RNG and players giving up

Nikkor

I am trying to be as objective about this as possible. That being said...

Ever since IC I feel the RNG has been so low and so much of a grind that the balance is just too far in the direction of "keep us farming and busy until the next update"

we need a good little swing in the other direction so that the work feels as though there is a good chance for some reward.

I think we are at a point in the game on consoles at least where you are going to lose even more player base if they can't EVER get a helm they want no matter how much they farm a dungeon. Or if you do 5 enchanting writs and never get a single KUTA. Or if you open 20 treasure maps for one piece of v16 gear and 19 v15's of the new sets. "even if they have treasure hunter champion passive on"

just saying. I want more people playing the game not less.

BalticBlues

I already gave up on helmets and veteran pledges.
I have many shoulders, but I've got ZERO helmets.
The RNG indeed has been killing the pledges fun for me.

Lord Xanhorn

There's no reason why the last boss and the chest shouldn't both drop the shoulders and the helm. Or God forbid a token system.

tinythinker

Try going for the Master Angler title. RNG is a cruel tease. Until they adjust it for dungeon drops, though...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sltSm5mUniw

nimander99

RNG = Inflating content because no one has a better idea on how to make things fun...

dimensional

RNG is a necessity given a finite amount of item rewards. I'm sure it could be tweaked to provide a more overall satisfying experience for a wider amount of players, however.

Ourorboros

Nikkor wrote: »

I am trying to be as objective about this as possible. That being said...

Ever since IC I feel the RNG has been so low and so much of a grind that the balance is just too far in the direction of "keep us farming and busy until the next update"

I think we are at a point in the game on consoles at least where you are going to lose even more player base if they can't EVER get a helm they want no matter how much they farm a dungeon. Or if you do 5 enchanting writs and never get a single KUTA. Or if you open 20 treasure maps for one piece of v16 gear and 19 v15's of the new sets. "even if they have treasure hunter champion passive on"

To start, RNG is neither high nor low, it simply IS. You may mean drop rates are low. I understand the complaint, but honestly a /facepalm is deserved if you think you should get a Kuta from only 5 writs, I went MONTHS doing writs before I saw Kuta from a writ. RNG is a little like getting hit by lightening. That's the nature of random chance. If players quite over this, are they really the kind of player who would stick around more than a few months anyway? It is frustrating to not get a drop for certain items, especially if a lot of grinding is done. On the other hand, how valuable would those sought after items be if they dropped left and right? One thing, there seem to be unlucky characters. Switch and try with an alt. I definitely have alts with better and worse drops.

Justice31st

RNG wouldn't be an issue if all dungeon loot were tokens that could be traded to a merchant for any drops; not binding certain end game gear such as the engine guardian helmet to only Dark Shade Caverns or molag kenna to only White Gold Tower.

J2JMC

Ourorboros wrote: »

Nikkor wrote: »

I am trying to be as objective about this as possible. That being said...

Ever since IC I feel the RNG has been so low and so much of a grind that the balance is just too far in the direction of "keep us farming and busy until the next update"

I think we are at a point in the game on consoles at least where you are going to lose even more player base if they can't EVER get a helm they want no matter how much they farm a dungeon. Or if you do 5 enchanting writs and never get a single KUTA. Or if you open 20 treasure maps for one piece of v16 gear and 19 v15's of the new sets. "even if they have treasure hunter champion passive on"

To start, RNG is neither high nor low, it simply IS. You may mean drop rates are low. I understand the complaint, but honestly a /facepalm is deserved if you think you should get a Kuta from only 5 writs, I went MONTHS doing writs before I saw Kuta from a writ. RNG is a little like getting hit by lightening. That's the nature of random chance. If players quite over this, are they really the kind of player who would stick around more than a few months anyway? It is frustrating to not get a drop for certain items, especially if a lot of grinding is done. On the other hand, how valuable would those sought after items be if they dropped left and right? One thing, there seem to be unlucky characters. Switch and try with an alt. I definitely have alts with better and worse drops.

I assure you engine guardian, spc, molag kena and the like would still be valuable even if they had a 100 percent drop rate. Low drop rates are understandable on BoE items because it promotes an economy. However, BoP is a completely different story. At the very least you should be able to trade gear with people in the dungeon as you acquire it.

Phinix1

10 fragments for ONE glass motif pattern is asinine. After over a month of doing daily writs I have my first pattern. I should be well on my way to set completion in that time, or at the very least have half the set. One item per month is unacceptable.

Also, the random traits on set drops in DLC's is probably the most unpopular thing ZOS has ever done. EVERYBODY hates it. That is a sign of a bad design decision.

To remedy this, I suggest ZOS allow 9-trait crafters to re-trait any gear. They could do it from their inventory, from the bank, or from a trade window.

Justice31st

Phinix1 wrote: »

10 fragments for ONE glass motif pattern is asinine. After over a month of doing daily writs I have my first pattern. I should be well on my way to set completion in that time, or at the very least have half the set. One item per month is unacceptable.

Also, the random traits on set drops in DLC's is probably the most unpopular thing ZOS has ever done. EVERYBODY hates it. That is a sign of a bad design decision.

To remedy this, I suggest ZOS allow 9-trait crafters to re-trait any gear. They could do it from their inventory, from the bank, or from a trade window.

And there goes the group dungeon population...

svartorn

I've been told that helms drop in various vet dungeons.

I've yet to see one drop for me.

/played is over 60 days.

Spacemonkey

They need smaller scale competitive PvP, and competitive Co-op PvE.

Team PvP (matchups) would go a long way to keep people interested and playing for the PvP side of things. From there you can diminish the amount of campaigns (to have higher population in them) and set seasons to fit with team PvP tournaments or whatever. (hug amount of stuff you can do in that direction actually...)

Co-op competitive PvE. I dont know what the logic is on this but doing group dungeons are fun for quests the FIRST TIME WHEN ITS NEW. After that, anything tedious will suck. Repeating running through 2 hour content over and over isnt cool. The best co-op multiplayer I've played was ME3 (very surprisingly). It's short (10-40 min depending on difficulty). It's challenging (platinum o_O). You can choose the difficulty and get rewards accordingly(and honestly the toughest difficulty is more for bragging rights, you can get by with the rewards from the preceding tier). You can easily set up your team, switch roles, switch strategies etc... And you get rewards even if you fail. (just a lot less) - rewards let you buy a variety of different tiered chests that narrow the RNG to what you want. <- This system is proven, I don't get why it's so hard to put something in place that works for ZOS. And for crying out loud can we please get rid of all the useless traits on REWARDS? Random world loot or even dungeon loot, fine, I dont mind. But on actual rewards?? Exploration? Reallyyyyy?????

And theres something about surviving waves, thats much more fun than crawling through a dungeon. (We've seen this from games like COD(zombies), Halo(firefight), ME3, Dragon Age (where the entire multiplayer generally sucked except for the last stages when you need to survive), etc...)

Phinix1

Justice31st wrote: »

And there goes the group dungeon population...

Well in all honesty, if forcing people into a miserable RNG grind they HATE was the only thing dragging people into dungeons in the first place, the game was in a sorry state and poised to fail.

Clearly to save dungeon population requires better incentive, like a TOKEN SYSTEM which people have been nagging ZOS for over the past... YEAR? Yet to hear any response on that but just because twisting a kid's arm gets them to give their lunch money doesn't mean it is a practical long-term solution!

But that's another topic.

Justice31st

Phinix1 wrote: »

Justice31st wrote: »

And there goes the group dungeon population...

Well in all honesty, if forcing people into a miserable RNG grind they HATE was the only thing dragging people into dungeons in the first place, the game was in a sorry state and poised to fail.

Clearly to save dungeon population requires better incentive, like a TOKEN SYSTEM which people have been nagging ZOS for over the past... YEAR? Yet to hear any response on that but just because twisting a kid's arm gets them to give their lunch money doesn't mean it is a practical long-term solution!

But that's another topic.

I am all for it if they add a token system then.

Derra

BalticBlues wrote: »

I already gave up on helmets and veteran pledges.
I have many shoulders, but I've got ZERO helmets.
The RNG indeed has been killing the pledges fun for me.

This. I don´t even bother. RNG is not fun. I´ll glady do 20 pledges if i get to choose the shoulder i want (trait + armor type) aswell as 20x the same dungeon to get the helm i want (trait + armor type).

This games pve reward system is poorly thought out and if they´d let an intern reword the basics it would probably come out better than it is now.
The pvp reward system is even worse because there is nothing worthwile to be found in the first place.
It´s flatout terribly bad design in terms of itemisation/rewards.

G0ku

Ourorboros wrote: »

If players quite over this, are they really the kind of player who would stick around more than a few months anyway?

I was there since May ´14. The rng introduced with IC together with loading screens killed it for me...

Phinix1

Derra wrote: »

BalticBlues wrote: »

I already gave up on helmets and veteran pledges.
I have many shoulders, but I've got ZERO helmets.
The RNG indeed has been killing the pledges fun for me.

This. I don´t even bother. RNG is not fun. I´ll glady do 20 pledges if i get to choose the shoulder i want (trait + armor type) aswell as 20x the same dungeon to get the helm i want (trait + armor type).

This games pve reward system is poorly thought out and if they´d let an intern reword the basics it would probably come out better than it is now.
The pvp reward system is even worse because there is nothing worthwile to be found in the first place.
It´s flatout terribly bad design in terms of itemisation/rewards.

I just hope ZOS reads feedback like this.

Too often threads they SHOULD pay attention to get lost in a torrent of flame threads that don't matter in the grand scheme.

Cathexis

tinythinker wrote: »

Try going for the Master Angler title. RNG is a cruel tease. Until they adjust it for dungeon drops, though...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sltSm5mUniw

lol

Shadesofkin

5 tokens for completing a Bronze pledge, 10 tokens for completing a Silver pledge, 15 tokens for completing a Gold pledge.

The average player will earn 25 tokens per day assuming they only play a single character regularly.

200 tokens allows a player to purchase *either* a helmet or shoulder coffer of his choice, but weight and trait vary. Coffer includes soul gem and gold as well as a chance at a rare motif chapter.

There. Content continues to be played, players have access to whatever might be the new hotness each time the game is updated. Reward and Invested time get matched more evenly. World saved.

Recremen

I definitely feel like there's something "off" about the RNG in this game. Whether it's murdering trolls for skulls for literally months with no luck, or 10 Malubeth shoulders versus a couple of other kinds, there does seem to be something in the RNG defying all expectations of normal distribution. And more to the point, a little RNG grind isn't the worst thing in the world, but a lot of RNG grind (or a lot of grind in general) is not something I find desirable in a game. I think it's reasonable to expect to be able to achieve everything in an MMO without it becoming your entire life. That's why the Wrothgar daily quest achievements aren't so bad compared to some of the Imperial City achievements. 30 dailies of easch type? Sure, that's fine. 100 Trove Scamps AND 100 of the other kind? Dreadful. One more reason Wrothgar is overall the best new content in the game, imho.

Jitterbug

I pretty much wrote off any drop set that I can't get on the guild store. I don't want to spend my time in game doing something I don't think is fun. Which is RNG farming.

Tryxus

I've just sacrificed a goat to the Mad God and prayed:

"May Lord Sheogorath cheesify the RNG of this game"

Molag_Crow

I already gave up on attempting to craft a full v16 set, so I'll stick with phoenix. I haven't even been able to upgrade my gear to legendary, but I know players on PC will laugh at that because they had plenty of time to stock up on mats and took advantage of multiple hirelings "exploit" a while back.

kevlarto_ESO

Justice31st wrote: »

Phinix1 wrote: »

Justice31st wrote: »

And there goes the group dungeon population...

Well in all honesty, if forcing people into a miserable RNG grind they HATE was the only thing dragging people into dungeons in the first place, the game was in a sorry state and poised to fail.

Clearly to save dungeon population requires better incentive, like a TOKEN SYSTEM which people have been nagging ZOS for over the past... YEAR? Yet to hear any response on that but just because twisting a kid's arm gets them to give their lunch money doesn't mean it is a practical long-term solution!

But that's another topic.

I am all for it if they add a token system then.

I can go for a token system myself, this game has always had poor loot drops and the chances to get them pretty slim, I would rather run the dungeons a few times and collect tokens to exchange for what I want over some rng that seems to hate me, I have the worst the worst luck with rng it seems.

OGLezard

Shadesofkin wrote: »

5 tokens for completing a Bronze pledge, 10 tokens for completing a Silver pledge, 15 tokens for completing a Gold pledge.

The average player will earn 25 tokens per day assuming they only play a single character regularly.

200 tokens allows a player to purchase *either* a helmet or shoulder coffer of his choice, but weight and trait vary. Coffer includes soul gem and gold as well as a chance at a rare motif chapter.

There. Content continues to be played, players have access to whatever might be the new hotness each time the game is updated. Reward and Invested time get matched more evenly. World saved.

this! So much this! @ZOS_GinaBruno please pass this idea along

I agree with this thread so much! The RNG is making me bitter towards this game. Love the living crap out of it, hate having a second job called ESO....... 2 months of doing dailies(just started caring bout doing them recently) on two characters (both silver and gold v16) and I have 29 spawn of mephalas shoulders (varying traits and weight, all deconstructed) and just yesterday I got vaulkyn....... Not a single Nierinth to be seen......

VCOH, over 100+ runs.... no helm..... hard to find groups for this even when it IS the pledge, so most the time I resort to two manning it when my buddy decides he wants to play.

Now I need to farm vmsa (roughly 1 hour 45 minutes to 2 hours for me to complete) for jewelry that I have yet to see after a bunch of completions.... the RNG just makes me so sad, oh so sad.

EDIT: To touch more on the tokens, make it a new currency that we can deposit into our bank, and NOT BOUND to each character we have, yet bound to our account like Tel Var Stones

Timeetyo

This is exactly why most of my friends (many of whom were very dedicated - high CP players) have already left the game and will never return.

ZOS is so worried about stretching their content and forcing us to buy expansions that they are driving away players who would be buying more future expansions.....go figure.

Gidorick

The token system should be Dwemer Coins. 'Cause lore!

Faugaun

dimensional wrote: »

RNG is a necessity given a finite amount of item rewards. I'm sure it could be tweaked to provide a more overall satisfying experience for a wider amount of players, however.

Reference finite number of item rewards ... consider there are 11 ish traits (including the awful ones like training), there are 12-14 equipment slots (depending on if you equip one or two hand weapons). If each boss only drops one of those 12 items with a random trait the to get a full collection (every combination of every armor/weapon in the set) it will take 133 item drops (for 12 slots) assuming there are no repeats (which there would be). So if you called the drop chance 25% and targeted 12 specific items all dropped by different bosses in different dungeons then it would require 100s of dungeons to be run in order to acquire the ideal traits on the set that you want (assuming they were all BoP, naturally with a market place it becomes complicated). Multiple this by people's desires to try new things and new combos. Heck of you just wanted to collect all the pieces from all the sets from dungeons ... it would require 44 runs of each dungeon.. at a minimum

There are 20ish dungeons at 44 runs per that becomes 880 total dungeon runs .... that's a lot of runs to just get all the dungeon drop pieces.

I guess my point is that there are enough sets and traits that it's not really necessary to have pittance drop rates.

dimensional

Faugaun wrote: »

I guess my point is that there are enough sets and traits that it's not really necessary to have pittance drop rates.

And nowhere in my post did I say that the drop rates needed to be terrible. In fact my immediately proceeding sentence says that I support it being tweaked. I simply claimed that RNG in and of itself is an inescapable aspect of RPG loot mechanics.

Shadesofkin

dimensional wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

I guess my point is that there are enough sets and traits that it's not really necessary to have pittance drop rates.

And nowhere in my post did I say that the drop rates needed to be terrible. In fact my immediately proceeding sentence says that I support it being tweaked. I simply claimed that RNG in and of itself is an inescapable aspect of RPG loot mechanics.

which is why I think the 200 tokens for a guaranteed shoulder or helmet of (rng based) weight and trait would work to bring the level of effort vs reward to a more acceptable level without trivializing anything.