A desperate plea for ZOS: Please remove Animation cancelling..

Jade1986

The Uninvited wrote: »

laced wrote: »

Note the amount of agrees the original poster got and then compare that to the people defending animation cancelling. It is clear what the people want. And the people that don't come on the forums probably don't even know what it is, and when they see it, it probably boils down to cheating to them. So better to be rid of it.

32 agrees? You're saying that's what the people want based on 32 agrees?

Man, 75% of the players I meet in the game use animation cancelling AND are not on the forum. You're trolling, right?

Really? I could say the same thing about people wanting it taken out. For people that care about the subject, they come to the forums, and from the ones that care about it, most have agreed with the original poster, and ones that don't know about it, say people are cheating because they don't know about it, and end up quitting pvp because of it. Just because a tiny minority enjoys it because it is "competitive" or "takes skill", which it is not, and does not, does not mean it is good for the pvp population in the long run. If you befriend ONLY people that like it, of course the numbers will be skewed. Most of the people that hate it have flat out quit pvp, which would explain why numbers are so low most of the time, amongst other numerous things that ZoS refuses to tweak, fix, or optimize. They cannot balance the game around something they cannot see. I know how to AC, and it looks beyond stupid. Like the players are doing a robot dance off and whoever dies got served ala southpark style. Dumb unintended mechanics are dumb.

IF it were intended, and it was encouraged by ZoS, you would see it in the pvp videos, you would see an in game tutorial. But you don't, and there isn't one. Just because people explain it on youtube does not make it ok.

The Uninvited

laced wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

laced wrote: »

Note the amount of agrees the original poster got and then compare that to the people defending animation cancelling. It is clear what the people want. And the people that don't come on the forums probably don't even know what it is, and when they see it, it probably boils down to cheating to them. So better to be rid of it.

32 agrees? You're saying that's what the people want based on 32 agrees?

Man, 75% of the players I meet in the game use animation cancelling AND are not on the forum. You're trolling, right?

Really? I could say the same thing about people wanting it taken out. For people that care about the subject, they come to the forums, and from the ones that care about it, most have agreed with the original poster, and ones that don't know about it, say people are cheating because they don't know about it, and end up quitting pvp because of it. Just because a tiny minority enjoys it because it is "competitive" or "takes skill", which it is not, and does not, does not mean it is good for the pvp population in the long run. If you befriend ONLY people that like it, of course the numbers will be skewed. Most of the people that hate it have flat out quit pvp, which would explain why numbers are so low most of the time, amongst other numerous things that ZoS refuses to tweak, fix, or optimize. They cannot balance the game around something they cannot see. I know how to AC, and it looks beyond stupid. Like the players are doing a robot dance off and whoever dies got served ala southpark style. Dumb unintended mechanics are dumb.

IF it were intended, and it was encouraged by ZoS, you would see it in the pvp videos, you would see an in game tutorial. But you don't, and there isn't one. Just because people explain it on youtube does not make it ok.

I could see people finding it annoying in pvp, I am mostly a pve player and all the pve players I know use it. And that are a lot of players. You can not base your conclusion only on the pvp community and than say only a "tiny minority" enjoys it.

Kaliki

The Uninvited wrote: »

I could see people finding it annoying in pvp, I am mostly a pve player and all the pve players I know use it. And that are a lot of players. You can not base your conclusion only on the pvp community and than say only a "tiny minority" enjoys it.

Just because most ppl do it, doesn't mean they like it.
To me it just means having to push more buttons, but it doesn't change anything about the fact that many animations feel sluggish.

I think this purported added responsiveness through weaving is purely psychological. In fact it does not give you more control over your character. All it does is double or triple the amount of button pushes necessary, and create a gap between players who don't do it and those who do it.

Shunravi

Kaliki wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

I could see people finding it annoying in pvp, I am mostly a pve player and all the pve players I know use it. And that are a lot of players. You can not base your conclusion only on the pvp community and than say only a "tiny minority" enjoys it.

Just because most ppl do it, doesn't mean they like it.
To me it just means having to push more buttons, but it doesn't change anything about the fact that many animations feel sluggish.

I think this purported added responsiveness through weaving is purely psychological. In fact it does not give you more control over your character. All it does is double or triple the amount of button pushes necessary, and create a gap between players who don't do it and those who do it.

I'd say its the same kind of gap between someone who min/maxes their gear and someone who doesn't. Both are choices on the players part, and both affect the outcome of an encounter. Both are also readily accessible to all, again, its a choice.

Jura23

Shunravi wrote: »

Kaliki wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

I could see people finding it annoying in pvp, I am mostly a pve player and all the pve players I know use it. And that are a lot of players. You can not base your conclusion only on the pvp community and than say only a "tiny minority" enjoys it.

Just because most ppl do it, doesn't mean they like it.
To me it just means having to push more buttons, but it doesn't change anything about the fact that many animations feel sluggish.

I think this purported added responsiveness through weaving is purely psychological. In fact it does not give you more control over your character. All it does is double or triple the amount of button pushes necessary, and create a gap between players who don't do it and those who do it.

I'd say its the same kind of gap between someone who min/maxes their gear and someone who doesn't. Both are choices on the players part, and both affect the outcome of an encounter. Both are also readily accessible to all, again, its a choice.

Yeah. Min/maxer will get wrecked because he has only 1 good stat.

Kaliki

You can't really compare the two.

Min/maxing gear to a fairly competitive level does not take much more effort than reading some readily available guides.
You do it once every expansion and are good to go, those with more time and motivation can and will do more.
Also, min maxing is about setting yourself goals to reach by getting the gear that is good for you.

Animation cancelling is always the same...
Its nothing more than having to push two buttons instead of one.
Zenimax might as well add an option in settings that adds a light attack before every skill or expressedly allow macroing it.
I just don't see it adding any depth to the combat system.

Combos however that would allow to efficiently carry out two attacks in quick succession which would open up possibilities and advanced skill theorycrafting...

ToRelax

I think most of you QQers either have no clue how the cancelling works or think it's mostly weaving light/medium attacks.

In update 1.6, the animation system was overhauled. One of the effects was that one could not cancel a skill with the "fake dodge roll" anymore, that a character performs when falling long distances. That alone made me hate the new animations already, it felt terrible unresponsive and with no good reason.

Being able to bash, block or dodge the moment you need to is crucial in PvP. Not being able to cancel skills with dodgerolls would make dodge roll a far weaker mechanic for any build, because it wouldn't save time anymore (pretty stupid for a defensive mechanic). Cancelling skills with weapon swap allows a player to make use of more different skills in combat without slowing him down 2 GCDs.

Seriously, weaving in normal attacks is the least of my concerns.

Hiero_Glyph

ToRelax wrote: »

I think most of you QQers either have no clue how the cancelling works or think it's mostly weaving light/medium attacks.

In update 1.6, the animation system was overhauled. One of the effects was that one could not cancel a skill with the "fake dodge roll" anymore, that a character performs when falling long distances. That alone made me hate the new animations already, it felt terrible unresponsive and with no good reason.

Being able to bash, block or dodge the moment you need to is crucial in PvP. Not being able to cancel skills with dodgerolls would make dodge roll a far weaker mechanic for any build, because it wouldn't save time anymore (pretty stupid for a defensive mechanic). Cancelling skills with weapon swap allows a player to make use of more different skills in combat without slowing him down 2 GCDs.

Seriously, weaving in normal attacks is the least of my concerns.

You misunderstand, you would still be able to cancel any skill with a dodge roll or bash, you would just inadvertently cancel the skill that is being used as well unless it was far enough along in the animation process. This would not create less responsive gameplay but instead would promote bash interrupts or other skills being used as you could preemptively interrupt a potential cast. This would not only create more skillful play but also make combat far more reactive as doing a rotation would require slightly more time but you would be at risk to having that rotation interrupted, either directly or by needing to react to an incoming attack.

usmcjdking

ToRelax wrote: »

I think most of you QQers either have no clue how the cancelling works or think it's mostly weaving light/medium attacks.

In update 1.6, the animation system was overhauled. One of the effects was that one could not cancel a skill with the "fake dodge roll" anymore, that a character performs when falling long distances. That alone made me hate the new animations already, it felt terrible unresponsive and with no good reason.

Being able to bash, block or dodge the moment you need to is crucial in PvP. Not being able to cancel skills with dodgerolls would make dodge roll a far weaker mechanic for any build, because it wouldn't save time anymore (pretty stupid for a defensive mechanic). Cancelling skills with weapon swap allows a player to make use of more different skills in combat without slowing him down 2 GCDs.

Seriously, weaving in normal attacks is the least of my concerns.

lol.

The most important skill in any serious online PVP battle is timing and positioning. Thanks to animation cancelling, we can gleefully ignore both of those in favor of excessive button mashing.

Waffennacht

That's silly.

Button mashing huh?

Like one of the above posts, you push the same rotation just faster.

To me its absolutely no different than the turning speed in any FPS game. I don't turn my camera speed any higher, but those players that do have an advantage. They have a faster response speed. They have faster reflexes.

Button mashing is just hitting random buttons or hitting the same button desperately trying to get something to happen. You know, jump kick on mortal kombat.

AC is not button mashing, its faster response speed, if you can't do it then get better eye hand coordination.

ToRelax

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

I think most of you QQers either have no clue how the cancelling works or think it's mostly weaving light/medium attacks.

In update 1.6, the animation system was overhauled. One of the effects was that one could not cancel a skill with the "fake dodge roll" anymore, that a character performs when falling long distances. That alone made me hate the new animations already, it felt terrible unresponsive and with no good reason.

Being able to bash, block or dodge the moment you need to is crucial in PvP. Not being able to cancel skills with dodgerolls would make dodge roll a far weaker mechanic for any build, because it wouldn't save time anymore (pretty stupid for a defensive mechanic). Cancelling skills with weapon swap allows a player to make use of more different skills in combat without slowing him down 2 GCDs.

Seriously, weaving in normal attacks is the least of my concerns.

You misunderstand, you would still be able to cancel any skill with a dodge roll or bash, you would just inadvertently cancel the skill that is being used as well unless it was far enough along in the animation process. This would not create less responsive gameplay but instead would promote bash interrupts or other skills being used as you could preemptively interrupt a potential cast. This would not only create more skillful play but also make combat far more reactive as doing a rotation would require slightly more time but you would be at risk to having that rotation interrupted, either directly or by needing to react to an incoming attack.

The only thing I'd even bother bashing then would be a Soul Assault. And like I said, dodge roll would become pretty useless, I like dodge rolls though. You would have to make bash, block and dodge roll way more powerful to make them worth their GCDs.
I have no idea how this would "create more skillful play" either, would just slow it down because you need to be in an even better position than now to start combos, so you don't waste resources... and slower gameplay means less pressure, means less demand on timing and positioning and overall less skillful play. Not to mention you don't have to time your skills around the enemy's dodge rolls anymore because they just don't dodge mostly anyway.

usmcjdking

Waffennacht wrote: »

That's silly.

Button mashing huh?

Like one of the above posts, you push the same rotation just faster.

To me its absolutely no different than the turning speed in any FPS game. I don't turn my camera speed any higher, but those players that do have an advantage. They have a faster response speed. They have faster reflexes.

Button mashing is just hitting random buttons or hitting the same button desperately trying to get something to happen. You know, jump kick on mortal kombat.

AC is not button mashing, its faster response speed, if you can't do it then get better eye hand coordination.

It's button mashing. Educated and purposeful button mashing, but still button mashing. No reason to properly position yourself and absolutely no risk associated when you can just "block/dodge" whenever you want to. Faster combat, sure, but still button mashing. Animations exist for balancing purposes.

Competetive games that take themselves seriously will always have an animation cooldown in the event you follow through with it, because it punishes recklessness. Animation cancelling lends to it.

Either way you are talking to a brick wall.

dday3six

usmcjdking wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

That's silly.

Button mashing huh?

Like one of the above posts, you push the same rotation just faster.

To me its absolutely no different than the turning speed in any FPS game. I don't turn my camera speed any higher, but those players that do have an advantage. They have a faster response speed. They have faster reflexes.

Button mashing is just hitting random buttons or hitting the same button desperately trying to get something to happen. You know, jump kick on mortal kombat.

AC is not button mashing, its faster response speed, if you can't do it then get better eye hand coordination.

It's button mashing. Educated and purposeful button mashing, but still button mashing. No reason to properly position yourself and absolutely no risk associated when you can just "block/dodge" whenever you want to. Faster combat, sure, but still button mashing. Animations exist for balancing purposes.

Competetive games that take themselves seriously will always have an animation cooldown in the event you follow through with it, because it punishes recklessness. Animation cancelling lends to it.

Either way you are talking to a brick wall.

A few points.

Competitive Fighting Games heavily feature animation canceling.

Cool downs often lead to more button mashing as players tend to que up one action then hammer the input of the next.

Because of the rather large range of even melee skills (7m) poistioning is going to be less important regardless of animation canceling, quick blocks or i-frames during dodges. The game isn't set up to play like say the Souls series were postioning against your opponent or even with regards to their weapon choice is an integral part of combat.

Waffennacht

usmcjdking wrote: »

Either way you are talking to a brick wall.

... I think I maybe.

Want a game with cool downs, play Neverwinter.

What are you talking about? Neverwinter is the definition of button mashing. Its A, X, Y, RB, A, X, Y, repeat. You may need to move, maybe.

In ESO position is insanely important. With walking too close will eliminate a CF or walking thru a WB cancels it, or the 28m range limit, or the LoS, or the combat vs out of combat regen combined with cloak, the DK elevation cap on certain moves. Position is FAR More important than any other mmo I now of.

With wards, heals, potions, channels, block, dodge, stamina management, magicka management, this is the least button mashing multi player game I have played.

But im thinking you are a PC user, at which point im wondering why you are (or any PCer with any complaints) here? Go play one of the other millions... unless this game is so unique you can't walk away, at which point nut up and deal.

Shunravi

usmcjdking wrote: »

Competetive games that take themselves seriously will always have an animation cooldown in the event you follow through with it, because it punishes recklessness. Animation cancelling lends to it.

Which competitive games are we talking about here? MOBAS? Fighters? FPS? MMOs? All have animation canceling in one form or another.

Lava_Croft

File under: Nice try to get meaningful discussion but sadly most of the people partaking have no clue.

Oh well. More important matters are at hand!

usmcjdking

Shunravi wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Competetive games that take themselves seriously will always have an animation cooldown in the event you follow through with it, because it punishes recklessness. Animation cancelling lends to it.

Which competitive games are we talking about here? MOBAS? Fighters? FPS? MMOs? All have animation canceling in one form or another.

As it relates to ESO in name only. The main difference between just about any other game out there is that the animation is being superceded by another full animation, not suppressed.

Jowrik

Lava_Croft wrote: »

File under: Nice try to get meaningful discussion but sadly most of the people partaking have no clue.

Oh well. More important matters are at hand!

Yes, quite right

Hiero_Glyph

ToRelax wrote: »

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

I think most of you QQers either have no clue how the cancelling works or think it's mostly weaving light/medium attacks.

In update 1.6, the animation system was overhauled. One of the effects was that one could not cancel a skill with the "fake dodge roll" anymore, that a character performs when falling long distances. That alone made me hate the new animations already, it felt terrible unresponsive and with no good reason.

Being able to bash, block or dodge the moment you need to is crucial in PvP. Not being able to cancel skills with dodgerolls would make dodge roll a far weaker mechanic for any build, because it wouldn't save time anymore (pretty stupid for a defensive mechanic). Cancelling skills with weapon swap allows a player to make use of more different skills in combat without slowing him down 2 GCDs.

Seriously, weaving in normal attacks is the least of my concerns.

You misunderstand, you would still be able to cancel any skill with a dodge roll or bash, you would just inadvertently cancel the skill that is being used as well unless it was far enough along in the animation process. This would not create less responsive gameplay but instead would promote bash interrupts or other skills being used as you could preemptively interrupt a potential cast. This would not only create more skillful play but also make combat far more reactive as doing a rotation would require slightly more time but you would be at risk to having that rotation interrupted, either directly or by needing to react to an incoming attack.

The only thing I'd even bother bashing then would be a Soul Assault. And like I said, dodge roll would become pretty useless, I like dodge rolls though. You would have to make bash, block and dodge roll way more powerful to make them worth their GCDs.
I have no idea how this would "create more skillful play" either, would just slow it down because you need to be in an even better position than now to start combos, so you don't waste resources... and slower gameplay means less pressure, means less demand on timing and positioning and overall less skillful play. Not to mention you don't have to time your skills around the enemy's dodge rolls anymore because they just don't dodge mostly anyway.

You have fallen into the burst DPS mentality that plagues ESO right now. You mention how having slightly longer animations would require you to position yourself properly and then ask how it would require more skill? You just answered part of your own question. Similarly, certain skill rotations would leave yourself vulnerable to an interrupt, taking damage, or having the target counter. Right now you cannot be interrupted when you animation cancel, and a player doesn't have time to react with a counter skill, so about the only thing you have to worry about is taking damage. This is why everyone has a burst DPS mentality since the only thing they need to concern themselves with is dealing more damage than they take. The only time you have to stop trying to burst is when you are afraid of taking damage from another player's burst.

Anyway, what I proposed would not slow down gameplay by a significant margin but it would provide visual cues for players to use and would also make the game far more strategic in terms of deciding when to attack, defend or counter your opponent. Depending on how well the animations are adjusted you could even remove the GCD since using them too quickly would result in aborting the previous action anyway. And isn't that the entire point of skillful play to reward intellligent play and penalize any mistakes? Currently the only mistake you have to worry about is not having enough burst DPS to kill the target (which is also why Templars (channels) and DKs (DoTs) are struggling in the current meta).

Delgent

I posted this in a different thread recently. The only thing that's changed is we've since cancelled our ESO+ (still stuck until April, blasted 6 month sub). The change in my combat experience from my recent animation cancelling education has turned ESO into just another button masher. It's got me contemplating going back to that other place with Orcs ::shudder::

---

I'm one of those "older" gamers (turning a half a century old this month) who, up until about a month ago, resisted learning animation cancelling because it didn't feel like it was in the spirit of what the devs intended. After reading from different sources that the devs have actually embraced it, I decided it was time for this old dog to learn a new trick.

I found some videos and guides and, in less time than I expected, was able to become relatively proficient at animation cancelling. I was also able to teach this to my similarly aged, though also young at heart, bride who picked it up quicker than I did. So off we went to put our new skill to use.

As we started tearing through same and above our level content, we both had the same feeling...all of the sudden, we were getting bored. Content that was previously a challenge to us, suddenly became surprisingly easy. It was fun at first, but after a few days, became less so. The easy answer is, so don't animation cancel, but it's hard to not do since my muscle memory during combat has now been trained fairly well to do it out of habit.

The end result, we've found we play less and less now since the challenge, and to an extent a part of the combat immersion, isn't there now. I just wish we had learned to do this before our 6 month sub auto-renewed.

I still love ESO, but right now am having a hard time playing much because of it. I don't have an answer for it, it's just the way it is in this house. Sad as it may be, I find Minecraft combat to be more challenging now that I am proficient at animation cancelling in ESO.

Travel Well,
Del

Xeven

@Ezarath @FENGRUSH @LeftyLucy @Gilliamtherogue @Anyone else who supports animation canceling (including myself)...

I use animation canceling extensively and have never had any complaints until recently. The OP did a good job of pointing out my recently discoverd beef with it.

Every "good" stam build is now bash canceling everything to the point where you can't even see what abilities they are using. I'll use reflective scales as an example. As a magsorc when I see wings flap an internal clock starts ticking and I instinctively cast any proced frags as soon as the timer is up. It is extremely potent when timed with a curse, and I don't even have to think about it or look for any other effects.

You can't do that anymore because now you will never actually see a "good" DK flap. You have to watch for the orange aura around the DK to disappear (yes I have adapted to this new playstyle). The problem with this is that the orange aura does not provide any clear feedback about when the ability was used or when it will wear off.

What you end up with is a combat system where all you ever actually see is light attacks and bashes, and I don't think that's what anyone really wants long term. I have not made any firm opinions on how to fix this yet, but as of right now I'm ok with canceling light/heavy attack animations with abilities. I am NOT ok with canceling ability animations with bash/block.

jrkhan

usmcjdking wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

That's silly.

Button mashing huh?

Like one of the above posts, you push the same rotation just faster.

To me its absolutely no different than the turning speed in any FPS game. I don't turn my camera speed any higher, but those players that do have an advantage. They have a faster response speed. They have faster reflexes.

Button mashing is just hitting random buttons or hitting the same button desperately trying to get something to happen. You know, jump kick on mortal kombat.

AC is not button mashing, its faster response speed, if you can't do it then get better eye hand coordination.

It's button mashing. Educated and purposeful button mashing, but still button mashing. No reason to properly position yourself and absolutely no risk associated when you can just "block/dodge" whenever you want to. Faster combat, sure, but still button mashing. Animations exist for balancing purposes.

Competetive games that take themselves seriously will always have an animation cooldown in the event you follow through with it, because it punishes recklessness. Animation cancelling lends to it.

Either way you are talking to a brick wall.

You are arguing semantics.
Since we're doing that, I'll chime in.
Your usage of the term button mashing doesn't match mine, or other definitions I find on the internet.

Button mashing is either:
Hitting buttons as fast as possible.
Hitting buttons randomly.

You aren't hitting buttons as fast as possible. There's timing.

You aren't hitting buttons randomly, you're using specific abilities.

If you are using a different criteria for button mashing please explain.

Another possibility is YOU are hitting buttons as fast as YOU can, and from your perspective it's button mashing.
But that would be like saying that any fighting game ever is button mashing.. Just because that's how some (inexperienced) players play those games.. Does not mean skill and timing are not factors.

jrkhan

Xeven wrote: »

@Ezarath @FENGRUSH @LeftyLucy @Gilliamtherogue @Anyone else who supports animation canceling (including myself)...

I use animation canceling extensively and have never had any complaints until recently. The OP did a good job of pointing out my recently discoverd beef with it.

Every "good" stam build is now bash canceling everything to the point where you can't even see what abilities they are using. I'll use reflective scales as an example. As a magsorc when I see wings flap an internal clock starts ticking and I instinctively cast any proced frags as soon as the timer is up. It is extremely potent when timed with a curse, and I don't even have to think about it or look for any other effects.

You can't do that anymore because now you will never actually see a "good" DK flap. You have to watch for the orange aura around the DK to disappear (yes I have adapted to this new playstyle). The problem with this is that the orange aura does not provide any clear feedback about when the ability was used or when it will wear off.

What you end up with is a combat system where all you ever actually see is light attacks and bashes, and I don't think that's what anyone really wants long term. I have not made any firm opinions on how to fix this yet, but as of right now I'm ok with canceling light/heavy attack animations with abilities. I am NOT ok with canceling ability animations with bash/block.

I agree with your assessment, but disagree with the conclusion.
Animation cancelling, the combat mechanic (immediately using block/bash after an instant abilty) is completely unrelated to the client side animation that plays.
The terminology is unfortunate.
From a combat perspective, abilities are instant. There's really no 'cancelling' in the combat system.
It's incumbent on the ZOS animation team to provide us with animations that convey the game state accurately.
Some form of animation blending, that allows a visual of both wing flap and blocking, would be ideal.
Eliminating the ability to perform those actions is not something I'd agree with.

I think there are two separate issues:
The animation associated with using an instant and then blocking is flawed
The ability to use an instant and then block is undesirable/favors those with low ping and high fps disproportionately.

I can agree with the first.
I can't agree with the second.
I really would hate to have to choose between the damage shield that saves me from the daedroth fire, and the dodge roll to avoid the skull projectile.
I'm not sure people really understand how impossible certain content would be without being able to use block/bash/dodge immediately after an instant, and have both apply.

usmcjdking

jrkhan wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

That's silly.

Button mashing huh?

Like one of the above posts, you push the same rotation just faster.

To me its absolutely no different than the turning speed in any FPS game. I don't turn my camera speed any higher, but those players that do have an advantage. They have a faster response speed. They have faster reflexes.

Button mashing is just hitting random buttons or hitting the same button desperately trying to get something to happen. You know, jump kick on mortal kombat.

AC is not button mashing, its faster response speed, if you can't do it then get better eye hand coordination.

It's button mashing. Educated and purposeful button mashing, but still button mashing. No reason to properly position yourself and absolutely no risk associated when you can just "block/dodge" whenever you want to. Faster combat, sure, but still button mashing. Animations exist for balancing purposes.

Competetive games that take themselves seriously will always have an animation cooldown in the event you follow through with it, because it punishes recklessness. Animation cancelling lends to it.

Either way you are talking to a brick wall.

You are arguing semantics.
Since we're doing that, I'll chime in.
Your usage of the term button mashing doesn't match mine, or other definitions I find on the internet.

Button mashing is either:
Hitting buttons as fast as possible.
Hitting buttons randomly.

You aren't hitting buttons as fast as possible. There's timing.

You aren't hitting buttons randomly, you're using specific abilities.

If you are using a different criteria for button mashing please explain.

Another possibility is YOU are hitting buttons as fast as YOU can, and from your perspective it's button mashing.
But that would be like saying that any fighting game ever is button mashing.. Just because that's how some (inexperienced) players play those games.. Does not mean skill and timing are not factors.

Can't button mash with WOE, Trap Beast and Volcanic Rune. Have to artificially make PVP difficult to have any fun.

Xeven

jrkhan wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

@Ezarath @FENGRUSH @LeftyLucy @Gilliamtherogue @Anyone else who supports animation canceling (including myself)...

I use animation canceling extensively and have never had any complaints until recently. The OP did a good job of pointing out my recently discoverd beef with it.

Every "good" stam build is now bash canceling everything to the point where you can't even see what abilities they are using. I'll use reflective scales as an example. As a magsorc when I see wings flap an internal clock starts ticking and I instinctively cast any proced frags as soon as the timer is up. It is extremely potent when timed with a curse, and I don't even have to think about it or look for any other effects.

You can't do that anymore because now you will never actually see a "good" DK flap. You have to watch for the orange aura around the DK to disappear (yes I have adapted to this new playstyle). The problem with this is that the orange aura does not provide any clear feedback about when the ability was used or when it will wear off.

What you end up with is a combat system where all you ever actually see is light attacks and bashes, and I don't think that's what anyone really wants long term. I have not made any firm opinions on how to fix this yet, but as of right now I'm ok with canceling light/heavy attack animations with abilities. I am NOT ok with canceling ability animations with bash/block.

I agree with your assessment, but disagree with the conclusion.
Animation cancelling, the combat mechanic (immediately using block/bash after an instant abilty) is completely unrelated to the client side animation that plays.
The terminology is unfortunate.
From a combat perspective, abilities are instant. There's really no 'cancelling' in the combat system.
It's incumbent on the ZOS animation team to provide us with animations that convey the game state accurately.
Some form of animation blending, that allows a visual of both wing flap and blocking, would be ideal.
Eliminating the ability to perform those actions is not something I'd agree with.

I think there are two separate issues:
The animation associated with using an instant and then blocking is flawed
The ability to use an instant and then block is undesirable/favors those with low ping and high fps disproportionately.

I can agree with the first.
I can't agree with the second.
I really would hate to have to choose between the damage shield that saves me from the daedroth fire, and the dodge roll to avoid the skull projectile.
I'm not sure people really understand how impossible certain content would be without being able to use block/bash/dodge immediately after an instant, and have both apply.

Yes of course these abilities are instant so canceling the animation does not actually help the ability itself, it does however do more damage within the same GCD (in the case of bash canceling) and denies your opponent any feedback as to what abilities you are actually using (this is the broken bit IMO). We may as well strafe back and forth with no animations at all if this is the direction of optimal PvP.

I dont know how to fix it though. If you disallow bash/block canceling, then you take away some reactive game play, but if you allow players to cancel every single animation with a bash, you also take away reactive game play because nobody can see wtf you are doing.

My instinct is to flip the animation priorities so that bash/block animations are hidden behind ability animations, that way you can still block/bash in the middle of an ability but your opponent will still be aware of the abilities that you are using. In this way you can still bash for that extra bit of DPS, but I can still see wtf you are doing otherwise.

jrkhan

Xeven wrote: »

jrkhan wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

@Ezarath @FENGRUSH @LeftyLucy @Gilliamtherogue @Anyone else who supports animation canceling (including myself)...

I use animation canceling extensively and have never had any complaints until recently. The OP did a good job of pointing out my recently discoverd beef with it.

Every "good" stam build is now bash canceling everything to the point where you can't even see what abilities they are using. I'll use reflective scales as an example. As a magsorc when I see wings flap an internal clock starts ticking and I instinctively cast any proced frags as soon as the timer is up. It is extremely potent when timed with a curse, and I don't even have to think about it or look for any other effects.

You can't do that anymore because now you will never actually see a "good" DK flap. You have to watch for the orange aura around the DK to disappear (yes I have adapted to this new playstyle). The problem with this is that the orange aura does not provide any clear feedback about when the ability was used or when it will wear off.

What you end up with is a combat system where all you ever actually see is light attacks and bashes, and I don't think that's what anyone really wants long term. I have not made any firm opinions on how to fix this yet, but as of right now I'm ok with canceling light/heavy attack animations with abilities. I am NOT ok with canceling ability animations with bash/block.

I agree with your assessment, but disagree with the conclusion.
Animation cancelling, the combat mechanic (immediately using block/bash after an instant abilty) is completely unrelated to the client side animation that plays.
The terminology is unfortunate.
From a combat perspective, abilities are instant. There's really no 'cancelling' in the combat system.
It's incumbent on the ZOS animation team to provide us with animations that convey the game state accurately.
Some form of animation blending, that allows a visual of both wing flap and blocking, would be ideal.
Eliminating the ability to perform those actions is not something I'd agree with.

I think there are two separate issues:
The animation associated with using an instant and then blocking is flawed
The ability to use an instant and then block is undesirable/favors those with low ping and high fps disproportionately.

I can agree with the first.
I can't agree with the second.
I really would hate to have to choose between the damage shield that saves me from the daedroth fire, and the dodge roll to avoid the skull projectile.
I'm not sure people really understand how impossible certain content would be without being able to use block/bash/dodge immediately after an instant, and have both apply.

Yes of course these abilities are instant so canceling the animation does not actually help the ability itself, it does however do more damage within the same GCD (in the case of bash canceling) and denies your opponent any feedback as to what abilities you are actually using (this is the broken bit IMO). We may as well strafe back and forth with no animations at all if this is the direction of optimal PvP.

I dont know how to fix it though. If you disallow bash/block canceling, then you take away some reactive game play, but if you allow players to cancel every single animation with a bash, you also take away reactive game play because nobody can see wtf you are doing.

My instinct is to hide the bash/block animations behind ability animations, that way you can still block/bash in the middle of an ability but your opponent will still be aware of the abilities that you are using. In this way you can still bash for that extra bit of DPS, but I can still see wtf you are doing otherwise.

What you are looking for is better animation blending.
It's an animation problem, not a game mechanic problem.

You can have your cake and eat it too - it just needs to be visually apparent in the scenario you described that the dk cast reflective scales, and the dk is blocking.

That should be possible by blending the scales animation with the block animation - or if that looks like a flailing ragdoll - a custom animation.

Xeven

jrkhan wrote: »

It's an animation problem, not a game mechanic problem.

That's exactly what I've been saying, but I understand your need to clarify it. Everyone complaining about AC in this thread are complaining for the wrong reasons (L2P reasons).

Block already puts a goofy glyph over your character so I don't need to see you holding up your shield or crossing your swords or whatever. If I can't see you bashing behind surprise attack, then I can live with that.

If I can't see you surprise attacking behind bash, then there is a problem. Bash/block should be the lowest priority animation.

Getting extra dps by clipping LAs and Bashing is absolutely fine.

Jura23

Xeven wrote: »

jrkhan wrote: »

It's an animation problem, not a game mechanic problem.

That's exactly what I've been saying, but I understand your need to clarify it. Everyone complaining about AC in this thread are complaining for the wrong reasons (L2P reasons).

Blending would be nice but at this point I dont really care too much. Block already puts a goofy glyph over your character that is not animation related so there is no blending absolutely required there. If I can't see you bashing behind surprise attack, I don't really care.

If I can't see you surprise attacking behind bash, then I care. Bash/block should be the lowest priority animation.

Getting extra dps by clipping LAs and Bashing is absolutely fine.

I've never noticed the glyph on players, only NPCs. Any idea why?

Hiero_Glyph

jrkhan wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

jrkhan wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

@Ezarath @FENGRUSH @LeftyLucy @Gilliamtherogue @Anyone else who supports animation canceling (including myself)...

I use animation canceling extensively and have never had any complaints until recently. The OP did a good job of pointing out my recently discoverd beef with it.

Every "good" stam build is now bash canceling everything to the point where you can't even see what abilities they are using. I'll use reflective scales as an example. As a magsorc when I see wings flap an internal clock starts ticking and I instinctively cast any proced frags as soon as the timer is up. It is extremely potent when timed with a curse, and I don't even have to think about it or look for any other effects.

You can't do that anymore because now you will never actually see a "good" DK flap. You have to watch for the orange aura around the DK to disappear (yes I have adapted to this new playstyle). The problem with this is that the orange aura does not provide any clear feedback about when the ability was used or when it will wear off.

What you end up with is a combat system where all you ever actually see is light attacks and bashes, and I don't think that's what anyone really wants long term. I have not made any firm opinions on how to fix this yet, but as of right now I'm ok with canceling light/heavy attack animations with abilities. I am NOT ok with canceling ability animations with bash/block.

I agree with your assessment, but disagree with the conclusion.
Animation cancelling, the combat mechanic (immediately using block/bash after an instant abilty) is completely unrelated to the client side animation that plays.
The terminology is unfortunate.
From a combat perspective, abilities are instant. There's really no 'cancelling' in the combat system.
It's incumbent on the ZOS animation team to provide us with animations that convey the game state accurately.
Some form of animation blending, that allows a visual of both wing flap and blocking, would be ideal.
Eliminating the ability to perform those actions is not something I'd agree with.

I think there are two separate issues:
The animation associated with using an instant and then blocking is flawed
The ability to use an instant and then block is undesirable/favors those with low ping and high fps disproportionately.

I can agree with the first.
I can't agree with the second.
I really would hate to have to choose between the damage shield that saves me from the daedroth fire, and the dodge roll to avoid the skull projectile.
I'm not sure people really understand how impossible certain content would be without being able to use block/bash/dodge immediately after an instant, and have both apply.

Yes of course these abilities are instant so canceling the animation does not actually help the ability itself, it does however do more damage within the same GCD (in the case of bash canceling) and denies your opponent any feedback as to what abilities you are actually using (this is the broken bit IMO). We may as well strafe back and forth with no animations at all if this is the direction of optimal PvP.

I dont know how to fix it though. If you disallow bash/block canceling, then you take away some reactive game play, but if you allow players to cancel every single animation with a bash, you also take away reactive game play because nobody can see wtf you are doing.

My instinct is to hide the bash/block animations behind ability animations, that way you can still block/bash in the middle of an ability but your opponent will still be aware of the abilities that you are using. In this way you can still bash for that extra bit of DPS, but I can still see wtf you are doing otherwise.

What you are looking for is better animation blending.
It's an animation problem, not a game mechanic problem.

You can have your cake and eat it too - it just needs to be visually apparent in the scenario you described that the dk cast reflective scales, and the dk is blocking.

That should be possible by blending the scales animation with the block animation - or if that looks like a flailing ragdoll - a custom animation.

And blending requires an animation to be apparent in order to transition it from one to the next. If you can clip the entire animation from start to finish then there really isn't a way to blend it naturally. It's no different then weaving a light attack only for the game to play the sound of the hit during the skill or bash animation. The game knows what is happening but simply does not have time to visually represent that information so it just overlays the sound effect during another animation. The only way to fix this is to insert defined portions of each animation that cannot be clipped short. This would also make the GCD far less of an issue so it could potentially be removed as well.

Xeven

Jura23 wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

jrkhan wrote: »

It's an animation problem, not a game mechanic problem.

That's exactly what I've been saying, but I understand your need to clarify it. Everyone complaining about AC in this thread are complaining for the wrong reasons (L2P reasons).

Blending would be nice but at this point I dont really care too much. Block already puts a goofy glyph over your character that is not animation related so there is no blending absolutely required there. If I can't see you bashing behind surprise attack, I don't really care.

If I can't see you surprise attacking behind bash, then I care. Bash/block should be the lowest priority animation.

Getting extra dps by clipping LAs and Bashing is absolutely fine.

I've never noticed the glyph on players, only NPCs. Any idea why?

You know come to think of it they might have ninja'd that out in a recent patch. I'm not home so I cant check.