭✭✭✭✭
✭Just throwing this out there. Maybe GoS should take this time off to do some training with more casual guilds and help them get better at the game? Doesn't need leads to actually give advices.
I have personally took Sotp under my wings yesterday. Took 4 of their core members including group leaders and they ran with us for 2-3hours. They said they really enjoyed what they saw and were satisfied of what they learned. I'm going to do the same with BFTP and Pact in the near future.
Good jobEdited by Darnathian on January 7, 2016 9:34PM0 -
leeux✭✭✭✭✭Maybe some of you of the old guard that are still playing this game, and that still has footage of the old days, should get together and make a documentary video...
It could be about the way the game played, and how the different changes that were introduced affecting the game mechanics caused the successive game-play changes that lead to what we have today.
It would make for an interesting experiment, and at least could provide information for new/starting game developers to what NOT to do to your game
PC/NA - Proud old member of the Antique Ordinatus Populus
My charsLiana Amnell (AD mSorc L50+, ex EP) =x= Lehnnan Klennett (AD mTemplar L50+ Healer/Support ) =x= Ethim Amnell (AD mDK L50+, ex DC)Leinwyn Valaene (AD mSorc L50+) =x= Levus Artorias (AD mDK-for-now L50+) =x= Madril Ulessen (AD mNB L50+) =x= Lyra Amnis (AD not-Stamplar-yet L50+)I only PvP on AD chars
~~ «And blossoms anew beneath tomorrow's sun >>»
~~ «I am forever swimming around, amidst this ocean world we call home... >>»
~~ "Let strength be granted so the world might be mended... so the world might be mended."
~~ "Slash the silver chain that binds thee to life"
~~ Our cries will shrill, the air will moan and crash into the dawn. >>
~~ The sands of time were eroded by the river of constant change >>
1 -
Satiar✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭spenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »Agree with Steve on this one.
DR always ran tight for maximum HPS/DPS efficiency, and when the Hijinx crew broke off from that roster Agrippa took it to the next level and plowed through thousands with his pain trains. Keeping DPS concentrated will always win. Full stop. How anyone could even debate this is beyond me. Don't try to use broken DK mechanics as leverage
There was never a time when you didn't have to stay moderately close to crown in group vs group combat yall are out to lunch.
We did it all the time. As I said, the AoE Cap patch changed everything. (and later the removal of dynamic ult gen changed it further) If you remove AoE caps today your tightly stacked ball would be crushed by an equally skilled spread out group of the samesize. Negates used to hit an entire group, same with banner, bats etc.
Yeah you stuck together as a group (always in healing range of your healers) but not face to cheeks to face to cheeks with everyone. I remember mages wrath spam with negate + meatbag with our group just wiping all these ball groups and the rage tells I'd get by their leaders. @FENGRUSH hits on many of these points in many of his rants.
There is no denying that you can't apply more damage to a single area in a ball group, but you also exposed yourself to take far more damage as well. That was other metas still existed and were successful. Ball groups weren't the Paper, Scissors, and Rock that they are today.
What I don't get is why you don't think having a ball is dangerous now. Burst is crazy, crazy high in this game. I can disintegrate stacked groups of 30 with 12 people instantly. Good bomb groups can completely knock out my raid if I let them get thier bomb off. We have builds running 6000 weapon damage and PROXES hitting over 18k. If you are a "ball group" you are not getting protection by standing together, you are making yourself a huge target. It's why keep defense is relatively easy if you set it up right, you know your enemy must take flags, your job is just to get yourself into a position to annihilate them when they do.
What makes groups survive is movement .spenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »Agree with Steve on this one.
DR always ran tight for maximum HPS/DPS efficiency, and when the Hijinx crew broke off from that roster Agrippa took it to the next level and plowed through thousands with his pain trains. Keeping DPS concentrated will always win. Full stop. How anyone could even debate this is beyond me. Don't try to use broken DK mechanics as leverage
There was never a time when you didn't have to stay moderately close to crown in group vs group combat yall are out to lunch.
Within healing range was the norm back then. At the very start groups stayed super close because sorcs provided by far the best heals, and those heals were all ground aoe's. Then Templars began to shine with BoL. Now fast forward a little, we're fighting TSYM and we die the first couple times because it's 24+ people stacked into a ball so tight it'd bring a tear to daniel's eye, and they're all spamming AOEs, purges, barriers, everything. We adapted, realizing that if you take two steps to the left their entire train misses you because they're only moving one direction. Then we hit their back lines, slow people, stun people, kill the ones that get caught. Maybe you get lucky and kill the leader and then he orders the group to suicide or jump out of the keep and run back to the nearest keep/outpost. AOE caps are already not helping you, so just stay in heal range. It became easy for us.
We had many GvG's against No Mercy that took up almost half of some resource nodes. No one wanted to be in one single spot so the other could wipe them in under a second. You spread out, tried to get oils down near the flag so you could hold/flip it. If you saw someone drop to a knee you did whatever you had to to go bash them so they didn't get the oil up. Fire ballistas went up in the back usually, meatbags too. Those were fun fights because you respected that the other team would kill you if you were all in one place. There's not the same fear now.
You can say that about TYSM but they held their own with everybody. Like any guild they had thier wipes and people developed countertactics, but we killed everyone: NM, Alacrity, DiE, etc. Same with Hijinx. I play with a lot of DC and AD nowadays who will occasionally describe to me how easy it was to avoid the train and wipe them, but the reality is we gave as good as we got and those same guilds were routinely steamrolled when we stayed hard on them and didn't allow them to get thier bombs off. From the beginning of the game until now, there has never been a time where a 12man didn't have the DPS to annihilate a full raid if they did it right. the meta between the larger map control groups and smaller bomb groups has always been roughly the same. Back when you did it with clouding swarm, DKS and oil pots; nowadays it's devouring swarm, meteor and prox det.
Edited by Satiar on January 7, 2016 9:42PMVehemence -- Commander and Raid Lead -- Tri-faction PvP
Knights Paravant -- Co-GM and Raid Lead -- AD Greyhost1 -
Ezareth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Maybe some of you of the old guard that are still playing this game, and that still has footage of the old days, should get together and make a documentary video...
It could be about the way the game played, and how the different changes that were introduced affecting the game mechanics caused the successive game-play changes that lead to what we have today.
It would make for an interesting experiment, and at least could provide information for new/starting game developers to what NOT to do to your game
Well there were many things that were broken then have been fixed. I think a lot of people (myself included) forget the frustrations of many of those things. (Troll Camps, Mercenary Mages, Caltrops, OP DKs, Bash-Spam, Infinite magic Harness Magicka etc, absurdly powerful cost reduction , perma-ult-emps, ) etc.
That said however, there was none of the clunky feeling of combat then that we experience now. Everyone was still using gap closers then (since half of cyrodiil was a DK Spamming invasion, talons whip) but you rarely found yourself being closed on by 5 people at once and it was unheard of to be unable to use your abilities or block etc unless you were CC'ed. Sorcs had insane mobility but relatively weak damage and most of them didn't even USE a damage shield. *** just worked then in a way that was fluid and addicting and something that we rarely experience today. That's primarily what we miss.Permanently banned from the forums for displaying dissent: ESO - The Year Behind
Too Much Bolt Escape - banned for "hacking the game to create movement not otherwise permitted by in game mechanics."
Ezareth VR16 AD Sorc - Rank 36 - Axe NA
Ezareth-Ali VR16 DC NB - Rank 20 - Chillrend NA
Ezareth PvP on Youtube3 -
Manoekin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Darnathian wrote: »Just throwing this out there. Maybe GoS should take this time off to do some training with more casual guilds and help them get better at the game? Doesn't need leads to actually give advices.
I have personally took Sotp under my wings yesterday. Took 4 of their core members including group leaders and they ran with us for 2-3hours. They said they really enjoyed what they saw and were satisfied of what they learned. I'm going to do the same with BFTP and Pact in the near future.
did you teach the raid leaders how to roll dodge and run away when a couple of the raid died instead of trying to rez them LOL
The captain will not go down with his ship!
Please don't throw personal attacks at people trying to do good things for this game.1 -
Cinnamon_Spider✭✭✭✭✭
✭
I remember the first time I saw a TYSM raid in action. Just moving my camera in their direction caused my fps to drop.spenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »Agree with Steve on this one.
DR always ran tight for maximum HPS/DPS efficiency, and when the Hijinx crew broke off from that roster Agrippa took it to the next level and plowed through thousands with his pain trains. Keeping DPS concentrated will always win. Full stop. How anyone could even debate this is beyond me. Don't try to use broken DK mechanics as leverage
There was never a time when you didn't have to stay moderately close to crown in group vs group combat yall are out to lunch.
We did it all the time. As I said, the AoE Cap patch changed everything. (and later the removal of dynamic ult gen changed it further) If you remove AoE caps today your tightly stacked ball would be crushed by an equally skilled spread out group of the samesize. Negates used to hit an entire group, same with banner, bats etc.
Yeah you stuck together as a group (always in healing range of your healers) but not face to cheeks to face to cheeks with everyone. I remember mages wrath spam with negate + meatbag with our group just wiping all these ball groups and the rage tells I'd get by their leaders. @FENGRUSH hits on many of these points in many of his rants.
There is no denying that you can't apply more damage to a single area in a ball group, but you also exposed yourself to take far more damage as well. That was other metas still existed and were successful. Ball groups weren't the Paper, Scissors, and Rock that they are today.
What I don't get is why you don't think having a ball is dangerous now. Burst is crazy, crazy high in this game. I can disintegrate stacked groups of 30 with 12 people instantly. Good bomb groups can completely knock out my raid if I let them get thier bomb off. We have builds running 6000 weapon damage and PROXES hitting over 18k. If you are a "ball group" you are not getting protection by standing together, you are making yourself a huge target. It's why keep defense is relatively easy if you set it up right, you know your enemy must take flags, your job is just to get yourself into a position to annihilate them when they do.
What makes groups survive is. I have players in my raid I know can kite, sustain and survive in bad situations by they'll just melt if I do it wrong becausespenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »Agree with Steve on this one.
DR always ran tight for maximum HPS/DPS efficiency, and when the Hijinx crew broke off from that roster Agrippa took it to the next level and plowed through thousands with his pain trains. Keeping DPS concentrated will always win. Full stop. How anyone could even debate this is beyond me. Don't try to use broken DK mechanics as leverage
There was never a time when you didn't have to stay moderately close to crown in group vs group combat yall are out to lunch.
Within healing range was the norm back then. At the very start groups stayed super close because sorcs provided by far the best heals, and those heals were all ground aoe's. Then Templars began to shine with BoL. Now fast forward a little, we're fighting TSYM and we die the first couple times because it's 24+ people stacked into a ball so tight it'd bring a tear to daniel's eye, and they're all spamming AOEs, purges, barriers, everything. We adapted, realizing that if you take two steps to the left their entire train misses you because they're only moving one direction. Then we hit their back lines, slow people, stun people, kill the ones that get caught. Maybe you get lucky and kill the leader and then he orders the group to suicide or jump out of the keep and run back to the nearest keep/outpost. AOE caps are already not helping you, so just stay in heal range. It became easy for us.
We had many GvG's against No Mercy that took up almost half of some resource nodes. No one wanted to be in one single spot so the other could wipe them in under a second. You spread out, tried to get oils down near the flag so you could hold/flip it. If you saw someone drop to a knee you did whatever you had to to go bash them so they didn't get the oil up. Fire ballistas went up in the back usually, meatbags too. Those were fun fights because you respected that the other team would kill you if you were all in one place. There's not the same fear now.
You can say that about TYSM but they held their own with everybody. Like any guild they had thier wipes and people developed countertactics, but we killed everyone: NM, Alacrity, DiE, etc. Same with Hijinx. I play with a lot of DC and AD nowadays who will occasionally describe to me how easy it was to avoid the train and wipe them, but the reality is we gave as good as we got and those same guilds were routinely steamrolled when we stayed hard on them and didn't allow them to get thier bombs off. From the beginning of the game until now, there has never been a time where a 12man didn't have the DPS to annihilate a full raid if they did it right. the meta between the larger map control groups and smaller bomb groups has always been roughly the same. Back when you did it with clouding swarm, DKS and oil pots; nowadays it's devouring swarm, meteor and prox det.
Cinn #SorcLivesMatter
Exquisite Bedlam - Sorcerer AD rank 34
Cinnamonspiderdreams - Sorcerer EP rank 24
Synaris Astarte - Templar DC rank 24
Cinnamon Spider - Nightblade AD
Youtube - Cinnamon_Spider0 -
Manoekin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Maybe some of you of the old guard that are still playing this game, and that still has footage of the old days, should get together and make a documentary video...
It could be about the way the game played, and how the different changes that were introduced affecting the game mechanics caused the successive game-play changes that lead to what we have today.
It would make for an interesting experiment, and at least could provide information for new/starting game developers to what NOT to do to your game
Quicker bug fixes and take the feedback you get from seasoned/veteran players more seriously. ZOS listened to all of the QQers who knew little about the games mechanics instead of the players they were supposedly taking feedback from. Everything good in PvP that has left this game has left because of people crying on these very forums. Oils, camps, ulti gen, mercs, chaining people up/down a keep, aoe caps, and many more probably I can't remember. Now we don't have all of those things, but I don't see the people that complained their asses off playing this game anymore either. Those people didn't care for this game. They didn't bother to learn how to play it, learn how things worked. Those are the people ZOS catered to and they're all gone. The large majority of people still PvPing are long time players who enjoyed those things and for some reason still play this game, or newer players who didn't get to experience them in the first place. If I had advice for any game developers, it would be to focus on the players who actually play your game.
Don't have much footage of pre 1.5. If you want some 1.5 footage here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wxqqe_ooMU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8jOEXT4TLg
Call it OP or what you want, but against good players or against a good group those fights are much more balanced. Too many people just complained instead of learning how to play.6 -
Satiar✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Maybe some of you of the old guard that are still playing this game, and that still has footage of the old days, should get together and make a documentary video...
It could be about the way the game played, and how the different changes that were introduced affecting the game mechanics caused the successive game-play changes that lead to what we have today.
It would make for an interesting experiment, and at least could provide information for new/starting game developers to what NOT to do to your game
Quicker bug fixes and take the feedback you get from seasoned/veteran players more seriously. ZOS listened to all of the QQers who knew little about the games mechanics instead of the players they were supposedly taking feedback from. Everything good in PvP that has left this game has left because of people crying on these very forums. Oils, camps, ulti gen, mercs, chaining people up/down a keep, aoe caps, and many more probably I can't remember. Now we don't have all of those things, but I don't see the people that complained their asses off playing this game anymore either. Those people didn't care for this game. They didn't bother to learn how to play it, learn how things worked. Those are the people ZOS catered to and they're all gone. The large majority of people still PvPing are long time players who enjoyed those things and for some reason still play this game, or newer players who didn't get to experience them in the first place. If I had advice for any game developers, it would be to focus on the players who actually play your game.
Don't have much footage of pre 1.5. If you want some 1.5 footage here:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wxqqe_ooMUhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8jOEXT4TLg
Call it OP or what you want, but against good players or against a good group those fights are much more balanced. Too many people just complained instead of learning how to play.
Yeah. Group v group always been fine by me but right now sheer numbers present a problem. At a certain point just nothing you can do.Vehemence -- Commander and Raid Lead -- Tri-faction PvP
Knights Paravant -- Co-GM and Raid Lead -- AD Greyhost1 -
Ezareth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭spenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »Agree with Steve on this one.
DR always ran tight for maximum HPS/DPS efficiency, and when the Hijinx crew broke off from that roster Agrippa took it to the next level and plowed through thousands with his pain trains. Keeping DPS concentrated will always win. Full stop. How anyone could even debate this is beyond me. Don't try to use broken DK mechanics as leverage
There was never a time when you didn't have to stay moderately close to crown in group vs group combat yall are out to lunch.
We did it all the time. As I said, the AoE Cap patch changed everything. (and later the removal of dynamic ult gen changed it further) If you remove AoE caps today your tightly stacked ball would be crushed by an equally skilled spread out group of the samesize. Negates used to hit an entire group, same with banner, bats etc.
Yeah you stuck together as a group (always in healing range of your healers) but not face to cheeks to face to cheeks with everyone. I remember mages wrath spam with negate + meatbag with our group just wiping all these ball groups and the rage tells I'd get by their leaders. @FENGRUSH hits on many of these points in many of his rants.
There is no denying that you can't apply more damage to a single area in a ball group, but you also exposed yourself to take far more damage as well. That was other metas still existed and were successful. Ball groups weren't the Paper, Scissors, and Rock that they are today.
What I don't get is why you don't think having a ball is dangerous now. Burst is crazy, crazy high in this game. I can disintegrate stacked groups of 30 with 12 people instantly. Good bomb groups can completely knock out my raid if I let them get thier bomb off. We have builds running 6000 weapon damage and PROXES hitting over 18k. If you are a "ball group" you are not getting protection by standing together, you are making yourself a huge target. It's why keep defense is relatively easy if you set it up right, you know your enemy must take flags, your job is just to get yourself into a position to annihilate them when they do.
What makes groups survive is. I have players in my raid I know can kite, sustain and survive in bad situations by they'll just melt if I do it wrong becausespenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »Agree with Steve on this one.
DR always ran tight for maximum HPS/DPS efficiency, and when the Hijinx crew broke off from that roster Agrippa took it to the next level and plowed through thousands with his pain trains. Keeping DPS concentrated will always win. Full stop. How anyone could even debate this is beyond me. Don't try to use broken DK mechanics as leverage
There was never a time when you didn't have to stay moderately close to crown in group vs group combat yall are out to lunch.
Within healing range was the norm back then. At the very start groups stayed super close because sorcs provided by far the best heals, and those heals were all ground aoe's. Then Templars began to shine with BoL. Now fast forward a little, we're fighting TSYM and we die the first couple times because it's 24+ people stacked into a ball so tight it'd bring a tear to daniel's eye, and they're all spamming AOEs, purges, barriers, everything. We adapted, realizing that if you take two steps to the left their entire train misses you because they're only moving one direction. Then we hit their back lines, slow people, stun people, kill the ones that get caught. Maybe you get lucky and kill the leader and then he orders the group to suicide or jump out of the keep and run back to the nearest keep/outpost. AOE caps are already not helping you, so just stay in heal range. It became easy for us.
We had many GvG's against No Mercy that took up almost half of some resource nodes. No one wanted to be in one single spot so the other could wipe them in under a second. You spread out, tried to get oils down near the flag so you could hold/flip it. If you saw someone drop to a knee you did whatever you had to to go bash them so they didn't get the oil up. Fire ballistas went up in the back usually, meatbags too. Those were fun fights because you respected that the other team would kill you if you were all in one place. There's not the same fear now.
You can say that about TYSM but they held their own with everybody. Like any guild they had thier wipes and people developed countertactics, but we killed everyone: NM, Alacrity, DiE, etc. Same with Hijinx. I play with a lot of DC and AD nowadays who will occasionally describe to me how easy it was to avoid the train and wipe them, but the reality is we gave as good as we got and those same guilds were routinely steamrolled when we stayed hard on them and didn't allow them to get thier bombs off. From the beginning of the game until now, there has never been a time where a 12man didn't have the DPS to annihilate a full raid if they did it right. the meta between the larger map control groups and smaller bomb groups has always been roughly the same. Back when you did it with clouding swarm, DKS and oil pots; nowadays it's devouring swarm, meteor and prox det.
Ohh it's definitely dangerous....but only to another ball group with better timing or surprise or coordination. Ball groups don't die to pugs unless they're totally overwhelmed. Your healing coupled with barrier(which reduces an 18K prox to 10K), negate and coordinated Meteor/AoE ults are going to be just as dangerous. That's why I mentioned the AvA "Horse Gank" equivalent comment. Because that is what PvP has been reduced to.
You guys farm pugs in your groups until you run into another group and then it is usually decided in seconds who wins based upon surprise, timing, and coordination of various skills.
And back in the date entire battles were won and lost with negates. I remember learning with Alacrity how Healing springs was bad and never to use it because your enemy could refill their resources by casting a negate on their raid while standing in them and such. There was definitely some clumping but also a lot of spreading out at times as well.
Nowadays it's pretty much all packing as tightly on top of crown as possible and you'd be stupid not to.
Permanently banned from the forums for displaying dissent: ESO - The Year Behind
Too Much Bolt Escape - banned for "hacking the game to create movement not otherwise permitted by in game mechanics."
Ezareth VR16 AD Sorc - Rank 36 - Axe NA
Ezareth-Ali VR16 DC NB - Rank 20 - Chillrend NA
Ezareth PvP on Youtube1 -
Satiar✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭spenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »Agree with Steve on this one.
DR always ran tight for maximum HPS/DPS efficiency, and when the Hijinx crew broke off from that roster Agrippa took it to the next level and plowed through thousands with his pain trains. Keeping DPS concentrated will always win. Full stop. How anyone could even debate this is beyond me. Don't try to use broken DK mechanics as leverage
There was never a time when you didn't have to stay moderately close to crown in group vs group combat yall are out to lunch.
We did it all the time. As I said, the AoE Cap patch changed everything. (and later the removal of dynamic ult gen changed it further) If you remove AoE caps today your tightly stacked ball would be crushed by an equally skilled spread out group of the samesize. Negates used to hit an entire group, same with banner, bats etc.
Yeah you stuck together as a group (always in healing range of your healers) but not face to cheeks to face to cheeks with everyone. I remember mages wrath spam with negate + meatbag with our group just wiping all these ball groups and the rage tells I'd get by their leaders. @FENGRUSH hits on many of these points in many of his rants.
There is no denying that you can't apply more damage to a single area in a ball group, but you also exposed yourself to take far more damage as well. That was other metas still existed and were successful. Ball groups weren't the Paper, Scissors, and Rock that they are today.
What I don't get is why you don't think having a ball is dangerous now. Burst is crazy, crazy high in this game. I can disintegrate stacked groups of 30 with 12 people instantly. Good bomb groups can completely knock out my raid if I let them get thier bomb off. We have builds running 6000 weapon damage and PROXES hitting over 18k. If you are a "ball group" you are not getting protection by standing together, you are making yourself a huge target. It's why keep defense is relatively easy if you set it up right, you know your enemy must take flags, your job is just to get yourself into a position to annihilate them when they do.
What makes groups survive is. I have players in my raid I know can kite, sustain and survive in bad situations by they'll just melt if I do it wrong becausespenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »Agree with Steve on this one.
DR always ran tight for maximum HPS/DPS efficiency, and when the Hijinx crew broke off from that roster Agrippa took it to the next level and plowed through thousands with his pain trains. Keeping DPS concentrated will always win. Full stop. How anyone could even debate this is beyond me. Don't try to use broken DK mechanics as leverage
There was never a time when you didn't have to stay moderately close to crown in group vs group combat yall are out to lunch.
Within healing range was the norm back then. At the very start groups stayed super close because sorcs provided by far the best heals, and those heals were all ground aoe's. Then Templars began to shine with BoL. Now fast forward a little, we're fighting TSYM and we die the first couple times because it's 24+ people stacked into a ball so tight it'd bring a tear to daniel's eye, and they're all spamming AOEs, purges, barriers, everything. We adapted, realizing that if you take two steps to the left their entire train misses you because they're only moving one direction. Then we hit their back lines, slow people, stun people, kill the ones that get caught. Maybe you get lucky and kill the leader and then he orders the group to suicide or jump out of the keep and run back to the nearest keep/outpost. AOE caps are already not helping you, so just stay in heal range. It became easy for us.
We had many GvG's against No Mercy that took up almost half of some resource nodes. No one wanted to be in one single spot so the other could wipe them in under a second. You spread out, tried to get oils down near the flag so you could hold/flip it. If you saw someone drop to a knee you did whatever you had to to go bash them so they didn't get the oil up. Fire ballistas went up in the back usually, meatbags too. Those were fun fights because you respected that the other team would kill you if you were all in one place. There's not the same fear now.
You can say that about TYSM but they held their own with everybody. Like any guild they had thier wipes and people developed countertactics, but we killed everyone: NM, Alacrity, DiE, etc. Same with Hijinx. I play with a lot of DC and AD nowadays who will occasionally describe to me how easy it was to avoid the train and wipe them, but the reality is we gave as good as we got and those same guilds were routinely steamrolled when we stayed hard on them and didn't allow them to get thier bombs off. From the beginning of the game until now, there has never been a time where a 12man didn't have the DPS to annihilate a full raid if they did it right. the meta between the larger map control groups and smaller bomb groups has always been roughly the same. Back when you did it with clouding swarm, DKS and oil pots; nowadays it's devouring swarm, meteor and prox det.
Ohh it's definitely dangerous....but only to another ball group with better timing or surprise or coordination. Ball groups don't die to pugs unless they're totally overwhelmed. Your healing coupled with barrier(which reduces an 18K prox to 10K), negate and coordinated Meteor/AoE ults are going to be just as dangerous. That's why I mentioned the AvA "Horse Gank" equivalent comment. Because that is what PvP has been reduced to.
You guys farm pugs in your groups until you run into another group and then it is usually decided in seconds who wins based upon surprise, timing, and coordination of various skills.
And back in the date entire battles were won and lost with negates. I remember learning with Alacrity how Healing springs was bad and never to use it because your enemy could refill their resources by casting a negate on their raid while standing in them and such. There was definitely some clumping but also a lot of spreading out at times as well.
Nowadays it's pretty much all packing as tightly on top of crown as possible and you'd be stupid not to.
Again, sort of. You don't need a ball group to bomb a ball group. 1/2 the numbers suffice with the burst available in this game. You have to be good with play and timing but yeah, 12 offensive ultis and prox dets can melt almost anyone. It's what I do when I run small, run lots of offensive ultis, a nova or two, I can mess it up or be outplayqed but I can ruin anyone like that. It's why I'm always dubious regarding increased burst, the TTK so low in even the most defensible positions, upping it dramatically is gonna plain silly.
Fights may be decided in seconds but there's a lot of foreplay. Rage and I played "bait the ultis" at Nickle gate and Ash over almost 10 minutes last night. Might be boring to watch but trying to maneuver into the alpha strike position can be challenging and entertainingVehemence -- Commander and Raid Lead -- Tri-faction PvP
Knights Paravant -- Co-GM and Raid Lead -- AD Greyhost1 -
Rylana✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »Agree with Steve on this one.
DR always ran tight for maximum HPS/DPS efficiency, and when the Hijinx crew broke off from that roster Agrippa took it to the next level and plowed through thousands with his pain trains. Keeping DPS concentrated will always win. Full stop. How anyone could even debate this is beyond me. Don't try to use broken DK mechanics as leverage
There was never a time when you didn't have to stay moderately close to crown in group vs group combat yall are out to lunch.
We did it all the time. As I said, the AoE Cap patch changed everything. (and later the removal of dynamic ult gen changed it further) If you remove AoE caps today your tightly stacked ball would be crushed by an equally skilled spread out group of the samesize. Negates used to hit an entire group, same with banner, bats etc.
Yeah you stuck together as a group (always in healing range of your healers) but not face to cheeks to face to cheeks with everyone. I remember mages wrath spam with negate + meatbag with our group just wiping all these ball groups and the rage tells I'd get by their leaders. @FENGRUSH hits on many of these points in many of his rants.
There is no denying that you can't apply more damage to a single area in a ball group, but you also exposed yourself to take far more damage as well. That was other metas still existed and were successful. Ball groups weren't the Paper, Scissors, and Rock that they are today.
What I don't get is why you don't think having a ball is dangerous now. Burst is crazy, crazy high in this game. I can disintegrate stacked groups of 30 with 12 people instantly. Good bomb groups can completely knock out my raid if I let them get thier bomb off. We have builds running 6000 weapon damage and PROXES hitting over 18k. If you are a "ball group" you are not getting protection by standing together, you are making yourself a huge target. It's why keep defense is relatively easy if you set it up right, you know your enemy must take flags, your job is just to get yourself into a position to annihilate them when they do.
What makes groups survive is. I have players in my raid I know can kite, sustain and survive in bad situations by they'll just melt if I do it wrong becausespenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »Agree with Steve on this one.
DR always ran tight for maximum HPS/DPS efficiency, and when the Hijinx crew broke off from that roster Agrippa took it to the next level and plowed through thousands with his pain trains. Keeping DPS concentrated will always win. Full stop. How anyone could even debate this is beyond me. Don't try to use broken DK mechanics as leverage
There was never a time when you didn't have to stay moderately close to crown in group vs group combat yall are out to lunch.
Within healing range was the norm back then. At the very start groups stayed super close because sorcs provided by far the best heals, and those heals were all ground aoe's. Then Templars began to shine with BoL. Now fast forward a little, we're fighting TSYM and we die the first couple times because it's 24+ people stacked into a ball so tight it'd bring a tear to daniel's eye, and they're all spamming AOEs, purges, barriers, everything. We adapted, realizing that if you take two steps to the left their entire train misses you because they're only moving one direction. Then we hit their back lines, slow people, stun people, kill the ones that get caught. Maybe you get lucky and kill the leader and then he orders the group to suicide or jump out of the keep and run back to the nearest keep/outpost. AOE caps are already not helping you, so just stay in heal range. It became easy for us.
We had many GvG's against No Mercy that took up almost half of some resource nodes. No one wanted to be in one single spot so the other could wipe them in under a second. You spread out, tried to get oils down near the flag so you could hold/flip it. If you saw someone drop to a knee you did whatever you had to to go bash them so they didn't get the oil up. Fire ballistas went up in the back usually, meatbags too. Those were fun fights because you respected that the other team would kill you if you were all in one place. There's not the same fear now.
You can say that about TYSM but they held their own with everybody. Like any guild they had thier wipes and people developed countertactics, but we killed everyone: NM, Alacrity, DiE, etc. Same with Hijinx. I play with a lot of DC and AD nowadays who will occasionally describe to me how easy it was to avoid the train and wipe them, but the reality is we gave as good as we got and those same guilds were routinely steamrolled when we stayed hard on them and didn't allow them to get thier bombs off. From the beginning of the game until now, there has never been a time where a 12man didn't have the DPS to annihilate a full raid if they did it right. the meta between the larger map control groups and smaller bomb groups has always been roughly the same. Back when you did it with clouding swarm, DKS and oil pots; nowadays it's devouring swarm, meteor and prox det.
Ohh it's definitely dangerous....but only to another ball group with better timing or surprise or coordination. Ball groups don't die to pugs unless they're totally overwhelmed. Your healing coupled with barrier(which reduces an 18K prox to 10K), negate and coordinated Meteor/AoE ults are going to be just as dangerous. That's why I mentioned the AvA "Horse Gank" equivalent comment. Because that is what PvP has been reduced to.
You guys farm pugs in your groups until you run into another group and then it is usually decided in seconds who wins based upon surprise, timing, and coordination of various skills.
And back in the date entire battles were won and lost with negates. I remember learning with Alacrity how Healing springs was bad and never to use it because your enemy could refill their resources by casting a negate on their raid while standing in them and such. There was definitely some clumping but also a lot of spreading out at times as well.
Nowadays it's pretty much all packing as tightly on top of crown as possible and you'd be stupid not to.
Again, sort of. You don't need a ball group to bomb a ball group. 1/2 the numbers suffice with the burst available in this game. You have to be good with play and timing but yeah, 12 offensive ultis and prox dets can melt almost anyone. It's what I do when I run small, run lots of offensive ultis, a nova or two, I can mess it up or be outplayqed but I can ruin anyone like that. It's why I'm always dubious regarding increased burst, the TTK so low in even the most defensible positions, upping it dramatically is gonna plain silly.
Fights may be decided in seconds but there's a lot of foreplay. Rage and I played "bait the ultis" at Nickle gate and Ash over almost 10 minutes last night. Might be boring to watch but trying to maneuver into the alpha strike position can be challenging and entertainingspenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »Agree with Steve on this one.
DR always ran tight for maximum HPS/DPS efficiency, and when the Hijinx crew broke off from that roster Agrippa took it to the next level and plowed through thousands with his pain trains. Keeping DPS concentrated will always win. Full stop. How anyone could even debate this is beyond me. Don't try to use broken DK mechanics as leverage
There was never a time when you didn't have to stay moderately close to crown in group vs group combat yall are out to lunch.
We did it all the time. As I said, the AoE Cap patch changed everything. (and later the removal of dynamic ult gen changed it further) If you remove AoE caps today your tightly stacked ball would be crushed by an equally skilled spread out group of the samesize. Negates used to hit an entire group, same with banner, bats etc.
Yeah you stuck together as a group (always in healing range of your healers) but not face to cheeks to face to cheeks with everyone. I remember mages wrath spam with negate + meatbag with our group just wiping all these ball groups and the rage tells I'd get by their leaders. @FENGRUSH hits on many of these points in many of his rants.
There is no denying that you can't apply more damage to a single area in a ball group, but you also exposed yourself to take far more damage as well. That was other metas still existed and were successful. Ball groups weren't the Paper, Scissors, and Rock that they are today.
What I don't get is why you don't think having a ball is dangerous now. Burst is crazy, crazy high in this game. I can disintegrate stacked groups of 30 with 12 people instantly. Good bomb groups can completely knock out my raid if I let them get thier bomb off. We have builds running 6000 weapon damage and PROXES hitting over 18k. If you are a "ball group" you are not getting protection by standing together, you are making yourself a huge target. It's why keep defense is relatively easy if you set it up right, you know your enemy must take flags, your job is just to get yourself into a position to annihilate them when they do.
What makes groups survive is. I have players in my raid I know can kite, sustain and survive in bad situations by they'll just melt if I do it wrong becausespenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »Agree with Steve on this one.
DR always ran tight for maximum HPS/DPS efficiency, and when the Hijinx crew broke off from that roster Agrippa took it to the next level and plowed through thousands with his pain trains. Keeping DPS concentrated will always win. Full stop. How anyone could even debate this is beyond me. Don't try to use broken DK mechanics as leverage
There was never a time when you didn't have to stay moderately close to crown in group vs group combat yall are out to lunch.
Within healing range was the norm back then. At the very start groups stayed super close because sorcs provided by far the best heals, and those heals were all ground aoe's. Then Templars began to shine with BoL. Now fast forward a little, we're fighting TSYM and we die the first couple times because it's 24+ people stacked into a ball so tight it'd bring a tear to daniel's eye, and they're all spamming AOEs, purges, barriers, everything. We adapted, realizing that if you take two steps to the left their entire train misses you because they're only moving one direction. Then we hit their back lines, slow people, stun people, kill the ones that get caught. Maybe you get lucky and kill the leader and then he orders the group to suicide or jump out of the keep and run back to the nearest keep/outpost. AOE caps are already not helping you, so just stay in heal range. It became easy for us.
We had many GvG's against No Mercy that took up almost half of some resource nodes. No one wanted to be in one single spot so the other could wipe them in under a second. You spread out, tried to get oils down near the flag so you could hold/flip it. If you saw someone drop to a knee you did whatever you had to to go bash them so they didn't get the oil up. Fire ballistas went up in the back usually, meatbags too. Those were fun fights because you respected that the other team would kill you if you were all in one place. There's not the same fear now.
You can say that about TYSM but they held their own with everybody. Like any guild they had thier wipes and people developed countertactics, but we killed everyone: NM, Alacrity, DiE, etc. Same with Hijinx. I play with a lot of DC and AD nowadays who will occasionally describe to me how easy it was to avoid the train and wipe them, but the reality is we gave as good as we got and those same guilds were routinely steamrolled when we stayed hard on them and didn't allow them to get thier bombs off. From the beginning of the game until now, there has never been a time where a 12man didn't have the DPS to annihilate a full raid if they did it right. the meta between the larger map control groups and smaller bomb groups has always been roughly the same. Back when you did it with clouding swarm, DKS and oil pots; nowadays it's devouring swarm, meteor and prox det.
Ohh it's definitely dangerous....but only to another ball group with better timing or surprise or coordination. Ball groups don't die to pugs unless they're totally overwhelmed. Your healing coupled with barrier(which reduces an 18K prox to 10K), negate and coordinated Meteor/AoE ults are going to be just as dangerous. That's why I mentioned the AvA "Horse Gank" equivalent comment. Because that is what PvP has been reduced to.
You guys farm pugs in your groups until you run into another group and then it is usually decided in seconds who wins based upon surprise, timing, and coordination of various skills.
And back in the date entire battles were won and lost with negates. I remember learning with Alacrity how Healing springs was bad and never to use it because your enemy could refill their resources by casting a negate on their raid while standing in them and such. There was definitely some clumping but also a lot of spreading out at times as well.
Nowadays it's pretty much all packing as tightly on top of crown as possible and you'd be stupid not to.
Again, sort of. You don't need a ball group to bomb a ball group. 1/2 the numbers suffice with the burst available in this game. You have to be good with play and timing but yeah, 12 offensive ultis and prox dets can melt almost anyone. It's what I do when I run small, run lots of offensive ultis, a nova or two, I can mess it up or be outplayqed but I can ruin anyone like that. It's why I'm always dubious regarding increased burst, the TTK so low in even the most defensible positions, upping it dramatically is gonna plain silly.
Fights may be decided in seconds but there's a lot of foreplay. Rage and I played "bait the ultis" at Nickle gate and Ash over almost 10 minutes last night. Might be boring to watch but trying to maneuver into the alpha strike position can be challenging and entertaining
Trying to play "where is Rylana gonna go" has got to be annoying. I intentionally lead GoS groups (or led) in a completely random manner, by design. The idea was to always be a step ahead, best made plans thwarted because instead of going the obvious way, here we go the other way, even into a less defensible position cause it didnt make sense, but suddenly turned into "crap we gotta move or they gonna nail us from down there"
Id always have people in TS question what the actual hell I was doing. id make up something on the spot like "im herding them into a circle" or "we are baiting them"
Then all at once id see the moment, count 1 2 3, and KABOOM, catch people pants down, dead.
My personal favorite is acting like youre gonna turtle the upper ring? have a crapload of siege up, make it look all inviting...
Stack the raid at the door, pop everything as the wall goes down, and charge out like madmen. lololol. Win or lose, its just priceless watching the reaction.Edited by Rylana on January 7, 2016 10:13PM@rylanadionysis == Closed Beta Tester October 2013 == Retired October 2016 == Uninstalled @ One Tamriel Release == Inactive Indefinitely
Ebonheart Pact: Lyzara Dionysis - Sorc - AR 37 (Former Empress of Blackwater Blade and Haderus) == Shondra Dionysis - Temp - AR 23 == Arrianaya Dionysis - DK - AR 17
Aldmeri Dominion: Rylana Dionysis - DK - AR 25 == Kailiana - NB - AR 21 == Minerva Dionysis - Temp - AR 21 == Victoria Dionysis - Sorc - AR 13
Daggerfall Covenant: Dannika Dionysis - DK - AR 21 == The Catman Rises - Temp - AR 15 (Former Emperor of Blackwater Blade)
Forum LOL Champion (retired) == Black Belt in Ballista-Fu == The Last Vice Member == Praise Cheesus == Electro-Goblin0
