So how do you defeat a Sorcerer as a Templar?

ScooberSteve

Stamplar all the way. So what you will my mains are sorc and templar.

Kas

one thing you can do is go for lots of bastion, run harness magicka, healing ward and eclipse. really be on top of your own shields. many sorcs somewhat rely on critsurge, especially when not fighting other sorcs and not beong able to get ife from crits sometimes confuses them,

then play the game of long fights. always use purifying to remove curse. the biggest problem is an offense that pierces shields thanks to buggy sweeps. toppling charge is actually quite good. the damage is decent and if combined with reflects, the smaller distance can lead to surpiring timings. a good reflect or a meteor + toppling stun when you can predict out of stamina can soemtimes peirce shields and then sweeps can cleanup iwthin a second.

eclipse spam on CC immuity cooldown should let you win against all sorcs without stamina reg (either from build or often from drinks). against others, i hope for a good reflect. I have had several fights ending with a draw, though because non of us could peice the shields of the other.

PS: have enough points in hardy and don't be a vamp. you really want to avoid going down a a well-times burst that kills you even if you have harness magicka up.

that being said, i enjoy the game more since i stopped going solo on a templar but on my NB instead. my templar is now a spellpower cure group-bi*ch and even though I'm still playing my NB rather bad, I kill about as much in 1vX as I did with my templar. Soloing on my templar, however, I was relatively fine against sorcs. Stamina dk's with pot with immovable + major expedition (i use them myself but i need the advantage), however, were incredibly annoying. igneuos shield for the sweeps bug, no harness magicka against them, not much to pruge with p-ritual, etc. if i didn't have shuffle on my bar, i knew i was in troiuble and even with suffle, some dk's were a problem

Ezareth

Minno wrote: »

Ah yes those crits. Are those numbers against paper-armor targets with no impen numbers/elemental resistance?

Jest aside, yea it sucks jabs is channeled and I want to use another magicka ability that's cheaper than 2k per cast, but sadly not viable for this Templar lol.

100 CPs into Elemental Mastery, 66 CPs into Elfborn and a metric ton of spelldamage/magicka. The 17.5Ks are with MOTG from degeneration. 17.5K heals are nice too ( =

I'm sure the higher end crits are against people not running crit-resistance. I think the largest Crit I've seen in vMSA is 43K(With MOTG and Elemental Drain).

david31741 wrote: »

Dark Flare and RD are very viable alternatives and were on my pvp back bar - if I had a Maelstorm Destro staff I would most certainly take my templar out of retirement and give a non-jabs Magika Templar a go.

I don't think I've killed anyone with just that combo since pre 2.0 - but with some destro support I think it might work again.

Maelstrom Staves are garbage in PvP. I have a sharpened inferno staff and don't use it in PvP because it's noticeably less effective. You lose 4% Spell penetration and your weapon enchant damaging ability. The only time it is worth it is if you have a gear setup that can't fit an extra spell damage component by use of your staff such as two 5 piece sets (including one with rings/neck).

Ezareth

Joy_Division wrote: »

I dunno.

Some of the supposed go to advice given in this thread is not exactly reliable.

If you rely on eclipse as your anti-sorc tool, it is going to fail you as often as it works. If you hit a sorcerer with eclipse, when they break it, they now have CC immunity where you are now completely exposed to any attack from a sorcerer. If you mistime the next cast and the sorc still has CC immunity (the white circles are not easy to see with all the eye candy in this game, especially if the sorc is using lightning form) or is even blocking, you just wasted a global cooldown and are still exposed. I do *not* recommend relying on this skill in a defensive fashion at all because of these defects, to say nothing of the possibility you might have another magic opponent to deal with and eclipse now is totally useless. A templar using eclipse will not can cannot consistently rely on it as a defensive tool which means in the long run, you are going to lose to that sorcerer because it will fail at some point. I use the skill, but I do so offensively and consider any reflects as icing on the cake.

Defensive posture is a superior defensive option by far, but if you are a magic templar, spamming this isn't exactly conducive to maintaining your stamina pool - and if you get fragged, you will probably die if you don't have the stamina to break it. Good sorcerers have learned long ago how to deal with reflect.

Even if you nail the defensive part down, you still have to deal with a sorcerer's shields and your class has little and very awkward burst. If she uses harness you are totally screwed. As it is, hardened ward is a beast and you lose are losing your bonus to jab damage because of a stupid bug. Your best burst is to get eclipse, meteor, and toppling charge to hit at the same time. If the sorc isn't blocking and you get the stun and DoT damage, that may be enough. Timing isn't easy and throwing prox det is ideal but makes it harder.

The templar can't afford to make a mistake.

As I said it's all about timing and using it properly. The Templar who just spam it on the sorc before they're even engaged are the least effective at it. But a good Templar will use eclipse on a Sorc the moment the sorc goes into overload and lets fly his first overload, or after the sorc gets a few hits on you and is ready about ready to release a fragment.

The primary benefit is it is a ranged stamina drain that doesn't expose you. I kill so many templars when they are mid toppling charge with overload its not even funny. You're most vulnerable as a templar when you're attacking. The only ones I have difficulty/cant kill are the ones playing defensive.

My Sorc build uses Bloodspawn shoulders to supplement my extra stamina usage from defensive posture. A well crafted build is designed to offset any weaknesses or holes in the build.

Agree that harness pretty much makes your chances at killing the sorc NIL if he's worth anything. I would be careful of Meteor against any sorc running sword and board though for obvious reasons. It's been a long time since I've been hit with one ( =

Docmandu

ZeFeZ wrote: »

I have no clue...

Call in your buddies!

Docmandu

ScooberSteve wrote: »

Toppling charge stuns and their shields are broken by the time they get back up. If they streak toppling charge again

You'll end up standing there with none of your skills working, if you use toppling charge too much

zornyan

ScooberSteve wrote: »

Toppling charge stuns and their shields are broken by the time they get back up. If they streak toppling charge again

One you'll be locked in a stun half the time because topping charge is bugged, it's also useless for a stam build templar.

What do you plan on using to get their shields down, all 25k of them once stacked? Jabs is bugged and is basically useless against shields now.

ScooberSteve

Yes mine used to bug out all the time not anymore and if it does I know how to break it. It still doesnt work sometimes to. Deffinately a bugged skill but i still love it and work thru it.

Any person who has played a sorc knows that you have to cast 4 things before you even think about attacking . Both classes can be played well and every build is going to have weaknesses. Sorcs can be killed if your quick. By the time they have cast their 4 spells I usually kill them.

Reverb

I am much more effective against sorcerers as a Stamplar than I was when I was magic spec. sorcs will always have the advantage in range fights against other magic users.

I use Eclipse and Defensive Stance, and watch them wreck themselves with their own frags. Then Crit Rush to stay close while they try to get away (because our class gap closer is a joke) and wrecking blow, heavy attack, jabs combos.

Joy_Division

Ezareth wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I dunno.

Some of the supposed go to advice given in this thread is not exactly reliable.

If you rely on eclipse as your anti-sorc tool, it is going to fail you as often as it works. If you hit a sorcerer with eclipse, when they break it, they now have CC immunity where you are now completely exposed to any attack from a sorcerer. If you mistime the next cast and the sorc still has CC immunity (the white circles are not easy to see with all the eye candy in this game, especially if the sorc is using lightning form) or is even blocking, you just wasted a global cooldown and are still exposed. I do *not* recommend relying on this skill in a defensive fashion at all because of these defects, to say nothing of the possibility you might have another magic opponent to deal with and eclipse now is totally useless. A templar using eclipse will not can cannot consistently rely on it as a defensive tool which means in the long run, you are going to lose to that sorcerer because it will fail at some point. I use the skill, but I do so offensively and consider any reflects as icing on the cake.

Defensive posture is a superior defensive option by far, but if you are a magic templar, spamming this isn't exactly conducive to maintaining your stamina pool - and if you get fragged, you will probably die if you don't have the stamina to break it. Good sorcerers have learned long ago how to deal with reflect.

Even if you nail the defensive part down, you still have to deal with a sorcerer's shields and your class has little and very awkward burst. If she uses harness you are totally screwed. As it is, hardened ward is a beast and you lose are losing your bonus to jab damage because of a stupid bug. Your best burst is to get eclipse, meteor, and toppling charge to hit at the same time. If the sorc isn't blocking and you get the stun and DoT damage, that may be enough. Timing isn't easy and throwing prox det is ideal but makes it harder.

The templar can't afford to make a mistake.

As I said it's all about timing and using it properly. The Templar who just spam it on the sorc before they're even engaged are the least effective at it. But a good Templar will use eclipse on a Sorc the moment the sorc goes into overload and lets fly his first overload, or after the sorc gets a few hits on you and is ready about ready to release a fragment.

The primary benefit is it is a ranged stamina drain that doesn't expose you. I kill so many templars when they are mid toppling charge with overload its not even funny. You're most vulnerable as a templar when you're attacking. The only ones I have difficulty/cant kill are the ones playing defensive.

My Sorc build uses Bloodspawn shoulders to supplement my extra stamina usage from defensive posture. A well crafted build is designed to offset any weaknesses or holes in the build.

Agree that harness pretty much makes your chances at killing the sorc NIL if he's worth anything. I would be careful of Meteor against any sorc running sword and board though for obvious reasons. It's been a long time since I've been hit with one ( =

Correct, it's all about timing. I have had best results with meteor, eclipse, and then focused charge. If you can get that charge to land before the sorc (or any reflecting opponent) can break it, you got them stunned and in a snare DoT. In general I try to eclipse any target I charge as it does afford some protection and it's a way to get a bit of burst damage (more if you get lucky and they cast something).

Tempalrs really need to be cautious around sorcerers and patiently wait for a potential burst. Or, survive log enough for some NB with the shieldbreaker set to come along

ScooberSteve

And if they curse me I wait a little then block and you take no damage at all. If they beat me usual because they have better resource management. Im pretty lazy got to start using eclipse lol

Reverb

Reverb wrote: »

I am much more effective against sorcerers as a Stamplar than I was when I was magic spec. sorcs will always have the advantage in range fights against other magic users.

I use Eclipse and Defensive Stance, and watch them wreck themselves with their own frags. Then Crit Rush to stay close while they try to get away (because our class gap closer is a joke) and wrecking blow, heavy attack, jabs combos.

I want to add, you'll never get a good sorc down with this cheesy rotation <eyes Ezareth> but it will work on most.

Minno

Docmandu wrote: »

ScooberSteve wrote: »

Toppling charge stuns and their shields are broken by the time they get back up. If they streak toppling charge again

You'll end up standing there with none of your skills working, if you use toppling charge too much

But can hit for 6k (higher if it crits but obviously not saying the number in a shield sorc thread lol).

Not a spam skill but can help coordinate burst and if used at proper intervals, reduces moment of bugged effects.

Docmandu

ScooberSteve wrote: »

And if they curse me I wait a little then block and you take no damage at all. If they beat me usual because they have better resource management. Im pretty lazy got to start using eclipse lol

Why block and waste stamina when all it takes is Purifying to wipe that curse away.. it's a cheap spell, even for stamplars.. and if the sorc CF's when you are busy purging that Curse, you'll negate his frag too.

Abob

If you are stamina use defensive posture.

You're welcome.

zornyan

Docmandu wrote: »

ScooberSteve wrote: »

And if they curse me I wait a little then block and you take no damage at all. If they beat me usual because they have better resource management. Im pretty lazy got to start using eclipse lol

Why block and waste stamina when all it takes is Purifying to wipe that curse away.. it's a cheap spell, even for stamplars.. and if the sorc CF's when you are busy purging that Curse, you'll negate his frag too.

Since when does purify stop a frag?

Ezareth

zornyan wrote: »

Docmandu wrote: »

ScooberSteve wrote: »

And if they curse me I wait a little then block and you take no damage at all. If they beat me usual because they have better resource management. Im pretty lazy got to start using eclipse lol

Why block and waste stamina when all it takes is Purifying to wipe that curse away.. it's a cheap spell, even for stamplars.. and if the sorc CF's when you are busy purging that Curse, you'll negate his frag too.

Since when does purify stop a frag?

Since it's been bugged like this for ages.

zornyan

Ezareth wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Docmandu wrote: »

ScooberSteve wrote: »

And if they curse me I wait a little then block and you take no damage at all. If they beat me usual because they have better resource management. Im pretty lazy got to start using eclipse lol

Why block and waste stamina when all it takes is Purifying to wipe that curse away.. it's a cheap spell, even for stamplars.. and if the sorc CF's when you are busy purging that Curse, you'll negate his frag too.

Since when does purify stop a frag?

Since it's been bugged like this for ages.

Never noticed that lol.

So when you get a frag spammer just spam purify and lol?

Fat_Cat45

This is how. Just use Wrecking Blow when they go to cast their Magicka Detonation.

Ezareth

zornyan wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Docmandu wrote: »

ScooberSteve wrote: »

And if they curse me I wait a little then block and you take no damage at all. If they beat me usual because they have better resource management. Im pretty lazy got to start using eclipse lol

Why block and waste stamina when all it takes is Purifying to wipe that curse away.. it's a cheap spell, even for stamplars.. and if the sorc CF's when you are busy purging that Curse, you'll negate his frag too.

Since when does purify stop a frag?

Since it's been bugged like this for ages.

Never noticed that lol.

So when you get a frag spammer just spam purify and lol?

Cast it when the frag is in the air and *poof*

Minno

Ezareth wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Docmandu wrote: »

ScooberSteve wrote: »

And if they curse me I wait a little then block and you take no damage at all. If they beat me usual because they have better resource management. Im pretty lazy got to start using eclipse lol

Why block and waste stamina when all it takes is Purifying to wipe that curse away.. it's a cheap spell, even for stamplars.. and if the sorc CF's when you are busy purging that Curse, you'll negate his frag too.

Since when does purify stop a frag?

Since it's been bugged like this for ages.

Not a bug, working as intended

zornyan

Ezareth wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Docmandu wrote: »

ScooberSteve wrote: »

And if they curse me I wait a little then block and you take no damage at all. If they beat me usual because they have better resource management. Im pretty lazy got to start using eclipse lol

Why block and waste stamina when all it takes is Purifying to wipe that curse away.. it's a cheap spell, even for stamplars.. and if the sorc CF's when you are busy purging that Curse, you'll negate his frag too.

Since when does purify stop a frag?

Since it's been bugged like this for ages.

Never noticed that lol.

So when you get a frag spammer just spam purify and lol?

Cast it when the frag is in the air and *poof*

Just tested it, found someone on a keep wall spamming frags and stood there spamming purify. ...they must have tried for a good solid minute, then they just stood there bemused..

Must remember for future frag spammers

david31741

Future frag spammer checking in. I didn't know about purifying cancelling frags - and I've played templar since release in pvp - lol...I've been playing my Sorc in pvp for the last few weeks and hadn't noticed either!

I'll close out of this thread with saying solo templars in pvp are as rare as hens teeth. Chances of their being good is equally low.

Ezareth

Fat_Cat45 wrote: »

This is how. Just use Wrecking Blow when they go to cast their Magicka Detonation.

You can't exactly count on a NB marking your targets and desyncing their client either @Fat_Cat45

I'm not a fan of that triple shield stacking build @sypherpk2ub17_ESO was using. That harness magicka shield gives you a false sense of security and I'm not sure what a player of his caliber is doing running around on a sorc with only 36K magicka but his hardened ward could only be 10-11K at most with that build. I would have animation cancelled a power overload with a dodge roll into your face on the first WB wind up and the second one would have killed you.

Single target magicka detonation is just weak.

Xeven

Ezareth wrote: »

Single target magicka detonation is just weak.

Agreed but it is this spell stacked with curse fury frags ultimate - that is the only alternative to Overload if you actually want to kill *** in this patch. I think it's awesome that you are wrecking people with your beastmode Overload build and playstyle, but I sincerely hope that this does not end up being our only viable playstyle.

zornyan

Neither do i , overlol is just...silly!

david31741

Ezareth wrote: »

Fat_Cat45 wrote: »

This is how. Just use Wrecking Blow when they go to cast their Magicka Detonation.

You can't exactly count on a NB marking your targets and desyncing their client either @Fat_Cat45

I'm not a fan of that triple shield stacking build @sypherpk2ub17_ESO was using. That harness magicka shield gives you a false sense of security and I'm not sure what a player of his caliber is doing running around on a sorc with only 36K magicka but his hardened ward could only be 10-11K at most with that build. I would have animation cancelled a power overload with a dodge roll into your face on the first WB wind up and the second one would have killed you.

Single target magicka detonation is just weak.

It is because he runs around trees and *** letting newbs kill themselves due to dumb moves on their part - he builds for ultra survival and just lets people make mistakes. he doesn't build to kill good players 1v1 - cause he can't anymore. he won't stop running in circles if there is a good player on him - seen this many times over and he alwasy seems to die after a long ass chase around *** without even firing off offensive skills.

Don't get me wrong - good for him for his social apsect of the game/entertainment value - but I can't stand that run around the environment BS and showboating. I've killed him many times and was only annoyed with the experience - he just wants viewers/popularity.

Wreuntzylla

There are three changes I would like to the magicka templar: (1) mobility; (2) purifying ritual sticks until you exhaust the number of effects that can be removed; and (3) channeled focus sticks to you like it did before they nerfed it.

Wall of Text follows.

I have patiently eaten hundreds of deaths trying to figure out how to kill a sorc on my templar. Even the good ones can sometimes be killed. The biggest issue I have is that a templar must play flawlessly. Even one mistake and you are dead. In some cases, you can't win even with flawless play.

You cannot apply significant pressure until you run the sorc out of stamina. You must spend all your time purifying, reflecting, blocking, healing, throwing down channeled focus and some light attacks to build ultimate. Even with dark flare and the high resists I run, if I try to pressure sorcs toe-to-toe, I die before taking down their shields. So, instead, I start to dump when they are cc'd, and if they have the stamina to break, I go right back to keeping myself alive. If they don't break, I finish the dump and sometimes they die. Unfortunately, sorcs can streak, drop mines to immobilize, streak and reset the fight when low on stamina. Magicka templars cannot reset. So, typically the best I can hope for against a good, well geared sorc is to drag the fight out indefinitely.

I can't win against a sorc that uses the curse, prox det and dawnbreaker combo. A good sorc will pressure you and cc when your health is about 75% (you can't always keep it at 100%). If I am out of stam, it's iffy whether I'll survive. Even if I happen to survive, they can repeat that combo every 15 seconds or so, and I have to block it each time to avoid rng death. So I eventually run out of stam even with 18k and decent regen. Neither total dark nor reflective stance can help with this.

I can kill some good sorcs with dark flare, depending on their build. Sweeps is a waste. With sweeps, you take huge damage and are immobilized following them due to mines and the sweeps damage is borked on shields. No other damage available to a templar seems capable of getting through shields and health in the duration of a cc.

Forget templar ultis for 1v1. They are either to weak or the sorc can just streak out of them.

I typically have no issues at all with overload spammers unless I screw up. In fact, I get all happy inside when I see the lightning hands. I call them happy hands! Even very good players that rely on overload can kill themselves almost instantly. The animation of an explosion in a black bubble and the player falling over is pretty funny. Smart sorcs that fire from point blank range are tough to anticipate and much harder to deal with. In any case, please buff the damage on overload by 50%.

If I run into a reflect build, I dark flare the second I see flappy wings or clappy hands. You will always get the second reflect, whether through total dark or defensive stance. People using defensive stance are the tougher of the two because some of them animation cancel clappy hands and it just looks like a small change in lighting. If a sorc uses overload and defensive stance, I have to make sure to light attack weave with defensive stance. Iffy proposition.

Unresistable damage glyphs. It's no shield breaker, but it does cause a sorc to pay a little more attention to their health.

k2blader

Ezareth wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Keep Eclipse up to drain them of stam and protect you from damage.
Purify off the crystal fragments when they're cast at you (they wont hit you) as well as curse if needed.
Run Sword and Board with defensive posture.
Use a dodge roll when needed when they aren't eclipsed.

LoS will also make you unkillable as a sorc must use bolt escape constantly to keep up with you as you run around a tree etc.

You can easily become unkillable by a great sorc with a defensively played magicka templar but you will never kill a great sorc without some great stroke of luck or him messing up and overloading his face off when you eclipse him. I can't recall ever being killed by a magicka templar without some sort of bug affecting me.

Pretty much this.

I always keep defensive posture up (dw and sword and board magicka templar) I don't use eclipse as the cc immunity is pretty usless and it's not too reliable as a skill.

Defensive posture also works on some other handy skills too, and ultimates like meteor.

Keep harness magicka up.

That's it really, you'll never burst a sorc down As a magicka build hardened + harness can get some 18-20k worth of shields.

Never put down that much damage, then get through the minimum 20k odd hp in a couple of seconds as templars have no burst damage.

Just stay defensive and hope they haven't got friends on the way, or you have, or they get bored or make a huge mistake.

Otherwise just ignore them.

Eclipse is the one ability that you have that will save you from a sorc like me. The Templars I can't kill are the ones running eclipse because you can't purify overload and I also run reflect and defensive rune. You could survive by playing the run around the tree game but that isn't always a sure thing either there could be a 15-17.5K overload crit around the corner with a defensive rune/defensive stance double proc in the mix.

With the right combination of dodge rolling and BoL spam you can also survive long enough to run me out of ult but I wouldn't advise doing anything that could proc my defensive rune.

I've fought over lol sorcs before, I just make sure to play defensively.

It's hard to make bar space too, just too limited. Out of 10 slots
Bar one
inner light
1 structured entropy on dw bar
Puncturing sweeps
Toppling charge or dark flare or javelim
Breath of life

Ulti bat swarm

Second bar

Mist form
Inner light
Defensive posture
Channeled focus
Purifying ritual

Ulti meteor or dawnbreaker or soul assault depending on what I'm doing and where I am

Giving up dark flare or toppling charge would literially give me no other offensive move other than sweeps, I'm also them left without any sort of CC / knockdown

You could swap out inner light for vamps bane.
It gives the same spell crit, provides a quick cheap way to gain minor spell power buff, helps generate ulti.

Downside you lose the +% increase mag inner light provides. And mage guild regen/max mag passives.

But it would free up an extra slot for eclipse and add a DOT to help with shields.

I could, but as said it's hard to give up 7% magicks and 2% regen, sometimes I used radiant too since I run vamp to help against insta gib gankers.

Not too keen on vamps bane, prefer dark flare for the 35% healing debuff.

@Ezareth kinda , but for reasons stated above its what generally has worked for me, and as said sometimes I need radiant too.

It's a shame bar space is so Damm tight , I would use other skills but it's hard to justify some buggy/messy skills .

Only other spammable dps skill I like is trapping webs, better damage than vampire's vane with the snare effect.

Yea its tough.

Dark flare hard to give up too.

Trapping webs is a good snare and decent dps.
But its magicka cost is so ugly. With the wrong stats you could go OOM too fast when vamps bane is less than 2k.

True, although I never have sustain issues with my new build, 1700 buffed regen + channeled focus my magicka pool never drops low enough to even need a pot, only ever use pots in Vma when doing boss fights to keep up pressure nowdays.

That's the biggest templar issue, some of our skills are great (when they work ) and the rest are just plain terrible.

Why can't eclipse work like dk scales? And just stay as a spell only reflect?

Why does every single one of our bloody skills give cc immunity.

Another issue brought to lighr, dark flare, why is the first cast of this skill a longer cast time at approx 1.5-1.8 seconds? Then subsequent others are 1.1 as tooltip states.

Fighting a DK spamming wings is already bad enough as a Sorc. Eclipse at least you have to CC break and then you have until your CC immunity is up to try and burst down the Templar. Not easy at all.

If Sorcs had a spammable non projectile ability that did actual damage it'd be a different story.

I'm surprised any templars like Dark Flare tbh. I kill the majority of my Templars that cast that by reflecting it and then overloading them in the stun.

Re. the bold part, yeah S&B sorcs would not have a problem with DF but most sorcs do not run S&B. As a resto-destro sorc the anti-heal property of DF can be pretty nasty.

WreckfulAbandon

Purge everything and stand in Channeled Focus healing yourself. Use Total Dark and wait for them to screw up big time.

Although what's more likely to happen is they'll give up and hightail it outta there after a few minutes.

If you're a stamplar, go on the offensive, a short fight will favor you but a long fight will favor them.